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View Full Version : Which has the better spell list [3.5]



Mr.Christie
2011-01-29, 09:01 PM
Which has the better spell list cleric or druid?

Amnestic
2011-01-29, 09:09 PM
Well Druids can explode a continent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185350) one spell level before Clerics, so they have that going for them. Then again, Clerics can grow spikes all over themselves, and that's just hardcore. It's a tough decision I have to say.

Overall, I'll have to say Cleric. Their ability to make Lawful/Chaotically aligned water is second to none. Truly, they are the greatest spellcasters of them all.

How would you define "best"? Best at what?

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-29, 09:14 PM
Basically, Clerics are better healers, and Druids are arguably better blasters (though clerics eventually do it pretty well too, and get awesome single target damage/death spells), and they're both excellent buffers... Um, Druids have more options in natural environments, while clerics are much less restricted. Druids can spontaneously summon, clerics can spontaneously heal/hurt, etc etc.

sonofzeal
2011-01-29, 09:19 PM
Spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally tips it over to the Druid, IMO. Cleric casting is awesome but kind of lacks depth; Druid casting is far more flexible.

ericgrau
2011-01-29, 09:41 PM
Clerics have the buffs and SoDs but druids have battlefield control and area SoS's so I'd say druids. If anything I thought the clerics had more blasty with flame strike, holy smite, etc. but I dunno.

FWIW those spontaneous summons are also roughly 1 spell level stronger (at least by CR) than the summon monster line, though I put that spell type somewhere in the low to middle among the above types in terms of usefulness. But ya probably better than spontaneous healing.

FMArthur
2011-01-30, 01:58 AM
Eh, I've found that as you expand options further and further with more books for spells and domains, Druid spellcasting becomes almost a subset of Cleric casting. It isn't entirely subsumed, but a lot of the real definitive druidy options gradually crept their way onto domains and functionally similar spells. But I'd say in Core or just a few sources the lists are about even, with the class comparison itself tipping in the direction of the Druid for its other class features. With full books Clerics can do it all.

Bakkan
2011-01-30, 05:48 AM
I haven't played wither Clerics or Druids to a great level, however if you simply consider the spell list and not the spontaneous casting options available, I find the Cleric spell list stronger as it seems to be quite a lot larger than the Druid spell list, especially given splatbooks.

icefractal
2011-01-30, 05:51 AM
It depends on what you're trying to do.

Clerics have, on a purely spells basis, more buffs. But once you factor Wildshape in, the Druid is better off - a simple Wildshape (something strong) + Bite of the Weretiger beats most non-Persistent Clerics by itself. At least until you hit the heights of Persistent/Accelerated cheese, where the Cleric takes the lead again.
For buffing people other than themselves, the Cleric is definitely better.

Blasting wise, the Druid has a lot of nice spells, often at a mysteriously lower level than anyone else. Eventually, Clerics get the high-end alignment-blasts, but in general the Druid is in the lead here.

For SoD stuff, the Cleric is firmly in the lead; Druids do get some good ones from Frostburn/Sandstorm, but I think the Cleric's still ahead.

For battlefield control, I think the Druid is in the lead. For summoning, they obviously are.

Utility wise, it's hard to say; neither has as much as a Wizard, but they both do have some useful spells, and some combat spells that can serve as utility in addition. On the one hand, Clerical summons are all intelligent and often have SLAs. On the other hand, Druids always have a summon handy, and elementals can be pretty useful.

Neither one has much of the crazy spell-accelerating / "killed you before the first round started" effects you see in high-level PvP, that's mostly a Wizard/Psion thing.

faceroll
2011-01-30, 06:45 AM
Spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally tips it over to the Druid, IMO. Cleric casting is awesome but kind of lacks depth; Druid casting is far more flexible.

Druids have a bunch of watered down Batman capabilities. Firestride, treestride, control weather, speak with all kinds of nature crap, INCREDIBLE control, like entangle or kelpstrand....

I would definitely put druid casting above cleric casting. Besides, when you shapechange into a solar, you get the casting of a cleric. Or shapechange into an ethergaunt for wizard casting. Muahahaha.

Toliudar
2011-01-30, 10:39 AM
I would definitely put druid casting above cleric casting. Besides, when you shapechange into a solar, you get the casting of a cleric. Or shapechange into an ethergaunt for wizard casting. Muahahaha.

Let's not make an already ridiculously powerful spell even sillier. Spellcasting is neither an extraordinary nor a supernatural ability.

Both spell lists can do the full range of utility effects, although Druids can do teleportation a little more easily. I love em both, but I'd give the edge to the clerics, thanks to Divine Metamagic.

Flickerdart
2011-01-30, 12:58 PM
Druids have a better list, but Clerics can expand their lists so easily that they pull ahead regardless in terms of casting power. I mean, really, Anyspell?

sreservoir
2011-01-30, 01:02 PM
Druids have a better list, but Clerics can expand their lists so easily that they pull ahead regardless in terms of casting power. I mean, really, Anyspell?

and then there's greater anyspell. but they're domain spells and basically 1/day under most circumstances anyway, though.

but they all get miracle, which is basically greater greater faster really anyspell.

Hammerhead
2011-01-30, 02:49 PM
Druids lack enchantments, illusions, necromancy, teleports, plane shifts, low- and mid-level shapeshifts, planar binding effects, planar ally effects, open-ended Anyspell or Miracle effects.

Clerics get pretty much any desirable effect through domains. Clerics also get spells to change their domains and various means of multiplying domain spell slots.

Psyren
2011-01-30, 03:00 PM
Spell-wise, clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) just (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) win, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) no contest. Druids can do a lot with their magic, but clerics can do far more.

ericgrau
2011-01-30, 03:07 PM
Druids have a bunch of watered down Batman capabilities. Firestride, treestride, control weather, speak with all kinds of nature crap, INCREDIBLE control, like entangle or kelpstrand....
Also, they can change into bats. Sorry, it had to be said. :smalltongue:

Eurus
2011-01-30, 03:11 PM
Spell-wise, clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) just (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) win, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) no contest. Druids can do a lot with their magic, but clerics can do far more.

Those are all 9th level spells, though. Clerics probably still pull ahead before that, I don't think the difference is nearly as pronounced at levels 1-16.

Coidzor
2011-01-30, 03:16 PM
Also, they can change into bats. Sorry, it had to be said. :smalltongue:

Or just naturally be bat-men. :smallbiggrin:

Psyren
2011-01-30, 03:37 PM
Those are all 9th level spells, though. Clerics probably still pull ahead before that, I don't think the difference is nearly as pronounced at levels 1-16.

I picked those because the difference was most pronounced there; clerics pull ahead before that however. Holy Word line, Bestow Curse (normal and greater), Plane Shift, Consumptive Field, Castigate... And of course we have domains to factor in as well.

If it's a divine caster you really want though, be an Archivist and get the best of both worlds.

faceroll
2011-01-31, 11:10 PM
Let's not make an already ridiculously powerful spell even sillier. Spellcasting is neither an extraordinary nor a supernatural ability.

Both spell lists can do the full range of utility effects, although Druids can do teleportation a little more easily. I love em both, but I'd give the edge to the clerics, thanks to Divine Metamagic.

Turning is pretty easy for a Druid to get. And as long as we're looking at class features, animal companion + share spell & wildshape trash the cleric, hands down.


Druids have a better list, but Clerics can expand their lists so easily that they pull ahead regardless in terms of casting power. I mean, really, Anyspell?

Anyspell requires a scroll or spellbook doesn't it? And a cleric requires the spell domain to get it, which is suboptimal, imo, considering that undeath and planning work much better with DMM. Furthermore, you only get to use anyspell once a day, twice a day with the higher level version, and if you want to use feats & turn attempts, a little more frequently than that.


Spell-wise, clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) just (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) win, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) no contest. Druids can do a lot with their magic, but clerics can do far more.

Yeah, but with shapechange, a druid gets all those spells, or spell like abilities, or use a Gate to summon something with those abilities, no problem. Shapechange, thanks to the Rules Compendium, pretty much gives anyone has it RAW access to virtually every spell ever printed, and every power or magical effect that miracle/wish can duplicate.

dextercorvia
2011-01-31, 11:35 PM
Spontaneous Domain ACF (or Domain Spontaneity feat) means never having to stop at one Anyspell. It means taking the feat Extra Turning instead of getting it for a Domain ability, but seriously that's not too bad.

Let's see. Wake up, prepare Anyspell. Cast it to prepare Alter Self. Cast DMM:Persist Alter Self (Something with high Natural Armor, or lots of attacks). Spontaneously cast Anyspell in place of another 3rd level spell. This time prepare Wraithstrike. Or, if your Cleric is more Roguish -- nothing beats there are a lot of things worse than Persistent Cloud of Knives at that level.

Psyren
2011-01-31, 11:52 PM
Yeah, but with shapechange, a druid gets all those spells, or spell like abilities, or use a Gate to summon something with those abilities, no problem. Shapechange, thanks to the Rules Compendium, pretty much gives anyone has it RAW access to virtually every spell ever printed, and every power or magical effect that miracle/wish can duplicate.

Gate > Shapechange simply because 40 HD > 25. So at 20, I gate in a Phane, who summons your 25HD past-time duplicate to fight you, and he has Shapechange too. While the two of you duke it out, I am watching the show while Astral Projectioned from my private demiplane protected by Forbiddance. Also, Clerics can get Shapechange too if they really want it, and still have Gate/AP/etc. And Wish and Miracle can't duplicate Gate, AP or Genesis without inviting DM screw.

faceroll
2011-02-01, 12:03 AM
Gate > Shapechange simply because 40 HD > 25. So at 20, I gate in a Phane, who summons your 25HD past-time duplicate to fight you, and he has Shapechange too. While the two of you duke it out, I am watching the show while Astral Projectioned from my private demiplane protected by Forbiddance. Also, Clerics can get Shapechange too if they really want it, and still have Gate/AP/etc. And Wish and Miracle can't duplicate Gate, AP or Genesis without inviting DM screw.

Shapechange into something with access to gate as a free action (like a Titan). Gate in infinite Titans. Call it a day. Shapechange into something with spellcasting, like a Black Ethergaunt or Solar. Or just Gate those things in, as a Titan. Every. Goddamn. Round.

Psyren
2011-02-01, 12:11 AM
Shapechange into something with access to gate as a free action (like a Titan). Gate in infinite Titans. Call it a day.

I don't see anything about its Gate being a free action. It's an SLA, sure (1/day) but that makes it a standard by default.

For the rest, again the Cleric can do these things too.

Optimator
2011-02-01, 12:18 AM
Cleric. Seems pretty straight forward to me, although I really like the unique Druid spells a great deal.

umbrapolaris
2011-02-01, 12:40 AM
Well Druids can explode a continent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185350) one spell level before Clerics,

true if there is no gods in your world, and no other spellcasters/diviners. if not, there is no way you can do it, nobody will let you do. ^^

faceroll
2011-02-01, 02:12 AM
I don't see anything about its Gate being a free action. It's an SLA, sure (1/day) but that makes it a standard by default.

I meant as a free action, the druid can shapechange into a creature that has the ability to use Gate, as shapechange with a CL of 20 lasts 200 minutes. Pretty much an all day buff.


For the rest, again the Cleric can do these things too.

You advocated that because a cleric could do these things, he is special. I am saying a druid's vanilla access to teleportation and control effects and vast array of sub-batman utility spells is what makes his list superior to the cleric's. For the real heavy hitters of spells, a druid can easily gain access to those spells through shapechange, which, IMO, makes clerics & druids more or less equal in terms of 9th level spells.

Gullintanni
2011-02-01, 08:42 AM
Shapechange into something with access to gate as a free action (like a Titan). Gate in infinite Titans. Call it a day. Shapechange into something with spellcasting, like a Black Ethergaunt or Solar. Or just Gate those things in, as a Titan. Every. Goddamn. Round.

This doesn't work. Shapechange specifically grants Ex and Su abilities. Unless I've erred, neither of these categories include SLA's or Spell-Casting. Shapechanging into a Titan or a Solar would make you crazy dangerous, but wouldn't really net you any of the really fun stuff.

Clerics can also gain access to Shapechange via the Animal domain. Clerics can also gain spontaneous casting of Miracles via the Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF, which blows Spontaneous Nature's Ally Spells out of the water. Plus the ability to borrow spells off of other casters lists via domains, or ACF's further expands Cleric spellcasting versatility.

Alternately, I don't really need to Shapechange as a Cleric. I can Gate in a Solar and have it do my spellcasting for me, including additional Miracles/Gates however I see fit.

Beheld
2011-02-01, 10:03 AM
Druids list.

Ignoring class features, Druid has a better list. Ignore everyone who's claiming that Clerics can get access to all the good Druid spells by Domains. When was the last time you saw someone take the Animal Domain? And Spell, And six other domains.

These people are playing schroedinger's domains. Not to mention the best Druid spells aren't in domains.

Druids have entangle at level 1, Kelpstrand/Blinding Spittle at level 2, Control Winds at level 5, ect. They have the best AoE control effects, and the get them before Wizards most of the time. Not to mention more hardcore self buffs than anyone needs, and Energy Immunity a level before everyone else.

Fully tricked out DMM Clerics use Miracle to emulate level 7 and 8 Druid spells.

Why would they do that if it wasn't so damn good.

Hammerhead
2011-02-01, 10:05 AM
These people are playing schroedinger's domains.
Beheld, meet the Substitute Domain spell from Complete Champion. You two play nice.

Psyren
2011-02-01, 10:10 AM
Beheld, meet the Substitute Domain spell from Complete Champion. You two play nice.

I was beginning to think only I read it :smallconfused:
Sovereign Host gives every domain I've discussed so far.

