Wizard/Archivist dual progression PrCs [3.5]

[SilverLeaf167]

What classes can be used to progress both Wizard and Archivist casting? He's not a necromancer, so True Necromancer is out of question (and sucks anyway?). The only other one I know of is Mystic Theurge.

The game begins at 16th level, so I'm Wizard 3/Archivist 3/MT 10. I don't want to use any cheesy early entry tricks, so the build will probably stay like that. I just want to know what to take next level. If I manage to take the dual progression all the way to level 20, I'll have 9th level spells from both classes.

[Kobold-Bard]

Long story short: there are none. Arcane Hierophant is Arcane/Druid, Geomancer can advance both, but only one at a time.

If I might be so bold as to suggest my version of the Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166217).

[SilverLeaf167]

Meh. I don't think homebrew is allowed.
Too bad, then. Should I just alternate between Wizard and Archivist for the rest 4 levels or something? It would get me level 8 spells on both lists.

[Kobold-Bard]

Meh. I don't think homebrew is allowed.
Too bad, then. Should I just alternate between Wizard and Archivist for the rest 4 levels or something? It would get me level 8 spells on both lists.

Well that sucks :smallfrown: :smallwink:

You can either alternate and get Level 16 casting for both at level 20, or once you're out of MT pick one to focus on and get 17/13 casting, so you still get a 9th level spell and using the other side to focus on spells that don't require a high CL/Save DC.

[SilverLeaf167]

Actually, I think it would be "optimal" to just alternate between them. The DM says that tier 1 character shall be played "responsibly", and I think removing 9th levels would actually help with the balance.

[Radar]

Legacy Champion (from Weapons of Legacy) could be used to extend Mystic Theurge.

[SilverLeaf167]

Only core and Completes are automatically approved, so I'll have to ask about Weapons of Legacy. Thanks though.

[Kobold-Bard]

Legacy Champion (from Weapons of Legacy) could be used to extend Mystic Theurge.

Not simultaneously though, it advances casting the same way any other PrC would.


...If you had more than
one class before becoming a legacy champion, you
must decide to which class to add each level for the
purpose of determining class abilities.

...

[sreservoir]

Not simultaneously though, it advances casting the same way any other PrC would.

the class you add to would be mystic theurge.

[SilverLeaf167]

Oh right, forgot about that trick :D
Though I guess the DM might think it's kind of cheesy, or doesn't work by RAW, or something, I dunno.

[sreservoir]

Eh, the best you can get out of it is 16/16 casting anyway, so.

[Kobold-Bard]

the class you add to would be mystic theurge.

Why can L.C do this when any other caster advancing PrC cannot?

[Radar]

Why can L.C do this when any other caster advancing PrC cannot?
Because it's not a caster advancing PrC - it advances any class-level-based abilities of one class of your choice. In short, it prolongs any given PrC in a limited way. Usually used to cheese out Hellfire Warlock or other short PrCs.

[molten_dragon]

Eh, the best you can get out of it is 16/16 casting anyway, so.

How does everyone keep coming up with 16/16. Shouldn't it be 15/15?

Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 2/Archivist 2 is 20 levels.

On each side that's 3+2+10 for level 15 casting.

[ScionoftheVoid]

How does everyone keep coming up with 16/16. Shouldn't it be 15/15?

Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 2/Archivist 2 is 20 levels.

On each side that's 3+2+10 for level 15 casting.

16/16 uses Legacy Champion to get an effective 14 levels of Mystic Theurge.

That would give 17/17, thinking about it. I have no idea for 16/16.

[Kobold-Bard]

How does everyone keep coming up with 16/16. Shouldn't it be 15/15?

Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 2/Archivist 2 is 20 levels.

On each side that's 3+2+10 for level 15 casting.

Because I'm just not too bright and miscounted, that's why.

[sreservoir]

16/16 uses Legacy Champion to get an effective 14 levels of Mystic Theurge.

That would give 17/17, thinking about it. I have no idea for 16/16.

legacy champion doesn't get +features at 1st level.

incidentally, uncanny trickster does exactly the same thing, except it's only 2/3. significantly easier to qualify, though, and skills are fun.

ed: this does require the interpretation that you keep on getting things that are labelled "per level" even after exceeding the bound of the class, of course.

[Vemynal]

I'd say the more powerful option would be to take wizard as far as you can go. Partly because of the extra meta magic feat you'll get after 2 levels (in comparison to if you took archivist to lvl 20) as well as wizards have a larger possible spell list for level 9 spells than the cleric/divine list which tends to have almost all the same spells as the wizard list (per SRD. I donno if you're using spell compendium)

Imo I think it would be more fun to take 8th level spells for both classes, especially if you have spell compendium

[JaronK]

I have to wonder why you went with MT at all instead of just straight Archivist. Archivists get pretty much every Wiz/Sor spell in existence anyway (they all exist as divine spells somewhere), after all. Archivist basically is the MT base class.

