Dead Roy and the Oracle

[realroadcrossin]

OKay, so this is gonna sound kinda crazy, but it's crazy enough to be true that I registered to post it. Remember this comic, where the Oracle predicts Belkar's death: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html ? I'm pretty sure it's been referenced to death, but I've been wondering about how it ends.
The Oracle dismisses Roy and his spirit returns to the upper planes, remembering not only the oracle's prediction, but everything that happened while Haley and Belkar were at the Oracle. Now, we know that Roy remembers everything that happened while he was both dead and looking at what was happening to the order, and I've been wondering what it could that Roy knows based on this encounter that no one else does.
The answer is Miko's death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html). Remember, the only person who survived the moment when Miko killed herself was O-Chul, who is now in the northern continent and seems to prefer not to discuss what happened to her for the sake of honor. So, out of all the order, Roy is the only person who knows that Miko's dead, since Haley and Belkar forgot it due to the memory charm. Now I don't think an undead Miko is gonna evaporate out of nowhere, but I think in a plotline like this that's based so much on miscommunication between members of the party could easily lead into a moment where Roy knowing about Miko's death but nobody else knowing it would be important.
My personal theory has to do with the fact that in such a family friendly plotline, Nale has to be coming back sometime soon. It's been a full book since we last saw him and his merry band flying away from the ruins of Azure city plotting to basically interfere with the other gates. The only mention of them in the last book was that ominous poster the IFCC had during their board meeting with Qarr. I think if the fight for the last gate had to do mainly with the long personal emnity between Azure city and all goblins, this one's probably gonna have more weird miscommunications, as more and more sides get added to the struggle to find a gate in the middle of the desert. I think Sabine could easily pretend to be Miko and force the members of the order that she does meet, especially Elan, since as Nale's double and enemy and Tarquin's son, Nale could try to pull another switcheroo with Elan, which would probably be able to deceive everyone in the kingdom but Tarquin (take the moment where Varsuviuus figures out who is nale and who is elan and amplify it by fatherhood).
I dunno. Just a couple of theories I had to put out there.

[DwarfFighter]

Now I don't think an undead Miko is gonna evaporate out of nowhere, but I think in a plotline like this that's based so much on miscommunication between members of the party could easily lead into a moment where Roy knowing about Miko's death but nobody else knowing it would be important.

There are two basic plot twists regarding character deaths:

1. The character is dead but everyone thinks he's alive.
2. The character is alive but everyone thinks he is dead.

Of these two, the latter makes for good stories, the other... not so much.

Of course there are more advanced scenarios. E.g.: A dead character is impersonated by someone else (an illusion perhaps) and then revealed to be actually dead, and other variations.

-DF

[DaveMcW]

Everyone thinks that Miko and Nale died when the prison exploded.

[EmperorSarda]

I'm pretty sure Ochule knows she died. He did see her strike the gate after all.

[MoonCat]

I'm pretty sure Ochule knows she died. He did see her strike the gate after all.


The only person who survived the moment when Miko killed herself was O-Chul, who is now in the northern continent and seems to prefer not to discuss what happened to her for the sake of honor.

Did you read all the way?

[realroadcrossin]

I'm pretty sure Ochule knows she died. He did see her strike the gate after all.
Sure, he knows she died, but he doesn't even mention it to Hinjo, his direct superior in the sapphire guard, so as not to dishonor her memory (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html). Nobody's surprised when they hear that Miko died, but it's definitely something that's not inconceivable to go either way, especially when its in relation to the linear guild who didn't die in that azure city prison wreck. I'm just saying, it seems weird for roy to explicitly remember everything from the oracle when he doesn't really need to, since the only other pertinent piece of information is something he would remember either way.

[Gnoman]

Well, there is the little matter of the Oracle being the personal servant of a certain Eastern Deity that is very angry with a certain member of the Order of the Stick (although Roy does not know the latter.)

[Sylthia]

Roy would also know that the oracle is a kobald (as opposed to whatever race each character thinks he is).

[factotum]

Sure, he knows she died, but he doesn't even mention it to Hinjo, his direct superior in the sapphire guard, so as not to dishonor her memory (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html).

Er, all he's doing there is not telling Hinjo that Miko was the one who destroyed Soon's Gate. There's nothing stopping him saying she's dead, just not the exact circumstances of her death!

To OP: how do you know Roy hasn't told the others about Miko's death? There's no particular reason why he would keep it a secret.

[Nimrod's Son]

He'd also remember that Belkar stabbed the Oracle. Might not seem important at the moment, but that could change, particularly if Tiamat becomes more involved at some point.

