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Dr.Epic
2011-01-29, 04:15 PM
So I have this idea for a campaign. Basically 300 years before the events of the campaign a druid cast Awaken Animal on a bunch of bears. I'm wondering if the bears all mated with each other would the next generation also be awakened. Yeah, I know baby cubs wouldn't be able to talk but would they have the potential if their parents could? I'm not sure it says anything in the spell's description about two awakened animals reproducing. I'm also not sure if this is touched upon in any book or source material (if so, please tell me). Really I'm asking if this (in your opinion) is stretching something too far.

Crow
2011-01-29, 04:16 PM
If you're the DM, and you want this to happen, then yes it can work like that.

Czin
2011-01-29, 04:23 PM
So I have this idea for a campaign. Basically 300 years before the events of the campaign a druid cast Awaken Animal on a bunch of bears. I'm wondering if the bears all mated with each other would the next generation also be awakened. Yeah, I know baby cubs wouldn't be able to talk but would they have the potential if their parents could? I'm not sure it says anything in the spell's description about two awakened animals reproducing. I'm also not sure if this is touched upon in any book or source material (if so, please tell me). Really I'm asking if this (in your opinion) is stretching something too far.

It all depends on how your setting treats magic. In my setting (or more correctly the setting taken from the massive compilation of documents my now-deceased former DM had) there is no such thing as a non-sapient animal anymore because awakened animals (and plants) have forced their non-awakened counterparts into extinction with their superior intellects.

Coincidentally, logging is incredibly dangerous and is considered to be more or less murder since all the trees can think and act.

dsmiles
2011-01-29, 04:27 PM
Go for it. It would be...Epic...:smallbiggrin:
I better watch out, or the bad pun patrol will get me...

Ravens_cry
2011-01-29, 04:27 PM
Awaken is an Instantaneous effect and so once completed is explicitly non-magical. It makes sense, though it makes catgirls cry, that such an effect would be engraved into the genetic structure of the creature in question. I say go for it. It would be interesting to come up with a culture for such creatures. 'The Right to Arm Bears' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Right_to_Arm_Bears) might give some good ideas.

Hammerhead
2011-01-29, 04:52 PM
It's interesting, so do it.


Also, it would be kind of sad for the Awakened parent if it didn't. Since the spell is all about the warm-fuzzy-talking-animal thing, it would kind of go with the feeling of the spell to make it work.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-29, 04:56 PM
It's interesting, so do it.


Also, it would be kind of sad for the Awakened parent if it didn't. Since the spell is all about the warm-fuzzy-talking-animal thing, it would kind of go with the feeling of the spell to make it work.
It makes me think of the Wolf goddess Moro from Princess Mononoke
Most certainly not warm fuzzy cute.

Greenish
2011-01-29, 05:03 PM
Given that it's magic, it doesn't have to be genetic to be inheritable. Maybe Lamarck was right?

Adumbration
2011-01-29, 05:07 PM
How about this? Of the original pack of bears... one becomes a druid. The bear cubs are born animals, but after a few years (when they've been confirmed to be viable) they are awakened and are fully embraced by the community. Of each successive generation, more cubs are trained to be druids - the process of awakening is a demanding ordeal, and with the growing community, more druids are needed to maintain a fully sentient group.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-29, 05:08 PM
Given that it's magic, it doesn't have to be genetic to be inheritable. Maybe Lamarck was right?
But its not magic, not when its completed. The stone of a wall of stone is not magic it is actual stone. Its creation is indeed magical, but once the magic is completed, no trace remains.
Of course, the way genetics works in D&D it is certainly not the way it does in our world, but obviously heritable traits remain however they work.

Dr.Epic
2011-01-29, 05:38 PM
Go for it. It would be...Epic...:smallbiggrin:
I better watch out, or the bad pun patrol will get me...

Awesome! These bears will be smarter than the average bear!

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-29, 06:06 PM
You can never go wrong with talking bears! :smallamused:

Unless it's like that movie The Golden Compass. That was pretty bad. But actually, the bears were more or less the best part of it.

Volthawk
2011-01-29, 06:15 PM
You can never go wrong with talking bears! :smallamused:

Unless it's like that movie The Golden Compass. That was pretty bad. But actually, the bears were more or less the best part of it.

And besides, Frostburn has a race like that. Urskan - bipedal intelligent polar bears that prefer to wear heavy armour.

nedz
2011-01-29, 06:31 PM
I recommend making the bears small sized and cute and that you call your world Endor :smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2011-01-29, 06:40 PM
I recommend making the bears small sized and cute and that you call your world Endor :smallbiggrin:
Please, go for the original, call the planet Zarathustra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Fuzzy).:smallamused:

Amnestic
2011-01-29, 06:49 PM
You can never go wrong with talking bears! :smallamused:

Unless it's like that movie The Golden Compass. That was pretty bad. But actually, the bears were more or less the best part of it.

