I would like to punch Haley's dad right now.

[Ridureyu]

"Oh, you stupid little daughter of mine, don't you see? I'm smart and you're stupid, I'm right and you're wrong, even though every plan of mine has failed and yours have been succeeding. I am the parent, so therefore I am right. If my plan fails, it's yoru fault, and if your plan succeeds, it's mine."

I don't want to kill him, just slap some sense into him for a few hours.

[raisethearmy]

Agreed. I want to punch her Uncle as well.

[Ridureyu]

The uncle's not being nearly as smarmy about it.

Speaking as an adult, few things are as bad as your parents jumping into something that you are an expert in, botching it up completely, and then blaming you for it while going on and on about their expertise in a subject they had never even thought of before.


(That said, I have a great relationship with my parents.)

[raisethearmy]

True enough about the uncle. I do think that Roy had an appropriate response though.

Oh, and speaking as a teen I know all about parents jumping in to something they don't understand. (Although, that might come from a teenage perception of invulnerability.)

[Zevox]

I suspect the problem is more that he is simply paranoid as hell, something we already had hinted at before ("You can't trust anyone but family, pumpkin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html).").

Zevox

[King of Nowhere]

I too think that he's not jumping into the business of his daugther, he's just externating his paranoia. He thinks that everyone outside family cannot be trusted, and expect the worst out of them.
I'm starting to wonder how he could ever try to raise some resistance without trusting anyone of his members.

[ThePhantasm]

Well, thanks for letting us know your emotional response to the comic... even though there is a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185282) for that... I mean what are we even supposed to talk about in this thread? Yes, I'd like to punch him? No, I'd like to hug him? I'm a little confused.

Anyhow, the uncle already got punched, so the paranoia punching is goin' down in the comic, if you haven't noticed.

[Dr.Epic]

Yes, you know someone's become a main character in this story when half the forum thinks they're a magnificent bastard and the other half thinks they're a jerk.

[Kish]

Yes, you know someone's become a main character in this story when half the forum thinks they're a magnificent bastard and the other half thinks they're a jerk.
I think you used four extraneous words.

Your statement will be more accurate if you elide the words "become a main character."

[Warren Dew]

Anyhow, the uncle already got punched, so the paranoia punching is goin' down in the comic, if you haven't noticed.
I think the original poster is more concerned about Ian's patronizing attitude than about his paranoia.

Of course, the word "patronizing" derives ultimately from "acting like a father", so perhaps this is only to be expected.

[LuckyHood]

I would really love for Belkar to get involved in this situation. :smallamused:

[Morquard]

Agreed, some UNARMED SNEAK ATTACK SMACK TO THE HEAD FROM BEHIND can solve more parent/daughter issues than you imagine :)

Ok and perhaps create a bunch of completely new ones...

[Swordpriest]

From Haley's attitude and comments, it isn't the first time he's been this obtuse, either. :smallwink:

[Heksefatter]

To be fair, with Elan being Tarquin's son with parades in his honour and all, some level of paranoia is quite understandable.

[Alagaesian]

To be fair, with Elan being Tarquin's son with parades in his honour and all, some level of paranoia is quite understandable.

Yes, but what is not understandable is that Ian thinks his daughter wouldn't be competent enough to recognize a spy planted in her own party. In reality, Haley's rolled some pretty good Sense Motive checks. (The Linear Guild, for example.)

[MoonCat]

He's super aggravating and patronizing towards his own daughter without the paranoia in play. He interrupts her, never believes her, pretends to be an expert... The whole thing about Elan in the thread side is an aside to how he treats his daughter on a regular basis.

[factotum]

Yes, but what is not understandable is that Ian thinks his daughter wouldn't be competent enough to recognize a spy planted in her own party. In reality, Haley's rolled some pretty good Sense Motive checks. (The Linear Guild, for example.)

And of course Ian was there to see those things! Oops, actually, no he wasn't now I come to think about it... :smallconfused:

At the time Ian left Haley was still at the Thieves' Guild and had never gone adventuring--she was probably relatively low level. She's learned a LOT in the year or two since then, but her father hasn't seen any of that! He probably still considers her to be an inexperienced child compared to him.

[Antacid]

Yes, but what is not understandable is that Ian thinks his daughter wouldn't be competent enough to recognize a spy planted in her own party.He probably still thinks of Haley as his "little girl". It's pretty common amoungst parents with adult children even outside of fantasy settings. :smallbiggrin:

[Themrys]

He probably still thinks of Haley as his "little girl". It's pretty common amoungst parents with adult children even outside of fantasy settings. :smallbiggrin:

That's probably the reason why he's so paranoid.
He has no problem to believe that Haley tricked Roy and Belkar to work for her - they aren't a danger to his little "kitten".
Elan, however...apart from being Tarquins most beloved son, his stupidity is hard to believe and is probably mistaken for feigned stupidity by Ian.

[theNater]

He's super aggravating and patronizing towards his own daughter without the paranoia in play. He interrupts her, never believes her, pretends to be an expert... The whole thing about Elan in the thread side is an aside to how he treats his daughter on a regular basis.
Wait, what? We've seen the two of them interact as adults in four comics so far.

In #768, a hug is the extent of their interaction.

In #769, Roy interrupts Haley twice, and it's Roy that Ian doesn't believe. Ian's complements seem to me to be genuine; I read his long-winded discussion of letting the "stuffed shirts" think they're in charge as being for the audience, since Haley would already know what she did and why.

In #770, he spends about half of his time being embarrassed about having been outmaneuvered, and half of his time trying to reassure his daughter that he's okay. His claim to being a master thief can certainly be justified by his old position in the Thieves' Guild and his repeated ability to get out of a prison that Haley had trouble getting into. He actually is an expert, despite his current predicament.

In #771, Ian begins interrupting and disbelieving Haley, but that's after Elan is on the scene. Given that he believes Elan to be part of a greater plot by the guy who's been outmaneuvering him for years, we can't take his behavior there as typical.