Lans
2011-02-01, 11:16 AM
This doesn't work. Shapechange specifically grants Ex and Su abilities. Unless I've erred, neither of these categories include SLA's or Spell-Casting. Shapechanging into a Titan or a Solar would make you crazy dangerous, but wouldn't really net you any of the really fun stuff.


Alternately, I don't really need to Shapechange as a Cleric. I can Gate in a Solar and have it do my spellcasting for me, including additional Miracles/Gates however I see fit.
Spell casting is a Ex. ability, and it is the most balanced designation for it as it takes shape change for it to matter.
Gate costs experience.

FMArthur
2011-02-01, 11:17 AM
I was beginning to think only I read it :smallconfused:
Sovereign Host gives every domain I've discussed so far.

Which means the Sovereign Speaker can get them all, being a 10 level prestige class that gets another domain every level. Which is obviously what you're talking about, but you really should say so for those who don't know about it.

Clerics gain so much versatility from splats that they outstrip druids by far in the spellcasting department after you leave core. A lot of it comes from class features and such: domains, turning shenanigans, Cleric-only options, etc. But those are all part of its spellcasting power, which is the important thing here: Clerics become better spellcasters than Druids because of all this.

Psyren
2011-02-01, 11:23 AM
Which means the Sovereign Speaker can get them all, being a 10 level prestige class that gets another domain every level. Which is obviously what you're talking about, but you really should say so for those who don't know about it.

No, any cleric can. Reread Hammerhead's post.
Sovereign Speaker just gives you more that two domains at once without needing to swap them, but that isn't necessary.

Besides that was just a WotC setting example - by being a Cleric of an ideal, I can get any domains I want that way.


Spell casting is a Ex. ability

This is incorrect.

FMArthur
2011-02-01, 11:30 AM
Oh sorry, I forgot that Substitute Domain only works to gain another domain from the same deity. I was thinking it could get you any domain.

Lans
2011-02-01, 11:33 AM
@Psyren
No, its not. Its been heavily debated and the ability to cast spells is an extraordinary ability. Look at MMV, you'll find examples.

Psyren
2011-02-01, 11:41 AM
@Psyren
No, its not. Its been heavily debated and the ability to cast spells is an extraordinary ability. Look at MMV, you'll find examples.

If it doesn't say (Ex), then it's not (Ex), it's natural. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalAbilities) MM1 trumps MMV.


Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Shapechange does not grant natural abilities; hence, no spellcasting if you shapechange into a Solar.

The best you can say is that you can gain a given monster's spellcasting if it is specifically denoted as Ex (which again, a Solar's is not.)

Beheld
2011-02-01, 02:35 PM
Beheld, meet the Substitute Domain spell from Complete Champion. You two play nice.

Which lets you sub out for another Gods domains. Since your average Contemplative of a Cause will have two, then three, then four domains of his choosing, that's not actually an improvement to be able to spend two days switching between four to six domains half of which suck. Still don't have access to all the awesome, or even most of the awesome, Druid spells.


Clerics gain so much versatility from splats that they outstrip druids by far in the spellcasting department after you leave core. A lot of it comes from class features and such: domains, turning shenanigans, Cleric-only options, etc. But those are all part of its spellcasting power, which is the important thing here: Clerics become better spellcasters than Druids because of all this.

It's not "Who has better spellcasting" Even though the answer is still Planar Shepard Druids who can take the form of a Black Slaad and fire off 10 SLAs a round and still dip Holy Inquisitor for DMM Persist. It's who has the better list, so a bunch of class abilities that allow you to cast spells better doesn't matter, because the important thing is the spell list.


If it doesn't say (Ex), then it's not (Ex), it's natural. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalAbilities) MM1 trumps MMV.

Rules Compendium trumps MMI.

grimbold
2011-02-01, 02:44 PM
i think that as a whole clerics get more powerful stuff however druids get an anmial companion to even it out

Psyren
2011-02-01, 02:45 PM
the answer is still Planar Shepard Druids

We're not discussing PrCs.


Rules Compendium trumps MMI.

I didn't know you could trump something by saying the exact same thing. :smallconfused:

Beheld
2011-02-01, 03:12 PM
We're not discussing PrCs.

No, we are discussing spell list. So the Cleric gets the spell list, and two domains, and the Druid gets his list, which includes better self buffs, better control spells, better save or X spells, and spells at lower level. Also blasting if they cared. Also spontaneous restoration spells but not as good HP healing.

But he doesn't get DMM turning, since that's a feat, and is obtainable by the Druid, and he doesn't get 10 domains, or really, any more than two, because that requires PrCs. But we aren't talking about spellcasting, we are talking about spells. If we were talking about spellcasting, it would still be the Druid, but since we are talking about spell list, it's still the Druid.

Gullintanni
2011-02-01, 03:59 PM
Druids still have nothing worth Gate or Miracle IMHO. There are also a ton of great cleric spells that Druids simply don't have access too.

Resurrection, True Resurrection
Restoration and Greater Restoration
Bestow Curse, and its Greater Cousin
Planar Allies
Symbol of Weakness is probably my favorite permanencied spell.
Plane Shift
Animate Dead (And by necessity, Desecrate)
Magic Vestment
Divination
Divine Power
Divine Favor
Righteous Might (Possibly the best combat self-buff in core)
Deeper Darkness (All day long Concealment at will? Yes please)
Geas/Quest
The Holy Word line of spells
Grtr. Magic Weapon/Vestment
Remove Blind/Deaf, Curse, Fear, Paralysis, Break Enchantment

Druids have no comparable spell to match a lot of these...and this is all within core. Including the splatbook spell list is just dirty. Clerics also have Domains as part of their spell lists. Two well chosen domains can vastly enhance a Cleric's spell list.

Given Implosion, Energy Drain, Gate, Astral Projection and Miracle, no Druid anywhere can match a Cleric's level 9 spellcasting. They're just outclassed. Prior to that, a Druid gets close second at best.

Psyren
2011-02-01, 04:05 PM
But he doesn't get DMM turning, since that's a feat, and is obtainable by the Druid, and he doesn't get 10 domains, or really, any more than two, because that requires PrCs.

Incorrect; you get access to any domains your deity has. Please read Complete Champion pg. 128. The spell lasts days/level no less, there's zero reason not to use it. And there are very few deities (assuming you even choose to worship one) and no pantheons that have only two domains to choose from.

And if you were curious where Rules Compendium and MM1 say the same thing, it is RC pg. 118.

Gnaeus
2011-02-01, 04:39 PM
Druids still have nothing worth Gate or Miracle IMHO. There are also a ton of great cleric spells that Druids simply don't have access too.

Resurrection, True Resurrection
Restoration and Greater Restoration
Bestow Curse, and its Greater Cousin
Planar Allies
Symbol of Weakness is probably my favorite permanencied spell.
Plane Shift
Animate Dead (And by necessity, Desecrate)
Magic Vestment
Divination
Divine Power
Divine Favor
Righteous Might (Possibly the best combat self-buff in core)
Deeper Darkness (All day long Concealment at will? Yes please)
Geas/Quest
The Holy Word line of spells
Grtr. Magic Weapon/Vestment
Remove Blind/Deaf, Curse, Fear, Paralysis, Break Enchantment

Druids have no comparable spell to match a lot of these...and this is all within core. Including the splatbook spell list is just dirty. Clerics also have Domains as part of their spell lists. Two well chosen domains can vastly enhance a Cleric's spell list.

Druids do have comparable spells for many of those, for example:
Planar Allies: Cleric spends 250 XP + gold to get a planar ally of a type he cannot choose to do his bidding for at most 1 day per level
but
1 level earlier, druid can spend 250 xp to Awaken an animal or tree, with no gp cost, and that ally will obey your instructions until it dies. Find something beefy, like a tiger or dire animal or dinosaur, and you're golden. They even get 2 extra HD.

Plane shift-At the same level, Druid SNA's a Janni, who plane shifts for him.

Righteous Might (Possibly the best combat self-buff in core)-Animal Growth on pet is better.

Grtr. Magic Weapon-Greater Magic Fang is better for a druid.

Various combat self buffs-Most of these are unnecessary for the druid, who can WS and outmelee most clerics anyway. Most are also not as good as the Druid's non-core combat buffs, like venomfire (!) and bite of the x.

And druids also get a lot of spells the cleric doesn't get. Good stuff like blinding spittle, snakes swiftness/mass snakes swiftness, and the Heart of/Primal lines.

Beheld
2011-02-01, 05:18 PM
Resurrection, True Resurrection Reincarnate is the same thing, only sometimes better. Some people want to be Ressurrected, some people want to be Reincarnated/Greater Reincarnated.

Bestow Curse, and its Greater Cousin Are really bad spells. It's not even a very good debuff for it's level. At it's best, it's like Confusion, but worse. A Wizard could blind a group from range one spell level ago, and a Druid can render you helpless on a failed will save one spell level later (can stun you on a failed fort save this level) from range.

Planar Allies Give up XP and treasure for an ally you can't choose or control. No thanks, I'd rather do it myself or use a minion I can control.

Symbol of Weakness is probably my favorite permanencied spell. It's a high level spell that does a moderate amount of Str damage after the point where everyone is either immune to Str damage, or a pushover, or has absurd saves. Frankly, I'll pass, the work it puts into casting restorations on the party members and pissing off dungeon residents who might not have attacked you is not worth it to me.

Plane Shift EDIT: Have multiple times at the same level, in all ways better.

Animate Dead (And by necessity, Desecrate) Also missed until level 17, though of course, one source of infinite minions is the same as another, and it's not like the Druid doesn't have plenty of them.

Magic Vestment MV is generally better than Barkskin, but the Druid already has absurd AC anyway.

Divination I agree Divination is great. Druids still have Circle Dance and better than Wizard Scrying. So yes, Clerics can answer questions, and Druids can find people. It's division of labor, hardly pro Cleric.

Divine Power Clerics get some extra BAB, Druids get absurd strength enhancments on top of existing strengths that are already twice the Clerics. Druids are better in melee, and Clerics are better Archers.

Divine Favor Ignoring for the Moment that the Druid spell that does the same thing has a slightly shorter duration, so what?

Righteous Might Do you play with Errata? It's usually not even worth casting unless you are DMM Persisting.

Deeper Darkness (All day long Concealment at will? Yes please) All day concealment that effects you too? What's so great about that?

Geas/Quest Another Terrible spell. Only even worth it to use on Commoners, because most people will just ignore it or get it removed.

The Holy Word line of spells Ignoring that Druids have that too, only weirder and dumb, those spells are terrible. They only work with stupid levels of CL boosting, and still only against outsiders and low HD undead, the first of which you can just auto banish, and the latter you can slap around in any number of ways, because they don't have good saves.

Grtr. Magic Weapon/Vestment Druids don't use weapons, so GMF is just as good, better in a lot of ways. There is no GMV.

Implosion You are level 17, the game is over, the Druid has Shapechange. Can become a Beholder and Use Finger of Death each round, along with other stuff as a free action in addition to casting Mass Drown or Cast in Stone.

Energy Drain Shapeshift into a Shadow Golem and do it at half strength as a free action each round, or into a (series of) Shadow Dragons and do it every round.

Gate Shapechange into a Solar, cast Gate. Or, find a minion to do it. Gate is ridiculous, and the second anyone casts it, the entire game is flushed down a toilet anyway, so no one cares, even if a Druid has to shapeshift into a Lilitu to use a Scroll to gate a Efferti to wish for three rings of three wishes to use to Wish for 6 more scrolls of Gate to Gate five times and save the last one for getting six more scrolls. And for good measure, do the first gating while astral projecting, so you don't even lose the first scroll.

No one cares about Gate.

Astral Projection Wizards have been doing that since level 9, no one is impressed, the Druid can Shapechange into a Nightmare, Astral Project, and then shift into any other form the very next round. Also, they never even have to waste any time buying an expensive jewel.

Miracle Miracle is either: 1) DM fiat, hope the DM gives me a present 2) A way to obtain lower level spells on other lists. Usually the Druid one, because most Wizard buffs are either very low level (and therefore obtainable by some other method), or not as good as the Druid ones.

Gnaeus
2011-02-01, 05:24 PM
" Plane Shift"
Yes, sorely missed by the Druid up until level 17.

No, it isn't. They can summon a critter to duplicate it at the same time the cleric can cast it. Since the druid can convert to a summon for the Janni, and can use a 4th level slot to do it if they have a ring of the beast, they can actually Plane Shift better than the cleric.

Beheld
2011-02-01, 05:25 PM
Incorrect; you get access to any domains your deity has. Please read Complete Champion pg. 128. The spell lasts days/level no less, there's zero reason not to use it. And there are very few deities (assuming you even choose to worship one) and no pantheons that have only two domains to choose from.

You get access to two at a time of your deity (note, not Pantheon, so no, the Sovereign Host which is 13 or 9 different deities does not allow you to have all their domains.), and you can switch them out by casting level 2 spells. Which means you are either permanently burning level 2 slots for this ability, or you aren't using it without more than a day prep time.

Secondly, you get two domains at a time out of a list of 4-6, half of which suck. No one cares if you can choose between Sun, Law, Strength, Healing, and Good domains. Any two you pick are as good as any other two, none of which are as good as having Spell and Darkness Domains.

Psyren
2011-02-01, 05:45 PM
You get access to two at a time of your deity (note, not Pantheon, so no, the Sovereign Host which is 13 or 9 different deities does not allow you to have all their domains.)

Complete Divine page 6: "Clerics who choose to serve a pantheon can choose their two domains from among all the domains offered by deities of the pantheon."


and you can switch them out by casting level 2 spells. Which means you are either permanently burning level 2 slots for this ability, or you aren't using it without more than a day prep time.