It's The Northern Lights! :smallannoyed: Yes, I know the movie was only released under The Golden Compass but to this day I'm not sure why they renamed it when the book was called The Northern Lights. Same deal with Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone in the U.S. What's up with that?


And besides, Frostburn has a race like that. Urskan - bipedal intelligent polar bears that prefer to wear heavy armour.

...and now I need to get Frostburn.

Greenish
2011-01-29, 06:53 PM
It's The Northern Lights! :smallannoyed: Yes, I know the movie was only released under The Golden Compass but to this day I'm not sure why they renamed it when the book was called The Northern Lights. Same deal with Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone in the U.S. What's up with that?The book was called The Golden Compass on US, for reasons hitherto unknown to modern science.

The Potter was reportedly renamed to avoid scaring US readers by having "Philosophy" in the title, though who can know what goes on inside the heads of people who translate books from English to English.


...and now I need to get Frostburn.They're not really a playable race (epic ECL even without class levels). Someone in the homebrew statted out Panzerbj÷rns, but even those weren't really intended for players.

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-29, 07:23 PM
I became aware that The Golden Compass was based on a book series only after I witnessed the awfulness of the movie's ending. Beyond that, I didn't have enough motivation to get any more details on the subject.

Greenish
2011-01-29, 07:26 PM
I became aware that The Golden Compass was based on a book series only after I witnessed the awfulness of the movie's ending. Beyond that, I didn't have enough motivation to get any more details on the subject.Oh, His Dark Materials is splendid, make no mistake. Pullman is one of my favourite authors.

Dr.Epic
2011-01-29, 07:48 PM
You can never go wrong with talking bears! :smallamused:

Unless it's like that movie The Golden Compass. That was pretty bad. But actually, the bears were more or less the best part of it.

Hey, any bear with the voice of Ian McKellen is okay in my book.


I recommend making the bears small sized and cute and that you call your world Endor :smallbiggrin:

I'd rather have the Navi and I hate James Cameron's Avatar.

dsmiles
2011-01-29, 07:50 PM
You could make them small and cuddly, and have them sing "Teddy Bears' Picnic." :smalltongue:

Dimers
2011-01-29, 11:00 PM
Really I'm asking if this (in your opinion) is stretching something too far.

Opinion? I think the change is to the target's mind, not its DNA. But I wouldn't say it's "stretching too far" to be a DM and rule that it's heritable. It's only a little stretch about a gray-area topic.

LOTRfan
2011-01-29, 11:07 PM
Well, there is (non-D&D) precedent. In Wicked, there are two groups of creatures: animals and Animals. Animals (with an upper case A) are of human intelligence, and it is genetic.

Since the offspring of two awakened animals never was a normal animal, would they be Magical Beasts (Augmented Animals), or simply Magical Beasts (with all the benefits of the type)?

Czin
2011-01-29, 11:08 PM
I wonder, if all the plants and animals were awakened, would walking on the grass be considered attempted mass murder/torture?

Ravens_cry
2011-01-29, 11:14 PM
Opinion? I think the change is to the target's mind, not its DNA. But I wouldn't say it's "stretching too far" to be a DM and rule that it's heritable. It's only a little stretch about a gray-area topic.
If it was just 'in its mind', it wouldn't be able to talk as its anatomy normally isn't meant for it.

Czin
2011-01-29, 11:16 PM
If it was just 'in its mind', it wouldn't be able to talk as its anatomy normally isn't meant for it.

Correct, even though your dog is about as smart (generally speaking) as a two year old tot, unlike said tot, he'll never be able to talk because his vocal cords were never designed for that. So it's obvious that Awaken affects the body too, with the most obvious case of this being awakened trees.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-30, 12:42 AM
The Potter was reportedly renamed to avoid scaring US readers by having "Philosophy" in the title, though who can know what goes on inside the heads of people who translate books from English to English.

It was actually because they thought Sorcerer was more magical than Philosopher and without it people wouldn't know it was about Wizards

Coidzor
2011-01-30, 06:04 AM
It all depends on how your setting treats magic. In my setting (or more correctly the setting taken from the massive compilation of documents my now-deceased former DM had) there is no such thing as a non-sapient animal anymore because awakened animals (and plants) have forced their non-awakened counterparts into extinction with their superior intellects.

Coincidentally, logging is incredibly dangerous and is considered to be more or less murder since all the trees can think and act.

Ahhh, Cracked.com's Disney Dystopia. :smallbiggrin:


I wonder, if all the plants and animals were awakened, would walking on the grass be considered attempted mass murder/torture?

Grass would be genocided as a matter of course to cut down on the annoying voices driving everyone mad.


You could make them small and cuddly, and have them sing "Teddy Bears' Picnic." :smalltongue:

This is D&D were talking here, not Call of Cthulhu! :smalleek:


Given that it's magic, it doesn't have to be genetic to be inheritable. Maybe Lamarck was right?