[ThePhantasm]

Wait, what? We've seen the two of them interact as adults in four comics so far.

In #768, a hug is the extent of their interaction.

In #769, Roy interrupts Haley twice, and it's Roy that Ian doesn't believe. Ian's complements seem to me to be genuine; I read his long-winded discussion of letting the "stuffed shirts" think they're in charge as being for the audience, since Haley would already know what she did and why.

In #770, he spends about half of his time being embarrassed about having been outmaneuvered, and half of his time trying to reassure his daughter that he's okay. His claim to being a master thief can certainly be justified by his old position in the Thieves' Guild and his repeated ability to get out of a prison that Haley had trouble getting into. He actually is an expert, despite his current predicament.

In #771, Ian begins interrupting and disbelieving Haley, but that's after Elan is on the scene. Given that he believes Elan to be part of a greater plot by the guy who's been outmaneuvering him for years, we can't take his behavior there as typical.

You are right to point out the small number of strips we've seen these characters in.

Folks seem to be angry at Ian for jumping to conclusions and not listening... but they are quite jumping to conclusions themselves without seeing how this plays out. A little ironic.

[Occasional Sage]

Yes, but what is not understandable is that Ian thinks his daughter wouldn't be competent enough to recognize a spy planted in her own party. In reality, Haley's rolled some pretty good Sense Motive checks. (The Linear Guild, for example.)

And he'd know that because...?

EDIT: Interesting. That was a 12-hour delay from hitting Submit to the posting.

[Gamgee]

Good god he's annoying. Need's more than just a slap. This desert arc of the story has just gotten worse. It's been pretty bland so far, but now it's the kind of bland that makes you want to throttle your neck so you don't have to see it.

[G-Man Graves]

Good god he's annoying. Need's more than just a slap. This desert arc of the story has just gotten worse. It's been pretty bland so far, but now it's the kind of bland that makes you want to throttle your neck so you don't have to see it.

Thank you for venting while pointing out no flaws besides "He's annoying, the whole strip sucks now." We'll be sure to include your insightful comment in further discussion.

[JonestheSpy]

Wow, I can't believe how people are missing the obvious.

Ian believes your family are the only folks you can really trust - family bonds trump all others. Living in a place like Greysky City (and then in a lawful evil dictatorship) surely reinforces this attitude.

Elan is Tarquin's family. Of course he thinks that it's more likely that Elan was betraying his girlfriend rather than working against his own father.

[G-Man Graves]

I think the main thing people are forgetting is that he tried really hard to get Haley to think the way he did. So when he see's her again, it's easier for him to think he's doing things the way he would as opposed to having begun to do things in a far less secure way.

[MoonCat]

I think people are taking it as "I hate Ian", he's been fine for every strip except for this one, and that's because he's in the presence of the son of his worst enemy. I at least don't hate him, but would like to slap some sense into his paranoid brain.

[immblueversion]

Elan is Tarquin's family. Of course he thinks that it's more likely that Elan was betraying his girlfriend rather than working against his own father.

He doesn't even realize Haley's relationship with Elan yet, but if it does, things are bound to get ugly. If this predicament is to be sorted out, something drastic is going to have to be done and/or said in order to shift his mindset in the right direction. But even if he does come to understand the truth, does that necessarily mean he'll accept it?

[Alagaesian]

He doesn't even realize Haley's relationship with Elan yet, but if it does, things are bound to get ugly. If this predicament is to be sorted out, something drastic is going to have to be done and/or said in order to shift his mindset in the right direction. But even if he does come to understand the truth, does that necessarily mean he'll accept it?
I personally think he already expects that Elan has been wooing Haley and tricked her into falling in love with him. Why else would she not notice an obvious spy sitting in plain sight, and then argue with her own father about him?

Though, I'm thinking that Ian is giving himself too much credit...as if Tarquin would to send his own son away for years on some plan to gather information on Ian. The only reason they're even bothering to chase him down is probably that one of his relatives will eventually come in with a huge pile of gold to buy him back. If his resistance attempts were really so much of a threat to the EOB that he'd want to send his most-loved son on a long-term mission to glean information on them, genre-savvy Tarquin would probably just go ahead and torture him for the information shortly before killing him.

[Dvandemon]

I think people are taking it as "I hate Ian", he's been fine for every strip except for this one, and that's because he's in the presence of the son of his worst enemy. I at least don't hate him, but would like to slap some sense into his paranoid brain.

I think it's the fact that he's paranoid compounded with the dramatic irony that makes it so annoying. It's like when I was a kid and I knew who the bad guy was, but the hero didn't and fell for all his tricks, and I kept yelling, "HE'S THE VILLAIN YOU IDIOTS!".

[Herald Alberich]

Though, I'm thinking that Ian is giving himself too much credit...as if Tarquin would to send his own son away for years on some plan to gather information on Ian.

Good points, but remember that Ian doesn't yet know that Elan has known Haley for years. Nor does he believe the Order of the Stick is here for any reason beyond rescuing him at Haley's direction. As far as he knows, Haley met Elan just the other day and he seduced his way into her plot.

[JonestheSpy]

He doesn't even realize Haley's relationship with Elan yet, but if it does, things are bound to get ugly. If this predicament is to be sorted out, something drastic is going to have to be done and/or said in order to shift his mindset in the right direction. But even if he does come to understand the truth, does that necessarily mean he'll accept it?

Good point, though it depends on whether Ian and Geoff caught that "It was consensual every time" line (Geoff's reaction rather makes me think he did, at least).

I kinda think that when the truth is sorted out, Ian is going to be more upset about Haley being attached to someone as clueless and naive as Elan than who Elan's dad is...

[Themrys]

Good points, but remember that Ian doesn't yet know that Elan has known Haley for years. Nor does he believe the Order of the Stick is here for any reason beyond rescuing him at Haley's direction. As far as he knows, Haley met Elan just the other day and he seduced his way into her plot.