Heaven forbid I run out of level 2 slots :smalltongue: Especially when I'm using them on a days/level spell, which means I don't even have to prepare it every day.


Secondly, you get two domains at a time out of a list of 4-6, half of which suck. No one cares if you can choose between Sun, Law, Strength, Healing, and Good domains. Any two you pick are as good as any other two, none of which are as good as having Spell and Darkness Domains.

So Druids get those? :smallamused:

Complete Divine again: "You don't need to serve a deity to be a cleric. You can just pick two domains you like and act to advance the cause of a congruent philosophy."

So, I worship the ideal of Mystery; Spell and Darkness, all mine.

Beheld
2011-02-01, 06:19 PM
Complete Divine page 6: "Clerics who choose to serve a pantheon can choose their two domains from among all the domains offered by deities of the pantheon."

Which doesn't change the spell text of Substitute Domain. You can choose your initial two from a Pantheon, and then you can Substitute between one deity.


Heaven forbid I run out of level 2 slots :smalltongue: Especially when I'm using them on a days/level spell, which means I don't even have to prepare it every day.

You don't start at level 20. If you are level 5, you actually do care. Even at level 12, having two less 2nd level spells every single day is a big deal.

And yes, the duration is one day per level, so what, It's not a buff, it's a substitution, if you wanted those two domains so badly, you should have just chosen them. If you want to change your domains on a daily basis with any kind of practice, you have to have two less 2nd level spells every day.


So Druids get those?

No, but the Druid spell list is better than the Cleric list + those two domains, or any two domains. So if those two domains are better than any four domains that a specific deity has, then Substitute Domain doesn't give you a better spell list.


Complete Divine again: "You don't need to serve a deity to be a cleric. You can just pick two domains you like and act to advance the cause of a congruent philosophy."

So, I worship the ideal of Mystery; Spell and Darkness, all mine.

Great, and then you have a fine Cleric, who has a worse spell list than a Druid, and can never use Substitute Domain. You can make a great Archer Cleric, or DMM Persist Archer, or even a caster with that set up. But you don't have a better spell list than the Druid.

Psyren
2011-02-01, 06:22 PM
Which doesn't change the spell text of Substitute Domain. You can choose your initial two from a Pantheon, and then you can Substitute between one deity.

Ah, the "No Homers" argument, I see. I think we're done here.

Beheld
2011-02-01, 06:31 PM
Ah, the "No Homers" argument, I see. I think we're done here.

{Scrubbed}

The text of the spell is "you can swap one of your current domains for another that your deity offers."

Now we all know this doesn't mean you can choose any domain if you are a Cause Cleric, so why on earth would it mean any of hundreds available to Clerics who worship the Pantheon of "All Gods."

It clearly says "Your Deity" Not plural.

Psyren
2011-02-01, 06:40 PM
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

It was not an insult, nor was it meant as such. (Certainly telling someone to "be a big boy" comes much closer to being insulting.) Nor was it an ad hominem as I wasn't referring to you at all, only your argument (which is the very opposite of ad hominem.)

There is a hair-splitting tendency in rules discussions that if something is singular, it can never, ever apply to plural. Except logically, if I am worshiping three deities, I must first be worshiping one, because you cannot get to three without passing one.

But I can already tell that you won't agree with this reasoning, hence my ending the argument here rather than taking part in a flame war.

faceroll
2011-02-03, 01:15 AM
This doesn't work. Shapechange specifically grants Ex and Su abilities. Unless I've erred, neither of these categories include SLA's or Spell-Casting. Shapechanging into a Titan or a Solar would make you crazy dangerous, but wouldn't really net you any of the really fun stuff.

Rules Compendium changed that.


Clerics can also gain access to Shapechange via the Animal domain. Clerics can also gain spontaneous casting of Miracles via the Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF, which blows Spontaneous Nature's Ally Spells out of the water. Plus the ability to borrow spells off of other casters lists via domains, or ACF's further expands Cleric spellcasting versatility.

Those are class features. As long as we're bringing those up, Druids get wildshape. Infinite HP with Plant Shape, anyone? Maybe cryohydra or roc? Also, now you're getting into shroedinger cleric territory. Yes, the animal domain is good, but chances are you went Planning + Undeath because DMM:persist is so good for those first 16 levels, before you get 9ths.


Alternately, I don't really need to Shapechange as a Cleric. I can Gate in a Solar and have it do my spellcasting for me, including additional Miracles/Gates however I see fit.

Gate is an SLA of a Titan. Every round, a Druid with shapechange up can gate in a Solar without any investment other than a 9th level spell, a free action, and a standard. Solars get Miracle as an SLA. Using those "spells" as a druid costs you no XP, as the are SLAs. Cool, eh? You also get Wish, thanks to genies and pit fiends.

And lets not forget Chronotryns or Chokers for extra standard actions.


I was beginning to think only I read it :smallconfused:
Sovereign Host gives every domain I've discussed so far.

Isn't Planar Shepard also in that book? I thought this was a discussion of Druid vs. Cleric spell lists, not how you can build a cleric to get access to the same baller spells a druid gets by default.


Which means the Sovereign Speaker can get them all, being a 10 level prestige class that gets another domain every level. Which is obviously what you're talking about, but you really should say so for those who don't know about it.

Clerics gain so much versatility from splats that they outstrip druids by far in the spellcasting department after you leave core. A lot of it comes from class features and such: domains, turning shenanigans, Cleric-only options, etc. But those are all part of its spellcasting power, which is the important thing here: Clerics become better spellcasters than Druids because of all this.

Planar Shepard is so much better than the yawn crap clerics get, if we're going to be discussing whole builds as opposed to spell lists.

A druid9/class that gives turning 1/planar shepard10 with that item that makes you count as +1 level higher for the purposes of wildshape is better than anything you can come up with a cleric. You got DMM, a venomfired fleshraker, wildshape (and thanks to plant shape, you've got an average of +1,500 constitution), and either free quickened spells, 10 to 1 action advantage or an infinite action advantage.


No, we are discussing spell list. So the Cleric gets the spell list, and two domains, and the Druid gets his list, which includes better self buffs, better control spells, better save or X spells, and spells at lower level. Also blasting if they cared. Also spontaneous restoration spells but not as good HP healing.

But he doesn't get DMM turning, since that's a feat, and is obtainable by the Druid, and he doesn't get 10 domains, or really, any more than two, because that requires PrCs. But we aren't talking about spellcasting, we are talking about spells. If we were talking about spellcasting, it would still be the Druid, but since we are talking about spell list, it's still the Druid.

Exactly.


Incorrect; you get access to any domains your deity has. Please read Complete Champion pg. 128. The spell lasts days/level no less, there's zero reason not to use it. And there are very few deities (assuming you even choose to worship one) and no pantheons that have only two domains to choose from.

And if you were curious where Rules Compendium and MM1 say the same thing, it is RC pg. 118.

Ah, but in that case, you are sacrificing feats that you could have picked up with better domain optimization instead of choosing deities to give you spells so you can better mimic a druid's spell list who has to invest nothing to get those spells.

Ungvar
2011-02-03, 04:55 AM
I'm reading the Rules Compendium and I don't see anything about spellcasting being Ex, or Shapechange granting SLAs. Could someone cite the page number and quote the relevant text?

Vistella
2011-02-03, 04:57 AM
theres no rules text

it comes down to this:
somewhere is written that every ability is either EX, SU or SA, so spellcasting must be one of those

cant be SA cause SA are like spells but they arent real spells
cant be SU cause SU arent subject to spell resistance but some spells are
so casting must be EX

Zaydos
2011-02-03, 05:10 AM
theres no rules text

it comes down to this:
somewhere is written that every ability is either EX, SU or SA, so spellcasting must be one of those

cant be SA cause SA are like spells but they arent real spells
cant be SU cause SU arent subject to spell resistance but some spells are
so casting must be EX

Except that both the MM and Rules Compendium say that it is possible for something to be none of those and that if they are not marked they aren't.

Just like claws are an ability but none of those, and a hydras ability to full-attack as a standard action is actually not extraordinary, it just can do that as part of being a hydra.

There are dozens of creatures with spell-casting which is not any of those three.

There is one that has it as an extraordinary ability. RAW that's the only one you can shapechange into to get its spell-casting. RAI that's the only one you can shapechange into to get its spell-casting and maybe not then.

As for spell list.

Clerics.

Druids have some fun Animal Companion buffs, some nice control, and some nice blasting.

Clerics have better buffs, some nice control (and nicer with the right domains), horribly useless blasting (although Harm is nice), and excellent healing.

LordBlades
2011-02-03, 07:23 AM
Until you reach 9th level spells, the lists are pretty balanced IMHO.

Druids get more control , better blasting and self buffs(hard to top bite of X line).
Clerics get better healing, better status removal effects and better party buffs.

Once you reach lvl 9 spells cleric has Miracle (also Time Stop and Shapechange with domains) while druid has Shapechange. Miracle trumps Shpaechange IMHO unless you rule Shapechange also grants you spellcasting(IMHO this is the correct RAW interpretation, but pretty absurd RAI).

Gullintanni
2011-02-03, 07:40 AM
Once you reach lvl 9 spells cleric has Miracle (also Time Stop and Shapechange with domains) while druid has Shapechange. Miracle trumps Shpaechange IMHO unless you rule Shapechange also grants you spellcasting(IMHO this is the correct RAW interpretation, but pretty absurd RAI).

This is wrong. As pointed out, RC 118-119 indicates that there are FOUR categories of abilities. Ex, Su, SLA and Natural. A natural ability is defined therein as any ability that is not specifically marked as Ex, Su or SLA (ex. Spellcasting).

Given that Shapechange specifically grants Ex, and Su abilities, you do not, by RAW gain access to a creature's spellcasting or SLAs.

It's all there in the book.

LordBlades
2011-02-03, 08:02 AM
This is wrong. As pointed out, RC 118-119 indicates that there are FOUR categories of abilities. Ex, Su, SLA and Natural. A natural ability is defined therein as any ability that is not specifically marked as Ex, Su or SLA (ex. Spellcasting).

Given that Shapechange specifically grants Ex, and Su abilities, you do not, by RAW gain access to a creature's spellcasting or SLAs.

It's all there in the book.

In the same paragraph. natural abilities are 'abilities a creature has because of
its physical nature'.

So, by this quotes, spellcasting is a result of a creature's physical nature?

Gullintanni
2011-02-03, 08:11 AM
In the same paragraph. natural abilities are 'abilities a creature has because of
its physical nature'.

So, by this quotes, spellcasting is a result of a creature's physical nature?

All we can really say is that spellcasting is not marked Ex, Su, or SLA and therefore must be Natural. In the case of a Solar, it makes sense that spellcasting is an inherent physical ability, owing to the fact that they are divine in nature.

That being said, from SRD:

"Shapechange
Transmutation
Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check."

Emphasis mine. Inherent physical nature or not, the spell grants you the Type, Su and Ex abilities of the assumed form. By the wording of the spell, you do not, for all practical purposes, become a Solar, you emulate a Solar. Strict RAW.

Psyren
2011-02-03, 08:54 AM
Rules Compendium changed that.

Do you have a page cite? Rules Compendium includes the text for both Shapechange and the "Natural Abilities" ruling and the wording of both is identical to the SRD, so I'm genuinely curious as to what I'm missing.


Gate is an SLA of a Titan. Every round,

A Titan's Gate is 1/day.
And Shapechange doesn't give SLAs anyway.



Isn't Planar Shepard also in that book? I thought this was a discussion of Druid vs. Cleric spell lists, not how you can build a cleric to get access to the same baller spells a druid gets by default.


The Sovereign Host (NOT Sovereign Speaker) are in ECS as well as FoE. I am talking about the deities, not the PrC, so Planar Shepherd doesn't even enter the equation.

Obviously Planar Shepherd lets a Druid overtake everything. I am not disputing this, merely dismissing it as irrelevant.


Ah, but in that case, you are sacrificing feats that you could have picked up with better domain optimization instead of choosing deities to give you spells so you can better mimic a druid's spell list who has to invest nothing to get those spells.

What feats? :smallconfused:
A cleric doesn't need feats to choose who to worship, and the Domain Sub spell is automatically on their list; They don't have to do anything to learn it.

dextercorvia
2011-02-03, 09:13 AM
What feats? :smallconfused:
A cleric doesn't need feats to choose who to worship, and the Domain Sub spell is automatically on their list; They don't have to do anything to learn it.

I'm not arguing his point, but I think he means that taking domains other than Planning and Undeath (which grant two feats) means delayed access to DMM at earlier levels.

Beheld
2011-02-03, 09:21 AM
Re: Shapechange and spellcasting:

1) It is false that there is only one monster with Ex spellcasting. There are many monsters with Ex spellcasting. For example, the Lilitu that automatically succeeds on all UMD checks I mentioned earlier? Also has Ex Cleric Casting based off Charisma. Basically, the later books tag spellcasting as Ex, the earlier ones don't.

2) It doesn't actually matter if spellcasting is "Ex" or "natural ability" Shapechange grants it either way. Since Natural abilities are dependent on physical form, having the physical form would grant you those qualities.

Gullintanni
2011-02-03, 09:21 AM
I'm not arguing his point, but I think he means that taking domains other than Planning and Undeath (which grant two feats) means delayed access to DMM at earlier levels.

I'm not really sure this is relevant in a discussion of spell lists. DMM is a feat, after all. Regardless, the point Psyren is making is that using Substitute Domain, I could pick the Planning and Undeath domains, and then sub one out if I wanted to grab the Animal domain and pull Shapechange shenanigans.

This lets you get keep the awesome Domain powers and open up any spell list you want, so using this spell, you don't have to sacrifice any optimization at all.