Why would that matter either way? Would we have to worry about whether the animals were getting it on in a naturally occurring Anti Magic Field when they got knocked up? or when they were born?


They're not really a playable race (epic ECL even without class levels). Someone in the homebrew statted out Panzerbj÷rns, but even those weren't really intended for players.

They're just crying out for HD based progression of racial armor soul stuff.

Edit: Me, I say, whatever and don't care one way or the other. I'd probably do so but then, Czin makes me think that taking it too far would result in genocide being necessary for society to function. Which is just kinda squicky.

Set
2011-01-30, 07:19 AM
How about this? Of the original pack of bears... one becomes a druid. The bear cubs are born animals, but after a few years (when they've been confirmed to be viable) they are awakened and are fully embraced by the community. Of each successive generation, more cubs are trained to be druids - the process of awakening is a demanding ordeal, and with the growing community, more druids are needed to maintain a fully sentient group.

The bear druids can even cheat. Spell research is an option, and drastically limiting the nature of a spell can reduce it's spell level. Perhaps the nature goddess / bear god / whomever has allowed the bear-druids to research a version of Awaken that only works on bears, and takes a week to cast, and only works on a bear whose parents were also Awakened or something. With all those restrictions in place, the spell could be 3rd level or so.

Or maybe it's just a property of the area. The original caster didn't just awaken some bears, he sacrificed all of his power in the last moment of his long life to imbue the surrounding area with a permanant Awaken Bears effect, so that any bear born within the sacred cave (where he died) is automatically awakened. Pregnant bears who, for whatever reason, can't make it to the cave, have to petition the druid-bear elders to awaken their cubs the old fashioned way, via spell.

Bear Nation will be pissed if some ancient enemy threatens, defiles or destroys their special sacred cave... Adventure seed!

Amnestic
2011-01-30, 08:10 AM
I became aware that The Golden Compass was based on a book series only after I witnessed the awfulness of the movie's ending. Beyond that, I didn't have enough motivation to get any more details on the subject.

The novel (The Northern Lights. Dammit U.S.!) and its two sequels are pretty good actually. A lot more enjoyable than the film adaptation. You should probably check it out, along with (complete tangent...) the Bartimaeus Trilogy by Jonathan Stroud. Fun little reads.


It was actually because they thought Sorcerer was more magical than Philosopher and without it people wouldn't know it was about Wizards

Psh. Everyone knows Sorcerers and Wizards are totally different. Also, doesn't that change imply that they have no idea about the legends behind the Philosopher's Stone, or assumes that Americans in general do not?



They're not really a playable race (epic ECL even without class levels). Someone in the homebrew statted out Panzerbj÷rns, but even those weren't really intended for players.

Curses. Quick Robin, to the Homebrew Mobile (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12eY25Wbbwg&feature=related)!

Yora
2011-01-30, 08:16 AM
If you're the DM, and you want this to happen, then yes it can work like that.
I love you!

There are still dms who go beyond the crunch in D&D.

lightningcat
2011-02-03, 01:04 AM
One of the playable races for my game is Gryphons, which are awakened griffons. A small group was awakened long ago, and they have been spreading ever since. The chicks born of two gryphons are fully intelligent, as are those born of a gryphon and a griffon. This is rarely done for reasons I'll leave to you to imagine. And many of the gryphons work to awaken their lesser brethren, with some difficulty due to the RHD of the gryphon slowing their spellcasting abilities, and the high level of the version of awaken needed to work on magical beasts.

I never expanded this to other creatures, but the same system could work. Or possibly the nature of the higher level spell could have created the difference.

As an aside, I didn't really care for His Dark Materials, although I only read the Golden Compass.

AtomicKitKat
2011-02-03, 09:39 AM
Didn't BoED have that Ursinal celestial or something? Think they were slightly lower RHD than the ones in Frostburn, but could be mistaken.

dsmiles
2011-02-03, 09:40 AM
Dr. E, how about an update on how this is working out for you?

AtomicKitKat
2011-02-03, 11:14 AM
Ok, so the Urskan was the more playable one. Exactly half the RHD and Level Adjustment.

Zaydos
2011-02-03, 11:25 AM
I wonder, if all the plants and animals were awakened, would walking on the grass be considered attempted mass murder/torture?

No. Because Awaken only works on animals and trees (you can't awaken a bush, shrub, herb, or grass). Although how you define tree matters as there are several ways to do so.



Psh. Everyone knows Sorcerers and Wizards are totally different. Also, doesn't that change imply that they have no idea about the legends behind the Philosopher's Stone, or assumes that Americans in general do not?


Outside geeks I wouldn't be surprised. I've known too many people who hadn't, and think Rowling is the most original person ever for making up so many rich and interesting things like the sorcerer stone, basilisks, and hippogrifs*.

* I am not saying Rowling was not original or a gifted writer, quite contrary I enjoyed the books and think that they required a gifted writer to create, but many of the elements from them, and most of them I've heard praised as original, were pulled from myth and folk lore.