Good point.
The fact that Elan actually looks like he could have seduced Ian's poor little kitten doesn't make anything better. From his point of view, there is an obvious reason why Haley trusts that guy - and it isn't a good reason.

@Jonesthespy:

Sorting that out will take some time. Ian is of the opinion you can only trust family. Which means he wouldn't believe that Elan works against Tarquin without solid proof.
When Elan has proved himself trustworthy...yes, then Ian will probably freak out because Elan is so stupid.

After all, Haley could have easily sneaked into the prison when she hadn't taken Elan with her.

[Tazar]

I honestly think Ian is coming from an understandable position here; he knows that Tarquin is evil and he knows that Elan is Tarquin's son. As such, believing that Elan is using Haley does make sense; while Ian could be much more trusting of his daughter it's understandable that he could think she's being deceived.

[Swordpriest]

Well, it looks like it's moot. He prefers imprisonment by Tarquin to taking a chance. Amazing that he picked rogue as his profession -- a calling that involves taking constant risks of one type or another.

Then again, he doesn't seem to be a very successful rogue .... :smalltongue:

[pendell]

Well, it looks like it's moot. He prefers imprisonment by Tarquin to taking a chance. Amazing that he picked rogue as his profession -- a calling that involves taking constant risks of one type or another.

Then again, he doesn't seem to be a very successful rogue .... :smalltongue:

He's still alive and white-haired , isn't he? In a profession that kills most characters off at level 1?

In Ian's defense, I think he has a certain level of justifiable paranoia.

1) He hasn't seen *any* of Elan's interactions with Haley. For all he knows, they just met and Elan seduced her the way Tarquin seduces his wives.

2) Tarquin is a highly intelligent general, who has been known to play with people's emotions.

3) Ian is right on the money with respect to Nale.

4) Finally, even if Haley is telling the truth and Elan really is simon-pure -- he could very easily be a dupe, and therefore being used unwittingly by Tarquin. Tarquin can make use of a dupe and an idiot just as he can a willing accomplice.

All of these are perfectly excellent reasons for Ian to be skeptical of the whole situation. Reasonable, but I suspect this will result in his death in the arena during the tournament tomorrow.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[immblueversion]

But if there's anything I hate more, it's breaking up loving families. Until some form of reconciliation comes between Haley and Ian, it pains me to wait for the next strip, or to think how long the Giant had planned ahead for these last few comics before he need's another break...

[Scarlet Knight]

At this point, if the plot doesn't demand Ian die in the games, I can see him changing his mind & going with Haley to protect her when Elan (with Tarquin) turns on her ...

[Dvandemon]

I honestly think Ian is coming from an understandable position here; he knows that Tarquin is evil and he knows that Elan is Tarquin's son. As such, believing that Elan is using Haley does make sense; while Ian could be much more trusting of his daughter it's understandable that he could think she's being deceived.

But the problem is that there's a lot of poor communication that isn't helping. And he's also condemning Elan to evil because his father is evil

[G-Man Graves]

Then again, he doesn't seem to be a very successful rogue .... :smalltongue:

We are talking about the same Ian who was a major figure in the thieves guild, to the point that he was in the running for being the next leader? The same one that has survived for years in the arena solely by dodging? That Ian?

[immblueversion]

At this point, if the plot doesn't demand Ian die in the games, I can see him changing his mind & going with Haley to protect her when Elan (with Tarquin) turns on her ...

And why, pray tell, would Elan do that? Unless he actually believes Haley's relationship with her father is more important than with him and does so on purpose?

[ThePhantasm]

At this point, if the plot doesn't demand Ian die in the games, I can see him changing his mind & going with Haley to protect her when Elan (with Tarquin) turns on her ...

I think Scarlet Knight means Ian will do this because this is what he is predicting will happen, not that it will actually happen in the comic.

Although wouldn't that be a TWEEEST! And then Elan kills Belkar! I'm liking this better already! :smallbiggrin:

[MoonCat]

Okay, new strips ought to change people's minds. I want to punch him out of Paranoia Land, out of Stubbornville, and into s omewhere where Haley got herself today. This is what she was like when before she lost the gold.

[IronWilliam]

Haley should explain to her dad that Elan :elan: joined them BEFORE he knew he was Tarquin's son, so he couldn't be a plant.

But punching him would still make me feel better.

[SPoD]

This is what she was like when before she lost the gold.

This is almost certainly the point, to highlight how far Haley has come by contrasting her with someone who thinks like she used to.

I don't feel any desire to punch Ian, I mostly feel sorry for him. His daughter is happy and fulfilled and he can't see it. She's surpassed him, both emotionally and professionally. This is the point in an adult child's life when they start taking care of the parent rather than the other way around, and Ian is resisting it.

[Imgran]

Good points, but remember that Ian doesn't yet know that Elan has known Haley for years. Nor does he believe the Order of the Stick is here for any reason beyond rescuing him at Haley's direction. As far as he knows, Haley met Elan just the other day and he seduced his way into her plot.

I'm using this post as an example of all the "for all Ian knows" posts in this thread.

These posts raise a point that is valid, but only to a certain extent.

What Ian knows matters, but the problem here is that he isn't troubling himself to find anything out. He isn't trying to learn if what he "knows" is fact. He's acting entirely on prejudice -- the literal definition of the word -- rather than taking any effort at all to find out if what's happening is what he thinks is happening. There is no willingness to accept the possibility that he's wrong, and that way lies many gravestones and infinite folly

Ian has to act based on the knowledge he has, sure. But a responsible leader -- heck, any sane man -- would be prepared to admit that they might not know everything and start asking questions at some point rather than coming down from on high with all the answers. That's where the people who want to punch the man are coming from.

[Herald Alberich]

Haley should explain to her dad that Elan :elan: joined them BEFORE he knew he was Tarquin's son, so he couldn't be a plant

Ian would simply say Elan lied to Haley about not knowing his father.