[TimelordSimone]

Well, there is the little matter of the Oracle being the personal servant of a certain Eastern Deity that is very angry with a certain member of the Order of the Stick (although Roy does not know the latter.)

Western deity.
The Eastern Pantheon were killed by the Snarl.

[T.H. Everything]

He'd also remember that Belkar stabbed the Oracle. Might not seem important at the moment, but that could change, particularly if Tiamat becomes more involved at some point.

Haley was going to kick Belkar out of the Order before they got memory-wiped. Maybe they'll ''hold trial'' against him, and Roy brings it up as an infraction. Admittedly, if he does get killed off, then getting kicked out of the Order won't matter as much, but I personally hope that he does, just to humiliate him before his inevitable death.

[Sylthia]

To be fair, Belkar has been much more of a team player since he had his fake character development.

[MoonCat]

Well, there is the little matter of the Oracle being the personal servant of a certain Eastern Deity that is very angry with a certain member of the Order of the Stick (although Roy does not know the latter.)

Why are they mad at him?

[raisethearmy]

V killed around a fourth of the black dragons in the world.

[MoonCat]

V killed around a fourth of the black dragons in the world.

Oh, I thought they meant Roy, oh yeah...

[dps]

Now, we know that Roy remembers everything that happened while he was both dead and looking at what was happening to the order

We most certainly DON'T know this. Yes, Roy remembered everything that he saw at the Oracle's after the Oracle dismissed him and he went back to the upper plane, but we don't know exactly what Roy remembers after being rezzed about what all he saw while he was dead. In fact, he outright says that he doesn't remember much of it.

[MoonCat]

He said he didn't remember what was past the revolving door. That keeps Celestia a nice surprise every time he dies.

[Herald Alberich]

Just to provide a source: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html

He does remember everything he saw while spying on the mortal plane. He also remembers the cloudy demi-plane, and his father. Not sure how much he remembers about Roy's Archon besides said archon being a glowing ball of light.

[Sir Conkey]

I think Sabine could easily pretend to be Miko

Why would she disguise herself as someone the Order would probably attack on sight?

The only indication that Miko knew the Order was Belkar tormenting her in Prison

[Nimrod's Son]

Not to mention that Sabine apparently can't alter the tone of her skin when she shapeshifts, so she could take on Miko's shape but she'd still be the wrong colour.

[factotum]

Not to mention that Sabine apparently can't alter the tone of her skin when she shapeshifts, so she could take on Miko's shape but she'd still be the wrong colour.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html

She can apparently shapeshift so most of her face is white...

[Gnoman]

Western deity.
The Eastern Pantheon were killed by the Snarl.

Thank you. I was going from memory.



Fatcotum: That could have been makeup, and would be a good reason why she disguised herself as conspicuously as that in the first place.

[Nimrod's Son]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html

She can apparently shapeshift so most of her face is white...
She's got makeup on there. Admittedly, it's strange that she seems to be able to spontaneously manifest entire costumes out of nowhere, but note that wherever her face isn't covered with makeup her skin is the same colour as normal. No attempt to mimic the yellowish Azurite skintone.

[factotum]

But the makeup clearly wasn't there before the transformation, and I don't see there's a fundamental difference between Sabine being able to change her skin tone when she shapeshifts and being able to manifest makeup out of nowhere to do the same job... :smallwink:

[Nimrod's Son]

But the makeup clearly wasn't there before the transformation, and I don't see there's a fundamental difference between Sabine being able to change her skin tone when she shapeshifts and being able to manifest makeup out of nowhere to do the same job... :smallwink:
She was disguised as a Geisha, who are known for wearing white pancake makeup; it's part of the costume. I already acknowledged that it's weird that she can manifest costumes out of nowhere but apparently can't change the colour of her skin. But every single form we've seen her in so far (I count six in all, disregarding the schoolgirl outfit) has had exactly the same skin tone.

The ideal Azurite Geisha disguise would surely involve, as I said, taking on the same yellowish-pink tone of all the other Azurites, but she doesn't. Just the clothes, and the pancake makeup. We've not seen any evidence at all that she can spontaneously create a more subtle kind of makeup that convincingly mimics other skin tones, so until we do I'm going to continue to believe she can't.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/01/11/geisha_1201_narrowweb__300x389,0.jpg
Here's a real-world Geisha. I'm sure she's not fooling ANYONE that her skin is actually that colour. It's costume, nothing more.