Beheld
2011-02-03, 09:23 AM
I'm not really sure this is relevant in a discussion of spell lists. DMM is a feat, after all. Regardless, the point Psyren is making is that using Substitute Domain, I could pick the Planning and Undeath domains, and then sub one out if I wanted to grab the Animal domain and pull Shapechange shenanigans.

This lets you get keep the awesome Domain powers and open up any spell list you want, so using this spell, you don't have to sacrifice any optimization at all.

Find me a single Deity who has planning, undeath, and animal domains.

Also, when you traded out Planning, you would no longer meet the pre reqs for Persist, and you would no longer be able to persist spells. Not too bad if you've already Persisted all your spells, but you would have to change back at the beginning of each day in order to keep Persisting, and you would have no way to Persist Shapechange.

Gullintanni
2011-02-03, 09:52 AM
Find me a single Deity who has planning, undeath, and animal domains.

Also, when you traded out Planning, you would no longer meet the pre reqs for Persist, and you would no longer be able to persist spells. Not too bad if you've already Persisted all your spells, but you would have to change back at the beginning of each day in order to keep Persisting, and you would have no way to Persist Shapechange.

I'm AFB at the moment, but I believe Sub Domain just trades out spell lists. You don't lose the granted Domain powers. Second, you play a cleric of Ideals. Don't worship a Deity, and you can have any Domains you want.

Regarding Shapechange and Spellcasting...
Shapechange does NOT grant ALL Natural Abilities possessed by the assumed form...follow the bouncing ball now.

Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like alter self-which does not grant spellcasting,

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

Alter Self grants the following natural abilities: You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

Shapechange
Transmutation
Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

This spell functions like polymorph It therefore grants you all the natural abilities that polymorph grants...which inherits its natural abilities from alter self (which does not, as established, grant spellcasting) ...and you also gain Su. and Ex. abilities.

In summary, Alter Self grants you the physical qualities above. Polymorph, which acts like Alter Self also grants you physical ability scores and Ex. abilities. Shapechange, which acts like Polymorph, grants you Su. abilities in addition to the physical ability scores and Ex. abilities and Physical qualities of Alter-Self.

None of these spells, each being based on the previous spell in their respective lists, grant spellcasting as a natural ability.


Re: Shapechange and spellcasting:
1) It is false that there is only one monster with Ex spellcasting. There are many monsters with Ex spellcasting. For example, the Lilitu that automatically succeeds on all UMD checks I mentioned earlier? Also has Ex Cleric Casting based off Charisma. Basically, the later books tag spellcasting as Ex, the earlier ones don't.


And this is fallacious logic. Specific trumps general therefore those creatuers that have spellcasting as an Ex. ability are members of their own specific category. They do not reflect the RAI of spellcasting in general, much less the RAW regarding spellcasting in general.

Psyren
2011-02-03, 09:54 AM
The Druid can't persist Shapechange at all so the point is moot. You also don't need the Planning domain to get it. I don't see how its choice as a domain is relevant; I believe domains should be chosen for spells first and abilities second.

In any case, I'd go with DMM: Quicken over DMM: Persist - A Quickened Shapechange would let me do something with my form in the same round, and take less turn attempts than persisting it would.



None of these spells, each being based on the previous spell in their respective lists, grant spellcasting as a natural ability.

You're absolutely right - and Rules Compendium states the exact same thing too, so I'm genuinely confused as to what I'm overlooking here.

Shapechange = Ex and Su of new form, you lose yours - and nothing else.

LordBlades
2011-02-03, 10:21 AM
From the Alter Self text 'You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind.'

Since, spellcasting, as a natural ability is an ability 'a creature has because of
its physical nature' (quote from rules compendium) I believe it qualifies as a 'physical quality'.

Gullintanni
2011-02-03, 10:24 AM
From the Alter Self text 'You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind.'

Since, spellcasting, as a natural ability is an ability 'a creature has because of
its physical nature' (quote from rules compendium) I believe it qualifies as a 'physical quality'.

From the spell, Emphasis mine:

Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

The spell specifies WHICH physical qualities you gain, and spell-casting is not on the list.

Psyren
2011-02-03, 10:26 AM
Honestly, Shapechange is good enough as-is. Why try to violate RAW and RAI to get it to do more than it should?

Even 9th-level spells have limits.

LordBlades
2011-02-03, 10:29 AM
From the spell you're (selectively) quoting to favor your argument, Emphasis mine:

Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)


You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

The spell specifies WHICH physical qualities you gain, and spell-casting is not on the list.
Emphasis mine:

If by RAW spellcasting is considered a natural ability, it could very well fit under 'gross physical qualities'. Note the 'so forth' at the end, which indicates there are other qualities you might receive when shapechanging and spellcasting could very well be among them.

Zaydos
2011-02-03, 10:31 AM
And neither shapechange or polymorph wave that... so you don't actually get all your attacks as a standard action if you polymorph into a hydra... honestly I don't know whether to change this or clap for minor balancing.

Psyren
2011-02-03, 10:35 AM
If by RAW spellcasting is considered a natural ability, it could very well fit under 'gross physical qualities'.

That is a stretch that can cross planes. There is no way you can get "physical qualities" = "natural abilities."

Gullintanni
2011-02-03, 10:36 AM
Emphasis mine:

If by RAW spellcasting is considered a natural ability, it could very well fit under 'gross physical qualities'. Note the 'so forth' at the end, which indicates there are other qualities you might receive when shapechanging and spellcasting could very well be among them.

It isn't. Given the definition of gross, only one meaning is appropriate in context. Emphasis below.

1. a. Exclusive of deductions; total: gross profits. See Synonyms at whole.
b. Unmitigated in any way; utter: gross incompetence.

2. Glaringly obvious: gross injustice. See Synonyms at flagrant.

3. a. Brutishly coarse, as in behavior; crude: "It is futile to expect a hungry and squalid population to be anything but violent and gross" (Thomas H. Huxley).
b. Offensive; disgusting.
c. Lacking sensitivity or discernment; unrefined:
d. Carnal; sensual.

4. a. Overweight; corpulent.
b. Dense; profuse.

Spellcasting is not a glaringly obvious aspect of the Solar's physical form. Their inclusion of the word gross strongly implies that the spell grants any obvious, observable physical quality inherent to the creature. To suggest that spellcasting fits within the definition of a gross physical quality, as defined by above is a perspective leaping into the bounds of logical absurdism. The examples listed in the spell itself (wings, extra extremities) clearly demonstrate the writer's intent. There's not really any ambiguity here.

LordBlades
2011-02-03, 10:44 AM
Honestly, Shapechange is good enough as-is. Why try to violate RAW and RAI to get it to do more than it should?

Even 9th-level spells have limits.

It's simply a thought exercise. ALso, I'm fully aware about what RAI should be (IMHO) regarding spells and shapechangs. TBH a wizard is wasting time by shapechanging into a solar(assuming you get the spells) and casting 1 spell/round from 2 spell lists when you could shapechange into a choker and cast 2 spells per round(that's core, for non core check sharn and cronothirin).

Also, my trail of thought regarding natural abilities was :

Natural abilities=abilities a creature has because of its physical nature= physical qualities.

Psyren
2011-02-03, 10:53 AM
It's simply a thought exercise.

And I'm all for those, but at some point you have to realize something needs homebrew to work.



Natural abilities=abilities a creature has because of its physical nature= physical qualities.

A quality is not an ability. An ability is something you can do. A quality is something you are. It's simple.

Lans
2011-02-03, 01:10 PM
Druid can also shapechange into a Zodar for infinite wishes

Corronchilejano
2011-02-03, 01:15 PM
Druid can also shapechange into a Zodar for infinite wishes

Shapechange doesn't give you spell-like abilities.

edit: wait, my brain fell asleep. What the hell is a Zodar?

Telonius
2011-02-03, 01:20 PM
This is bringing PrC's into the mix, but a typical Core Cleric can qualify for Thaumaturgist, while a Core Druid can't (due to lack of Lesser Planar Ally). With the PrC, the Cleric basically trades one near-useless feat (there aren't very many offensive Conjuration spells for Cleric in core) for Augment Summoning, free Extend for Summoning spells, and a Planar cohort. Although the Cleric still can't cast Summons spontaneously, this would probably bring him pretty close to the power a Druid can summon to his aid.

Beheld
2011-02-03, 01:56 PM
I'm AFB at the moment, but I believe Sub Domain just trades out spell lists. You don't lose the granted Domain powers.

It trades out granted domain powers as well, hence the fact that you would lose access to Persist.


Second, you play a cleric of Ideals. Don't worship a Deity, and you can have any Domains you want.

If you are a cleric of ideals, then casting substitute domain wastes a second level spell, and doesn't allow you to replace one of your domains with another. It only works for worshipers of a single deity, who can then choose domains of that single deity, it's right in the spell.


And this is fallacious logic. Specific trumps general therefore those creatuers that have spellcasting as an Ex. ability are members of their own specific category. They do not reflect the RAI of spellcasting in general, much less the RAW regarding spellcasting in general.

I presented no fallacious logic. You just decided to append a conclusion which I did not state or imply to what I did in fact say. There are multiple spellcasting monsters who have Ex spellcasting. That was my conclusion, and also my only premise. I never claimed that was represenative of the rules for spellcasting in general.

The rules for spellcasting in general are terrible, because they are not Ex abilities, and they are not supernatural, and they are not Spell Like, and they are not natural. They literally fit into none of the four categories claimed by the game to exist. Sometimes they are tagged Ex, sometimes not, but in no case should shapechanging ever allow someone to cast spells, even though it does.


This is bringing PrC's into the mix, but a typical Core Cleric can qualify for Thaumaturgist, while a Core Druid can't (due to lack of Lesser Planar Ally). With the PrC, the Cleric basically trades one near-useless feat (there aren't very many offensive Conjuration spells for Cleric in core) for Augment Summoning, free Extend for Summoning spells, and a Planar cohort. Although the Cleric still can't cast Summons spontaneously, this would probably bring him pretty close to the power a Druid can summon to his aid.

Not really. A Planar Cohort is so terrible it's a waste or your time, and you'd be better off spending that feat on Leadership for a real cohort, if your DM is letting you bring in Cohorts.

Summons are merely mediocre to begin with, by the time you get Thaums augment summoning and free extend, you don't even care enough to ever prepare or cast them.

Core only Druid is clearly superior in every single way. Outside of Core, Clerics would be better if Druids couldn't also get DMM Persist, but they can. If you are a Cleric and not a Druid, you should be taking advantage of casting the spell Heal or Harm or Mass of either, or be using Archery, because those are the only thing Clerics are better at.

In some game that aren't "anything goes except Planar Shepard and Incantatrix" and aren't Core, but are instead "This list of sources, and also, Druids can't get DMM Persist, but Clerics can" Cleric would be a viable choice for other things.

Psyren
2011-02-03, 02:44 PM
I see no cause for argument:

1) Under my reading, Spellcasting is natural - Shapechange doesn't grant it.
2) Under yours, Spellcasting falls under none of the 4 - Shapechange doesn't grant it.

Either way, no casting through Shapechange. So no Gate, Astral Projection etc. for Druids, unless there's a creature who gets these as Ex or Su without limitations.

For Domain Substitution, worship the gods in a pantheon, and you can swap a domain from one of the gods in that pantheon for another domain that deity offers, just as RAW requires. The fact that your two (or more) domains don't actually have to come from the same deity in the pantheon to begin with is simply a perk.

Telonius
2011-02-03, 02:59 PM
Emphasis mine. Inherent physical nature or not, the spell grants you the Type, Su and Ex abilities of the assumed form. By the wording of the spell, you do not, for all practical purposes, become a Solar, you emulate a Solar. Strict RAW.

Absolute strict RAW, you can't Shapechange into a Solar at all unless you're an epic mage.

The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD).

Solars have 22 HD.

Greenish
2011-02-03, 03:02 PM
Absolute strict RAW, you can't Shapechange into a Solar at all unless you're an epic mage.


Solars have 22 HD.Gaining a +2 to CL isn't the most difficult thing in the world.

Beheld
2011-02-03, 03:11 PM
I see no cause for argument:

1) Under my reading, Spellcasting is natural - Shapechange doesn't grant it.
2) Under yours, Spellcasting falls under none of the 4 - Shapechange doesn't grant it.

No, under my reading, spellcasting is often Ex, by RAW, and anyone can see that, becuase it says it right there. The rest of the time it would be a "natural ability" because it is not named, but yet, can't possibly be a natural ability, and so by RAW, it would be a natural ability, and all human Commoners would actually have Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, ect spellcasting.

In general, you have to pick one of the things that is true by RAW, and houserule it, because there is no acceptable RAW. As such, since spellcasting is already Ex sometimes, making all instances of it Ex is much better than giving all Human Commoners a thousand different casting types, or inventing a new ability type. It also doesn't hurt that I don't allow Shapechange in my games. Whatever arbitrary houserule you want to make, the actual RAW is literally unplayable regarding spellcasting as an ability, so for the sake of arguments about power of spell lists, I assume that Shapechange can only grant the spellcasting that is specifically delineated as Ex.

But Shapechange for darn sure grants those castings, and so, Druid can still use Wish every round at no XP cost (So basically, even better than Miracle), and also duplicate the effects of Energy Drain, Implosion, Gate at the same level as Clerics. Mass Heal/Mass Harm is still outside their realm of duplication, I think, though they can get enough Cleric casting to prepare Heal or Harm, and get double actions.


Either way, no casting through Shapechange. So no Gate, Astral Projection etc. for Druids, unless there's a creature who gets these as Ex or Su without limitations.

You are really trying hard to trick everyone who isn't reading this thread closely with technically true but grossly misleading statements, aren't you?