I agree with Imgran, by the by. Ian's conclusions seem reasonable from his perspective. His problem is that he's not willing to expand that perspective. He doesn't trust his daughter to know what she's talking about, despite his insistence that family can always be trusted, and no one else can.

[hobbitkniver]

Yeah, I completely agree. He really just complicates the plan.

[immblueversion]

Until he changes that cold, straight, stubborn face that really makes him look like he thinks he's right, I would very much like to punch it. But I doubt he won't change it, because I'm sure Haley's last words to him cut deep into his heart. No father who adoringly calls his own daughter "Kitten" would be able to keep a straight face like that for long. He may not be convinced he's wrong, but trust me, sooner or later, he'll break...

I don't mean to antagonize him. But he's just one of those guys you either want to kill or begin to like. Or both.

[Alex Warlorn]

This brings up the ultimate question.

Have there been any fathers in Order of the Stick On-line Comic Version shown so far that have NOT been evil (local evil overlord) NOT made deals with the devil (V'), or NOT been a jerk?

Does Parenthood come with mandatory 'advanced jerk pills' ? And not just the regular kind parents normally get either.

[Swordpriest]

This brings up the ultimate question.

Have there been any fathers in Order of the Stick On-line Comic Version shown so far that have NOT been evil (local evil overlord) NOT made deals with the devil (V'), or NOT been a jerk?

Does Parenthood come with mandatory 'advanced jerk pills' ? And not just the regular kind parents normally get either.

Apparently, fathers are jackasses in OotS, whereas mothers are pretty decent, generally speaking. Which doesn't correspond very well at all with my own observations, at least, but I guess OotS differs from reality quite a bit anyway .... :smallwink:

[Ridureyu]

Time to punch him again, but just for the last few panels, in which he basically said, "And if you save the world and evertything in it, I'll deny it becuase you're a worthless disappointment of a daughter!"

Seriously, those two panels are just begging to lead into the "Dwarves in the stable" scene from the last Narnia book.


Also, the writing's been really good in the comic lately. Anybody notice how 772 basically confirmed both sides of this thread's argument? He's both justifiably AND unjustifiably paranoid!

[Heksefatter]

Ok, I'm starting to change my mind here. While I agree that Ian can't be faulted for being (very) iffy about Elan, his current reaction is foolish.

If Elan was Tarquin's loyal son, escaping now would not make things worse. Whatever a loyal son of Tarquin would hope to accomplish by breaking into the cell, has by now already been accomplished. Elan would have identified him by now as a rebel in the jails, and Ian would certainly be put to a gruesome death, as would Geoff and probably everyone else in the cell.

On the other hand, there is a chance (a 100 % one, as we readers happen to know) that Ian's daughter is right. Then, indeed, Ian should grab the chance to flee.

I'm now officially with the punching crowd.

[Themrys]

This brings up the ultimate question.

Have there been any fathers in Order of the Stick On-line Comic Version shown so far that have NOT been evil (local evil overlord) NOT made deals with the devil (V'), or NOT been a jerk?

Does Parenthood come with mandatory 'advanced jerk pills' ? And not just the regular kind parents normally get either.

V's mate seems to be okay, and even if V is male, that doesn't mean hir mate can't be male, too. :smalltongue:

Of all the obviously male fathers we have seen in the online comic, Ian is the best. I wouldn't even call him a jerk. He's paranoid, and he has every reason to be.
I will continue to like him, unless he really stays in prison while the others escape.

Regarding V, s/he did make this deal with the devil to save hir family. And the alternative plan was utter rubbish, it would never have worked. If it comes to bad parenting, being away for so long is much worse.

Edit: Sadly, Ian completely failed to teach his daughter about the dangers of alcohol. I am not that paranoid, but even I never drink alcohol because I know drunk people say all kinds of stupid things.

[Iranon]

Distrust is one thing... but I can't get behind the inflated sense of his own importance. Why would Tarquin go to any length to play silly games with him?

Ineffectual would-be leaders of some not-yet-existing resistance should be a dime a dozen in places like the EoB.

[Nimrod's Son]

Edit: Sadly, Ian completely failed to teach his daughter about the dangers of alcohol. I am not that paranoid, but even I never drink alcohol because I know drunk people say all kinds of stupid things.
:smallconfused:

That's not a reason not to drink alcohol. Most people say all kinds of stupid things, drunk or not. And we've only seen Haley drunk once in two in-comic years. How is that a "failing" of Ian's? More to the point, how is it relevant at all?

[Themrys]

:smallconfused:

That's not a reason not to drink alcohol. Most people say all kinds of stupid things, drunk or not. And we've only seen Haley drunk once in two in-comic years. How is that a "failing" of Ian's? More to the point, how is it relevant at all?

This IS a reason not to drink alcohol. It is one of the reasons I don't drink alcohol.
And getting drunk in front of someone as evil and dangerous as Tarquin is stupid...say what you want, Haley wouldn't have said all this nonsense about Thor had she been sober.

This shows how Ian succeeded in teaching Haley the importance of being paranoid without teaching her how to be paranoid in the right situations.
Fits in nicely with his refusal to be freed from prison, even though this would make everything worse if Elan was working for Tarquin.

[Nimrod's Son]

And getting drunk in front of someone as evil and dangerous as Tarquin is stupid...say what you want, Haley wouldn't have said all this nonsense about Thor had she been sober.
I hope you will note that Haley didn't let anything slip to Tarquin that she wanted to keep to herself, so that's a very strange argument. Besides excitably saying a few nonsensical things, and waking up with a killer hangover, what does Haley have to regret about that incident?


This shows how Ian succeeded in teaching Haley the importance of being paranoid without teaching her how to be paranoid in the right situations.
I've drunk PLENTY of alcohol in my time, but I have never in my life, not even once, said anything that I wanted to keep secret to anyone. Being drunk loosens inhibitions, sure, but it's not a "dangerous" state to be in (unless you're doing it habitually or to ridiculous excess, of course, but that's a different kind of danger altogether). Your lack of experience with the stuff is colouring your judgment there, I'm afraid. Alcohol might make you say things you wouldn't normally have the nerve to say... it might even make you say things you don't mean. But it's not Truth Serum. :smallwink:

If anything, I would have thought that Ian would teach her to handle her drink so as to avoid that possiblity, not to avoid alcohol altogether.