EDIT: In fact, it appears that Sabine has pretty strict limitations on her colour palette for costumes too - almost entirely restricted to red, white and black (with some minor yellow trim on her "Innocent Virgin" look from a NCftPB bonus strip, and on her schoolgirl skirt if we assume that was also manifested and not simply a change of clothing). Judging by her Cliffport Police disguise (and also perhaps from the way she bucks the fashion of virtually everyone in Azure City), she can't do blue. So yeah, I'm pretty much certain that a convincing Miko disguise is beyond her capability.

[LuPuWei]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html

Another example to back you up: She clearly impersonmates the blacksmith here, but cannot duplicate his skintone.

[Nimrod's Son]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html

Another example to back you up: She clearly impersonmates the blacksmith here, but cannot duplicate his skintone.
Or his clothes; the real blacksmith's outfit is green.

[factotum]

Why would she NEED to impersonate the real blacksmith's skin tone or clothes? The Order hadn't seen him at any point to be able to tell the difference! I still think this is all reaching--until we have a situation where Sabine unquestionably needs to change her skin tone to avoid detection, but does not do so, I don't think it's possible to say she can't do it.

[Themrys]

Keep in mind that Roy could have brought someone who knows the real blacksmith. Not likely, but possible. The clothes could be explained, but the skin tone...not so much.

[Faramir]

Er, all he's doing there is not telling Hinjo that Miko was the one who destroyed Soon's Gate. There's nothing stopping him saying she's dead, just not the exact circumstances of her death!

To OP: how do you know Roy hasn't told the others about Miko's death? There's no particular reason why he would keep it a secret.

Actually, he did mention that Miko was dead though it might have been in bonus strip in the compilation book since I didn't find it in my quick search through the archive.

I remember Haley saying "Wait, Miko's dead?" and Belkar following up with "And so the world was safe for reasonable people everywhere."

[MoonCat]

Actually, he did mention that Miko was dead though it might have been in bonus strip in the compilation book since I didn't find it in my quick search through the archive.

I remember Haley saying "Wait, Miko's dead?" and Belkar following up with "And so the world was safe for reasonable people everywhere."

Ah, I made the same mistake. Then they walked through the memory charm.

[Nimrod's Son]

Why would she NEED to impersonate the real blacksmith's skin tone or clothes?
She doesn't, which is why I didn't bother to mention it in my original argument.

If you fancy addressing any of my important points, though, let me know. :smalltongue:

(You may want to start with why the lettering on her CPPD uniform is red rather than blue like all the other cops, since she does have a good reason to get that one right. The burden of proof is on you here, factotum - I'm just going by what we've seen.)

[Red XIV]

Haley was going to kick Belkar out of the Order before they got memory-wiped. Maybe they'll ''hold trial'' against him, and Roy brings it up as an infraction. Admittedly, if he does get killed off, then getting kicked out of the Order won't matter as much, but I personally hope that he does, just to humiliate him before his inevitable death.
Haley knows that Belkar killed the Oracle now too. Roy told her.

But Roy's not going to kick him out of the Order because he knows Belkar's going to die soon anyway.

[Kish]

Actually, he did mention that Miko was dead though it might have been in bonus strip in the compilation book since I didn't find it in my quick search through the archive.

I remember Haley saying "Wait, Miko's dead?" and Belkar following up with "And so the world was safe for reasonable people everywhere."
That was when the Oracle told them Miko was dead.

And, accordingly, Belkar, Haley, and Celia, having gone through the Memory Charm, don't remember it.

[Koshiro]

He said he didn't remember what was past the revolving door. That keeps Celestia a nice surprise every time he dies.
Funny, I just noticed that this is contradicted in Comic 670:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html

First panel. He shouldn't remember meeting his mom, not to speak of the awkward details of her post-mortem romantic life.

[Nimrod's Son]

First panel. He shouldn't remember meeting his mom, not to speak of the awkward details of her post-mortem romantic life.
I guess he was just THAT scarred by it. :smallamused:

Really, there are quite lot of instances of throwaway jokes like that one that contradict other things characters have said (the most recent example being Elan's comment in the latest strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) contradicting him in the last panel of #767 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html)). I tend to think of them as a mild case of fourth wall-breaking, nothing more.

[Koshiro]

Really, there are quite lot of instances of throwaway jokes like that one that contradict other things characters have said (the most recent example being Elan's comment in the latest strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) contradicting him in the last panel of #767 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html)).
Where do you see a contradiction here?

[LuPuWei]

Where do you see a contradiction here?

His belief that Roy respects his opinions followed by his acknowledgment that every word he utters crushes Roy's soul...