Yes, they can't do those things unless there are creatures who get them as Ex or Su abilities "without limitations" (What limitations do you imagine? Druids actually get them even if the creatures have the ability with limitations.) But since I already pointed out how Druids get in specific both of those abilities from Ex and Su abilities via Shapechange, you could just replace that sentence with "Druids do in fact get Gate and Astral Projection through Shapechange."


For Domain Substitution, worship the gods in a pantheon, and you can swap a domain from one of the gods in that pantheon for another domain that deity offers, just as RAW requires. The fact that your two (or more) domains don't actually have to come from the same deity in the pantheon to begin with is simply a perk.

Fine. Find me any two gods who have Planning, Undeath, and the Animal Domain between the two of them, and one of the two gods must have Animal and one of the others, unless you are claiming you had animal domain from level 1, when it wasn't good till level 16 for no reason just so you could eventually have Shapechange.


Absolute strict RAW, you can't Shapechange into a Solar at all unless you're an epic mage.


Solars have 22 HD.

Unless you posses a spell that increases CL, or perhaps one of several items, like say a Bead of Karma that allows any Divine Spellcaster to gain a +4 CL.

Telonius
2011-02-03, 03:12 PM
Gaining a +2 to CL isn't the most difficult thing in the world.

For a Wizard, no problem. For a Cleric, there are domains for that. But for a Druid? That's going to be a bit trickier. An Ioun stone will give you +1, but otherwise you're getting into some seriously obscure sources or failure percentages.

EDIT: The Prayer Bead is nice, forgot about that one.

Beheld
2011-02-03, 03:13 PM
For a Wizard, no problem. For a Cleric, there are domains for that. But for a Druid? That's going to be a bit trickier. An Ioun stone will give you +1, but otherwise you're getting into some seriously obscure sources or failure percentages.

I agree, Core is so obscure.

Lans
2011-02-03, 03:15 PM
Shapechange doesn't give you spell-like abilities.

edit: wait, my brain fell asleep. What the hell is a Zodar?
Its a creature that gets Wish as a supernatural ability.

Psyren
2011-02-03, 03:17 PM
No, under my reading, spellcasting is often Ex, by RAW

For specific creatures, which do not include Solars.



You are really trying hard to trick everyone who isn't reading this thread closely with technically true but grossly misleading statements, aren't you?

No, I am simply stating that if a creature's ability does not say (Ex) or (Su) then Shapechanging into that creature doesn't grant it. That's all.


Fine. Find me any two gods who have Planning, Undeath, and the Animal Domain between the two of them

How did Planning and Undeath come into this? Druids don't get those abilities either, so they have no bearing on this discussion.

Gullintanni
2011-02-03, 03:23 PM
No, under my reading, spellcasting is often Ex, by RAW, and anyone can see that, becuase it says it right there. The rest of the time it would be a "natural ability" because it is not named, but yet, can't possibly be a natural ability, and so by RAW, it would be a natural ability, and all human Commoners would actually have Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, ect spellcasting.


This is so flawed. Humans have the natural ability to cast spells. Correct. They don't begin to learn spells or gain spells per day UNLESS they take levels in a spellcasting class.

The RAW is not even close to contradictory here. A Solar's spellcasting is a natural ability keyed off of its racial traits as an Angel. It has 22 HD worth of spellcaster levels, and it somewhere along the line has 2 dead levels.

Now...regarding spellcasting as an Ex. ability...in that instance, yes Shapechange does grant spellcasting. I don't know of any creature that has a full 20 caster levels as an Ex. ability, though.

Beheld
2011-02-03, 03:24 PM
For specific creatures, which do not include Solars.

Nor did I ever claim that it did. In fact, I specifically pointed out that for the purposes of this conversation, I am assuming that Shapechange does not get spellcasting of 17th level or higher. Though I know of how it can get at the very least 9th level casting. I haven't looked, it's possible they can get up to 17th level, but for the purposes of this, I have described how they can get access to every single (good) 9th level Cleric spell except Mass Heal or Mass Harm using shapechange.


No, I am simply stating that if a creature's ability does not say (Ex) or (Su) then Shapechanging into that creature doesn't grant it. That's all.

And then claiming that therefore Druids cannot duplicate spells that you already know have Ex or Su tags duplicating.


How did Planning and Undeath come into this? Druids don't get those abilities either, so they have no bearing on this discussion.

They came into it because someone else claimed that a Cleric could have Planning, Undeath, and Animal Domains, by virtue of the domain substitution spell. So I pointed out that in fact, they cannot. (Or rather, challenged anyone to demonstrate that they could.)

Telonius
2011-02-03, 03:26 PM
Regardless of the items, though, we should really just focus on the spell lists and what a character can accomplish just with fairly standard builds. The other way starts out with wilding clasps but ends up with a Cleric with the Magic domain UMD'ing a partially charged wand. And nobody wants that. :smallbiggrin:

Psyren
2011-02-03, 03:29 PM
for the purposes of this, I have described how they can get access to every single (good) 9th level Cleric spell except Mass Heal or Mass Harm using shapechange.

Which creature has 9th-level Cleric spellcasting as an (Ex) ability?


They came into it because someone else claimed that a Cleric could have Planning, Undeath, and Animal Domains, by virtue of the domain substitution spell. So I pointed out that in fact, they cannot. (Or rather, challenged anyone to demonstrate that they could.)

I'm not sure who that is, nor does it really matter for our discussion, as I never made that claim.

arguskos
2011-02-03, 03:30 PM
Regardless of the items, though, we should really just focus on the spell lists and what a character can accomplish just with fairly standard builds. The other way starts out with wilding clasps but ends up with a Cleric with the Magic domain UMD'ing a partially charged wand. And nobody wants that. :smallbiggrin:
And still being better than the Giamonk. :smalltongue:

Beheld
2011-02-03, 03:37 PM
This is so flawed. Humans have the natural ability to cast spells. Correct. They don't begin to learn spells or gain spells per day UNLESS they take levels in a spellcasting class.

The RAW is not even close to contradictory here. A Solar's spellcasting is a natural ability keyed off of its racial traits as an Angel. It has 22 HD worth of spellcaster levels, and it somewhere along the line has 2 dead levels.

No, what I'm saying is that the specific ability that Wizards gain called "Spellcasting"

Must fall into one of the following categories by RAW:

1) Sp
2) Su
3) Ex
4) Natural ability

Since the ability itself does not duplicate a spell it cannot be 1. If it where 2 or 3, it would be granted by Shapechange. It is also not tagged as 2 or 3. Since this is the case, by RAW, a Human Wizard who takes levels in Wizard has the natural ability "Spellcasting."

Since Natural abilities are "abilities a creature has because of its physical nature" therefore, anyone who has the same "physical nature" as a Human Wizard (all Humans) has the Natural ability "Spellcasting."

The ability that all Humans by RAW have is not "Potential Spellcasting" it is "Spellcasting."

Since I am perfectly fine saying "I don't want to play in a game where spellcasting is given to all humans (and all orcs, ect) I will choose to declare that there are actually five ability categories:

1) Sp
2) Su
3) Ex
4) Natural Abilities
5) Spellcasting

and that 5 shall not be granted by any shapechanging spells."

Or, what I actually do, is just say "Sellcasting is an Ex ability, and Shapechange is banned, because it is so powerful the game breaks. Also Gate. Also Astral Projection."

I agree, by RAW a Solar's spellcasting is a natural ability, and not obtainable by the Druid through Shapechange. But since the Druid already has Wizard and Cleric Casting by virtue of it's own natural abilities until I houserule otherwise, I don't really care.

I also agree with you that for the purpose of this discussion we should assume that everyone is playing with my houserule, and that therefore Druid have no Wizard or Cleric casting naturally, and cannot obtain a Solar's casting through shapechange.


Which creature has 9th-level Cleric spellcasting as an (Ex) ability?

The Lilitu, As I already state when this divergence first came up.


I'm not sure who that is, nor does it really matter for our discussion, as I never made that claim.

Well, in the future, instead of assuming that when I quote someone else, and then respond to the quoted portion, it is about you, and responding to it, just let it go.

Point:

Someone else

Me addressing someone else <--- don't address this if you don't understand the context of it.

You addressing me

Me addressing you <---- this is going to be assuming the same context as the post I just made that you responded to.

Your post

This post.

It does matter for our discussion. And by our, I mean me, and Gullintanni. And when you address something I said to Gullintanni, The context of the conversation with him still applies.

Psyren
2011-02-03, 03:45 PM
Since Natural abilities are "abilities a creature has because of its physical nature" therefore, anyone who has the same "physical nature" as a Human Wizard (all Humans) has the Natural ability "Spellcasting."


Here is the crux of your mistake. The exact wording is as follows:

"This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like."

Natural Abilities encompass "physical nature" abilities, but those are NOT the totality of the term "Natural Ability."

EDIT: I found the Lilitu, and it gets an Ex ability called Mock Divinity that lets it mimic a 9th-level cleric's spellcasting. So you can get that, which gives you 5th-level spells, not 9th-level spells. Is there another monster I don't know about?

Optimator
2011-02-03, 05:18 PM
MY DM ruled, and I agree with him, that one doesn't get spellcasting from Shapechange for the same reason you don't get the creature's BAB and stuff. The spellcasting is a learned ability specific to the individual, not it's form. Kind of like not being able to turn into a Warblade troll, but normal trolls are fair game. Makes things more fair and balanced as well as making sense.

Beheld
2011-02-03, 05:35 PM
EDIT: I found the Lilitu, and it gets an Ex ability called Mock Divinity that lets it mimic a 9th-level cleric's spellcasting. So you can get that, which gives you 5th-level spells, not 9th-level spells. Is there another monster I don't know about?

Um... Do you ever even bother to read what I type?

Here's some things that I've already said:

"In fact, I specifically pointed out that for the purposes of this conversation, I am assuming that Shapechange does not get spellcasting of 17th level or higher. Though I know of how it can get at the very least 9th level casting."

The Lilitu, granting 9th level Cleric casting, is the example to which I am pointing. Why would you be missing a Monster?

Psyren
2011-02-03, 05:40 PM
The Lilitu, granting 9th level Cleric casting, is the example to which I am pointing. Why would you be missing a Monster?

You said:


I have described how they can get access to every single (good) 9th level Cleric spell except Mass Heal or Mass Harm using shapechange.

A Lilitu evidently cannot do this, as 9th-level clerics cannot cast 9th-level spells. Therefore, I must be missing a monster that can grant this spellcasting ability.

And if there are none, then that means there are many outstanding cleric spells Druids cannot access - at this point, everything 6th-level and higher that is not on the Druid list. Meanwhile, Clerics can access a large swath of the Druid list through domains, including spells up to 9th-level. Therefore, Clerics have the better list.

Beheld
2011-02-03, 06:22 PM
A Lilitu evidently cannot do this, as 9th-level clerics cannot cast 9th-level spells. Therefore, I must be missing a monster that can grant this spellcasting ability.

Name a spell, I'll tell you what Monster gives the ability or equivalent. I've already mentioned many of them. I was only doing 9th level spells that Shapechange gives, because obviously if you are using Shapechange to get it, and it's an eight level Cleric spell, then you are behind. But of course, a Druid with Shapechange can cast any 8th level or lower Wizard spell or any 6th level or lower Cleric spell, or any Cleric spell that appears at level 6 or lower on any other spell list.


And if there are none, then that means there are many outstanding cleric spells Druids cannot access - at this point, everything 6th-level and higher that is not on the Druid list. Meanwhile, Clerics can access a large swath of the Druid list through domains, including spells up to 9th-level. Therefore, Clerics have the better list.

Clerics can have one spell slot of each level dedicated to obtaining one of two spells which in really good domains gives a maybe 3-4 spells that are off a non Cleric list and are worth casting over the course of all nine spell levels.

Druids have a superior list in every respect except HP healing, and all Druids get the whole thing without pretending to have 12 different domains depending on what spells are in question.

You keep trying to claim that by having two domains numbering of up to 8 of the Druids good but not even best spells the Cleric has a better list. That's not how this works.

Psyren
2011-02-03, 06:34 PM
Name a spell, I'll tell you what Monster gives the ability or equivalent.

And while the druid is shifting once per round to access these various abilities, the cleric is simply casting two of them per round of his choice (Swift + Standard.) You are also behind a standard at the beginning of combat for your first shift.


Clerics can have one spell slot of each level dedicated to obtaining one of two spells which in really good domains gives a maybe 3-4 spells that are off a non Cleric list and are worth casting over the course of all nine spell levels.

Spontaneous Domain Casting = more than one slot/level.


You keep trying to claim that by having two domains numbering of up to 8 of the Druids good but not even best spells the Cleric has a better list. That's not how this works.

And you keep trying to claim that a single 9th-level spell - one that Clerics can easily get too - solves all of the deficiencies on the Druid list. At 14, when the Cleric is SoDing with Blasphemy, Harm and Plane Shift, what is the Druid doing? What does the Druid do at 10 when faced with invisible/ethereal foes, without the Cleric to cast True Seeing?

Beheld
2011-02-03, 07:56 PM
And while the druid is shifting once per round to access these various abilities, the cleric is simply casting two of them per round (Swift + Standard.) You are also behind a standard at the beginning of combat for your first shift.

No, because you have Shapechange, so you are under the effect of it all day because it has a duration, before extending, of 2 and a half hours. So you can spend your standard action duplicating 9th level spells without using up spell slots, and your swift action casting quickened druid spells, which are better than quickened Cleric spells. Or you can shift into something with a good swift action ability, and use your own 9th level spells as your standard action to go with whatever swift action ability you use.


Spontaneous Domain Casting = more than one slot/level.