[Scarlet Knight]

I've drunk PLENTY of alcohol in my time, but I have never in my life, not even once, said anything that I wanted to keep secret to anyone. Being drunk loosens inhibitions, sure, but it's not a "dangerous" state to be in (unless you're doing it habitually or to ridiculous excess, of course, but that's a different kind of danger altogether). Your lack of experience with the stuff is colouring your judgment there, I'm afraid. Alcohol might make you say things you wouldn't normally have the nerve to say... it might even make you say things you don't mean. But it's not Truth Serum. :smallwink:

If anything, I would have thought that Ian would teach her to handle her drink so as to avoid that possiblity, not to avoid alcohol altogether.

I have to disagree. The loosening of inhibitions is exactly the situation where you give away secrets because your judgement is impaired. Ever been to an office party where things best left unsaid were said?

As the Romans said: In Vino Veritas

[Hydro]

His decision to stay in prison strikes me as one of the weaker points in the current plot. It does not make any sense (not even "skeleton logic that I use to justify my gut reaction" sense) to believe that someone who already has you locked securely in a dungeon cell would let you out as part of some scheme to trap you. If Tarquin knew or cared who Ian was, he could do whatever it is he wanted already (including using torture or divinations to root out the rest of Ian's family, if that's what he's worried about).

I mean, I've gotten used to the idea that some of these characters have weird or exaggerated views, which can cause them to make strange but dramatically-appropriate decisions. But I just can't buy this one.

I do still enjoy Ian as a character, and hope that he will share the stage with Tarquin at some point in the future. But that would be way more cool and exciting if I really thought they were both scheming masterminds, rather than one being a scheming mastermind and the other being a senile old goofball.

[MoonCat]

He said he wouldn't leave with Elan because he thought it was a trap.

[G-Man Graves]

Time to punch him again, but just for the last few panels, in which he basically said, "And if you save the world and evertything in it, I'll deny it becuase you're a worthless disappointment of a daughter!"

Seriously, those two panels are just begging to lead into the "Dwarves in the stable" scene from the last Narnia book.


Also, the writing's been really good in the comic lately. Anybody notice how 772 basically confirmed both sides of this thread's argument? He's both justifiably AND unjustifiably paranoid!

Oh, so you missed the point again? Not surprising, you misread him in your first post, too. He never said anything about denying his daughter's successes, if any. He is just sure, from his life experience as a paranoid man, overly used to betrayal, that Haley is being tricked by a particularly cunning opponent. Nothing to the effect of "worthless disappointment" were mentioned. I mean, if you want to arbitrarily hate Ian, fine, but please don't accuse him of things he never said.

[Shale]

He seems to be the type who will never, ever consider the possibility that he's wrong until reality smacks him in the face, and then he won't learn from the experience. He thinks Elan is a traitor, so he's not going anywhere with Elan, even if the alternative is to stay in prison.

Of course, it doesn't help that Haley avoided telling him any of the concrete evidence that Elan isn't working with his father, and instead went purely for the "I love him, you just don't understand" route.

[Haggis]

The thing is getting out isn't a problem. He escaped dozens of times. Staying out is the problem. Every time he escaped he been recaptured right away.

In his mind right now he stuck in jail, but all they have is a minor criminal with a tendency to make a run for it. He goes with elan and he be a revolutionary and executed right away.

Is he paranoid? Yes, he knows it. But in his mind just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

[Faramir]

And it makes even more sense if he currently has an escape plan in place (which he probably does) which he feels gives a better chance of success than walking out with Tarquin's son.

[King of Nowhere]

I don't think Ian has been a bad parent at all.
It appears that he had a good relation with his daugther - if you reread the last strips, you'll notice that he started being in conflict only after haley sided with elan, whom he identifies as an enemy. Before that, it appeared the two of them went along well. And if Haley was willing to risk 200k gp back in the old times when she was very greedy, it means she really loved her father.

The only failing of ian appears to have grown his daugther excessively paranoid, but he was an important figure in the thieve's guild of Greysky. That paranoia probably saved Haley's life several times in her young age, and became a problem only when she left the city and finally found someone she could - should - trust.

[Hydro]

I get that he thinks Elan is an evil guy. The problem is, even if Elan is an evil guy, Ian's actions still don't make sense. I can't conceive of a situation, no matter how far-flung, in which leaving the cell right now results in him being worse off than he was before. If someone is out to get you, and they have you in a prison that you can't (ultimately) escape from, you're already as screwed as you could possibly be.

If Elan is a badguy and Haley is walking into a trap, wouldn't Ian want to be there to help her, or to at least take advantage of the situation somehow?

[MoonCat]

I get that he thinks Elan is an evil guy. The problem is, even if Elan is an evil guy, Ian's actions still don't make sense. I can't conceive of a situation, no matter how far-flung, in which leaving the cell right now results in him being worse off than he was before. If someone is out to get you, and they have you in a prison that you can't (ultimately) escape from, you're already as screwed as you could possibly be.

If Elan is a badguy and Haley is walking into a trap, wouldn't Ian want to be there to help her, or to at least take advantage of the situation somehow?

He thinks it's a trap that would land him back in prison, possibly in the arena.

[Hydro]

And it makes even more sense if he currently has an escape plan in place (which he probably does) which he feels gives a better chance of success than walking out with Tarquin's son.

I guess that could be it, if it's a case where escaping and then being thrown back in jail now would reduces his chances of being able to escape later? And the 'later' plan has a better chance of success than anything which he might improvise to slip out of Elan's company?

Maybe that's it. But it still seems weak to me, because if Tarquin isn't out to get him then there's no reason to be suspicious, and if Tarquin IS out to get him then it's hard to imagine an existing escape plan working (after years and years of failure).

