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Muz
2011-01-29, 05:28 PM
Quick question on magic resistance: Would a red dragon's magic resistance come into play if it's shot with a magic Arrow of Red Dragon Slaying?

2nd edition, specifically, but...maybe that's not so important.

dsmiles
2011-01-29, 05:29 PM
IIRC, AD&D magic resistance only affects spell and spell effects, not magic weapons.

Muz
2011-01-29, 05:37 PM
IIRC, AD&D magic resistance only affects spell and spell effects, not magic weapons.

True. The sticky part is that it's not simply an arrow +3, but an arrow that has a magical (possibly spell-like) effect of instantly killing the dragon. So it feels like a grey area.

Two (possibly contradictory) bits from the DMG:
"For a magical effect to have any chance of success, the magic resistance must be overcome."

"Magic resistance enables a creature to ignore the effects of spells and spell-like powers. It does not protect the creature from magical weapon attacks..."

(I suspect I may have been too generous in allowing a party to get their hands on an arrow of that nature, but oh well. I want to at least make sure I do things right when they use it.) :smallsmile:

Lurkmoar
2011-01-29, 05:50 PM
The dragon would still have a saving throw if I'm not mistaken.

Did I just completely miss the point?

I never applied Magic Resistance to items, only spells or spell like effects.

Zombimode
2011-01-29, 05:53 PM
They are not contradictory.

The second one says "It does not protect the creature from magical weapon attacks...". That is an attack with a magic weapon. MR does not prevent in any way a strike with a magic sword.

The first one says "For a magical effect to have any chance of success, the magic resistance must be overcome."

The slaying effect of this type of arrow is obviously a magical effect and thus will be hindered by MR.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Lurkmoar
2011-01-29, 05:56 PM
From the PHB of 2nd Edition, page 102:


Effects of Magic Resistance:

Magic resistance enables a creature to ignore the effects of spells and spell-like powers. It does not protect the creature from magical weapon attacks or from natural forces that may be a direct or accidental result of a spell.

J.Gellert
2011-01-29, 06:14 PM
I would let Magic Resistance apply. What if it was more straightforward situation, like a sword with a paralysis effect? Why would that work, when a spell wouldn't?

Muz
2011-01-29, 06:26 PM
I would let Magic Resistance apply. What if it was more straightforward situation, like a sword with a paralysis effect? Why would that work, when a spell wouldn't?

Who would know better than Firkraag? :smallbiggrin:

BobVosh
2011-01-29, 06:27 PM
Ya, MR doesn't apply. You just need to make a save vs death I believe. And most dragons have 70+ on that IIRC.

Premier
2011-01-29, 06:48 PM
I'd say the arrow works just fine. The book says that MR must be "overcome". "Being a type of effect that MR doesn't protect against" (as described by the other quote) is a certain type of overcoming.

But I reckon you'd be better off posting this in the appropriate sub-forum at Dragonsfoot.

J.Gellert
2011-01-29, 06:50 PM
Who would know better than Firkraag? :smallbiggrin:

I think weapons with specials like the Celestial Fury did ignore Magic Resistance in Baldur's Gate, however :smalltongue: Not 100% sure, though.
:redface:

SimperingToad
2011-01-29, 07:58 PM
No. Magic Resistance does not apply. There is no spell or ability resembling a spell being cast, such as a wand does or a creature which can throw lightning bolts as a natural ability. The slaying feature is as much a 'spell' as a +2 bonus. So, if MR applies to the slaying aspect, it follows that MR must apply to the magic bonus as well.

MR applies to a lightning bolt being 'cast' from a sword, but not something like extra fire damage if a flametongue strikes a creature.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-29, 08:01 PM
Without any experience in the balancing of 2Ed, my gut reaction would be to say that the arrow works by default, because it's an Arrow of Red Dragon Slaying. It'd be silly if a weapon so specifically designed to kill a certain type of creature that its name is exactly its function could be shrugged off due to an innate defensive quality of the creature in question.

MeeposFire
2011-01-30, 03:04 AM
Ya, MR doesn't apply. You just need to make a save vs death I believe. And most dragons have 70+ on that IIRC.

I think you mean that it saves on a 2 or better. Still that is a 5% chance of killing it on a hit.

And no MR does not apply. It is not a spell or spell effect. It is magic which is different. Something can be magical and not a spell or spell effect. This is one of those.

Mark Hall
2011-01-31, 07:01 PM
Without any experience in the balancing of 2Ed, my gut reaction would be to say that the arrow works by default, because it's an Arrow of Red Dragon Slaying. It'd be silly if a weapon so specifically designed to kill a certain type of creature that its name is exactly its function could be shrugged off due to an innate defensive quality of the creature in question.

I have experience with 2e, and I back up that position. Not only does it avoid the whole "My sword bounced off his magic resistance" problem but... yeah. It's designed to KILL red dragons.

ericgrau
2011-01-31, 09:59 PM
Also has precedence in A Hobbit's Tale, where D&D hobbits halflings come from in part. At the same time stories show spells bouncing off of dragons. And the dragon still gets a save like everything else right?

Lapak
2011-01-31, 10:11 PM
I would let Magic Resistance apply. What if it was more straightforward situation, like a sword with a paralysis effect? Why would that work, when a spell wouldn't?People have already pointed out that it should for game-related reasons. As far as in-game reasoning goes, perhaps magic resistance can't protect someone against something that's already within their body - potions, bits of metal that are stuck right through your skin, and so on. That's not all that unreasonable.

Muz
2011-01-31, 10:29 PM
Thanks for the input! I wound up going with no magic resistance, no save vs. death. I'd have felt like I was pulling the rug out from under the players otherwise, since I didn't start pondering it until they were right about to fight it.

If you're curious, the arrow was fired and failed to penetrate AC the first time. (Archer rolled badly.) The arrow bounced off (but managed to survive the impact), and fell down a 150-foot pit leading down to the lower level of the dragon's lair and landed in a big pool of water right below the pit. They continued to fight it for the next six rounds while someone's familiar flew down after the arrow. By the time the familiar retrieved the arrow, one fighter had been stunned from being smashed against the lair wall with a tail swipe, then roasted to death with fire breath, and the party's priest (also stunned by a different tail-swipe) was swept over the edge of the pit. He fell, bounced off the slanting pit wall, landed in the pool in full armor, and drowned.

The second firing of the arrow worked. 5/7ths of the party survived. :smallwink:

Lurkmoar
2011-01-31, 10:57 PM
Sweet! Nothing like a victory where you pull through by the skin of their teeth. Teeth that belong to someone else mind you. :smallwink:

Mark Hall
2011-02-01, 11:09 AM
<snip>

The second firing of the arrow worked. 5/7ths of the party survived. :smallwink:

Awesome! A victory like that sticks with people... and a great use of the familiar!