So you can spend a feat and all your turn attempts to cast those spells a few more times a day, and still only have 4-6 of the good spells that Druids already had.


And you keep trying to claim that a single 9th-level spell - one that Clerics can easily get too - solves all of the deficiencies on the Druid list. At 14, when the Cleric is SoDing with Blasphemy, Harm and Plane Shift, what is the Druid doing? What does the Druid do at 10 when faced with invisible/ethereal foes, without the Cleric to cast True Seeing?

No, I'm saying that the Druid list doesn't have these deficiencies you are so worried about.

At level 14, the Druid is using actually good spells like Swamp Lung, Mass Flesh to Salt, Great Worm of the Earth, Rain of Roses, or since half your examples were level 5 spells, Mummify, Drown, Flesh to Salt, Phantasmal Disorientation, Hungry Gizzard, Freeze, Baleful Polymorph, Control Winds, Blizzard, Chocking Sands, Call Avalanche, and his Djinn ally can be using Plane Shift on people while he does this, and yes, if Holy Word were actually a good spell, instead of a crappy one, he could use Word of Balance. But since he doesn't waste time on spells with abysmal success rate, he doesn't need to deal with that.

Of course, he could also just cast Kelpstrand, a level 2 spell that is better than most spells a Cleric will ever have, and certainly better than the three you listed (at least for dealing with enemies).

I don't know, how about being a Wisdom based spell caster with Spot and Listen as class skills and Listening Lorecall and Raptor Eyes on his spell list he just has a bonus so absurdly high he always detects them, and even if he didn't pinpoint them, he could cast Faerie Fire, and use a level 1 slot and be more effective than the Cleric using a level 5 slot and 100gp. Or he could cast the spell Blindsight. Or, he could use the blindsight and blindsense he already has from having cast Listening Lorecall.

But sure, you can prepare True Seeing every day in your highest slot for invisible enemies, and the Druid can use no spells at all and be better, or use a second level buff spell and be better.

Psyren
2011-02-03, 08:19 PM
No, because you have Shapechange, so you are under the effect of it all day because it has a duration, before extending, of 2 and a half hours. So you can spend your standard action duplicating 9th level spells without using up spell slots, and your swift action casting quickened druid spells, which are better than quickened Cleric spells.

Quite apart from the fact that you're still convinced that Druid spells are somehow "better" (despite getting many key effects, like True Seeing and Heal, after Clerics do), you're still relying on a spell that Clerics can easily get as your linchpin of your argument. Thus, it cannot be.


So you can spend a feat and all your turn attempts to cast those spells a few more times a day, and still only have 4-6 of the good spells that Druids already had.

*shrug*
What else am I going to do with my turn attempts and feats? Make skeletons shake for a few rounds? Learn a martial weapon? I'd rather be quickening and persisting 9ths.

Saying "you spent all your feats!" makes no sense. Feats were meant to be used. Using them on powerful abilities isn't a deficiency.


At level 14, the Druid is using actually good spells like Swamp Lung, Mass Flesh to Salt, Great Worm of the Earth, Rain of Roses, or since half your examples were level 5 spells, Mummify, Drown, Flesh to Salt, Phantasmal Disorientation, Hungry Gizzard, Freeze, Baleful Polymorph, Control Winds, Blizzard, Chocking Sands, Call Avalanche,

There are, what, 3 core spells on that list? Should I go book diving for the great cleric spells too? And the good Wizard spells while I'm at it, thanks to domains or Divine Magician.


and his Djinn ally can be using Plane Shift on people

The thread is about the Druid's spell list, not that of his "djinn ally,"


and yes, if Holy Word were actually a good spell, instead of a crappy one, he could use Word of Balance. But since he doesn't waste time on spells with abysmal success rate, he doesn't need to deal with that.

It is trivial to raise caster level into the stratosphere. Case in point: Greater Consumptive Field, another spell Druids do not get.


I don't know, how about being a Wisdom based spell caster with Spot and Listen as class skills

Clerics have all that too.
None of the rest help you against illusions either.

dextercorvia
2011-02-03, 09:12 PM
So you can spend a feat and all your turn attempts to cast those spells a few more times a day, and still only have 4-6 of the good spells that Druids already had.

Spontaneous Domain Casting is an ACF, it replaces spontaneous healing/inflicting. It doesn't cost a feat or turn attempts.

Beheld
2011-02-03, 09:12 PM
Quite apart from the fact that you're still convinced that Druid spells are somehow "better" (despite getting many key effects, like True Seeing and Heal, after Clerics do), you're still relying on a spell that Clerics can easily get as your linchpin of your argument. Thus, it cannot be.

No, I've named many of the superior Druid spells, you just choose to pretend they don't exist, and claim that the fact that 1 out of every 200 Clerics takes the animal domain makes up for the fact that Druids always get Shapechange, and 1 out of 200 Clerics get it once a day.


*shrug*
What else am I going to do with my turn attempts and feats? Make skeletons shake for a few rounds? Learn a martial weapon? I'd rather be quickening and persisting 9ths.

Do you even know what you are saying. You are saying "I can just spend turn undead attempts and feat to spontaneously cast domain spells" because obviously what else are you going to do with them, then you immediately suggest a much better use, persisting and quickening spells with DMM. That's two or three feats on metamagic, one or two feats on DMM X, and the rest on extra turning would be a better use then spending two more feats on Spontaneous Divination for your two domains (another thing not compatible with Substitute Domain spell) and in result having less Persisted or Quickened spells.

Obviously blowing feats and turn attempts on that instead of DMM is a huge opportunity cost.


There are, what, 3 core spells on that list? Should I go book diving for the great cleric spells too? And the good Wizard spells while I'm at it, thanks to domains or Divine Magician.

Please do. Please go book dive in order to find out that you actually can't get spells that good. Remember to present an actual character build, not just list 14 domains each with a spell you want.


The thread is about the Druid's spell list, not that of his "djinn ally,"

If only this planeshifting genie were somehow part of the Druids spell list, then the thread would be about the Druids djinn ally.

Oh wait, it is. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyV.htm)


It is trivial to raise caster level into the stratosphere. Case in point: Greater Consumptive Field, another spell Druids do not get.

It is not trivial, it requires a significant money investment, or game breaking cheese. And yes, Druids can also use Bag of rat tricks too, or any other cheese. Level 9 Druids can Gate in Efferti and wish for an item of +arbitrary number to Caster level, and no one cares, because game breaking cheese is game breaking cheese.


Clerics have all that too.
None of the rest help you against illusions either.

Maybe you should look up the spells? Faerie Fire, Druid 1, Listening Lorecall, Druid 2, Ranger 2, Essence of the Raptor, Druid 4, Note that none of these long duration blindsense, blindsight, scent granting spells are Cleric spells. Or present in any Domains. Also not that Clerics do not have Listen or Spot as class skills.

Bottom line, when a Druid at level 10 uses his +39 listen mod to detect someone invisible, and then moves to within 30ft and knows where they are, and then uses a level 1 spell to completely negate their invisibility for the entire party, the Cleric can use his +15 listen modifier to never notice, and then, after he gets stabbed, he can use a 5th level slot and 100gp to negate the invisibility for just him.

But yes, those spells don't deal with illusions, except that scent blindsense and blindsight alert you to the illusionary nature of most illusions, but yes, if you know that you are dealing with illusions for any reason besides making a will save with your wisdom based caster with a good will save you would be able to cast the spell to deal with it. But of course, if you made the save, the True seeing doesn't really do much.


Spontaneous Domain Casting is an ACF, it replaces spontaneous healing/inflicting. It doesn't cost a feat or turn attempts.

Where would that be? Because Domain Spontaneity is a feat that requires turn attempts to fuel and applies to a single picked domain. It's in Complete Divine. Spontaneous Domain Casting the ACF is where?

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-03, 09:45 PM
The druid spells are more fun. The cleric has more power at the top of the curve. But it really is all about the bards.

Psyren
2011-02-03, 10:00 PM
No, I've named many of the superior Druid spells, you just choose to pretend they don't exist, and claim that the fact that 1 out of every 200 Clerics takes the animal domain makes up for the fact that Druids always get Shapechange, and 1 out of 200 Clerics get it once a day.

I know they exist. I'm simply too lazy to go around to various splats digging up Greater Bestow Curse, Holy Star, Greater Plane Shift, Mystic Aegis, Recitation, Delay Death, Spiritual Advisor, Ice Axe, the Visage line, Revivify, Surge of Fortune, Divine Agility, Conviction, Ebon Eyes, Bewildering Substitution, Divine Insight etc. that Druids don't get.


Do you even know what you are saying.
***
Obviously blowing feats and turn attempts on that instead of DMM is a huge opportunity cost.

One Druids can't even pay to begin with.
And please read dextercorvia's post.


Please do. Please go book dive

Done, and that was just a cursory glance from memory, not really that interested in finding more.


If only this planeshifting genie were somehow part of the Druids spell list, then the thread would be about the Druids djinn ally.

Oh wait, it is. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyV.htm)

Yet another spell Clerics can get! But I don't suppose Druids have access to Summon Monster? You just proved my point.


Level 9 Druids can Gate in Efferti and wish for an item of +arbitrary number to Caster level.

I would love to hear this one.

Beheld
2011-02-03, 10:24 PM
I know they exist. I'm simply too lazy to go around to various splats digging up Greater Bestow Curse, Holy Star, Greater Plane Shift, Mystic Aegis, Recitation, Delay Death, Spiritual Advisor, Ice Axe, the Visage line, Revivify, Surge of Fortune, Divine Agility, Conviction, Ebon Eyes, Bewildering Substitution, Divine Insight etc. that Druids don't get.

Here is the list of terrible worthless spells that no one should ever cast in your list: Greater Bestow Curse, Holy Star, Ice Axe, Surge of Fortune, Divine Agility, Ebon Eyes, Divine Insight, Bewildering Substitution.

Here are some buff spells which are about as good, but definitely not better than Druid buff spells: Recitation, Visage line, Conviction.

Delay Death: Is useful in combination with Beastland Ferocity. But that's a Druid spell. Otherwise, it's okay, but not any better than a lot of other reactive blocks.

Revivify: Last Breath is level 4 instead of level 5. Damn that, a Druid winning again.

Greater Planeshift: Is okay but not really great as a spell for transportation, probably better to just use Planeshift plus a teleport. (Oh wait, Clerics can't teleport. Nevermind.) As a save or die, it's just worse than Planeshift and you are wasting a high level slot for nothing.

Mystic Aegis: Does not appear to exist.


One Druids can't even pay to begin with.

Yes, they can. Druids can DMM Persist too.


And please read dextercorvia's post.

Please read my post.


I would love to hear this one.

Via Epic level handbook, there exists a price for any +caster level item, by simply applying the formula of 30,000gpXCL boostedX100,000. As such, merely using a Candle of Invocation, or a scroll of Gate, to gate an efferti to wish for a +whatever you want to CL item is simple. Use the other two wishes for more a scroll of Shapechange and a scroll of gate. Repeat ad infinitum, but get a +whatever you want to every stat, to saves ect. Game breaking cheese is game breaking cheese, and everyone can do it.

Czin
2011-02-03, 10:53 PM
Shapechange doesn't give you spell-like abilities.

edit: wait, my brain fell asleep. What the hell is a Zodar?

An absurdly powerful and absurdly awesome construct from the fiend folio. It is listed as mindless but the way it's described suggests a highly intelligent being. They can use wishes but it is noted that they genereally only use them once a lifetime but can actually use it once a year, They are also famous for being immune to all weapon damage but bludgeoning, which don't get enchantment bonuses against them thus rendering uberchargers powerless against them since they're probably using slashing weapons. They can also double their strength for a turn.

dextercorvia
2011-02-03, 11:25 PM
Where would that be? Because Domain Spontaneity is a feat that requires turn attempts to fuel and applies to a single picked domain. It's in Complete Divine. Spontaneous Domain Casting the ACF is where?

PHBII text

Psyren
2011-02-04, 06:28 AM
Here is the list of terrible worthless spells that no one should ever cast in your list

It was clear to me several pages ago that you simply wanted to argue about this for argument's sake, rather than objectively analyzing the merits of each caster's list. The fact that you can call these highly useful spells "terrible and worthless" without an iota of justification for why this is so, proves that going any further down this road will be a waste of each other's time.

Mystic Aegis, for the record, is in PHB2.


Via Epic level handbook, there exists a price for any +caster level item,

Items are not part of this discussion either. A cleric's spell list (the subject of this thread) gives him the means of massively boosting his caster level, greatly improving the vast majority of his other spells; a Druid's does not.

It was fun while it lasted, but I see no point in continuing this with you. You may have the last word if you wish, but I won't be responding to it.

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-04, 09:43 AM
Mystic Aegis is a nice spell in a pinch.

Beheld
2011-02-04, 10:50 AM
It was clear to me several pages ago that you simply wanted to argue about this for argument's sake, rather than objectively analyzing the merits of each caster's list. The fact that you can call these highly useful spells "terrible and worthless" without an iota of justification for why this is so, proves that going any further down this road will be a waste of each other's time.

Those spells are not highly useful. Hence, terrible and worthless. If anyone wants, I can present justification, but frankly, the idea that anyone ever would cast Greater Bestow Curse when the could cast Final Rebuke is a joke, so I don't feel like this requires justification.


Mystic Aegis, for the record, is in PHB2.

Oh look, it's also terrible and useless. It's a 4th level slot to have Spell resistance against one spell. You know what's way better than that? a 5th level slot to have spell resistance against all spells. Now if you had brought up spell resistance, that would be a good example of a useful spell that Clerics get and Druids don't, but it kinda sucks that I have to do your job for you because you keep naming bad spells.