[Themrys]

If Elan is a badguy and Haley is walking into a trap, wouldn't Ian want to be there to help her, or to at least take advantage of the situation somehow?

I bet he will give in and come with them when he realizes Haley isn't going to give in.


Tarquin seems to be the sort of lawful evil guy who can bend all laws so they don't get in his way. I can imagine no trap he could set for Ian to achieve something he couldn't just do.
I think Ian is solely being stubborn in order to get Haley to give in and "admit" Elan is evil.

[Herald Alberich]

He seems to be the type who will never, ever consider the possibility that he's wrong until reality smacks him in the face, and then he won't learn from the experience. He thinks Elan is a traitor, so he's not going anywhere with Elan, even if the alternative is to stay in prison.

Of course, it doesn't help that Haley avoided telling him any of the concrete evidence that Elan isn't working with his father, and instead went purely for the "I love him, you just don't understand" route.

Is there any evidence Haley could tell him that he'd believe? "He grew up with his mother and met his father two days ago." "How do YOU know?"

[MoonCat]

Is there any evidence Haley could tell him that he'd believe? "He grew up with his mother and met his father two days ago." "How do YOU know?"

This might be of help...


No dad, you don't understand. Elan is working with us to defeat an evil lich who's out to conquer the world!

Ah, so until you got here he was helping take down potential rivals for Tarquin.

No, no, it was Roy who wanted to defeat Xykon.

Hmm, I'll bet that as soon as he met Roy and found out about Xykon Elan helped put together an adventuring party to take out this Xykon, didn't he?

Yes, but, he didn't even know about Tarquin until we got here!

How do you know that?

He told me so himself!

Uh huh.

Well, I don't like to say this, but Elan really isn't smart enough to carry out a plot like this. Why in the time I've know him <give any one of hundreds of examples>.

Oh Kitten, no one could possibly be that stupid. Don't you realize it must be an act?

Nothing will convince Ian by Haley just telling him.

[Menarker]

Too bad Ian is so stuck on the "bond of family" that he forgets HOW a family is formed. That the concept of family is formed before any literal merging of the bloodlines.

I mean, before he became linked or married to his wife (Mia her name?), she wasn't part of his family. She was just another outsider, although probably a very friendly one. It wasn't until the risk of trust and connection is made that sparks the possability to form a family regardless of whether it is marriage/children or something more intangible. This is what Haley has gotten right and has not managed to clarify to Ian.

[Haggis]

I guess that could be it, if it's a case where escaping and then being thrown back in jail now would reduces his chances of being able to escape later? And the 'later' plan has a better chance of success than anything which he might improvise to slip out of Elan's company?

Maybe that's it. But it still seems weak to me, because if Tarquin isn't out to get him then there's no reason to be suspicious, and if Tarquin IS out to get him then it's hard to imagine an existing escape plan working (after years and years of failure).


Being dead would greatly reduce his chances.

He thinks that in tarquin's mind right now he just a criminal they can make money off of. He goes with elan then tarquin will know he trying to overthrow him. Once he has proof he simply kill him right away.

Paranoid? Yes, but that's how his mind works.

[Swordpriest]

Well, at this point, I think Haley's only real options are to either leave him to stew in his own juices -- whether or not those juices have any merit to them -- or use force. Overpower him, tie him up, and carry him out of the jail bodily. I mean, he's just a creaky old guy anyway, 4 robust young adventurers should be able to overcome him.

Of course, they'd have to gag him, too, since I think he'd shout for the guards! "Guards, these people are trying to rescue me! Kill them and put me back in my cell, please!" :smallbiggrin:

[Winged789]

It seems to me that he does not need to know why Tarquin would want him out, only that he does. perhaps he intends to use Ian's escape as evidence that Elan is a good guy, and thus with Ian's trust secured reveal countless parties that are part of the resistance. Total ridiculous? Yep. But he is convinced that Elan is the enemy, and sometimes when you don't know the other guy's plan, the easiest course is just to oppose whatever it is he seems to be up to.

Imagine if the joker wanted to buy a bunch of land out in Kansas, Bruce Wain would probably just buy it first and find out why the joker wanted it later. Same kinda idea.

[slayerx]

I think Ian's main problem is his ego. He thinks of himself like he's the main character (though not literally) in this whole battle while Haley is just a supporting character. As such the world revolves around him and everything that happens around him happens because of him. There are no coincidences, as its all a plot against him. He sees himself as the greatest threat to Tarquin's reign when the truth of the matter is, Tarquin doesn't really care about him.

To him, Elan MUST be evil and tricking Haley to get him because its the only thing that makes sense... Though truth be told, when you consider what an amazing coincidence this ENTIRE situation is (the power of PLOT!), you probably can't really blame him... Saying that Elan was sent to track down haley for tarquin is actually more likely than it just being a coincidence

[derfenrirwolv]

It is stretching it a bit. I'll wait and see how it goes though.

[Kris Strife]

Speaking of punching people, about how many feet in the air do you think Roy punched Geoff?

[MoonCat]

Speaking of punching people, about how many feet in the air do you think Roy punched Geoff?

It looks like three feet, maybe four... This isn't counting his legs though.

[Kurald Galain]

Of course, it doesn't help that Haley avoided telling him any of the concrete evidence that Elan isn't working with his father, and instead went purely for the "I love him, you just don't understand" route.
...what concrete evidence?

Haley's Dad strikes me as the kind of person who will never, ever admit that they made a mistake. I've met some people like that IRL and they're every bit as aggravating as you imagine. You know, going to any length before admitting weakness seems to be a theme in this strip, as both Xykon and pre-splice Vaarsuvius suffer from the same flaw.

[Shale]

Is there any evidence Haley could tell him that he'd believe? "He grew up with his mother and met his father two days ago." "How do YOU know?"