But other than wacky entries to Arcane Heirophant, you're pretty stuck.

JaronK

[Kuma Kode]

Mystic Theurge IS pretty terrible. Like JaronK says, you can snag many arcane spells as a strange domain-only divine version, or bard spells if your campaign includes the divine bard variant. Note that this is in no way "All" or even "Most" arcane spells, but quite a few.

You could just ask your DM to let you continue Mystic Theurge past level 10. It's not like its advancement pattern is hard to figure out.

[Divayth Fyr]

You could just ask your DM to let you continue Mystic Theurge past level 10. It's not like its advancement pattern is hard to figure out.

By RAW MT levels 11+ can be taken only at epic levels. Plus they only increase a single caster level at each MT level (arcane caster on odd levels and divine caster on even levels)...

[T.G. Oskar]

Only core and Completes are automatically approved, so I'll have to ask about Weapons of Legacy. Thanks though.

Uncanny Trickster?

Basically the same as Legacy Champion, except 2/3 (not 3/3) and requires skill tricks (though an Archivist/Wizard should have enough skill points for that). And it's on Complete Scoundrel, so it's doable. And it doesn't require you to gain an Item of Legacy (although getting one isn't so bad, so as long as it's custom-made).

That way, you'd get an effective 12 levels of Mystic Theurge; the loss of 1 casting level on both sides is bad enough, but that way you could...I dunno, qualify for Geomancer and advance whichever list you want to 9th level (4 + 12 MT levels = CL 16th, Geomancer would allow 9th level spells on one side). Plus 3 bonus skill tricks and 3 skill tricks that can be done twice (aka, do Swift Concentration twice for more action economy, and any other two you'd like to do more than once). Plus whatever you might get from Geomancer.

[grarrrg]

What classes can be used to progress both Wizard and Archivist casting?

What no one has mentioned Fochlucan Lyrist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) yet?

It has 10/10 Arcane AND Divine progression

Good luck meeting the pre-req's though...

[JaronK]

Note that this is in no way "All" or even "Most" arcane spells, but quite a few.

Of note: There's a variant of Favored Souls in Dragon Magic that gives them any spell off the Wizard/Sorc list of 6th level or lower as a divine spell. There's a variant for Clerics that lets them have any Wizard/Sorc spell of any level, but only within 4 schools (IIRC Necromancy, Abjuration, Conjuration, and Divination but I'm not sure), as divine spells instead of a domain. That alone gives you most of the Wizard/Sorc list. Once you factor in domain lists, Shujenja spells, and the like you can probably get any Wiz/Sorc spell you can imagine. Or if you consider the Hexer PrC, which can be entered by Clerics and gives any Wiz/Sorc spell you like, the entire list is instantly open.

Divine Bard of course gives all bard spells.

The only spells that can't be divine to my knowledge are Greater Harm (Dread Necromancer, and it's a terrible spell) and the Trapsmith spells (which you do get, but only at higher levels). I haven't looked through the Wu Jen list though.

JaronK

[Kuma Kode]

Examples I was unaware of some of those tricks, but they're highly dependent on the DM's allowance of alternate features and whether or not scrolls of these versions would even be available.

Though if such tricks are allowed and the obscurity of the resulting scrolls is waived, that probably covers any arcane spells you would need. I know when I play an Archivist, I can usually get what little arcane I want from domains.

[JaronK]

I was unaware of some of those tricks, but they're highly dependent on the DM's allowance of alternate features and whether or not scrolls of these versions would even be available.

It obviously matters whether the DM even allows such variants to exist... but if you're playing an "all books allowed" format theoretically the divine spells do exist. Scrolls being available is actually only one way to get the spells... so long as they exist at all, a Warlock with Scribe Scroll can make them, and an Archivist can research them with guaranteed success (because the only thing that makes you fail at research is if the DM judges it to not fit existing spells... existing spells are always successfully researched). Of course, research lacks given costs and time, which is an issue. Certainly, an Archivist player is always going to have to grapple with various issues in trying to find the spells they really want... that's sort of the point of the class. But a little research into who might actually have what's wanted can go a long way.

JaronK

[Ansem]

Wizard1/Archivist1/Mystic Theurge 10/Bard1/Fochlucan Lyrist7
Use Sanctum spell for early entry MT and use Ring of Evasion/Shadow template to get into FL, Bard level is needed since no way to get Bardic Knowledge in another way, PrC's offer it but cba to meet requirements for them if they don't offer anything special.

[grarrrg]

turn Unthread!