Items are not part of this discussion either. A cleric's spell list (the subject of this thread) gives him the means of massively boosting his caster level, greatly improving the vast majority of his other spells; a Druid's does not.

A Druids spell list also provides the means for boosting his caster level, and it provides other ways of breaking the game too. But ways to break the game are not good things. They are bad things. It's the same reason the True Namer doesn't become a good class when it gets Gate. It's still a Terrible Class, it's just terrible in a different way. The fact that someone has cheese on their list does not make their list better. It means that they, just like every other full caster, have a list that allows them to destroy games.

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-05, 11:47 AM
I'm not sure why this interesting thread has devolved. I think the OP asks a good question. Perhaps he/she could chime in to let us know with a little more specificity what is sought here.

As I mentioned above, I think Druids have the more interesting spell list and, likely, the stronger spell list overall--until the Cleric gets 8 or 9th level spells. Each class list has specific strengths that the other doesn't get, or doesn't get as well. I don't think there's a clear "winner" here.

I also understand that it is hard to look at the question of spells without looking at the overall character class abilities. It might be the case that one of the spell lists is more well suited to the complementary class abilities (I think it's likely the case that druid's spells complement her other class abilities better). I suppose that it might be interesting to compare spell lists absent any of the complementary class abilities (in which case, it may be the cleric that dominates in more levels than it would have with the other class abilities in mind).

Lans
2011-02-07, 03:36 PM
An absurdly powerful and absurdly awesome construct from the fiend folio. It is listed as mindless but the way it's described suggests a highly intelligent being. They can use wishes but it is noted that they genereally only use them once a lifetime but can actually use it once a year, They are also famous for being immune to all weapon damage but bludgeoning, which don't get enchantment bonuses against them thus rendering uberchargers powerless against them since they're probably using slashing weapons. They can also double their strength for a turn.
Zodars sound awesome, I should really find out more about them than the supernatural wish

Akal Saris
2011-02-07, 05:54 PM
For those using MMV to state that spellcasting is (Ex) based on the creatures there, I will point out that the Hobgoblin Warsoul (with (Ex) casting as a 4th level wizard) is specifically warped by arcane rituals to have magical power. In contrast, the Hobgoblin Duskblade does not have the (Ex) tag for his spell-casting, which suggests that the Warsoul is an exceptional case, not the "new standard."

For those arguing that spell-casting is a natural ability, I won't comment. I think the implication that every solar has 17th level spell-casting would make it a natural characteristic of being partly divine, but I can certainly support ruling the other way simply for balance reasons.

Thurbane
2011-02-07, 08:32 PM
For those using MMV to state that spellcasting is (Ex) based on the creatures there, I will point out that the Hobgoblin Warsoul (with (Ex) casting as a 4th level wizard) is specifically warped by arcane rituals to have magical power. In contrast, the Hobgoblin Duskblade does not have the (Ex) tag for his spell-casting, which suggests that the Warsoul is an exceptional case, not the "new standard."
I'm pretty sure this argument (that spellcasting = Ex because of 1 or 2 very specific monster abilities) was pretty throughly debunked here a few months back, when it first surfaced. I'll have a search for the thread in question...

Beheld
2011-02-07, 09:57 PM
I'm pretty sure this argument (that spellcasting = Ex because of 1 or 2 very specific monster abilities) was pretty throughly debunked here a few months back, when it first surfaced. I'll have a search for the thread in question...

I'm pretty sure that that was never anyones argument. I think the only one was that some specific monsters have Ex casting, therefore Shapechange can grant some casting.

Thurbane
2011-02-07, 10:22 PM
I'm pretty sure that that was never anyones argument. I think the only one was that some specific monsters have Ex casting, therefore Shapechange can grant some casting.
Not having much luck on the search, but in the particular case I'm thinking of (not this thread), I am pretty sure that was someone's argument...

Zaydos
2011-02-07, 11:42 PM
I still find the argument that Reincarnate is as good as Raise Dead really unconvincing. I've never played with someone who'd rather be reincarnated than raised unless they were in a position where they couldn't be raised indefinitely unless they were reincarnated. I'd rather bite level loss than deal with reincarnation. So last breath at Lv 4 <<<<<<<< Revivify at Lv 5.

Also I've yet to see the examples of Su abilities that do 9th level cleric spells. Since apparently there were some but they weren't listed except for Zodar which requires the Fiend Folio to be allowed (3.0 material) and for the DM to allow Zodar to even exist and even then it's a 1/year ability.

Also what all creatures do have casting as an Ex ability?

Psyren
2011-02-08, 12:31 AM
The example given (the Lilitu) doesn't even have "Spellcasting (Ex)." It has an ability called "Mock Divinity (Ex)" that specifically grants it spellcasting as a 9th-level cleric. Unless every creature has Mock Divinity, it's clear that the ability in question is specific to Lilitus, and you will only gain it by becoming one of them.

LordBlades
2011-02-08, 05:58 AM
I still find the argument that Reincarnate is as good as Raise Dead really unconvincing. I've never played with someone who'd rather be reincarnated than raised unless they were in a position where they couldn't be raised indefinitely unless they were reincarnated. I'd rather bite level loss than deal with reincarnation. So last breath at Lv 4 <<<<<<<< Revivify at Lv 5.



For many characters, especially ones with mental stat bonuses/physical stat penalties, reincarnate is actual beneficial since you get to keep the important stuff, while possibly losing penalties. Take a let's say a Grey elf(-2 str -2 con +2 dex +2 int) wizard that dies and gets reincarnated. There is exactly 12% chance not to get rid of Con penalty, and a 26% chance of actually getting a Con bonus.

For me at least, I always prefer Reincarnate to Raise Dead, except when I either play a certain race for mechanical reasons(like playing a goliath melee char for the Str bonus and Powerful build) or when my char has a very good in-character reasons to value his race more than 4000 gp.

Gnaeus
2011-02-08, 08:29 AM
For me at least, I always prefer Reincarnate to Raise Dead, except when I either play a certain race for mechanical reasons(like playing a goliath melee char for the Str bonus and Powerful build) or when my char has a very good in-character reasons to value his race more than 4000 gp.

Me too. If I have the choice (like on an archivist or chameleon), I always memorize reincarnate instead of raise dead. I wish I could get the AD&D reincarnate tables back, where you could become a centaur or a badger.

dextercorvia
2011-02-08, 11:01 AM
If you shapechange into something with Mock Divinity or other spellcasting as an Ex ability, wouldn't you still need to prepare spells at a specific time of day, or rest for 8 hours,etc? Just because you get the form with the ability to cast spells doesn't mean that you have everything filled up and ready to go.

Beheld
2011-02-09, 11:25 AM
I'd rather bite level loss than deal with reincarnation. So last breath at Lv 4 <<<<<<<< Revivify at Lv 5.

I'd rather turn my Grey Elf Wizard into a Dwarf, or my Anthro bat Druid into an anything.


Also I've yet to see the examples of Su abilities that do 9th level cleric spells. Since apparently there were some but they weren't listed except for Zodar which requires the Fiend Folio to be allowed (3.0 material) and for the DM to allow Zodar to even exist and even then it's a 1/year ability.

First of all, Zodar Wish is not once per year, it's once per round, because there is nothing stopping you from free action shifting into a different Zodar each round. And the Fiend Folio was updated to 3.5, so according to the RAW 3.5 rules, it's game as much as anything in any MM.

Secondly, the named 9th level Cleric spells earlier in the thread where "Implosion, Energy Drain, Astral Projection, Miracle" to which the response was "Bodak (or like sixteen other death save things, including Basilisk or Slaad or just casting a Druid spell), Shadow Dragon or Shadow Golem, Nightmare, Zodar"

Lans
2011-02-09, 12:45 PM
Energy Drain... the response was ...Black Dragon
I think you mean Shadow Dragon? Which offers a save so it might not be as good.

Beheld
2011-02-09, 07:37 PM
I think you mean Shadow Dragon? Which offers a save so it might not be as good.

Yes, it does have a save, on the other hand a 9th level Druid spell lets you do 5 negative levels in an AoE with a reflex for half 600 times per CL (and offering unparalleled diversity).

A level 9 Cleric spells offers 2d4 (average 5) negative levels to one single target, and nothing else, for that same slot.

I know which one impresses me more, and it ain't Energy Drain.

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-09, 08:36 PM
Yes, it does have a save, on the other hand a 9th level Druid spell lets you do 5 negative levels in an AoE with a reflex for half 600 times per CL (and offering unparalleled diversity).

A level 9 Cleric spells offers 2d4 (average 5) negative levels to one single target, and nothing else, for that same slot.

I know which one impresses me more, and it ain't Energy Drain.

To which druid spell are you referring?

Psyren
2011-02-09, 08:40 PM
To which druid spell are you referring?

He's referring to Shapechange, which Clerics can easily get too :smallsigh:

Beheld
2011-02-09, 08:45 PM
To which druid spell are you referring?

Perhaps you should follow the line of conversation before asking questions about it? Anyone who was keeping track of the last three posts should know the answer to that.



He's referring to Shapechange, which Clerics can easily get too :smallsigh:


This is false, Clerics cannot easily get Shapechange.

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-09, 09:02 PM
Perhaps you should follow the line of conversation before asking questions about it? Anyone who was keeping track of the last three posts should know the answer to that.

There's no call for being obnoxious, now. I have been reading the thread and it was not clear what you were talking about, which is why I asked such a straight forward question. It was not clear to me that you were referring to Shapechange, which on its face does not produce the effects you described. You've been making many propositions in this thread--most of which have been true, others have been less directly so--so I wanted to be sure I understood how you were getting to five negative levels as an AoE effect from a 9th level spell. Rather than casting aspersions, it would just be easier to explain yourself and support your position with the facts as you understand them. You've done a generally nice job of that so far, only faltering when you've resorted to unnecessary personal attacks.

Psyren
2011-02-09, 09:26 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#animalDomain

Optimator
2011-02-09, 09:40 PM
If one doesn't care about their character's fluff, then taking the Animal Domain for Shapechange seems like an easy thing to do. The same attitude toward one's character might make them think their race isn't as important, fluff-wise, and would prefer Reincarnate and Last Breath over Raise Dead and Revivify.

Beheld
2011-02-10, 07:26 AM
If one doesn't care about their character's fluff, then taking the Animal Domain for Shapechange seems like an easy thing to do. The same attitude toward one's character might make them think their race isn't as important, fluff-wise, and would prefer Reincarnate and Last Breath over Raise Dead and Revivify.

Taking the animal domain for shapechange is a really dumb thing to do unless you start play at level 17.

The animal domain is an objectively terrible domain at every level before 17, and any Cleric that never reaches level 17 and has the animal domain is a terrible character that sucks.

As for your assertion, teh what? You race isn't important if your race isn't important. Some dwarves really want to remain dwarves because they are racist, but there is no reason for an anthro bat to want to stay and anthro bat so much that they give up money and stats to do it. Anthro bats don't have societies, so they aren't racist. It's not ignoring fluff that makes people prefer reincarnate. It's not being racist. If you have race specific tactics/feats, or you do something physical that your race is good at, like being an orc and swording really hard, then it matters, but the idea that someone dies, comes back to life, and complains that they were reborn in a different body that is physically stronger and more enduring but looks different is really weird.

LordBlades
2011-02-10, 08:12 AM
If one doesn't care about their character's fluff, then taking the Animal Domain for Shapechange seems like an easy thing to do. The same attitude toward one's character might make them think their race isn't as important, fluff-wise, and would prefer Reincarnate and Last Breath over Raise Dead and Revivify.

In some cases race is important for a character, in others it's not. Take a druid for example: from a certain level onward, especially if adventuring, he'd be spending 90% of his time as some animal or other. How much relevance would his humanoid body have for somebody like that? same goes for a wizard, between Alter Self, Polymorph, Magic Jar and the like, Astral Projection etc, when you can alter the reality pretty much the way you feel like, how much do you still care about your 'base' body?

Psyren
2011-02-10, 09:18 AM
It's laughable that the "terrible character that sucks" still has access to the full cleric list, plus at least one other domain of his choosing, and can still pick up the Druid's super-amazing trick if he really wants to - which he doesn't even have to do to be tier 1.

Personally I'd rather have Gate baseline than Shapechange. Gate gets you spells and SLAs while Shapechange does not. Gate doubles your actions by giving you a minion. And Gate gives you 40 HD to play with instead of 25. And it's not a domain spell either.

Finally, if the game never gets to 17, Druids don't get Shapechange either, making it a non-argument.

Beheld
2011-02-10, 09:51 AM
It's laughable that the "terrible character that sucks" still has access to the full cleric list, plus at least one other domain of his choosing

Just because a Druid is still better than a Cleric even if he blows a feat on skill focus (speak language) doesn`t mean that a druid with that feat doesn`t suck. Likewise, any Cleric that sets a domain on fire for a pile of **** sucks.


, and can still pick up the Druid's super-amazing trick if he really wants to

By setting an entire domain on fire, he can get one of a druids 9th level spells. The one better than everything he has put together And he can cast it once a day. Meanwhile, he is still worse than the Druid at everything.


- which he doesn't even have to do to be tier 1.

This statement is pure gibberish without meaning


Personally I'd rather have Gate baseline than Shapechange. Gate gets you spells and SLAs while Shapechange does not. Gate doubles your actions by giving you a minion. And Gate gives you 40 HD to play with instead of 25. And it's not a domain spell either.

The druid also gets gate. So does the level one Paladin. And they both get it without blowing 5000xp every time they cast it, and they get it in infinite amounts per day. No one is impressed by the ability to break the game.


Finally, if the game never gets to 17, Druids don't get Shapechange either, making it a non-argument.