"We met over a year ago on a completely different continent, and it wasn't even his doing - I joined up with Roy after he did. Not only has Elan not done anything that would make us doubt that he is who he says, his brother backs up the statement that Nale and only Nale was raised by their father. And seeing as Nale's made honest attempts to kill us many, many times, I don't think he'd care much about keeping up that act. Elan did exactly nothing to steer us to the Empire of Blood, and has been magically tested and proven non-evil on multiple occasions, both by human magic and the judgment of the gods. But sure, trust your gut. That's never gotten you, say, thrown in jail for two solid years."

[Hydro]

This might be of help...

(theoretical dialogue)

Nothing will convince Ian by Haley just telling him.

I actually love this part, because it makes SO much sense, not just knowing Ian but also knowing Tarquin (i.e, that Ian has a point!)



He thinks that in tarquin's mind right now he just a criminal they can make money off of. He goes with elan then tarquin will know he trying to overthrow him. Once he has proof he simply kill him right away.

The ransom is something I hadn't thought of, and explains why the government might be keeping him alive even though they're all out to get him. I don't think another failed escape attempt would reduce his station at all, however; he's already made quite a nuisance of himself with escape attempts, and if they haven't killed him yet I don't see why this would be any different.


It seems to me that he does not need to know why Tarquin would want him out, only that he does.

I think you're right, actually. "That doesn't make sense" has never really been a strong counterpoint to paranoid reasoning.

Honestly, I think it was just a bit of a letdown. At first it looked like Ian was shaping up to be an equal but opposite force to Tarquin (especially when we found out he let himself get captured!), but now it's looking more like Ian really isn't that smart.

Still, I'm sure there's a lot left to happen before this plot arc resolves, so who knows. :)

[HandofShadows]

I think Ian's main problem is his ego. He thinks of himself like he's the main character (though not literally) in this whole battle while Haley is just a supporting character.

To put it another way, he is Miko with a different gender and skill set. :)

[Kurald Galain]

To put it another way, he is Miko with a different gender and skill set. :)

Or he's Othar... :smallbiggrin:

[MoonCat]

To put it another way, he is Miko with a different gender and skill set. :)

No, he is a dragon :smallbiggrin:

But actually, that's pretty much right, minus the belief Law is infallible.

[Tvtyrant]

Remember, he is also the product of 2 years spent in jail; that tends to make people kinda crazy.

[Swordpriest]

"We met over a year ago on a completely different continent, and it wasn't even his doing - I joined up with Roy after he did. Not only has Elan not done anything that would make us doubt that he is who he says, his brother backs up the statement that Nale and only Nale was raised by their father. And seeing as Nale's made honest attempts to kill us many, many times, I don't think he'd care much about keeping up that act. Elan did exactly nothing to steer us to the Empire of Blood, and has been magically tested and proven non-evil on multiple occasions, both by human magic and the judgment of the gods. But sure, trust your gut. That's never gotten you, say, thrown in jail for two solid years."

Ha ha -- thank you, good sir, that made my afternoon! :smallbiggrin:

[Military Man]

It could also be a bit of pessimism, I mean look at his life it hasn't been exactly a amusement park ride, As he see it what is there to lose by just staying put? If he gets caught escaping he might have something even worse happen to him, this on top of irrational paranoia could convince him.

On the other hand it could be that he's just crazy, we could be just over analyzing this.

[ThePhantasm]

On the other hand it could be that he's just crazy, we could be just over analyzing this.

Pffft. That never happens on this forum. I mean seriously?

[Zevox]

Distrust is one thing... but I can't get behind the inflated sense of his own importance. Why would Tarquin go to any length to play silly games with him?

Ineffectual would-be leaders of some not-yet-existing resistance should be a dime a dozen in places like the EoB.
It's not that he has an inflated sense of his own importance, it's that no other explanation makes sense to him. He can't conceive of Elan not working for his father because of the emphasis he places on family loyalty, which he apparently assumes applies to literally everyone. And he can't imagine Elan infiltrating Haley's group just to get at her, as he himself mentioned in the comic. Since he's also assuming that Haley is the leader of her group and formed it in order to rescue him - not an unreasonable assumption to make given the circumstances, though he is unreasonable in his assumption that Haley is just manipulating Roy when they try to correct him on the matter - he can't see any other reason for Elan to be infiltrating the group.

Yeah, the trouble is his sweeping assumptions that everyone else holds family loyalty in the same regard as he does and his utter paranoia, not any sort of self-importance, at least not that we've seen so far.

Zevox

[Fox Box Socks]

Anybody ever see the movie JFK? There's a scene that gets on my nerves something fierce. When Jim Garrison (Kevin Costner) is meeting with confidential informant X (Donald Sutherland), X tells him that "the who and the where are just scenery. The only important question is why".

This is terrible advice. He, an ex-CIA officer, is telling Garrison, a New Orleans District Attorney, to ignore all evidence and focus purely on motive. This is how conspiracy theories get started; when you automatically assume that all evidence is fabricated, you can put forth any kind of crazy notion, and no one will be able to contradict it. After all, every witness is either lying or being lied to, every piece of evidence is a plant, and anyone suggesting an alternate theory is simply deluded.

This is how I see Ian. He's so convinced that his worldview is correct and that everyone else's worldview is incorrect that he's driving his own daughter away.

[Forum Staff]

Two threads regarding Ian's motivations and/or the irrationality thereof have been merged.

Please avoid starting new threads on the same subject as an existing thread.

[SPoD]

The problem is, even if Elan is an evil guy, Ian's actions still don't make sense. I can't conceive of a situation, no matter how far-flung, in which leaving the cell right now results in him being worse off than he was before.

Then you're probably not a parent.

The answer to the question of why Ian would want to stay in prison (even with his current view) is really simple: He's protecting Haley.

Under his skewed version of events, one of the possibilities he mentions is that Tarquin is trying to catch Haley busting Ian out. That would put Haley in prison, or possibly executed. By staying put, Ian foils that plan, even if his own situation is not improved at all.

[G-Man Graves]

Then you're probably not a parent.


I actually think this sums up the response to this entire thread fairly well. Ian is a parent, with all the gifts and flaws that entails.

[Fox Box Socks]

More flaws than gifts. Part of being a good parent is recognizing when the kids are ready to leave the nest. Or, in Ian's case, have left the nest some time ago and are perfectly capable of holding a different worldview than you.

If this is Ian as a parent, he's not being a very good one.

[martianmister]

Someone has a perfect answer for this:


Taking into account that Tanquin ALREADY has Ian under custody, and that if he knew who Ian is and what he is there for, he should have already executed him...

... isn't a bit preposterous to think that Tarquin planted Elan on Haley's party to get to Ian?

I mean, Tarquin ALREADY has Ian.

Exactly... :smallannoyed:

[OverWilliam]

Now guys, we gotta be fair-- if you're going to be paranoid, being paranoid about the long-lost son of quite possibly the Second-most evil being on the continent is a mighty acceptable target. :smallwink:

[Scarlet Knight]

Face it, nearly every father has a nightmare that starts with their daughter saying: "Dad, I know he looks totally evil but forget everything you know! He's different and I love him!"

:smalleek:
Pardon me, I have to go see if there's an opening in the local convent....

[slayerx]

"We met over a year ago on a completely different continent, and it wasn't even his doing - I joined up with Roy after he did. Not only has Elan not done anything that would make us doubt that he is who he says, his brother backs up the statement that Nale and only Nale was raised by their father. And seeing as Nale's made honest attempts to kill us many, many times, I don't think he'd care much about keeping up that act. Elan did exactly nothing to steer us to the Empire of Blood, and has been magically tested and proven non-evil on multiple occasions, both by human magic and the judgment of the gods. But sure, trust your gut. That's never gotten you, say, thrown in jail for two solid years."
"Nale was obviously in on this whole scheme; his purpose was to ensure Elan gained your trust. Furtharmore, Elan ALLOWED himself to get captured by bounty hunters since he knew they would take all of you here. And "undetectable alignment" is a 1st level bard spell."

when you think about it, Haley's story does sound pretty crazy...
I mean the world is a BIG place and yet the two of them JUST HAPPEN to meet up to join the same team of adventurers for a long running quest that is unrelated to the empire of blood. Furtharmore, they JUST HAPPEN to have repeated run ins with Nale despite Elan and Nale not knowing about eachother before hand. Then much later on this unrelated quest JUST HAPPENS to bring to the western continent where Elan is "kidnapped" by bounty hunters and brought to the empire of blood which JUST HAPPENS to be the former tryania where Ian was imprisoned.

When it comes down to it, the idea that this entire story is just one giant set of coincidences is actually crazier than the idea that Tarquin sent Elan as a spy for an ill-defined purpose. The chances of Haley and Elan just meeting eachother by pure chance is One-in-a-million... So i guess Ian's true problem is that to him, one-in-a-million means one-in-a-million... when we know that it really means a sure thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

[Herald Alberich]

Too bad Ian is so stuck on the "bond of family" that he forgets HOW a family is formed. That the concept of family is formed before any literal merging of the bloodlines.

I mean, before he became linked or married to his wife (Mia her name?), she wasn't part of his family. She was just another outsider, although probably a very friendly one. It wasn't until the risk of trust and connection is made that sparks the possability to form a family regardless of whether it is marriage/children or something more intangible. This is what Haley has gotten right and has not managed to clarify to Ian.

The likely difference in Ian's mind is that Mia was not the daughter of his archenemy. Existing evil family ties trump future good ones for him.

[Swordpriest]

The likely difference in Ian's mind is that Mia was not the daughter of his archenemy. Existing evil family ties trump future good ones for him.

Which is why it's dumb of Haley to fail to communicate anything whatsoever. Or just break him out, and leave him to his own devices. If he wants to run back to jail, go ahead. If not, so much the better.

I think that's how my gaming group's party of adventurers would probably handle it. Then again, they aren't much for long angsty diatribes. Which is something I can appreciate in them. :smallbiggrin:

[Nimrod's Son]

I have to disagree. The loosening of inhibitions is exactly the situation where you give away secrets because your judgement is impaired.
As I already said, it is likely to make you say things you wouldn't otherwise dare or even mean. But if drinking alcohol was as incredibly likely to make you spill your guts about important information that you need to keep secret, as Themrys seems to think, then it wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is.

Anyway, that's a side issue. I was mostly arguing against the idea that Ian has "failed" Haley by not teaching her to avoid alcohol. For a start, we don't have any clue what Ian's opinion on drinking is, or what he's said to Haley about it. Secondly, we've only ever seen Haley drunk once, and it had no negative consequences. A case can be made that Ian has failed Haley in many ways, but his alcohol-education policy is not one of them.


Ever been to an office party where things best left unsaid were said?
God no. I wouldn't go to an office party if you paid me. :smallwink:

[Lurkmoar]

Face it, nearly every father has a nightmare that starts with their daughter saying: "Dad, I know he looks totally evil but forget everything you know! He's different and I love him!"

:smalleek:
Pardon me, I have to go see if there's an opening in the local convent....

Daughters are revenge against all fathers EVAR.

That said, I'm sure that given time, Ian will eat humble pie. I still think he's a bigger man then Eugene, but even big men have their flaws.

[King of Nowhere]

More flaws than gifts. Part of being a good parent is recognizing when the kids are ready to leave the nest. Or, in Ian's case, have left the nest some time ago and are perfectly capable of holding a different worldview than you.



Not ONE of my friends' parents have EVER done so.
I'm 24. I've been living alone in university college for 5 years. Now I'm studying abroad for a PhD, living alone in a foreign country. But when I go home for vacation, my parents think I need help to tie my own shoes.
Many of my friends have similar stories. And not one of them has parents that really realize their son/daugther is an adult. They know it, but don't realize it (knowing something is different from really realizing it - just like people running with cars know it's dangerous, but don't think they can really get hurt).
So, if we stood by your definition, there would be no good parents at all...