If the game never gets to level 17, the druid has better spells at every level, and the Druid doesn`t waste a limited ability to get spells that are good and some small buff for nothing. Because it`s not a domain spell, so druids get the good spells at every level no matter what level they start at and without having to choose two domains only to get good spells from.

Psyren
2011-02-10, 10:03 AM
I promised myself I wouldn't get pulled back into this, yet here I am due to a slow workday. Very well, one final response from me.


By setting an entire domain on fire,

How many domains do Druids get, again?


And he can cast it once a day.

After you reread the thread, please read PHB2 pg. 37.
Even without that, I'd rather get Shapechange once (persistable, mind) than Gate and Miracle zero times.


This statement is pure gibberish without meaning

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0


The druid also gets gate. So does the level one Paladin.

The thread is about spell lists, not items.
Also - Gate is only 1k xp, you're thinking of Wish when you say 5.
And XP is a river anyways.


the druid has better spells at every level

You have not proven this, nor can you.

Gullintanni
2011-02-10, 10:32 AM
You would do yourself much credit to debate within the realm of objectivity and impartiality. It's pretty clear to me that you have a strong personal bias, and you're not making even a tiny effort to fact check or weigh the merits of opposing arguments before you attack your opponents' points (And sometimes just your opponent). I'm not sure if it's your intent, but you're coming off as arrogant, self-righteous and condescending. Just a word of caution I suppose.



Just because a Druid is still better than a Cleric even if he blows a feat on skill focus (speak language) doesn`t mean that a druid with that feat doesn`t suck. Likewise, any Cleric that sets a domain on fire for a pile of **** sucks.

1. By setting an entire domain on fire, he can get one of a druids 9th level spells. The one better than everything he has put together And he can cast it once a day. Meanwhile, he is still worse than the Druid at everything.

2. This statement is pure gibberish without meaning

3. The druid also gets gate. So does the level one Paladin. And they both get it without blowing 5000xp every time they cast it, and they get it in infinite amounts per day. No one is impressed by the ability to break the game.

4. If the game never gets to level 17, the druid has better spells at every level, and the Druid doesn`t waste a limited ability to get spells that are good and some small buff for nothing. Because it`s not a domain spell, so druids get the good spells at every level no matter what level they start at and without having to choose two domains only to get good spells from.

I will answer your points with a mind to point out the errors therein, not to argue in favor of the cleric spell list. You're obviously not interested in hearing about how the cleric spell list could be good. So on that note:

1. Taking the Animal Domain is hardly optimized, agreed. Given the other available options, Shapechange isn't worth it. That being said, the Cleric is spell list is more than good enough to get from levels 1-17 using a lousy domain the whole way.

2. The tier list is not gibberish. Psyren's point is that a Cleric is Tier 1 through and through, regardless of domains. Their spell list and class features are the basis for their Tier 1 classification. For relevance to this debate, the Cleric spell-list is what permits them to be tier 1, making them game-breakingly powerful. In this respect, the theoretical limits of their power is exactly identical to that of the Druid. Both classes break the game. Both have lots of ways to do it. They're both Tier 1. If you want a quick and dirty answer to whose spell list is better, that's it. They're both Tier 1. Beyond that, additional power is irrelevant.

3. Druids and Paladins don't get Gate. If you're referring to the Candle of Invocation trick, then you're thinking outside the confines of the debate over whose spell list is better. In which case it is not the Cleric spell list that is underpowered, but the Candle that is overpowered...and we all already know that. Also, Gate costs 1000 xp. Objectivity is better served by confirming your facts before you contribute to the debate.

Moreover, we're not discussing who is better at breaking the game, but which spell-list is better. You can't arbitrarily just dismiss Gate because a lot of DMs ban it, because that road goes two ways. A lot of DMs ban Shapechange. IMHO Gate >>> Shapechange, but both are worthy of banning in the hands of munchkin players. Shapechange breaks combat, and Gate breaks everything.

4. Druids get Shapechange. Clerics get Gate. Both are amazing spells. Druids get better self-buffs. Clerics get better party-buffs. Druids get better Blasting, Clerics get better Divinations. Druids get better crowd control, Clerics get better hp and status healing. Of those 6 roles, Blasting, Party Buffs, Self-Buffing, Divination, Control, Healing...both classes can cross-over pretty well into each others areas of expertise once we start including non-core.

Finally: IMHO this is really a wasted exercise at this point. Clerics and Druids are both better at different things. With very little munchkin-fu, a Cleric and a Druid can replicate the majority of each other's abilities and provide answers to just about any situation the other can put forward.

Beheld
2011-02-10, 06:21 PM
How many domains do Druids get, again?

Core only, they get seven, outside Core, who knows how many.


After you reread the thread, please read PHB2 pg. 37.

After you reread PHB2 pg 37, realize that you are giving up spontaneous cures in return for spontaneous casting of a really really really bad domain for 16 levels, just so you can get Shapechange a couple more times per day for 3 levels.


Even without that, I'd rather get Shapechange once (persistable, mind) than Gate and Miracle zero times.

Shapechange gives Gate and Wish (Which is just a better Miracle) so I'd rather just have Shapechange.


http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0

A function call to gibberish does not absolve you of gibberish, a) That tier system doesn't mean anything, and B) even if tiers actually meant something, your statement would still be meaningless.


The thread is about spell lists, not items.

I was talking about the spell.


And XP is a river anyways.

Paying XP in order to obtain X is objectively inferior to getting X for free.


You have not proven this, nor can you.

You are perfectly within your rights to complain that the Cleric list having Divination makes up for the fact that they have inferior Scrying and also inferior Battle Control, debuffs, buffs, and save or dies, and utility at every level. No one will believe you.


You would do yourself much credit to debate within the realm of objectivity and impartiality. It's pretty clear to me that you have a strong personal bias, and you're not making even a tiny effort to fact check or weigh the merits of opposing arguments before you attack your opponents' points

You are incorrect. I do have a strong "personal bias" towards the assertion "Druids have a better spell list than Clerics" just as I have a strong "personal bias" towards the assertion "2+2=4" That I think something is true is not biased. That I think Druids have a better spell list does not come from some strange bias, it comes from comparing the spell lists.


You're obviously not interested in hearing about how the cleric spell list could be good.

Statements like this are attacks on persons much more so than any statement you could find me making in this thread.


1. Taking the Animal Domain is hardly optimized, agreed. Given the other available options, Shapechange isn't worth it. That being said, the Cleric is spell list is more than good enough to get from levels 1-17 using a lousy domain the whole way.

But the question isn't "Is the Cleric spell list good enough to get from levels 1-17?" it is "better than the Druid?" And the answer is no. The Cleric spell list, with any two domains you choose to name is not as good as the Druid spell list on the whole from level 1-20, and will be much worse at a number of levels.

A Fighter may be good enough to get from 1-17, but no one is going to say that he's better than either spell list.


2. The tier list is not gibberish.

Yes, it is. Saying the Cleric is Tier 1 doesn't actually mean anything at all, other than that some people like it. A measure of it's power, or the power of it's spell list is a question that is not answered even the slightest by the Tier list.


3. Druids and Paladins don't get Gate. If you're referring to the Candle of Invocation trick, then you're thinking outside the confines of the debate over whose spell list is better. In which case it is not the Cleric spell list that is underpowered, but the Candle that is overpowered...and we all already know that.

I was not referring to a Candle of Invocation at all. Paladins get Gate as a class feature, and Druids get it as a function of the spell Shapechange. Thus, for the purpose of a discussion of the Druid spell list, anyone who claims the Druid doesn't get Gate from it's spell list is incorrect (though the statement "The spell Gate is not on the Druid list" is correct, it has no more bearing than the statement "The spell Basilisk's Gaze is not on the Druid spell list.")


Moreover, we're not discussing who is better at breaking the game, but which spell-list is better. You can't arbitrarily just dismiss Gate because a lot of DMs ban it, because that road goes two ways. A lot of DMs ban Shapechange. IMHO Gate >>> Shapechange, but both are worthy of banning in the hands of munchkin players. Shapechange breaks combat, and Gate breaks everything.

It is at least possible to play the game with a shapechange casting character, it is literally impossible to play the game at all once Gate has been invoked. That's a pretty big difference. The existence of Gate on a spell list is not of any importance however precisely because using Gate from a spell list is a one time affair anyway. It is a waste of XP if you ever cast Gate from your actual spell list more than the one time it takes to get three scrolls of Gate, which can each be turned into three more scrolls of gate, until you have infinite scrolls of gate. So the fact that it takes one round longer for the Druid to get infinite uses of Gate then the Cleric is pretty much a waste of everyone's time.


4. Druids get Shapechange. Clerics get Gate. Both are amazing spells. Druids get better self-buffs. Clerics get better party-buffs. Druids get better Blasting, Clerics get better Divinations. Druids get better crowd control, Clerics get better hp and status healing. Of those 6 roles, Blasting, Party Buffs, Self-Buffing, Divination, Control, Healing...both classes can cross-over pretty well into each others areas of expertise once we start including non-core.

Clerics don't get better Divination. Druids have better divination in one area, and Clerics in another. Clerics also don't have better status healing, and they don't have better HP healing at some spell levels.

Druids are better at:

Blasting, Battle Control, debuffs, save or dies, locating people, buffing themselves, buffing anyone who happens to be an animal.

Clerics are better at answering questions not about people. Buffing people who are not themselves or animals. Most of the time healing HP (assuming they didn't take spontaneous domain casting) Much later, arguably better at healing status effects.

You'll notice the Druid list contains "everything having to do with combat." and the Cleric list contains "Half of the non combat stuff, but not all of it."

Someone can argue that being slightly different from the Druid out of combat justifies the complete and total inferiority in combat. But people who don't already think the Cleric is better are not going to buy that.

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-12, 10:23 AM
4. Druids get Shapechange. Clerics get Gate. Both are amazing spells. Druids get better self-buffs. Clerics get better party-buffs. Druids get better Blasting, Clerics get better Divinations. Druids get better crowd control, Clerics get better hp and status healing. Of those 6 roles, Blasting, Party Buffs, Self-Buffing, Divination, Control, Healing...both classes can cross-over pretty well into each others areas of expertise once we start including non-core.

This is a nice summary.

candycorn
2011-02-12, 10:38 AM
Yeah, but with shapechange, a druid gets all those spells, or spell like abilities, or use a Gate to summon something with those abilities, no problem. Shapechange, thanks to the Rules Compendium, pretty much gives anyone has it RAW access to virtually every spell ever printed, and every power or magical effect that miracle/wish can duplicate.

Yup. Casts spells as a cleric... Which means 8 hours of rest, and prayer at a specific time of the day to get spells. Gaining the ability to cast does not equal "lemme write up a spell list and I'll have my free miracle next round". It means you gain the ability. It doesn't say the slots are immediately available, and it doesn't bypass the need to memorize.

Then there's the ability of Clerics to cast Shapechange as well (it is a domain spell).

Psyren
2011-02-12, 10:41 AM
I'm still waiting for the Rules Compendium cite that states Shapechange grants you SLAs and spells. The text for Shapechange in RC (pg. 26) is identical to what's on the SRD.

Also, Animal is NOT the only domaiin that grants Shapechange - I merely cited that one since it's core. Limbo and Scalykind have it as well.

Beheld
2011-02-12, 11:49 AM
I'm still waiting for the Rules Compendium cite that states Shapechange grants you SLAs and spells. The text for Shapechange in RC (pg. 26) is identical to what's on the SRD.

Since no one is claiming that it does, except of course, spells with the Ex tag, that's not at issue.


Also, Animal is NOT the only domaiin that grants Shapechange - I merely cited that one since it's core. Limbo and Scalykind have it as well.

Scalykind is kinda meh, I wouldn't take it unless I knew the DM was going to let me abuse the rebuking. Limbo has a bad granted power, but like all the Planar domains, is a good choice for spells. So yes, Chaotic Neutral Clerics who intend to reach level 17 at some point would not be going wrong to take the Limbo domain.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-12, 12:05 PM
Just in terms of spontaneous casting, healing isn't always going to be useful. Summoning minions is always going to be useful.

Psyren
2011-02-12, 12:09 PM
Just in terms of spontaneous casting, healing isn't always going to be useful. Summoning minions is always going to be useful.

Which is why you always use Spontaneous Domain Casting if it's available in your campaign.

Beheld
2011-02-12, 12:53 PM
Which is why you always use Spontaneous Domain Casting if it's available in your campaign.

With what Domain? Most domains don't offer summoning. I'd rather have spontaneous curing than spontaneous debuffs or buffs.

On the other hand, Spontaneous Travel is pure unadulterated gold. Or Spell would be pretty good.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-12, 01:18 PM
Spontaneous Divine Magician is kinda nuts

dextercorvia
2011-02-12, 09:54 PM
With what Domain? Most domains don't offer summoning. I'd rather have spontaneous curing than spontaneous debuffs or buffs.

On the other hand, Spontaneous Travel is pure unadulterated gold. Or Spell would be pretty good.

Spell is better than Travel for SDC. Time is awesome, granting Foresight as an 8th level spell, also Haste, Permanency, Contingency, and Timestop.

Beheld
2011-02-13, 09:30 AM
Spell is better than Travel for SDC. Time is awesome, granting Foresight as an 8th level spell, also Haste, Permanency, Contingency, and Timestop.

That actually seems really bad for Spontaneous Domain. Contingency and Permanency are off day spells, why would you want them spontaneous ever? Foresight is once a day, Timestop is good, but not that good (Excellent spell, especially from a domain, but why bother getting it spontaneously.) Haste I could maybe see, but honestly, If you are a Cleric, just use Recitation or Righteous Wrath, whichever is the one that gives extra attack.

Good domain, bad Spontanoues Domain.