poll: Celia, normal person or freaking insane?

[Felixc-91]

so, there has been some talk recently going along the lines of: Celia is how a normal person would act if forced to spend time in the world of D&D/the OotS. so, I'm posing the question to you, our population of "normal" people. if you were in Celia's shoes in the battle with the rogues guild, how would you act? violence, nonviolent support, or other?
reminder: Celia has access to the spell casting abilities of, at least, a 6th level sorcerer.
i personally would do whatever it took (violence wise) to keep Haley and I alive

edit: to clarify, the thread title is not the actual question i meant to ask. the actual question is, would you act like Celia did in the fight with the rogues, what do you think is a reasonable course of action in her situation (for someone who normally lives in a modern 21st century society), given the resources she had access to (lawyer training, low-mid level sorcerer powers)?

[Nimrod's Son]

There's probably going to be quite a few people imagining themselves as kickass warriors in this thread. Whereas if they were actually put in such a situation, they'd likely just find somewhere to hide and have a cry. :smallamused:


i personally would do whatever it took (violence wise) to keep Haley and I alive
...which, judging by Haley and Celia's survival, appears to be "minimal violence". :smallwink:

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm a pretty nonviolent person IRL, so if I was suddenly transported to a D&D world I would probably be running, hiding, and panicking the whole time.

On the other hand, if I had the abilities of a 6th level sorcerer, I'd probably have a bunch of defensive magic that I could use to protect myself with. My spell list would probably be something like: 1-- hold portal, mage armor, charm person, expeditious retreat, 2-- invisibility, knock, 3-- fly. My only offensive spells would be cantrips (and mostly just because ray of frost would be really useful to keep my drinks cold).

EDIT: As for Celia, I don't know to much about what life is like on the elemental plane of air, so I can't really judge if she is "normal" or not. She's pretty normal for the real world, and pretty insane for D&D's typical material plane.

[Cerlis]

agreed son of Nimrod. I agree with her actions. best course of action would have made full attempts at diplomacy, with maybe a readied action to cast web if someone came after her.

Or something. I think the fact that it succeeded speaks for itself. the only hole is if Bozzak where there he probably would not have shown mercy. However, oh so many laws we abide by today are under the impression that people will respond in a quasi-reasonable way.

If we are talking real ethics, then i would compare Celia tearing it up with lighting to be akin to giving teachers guns so they can defend against shooters.

[Deliverance]

My initial reaction was this: there's no way any normal person would act like Celia did in strip #617 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html), so the answer has to be "she's definitely not a normal person - but does that mean she's insane?"

And then it struck me - I was asking the wrong question. Celia isn't a normal person, but she may very well be a normal lawyer.

If you view her actions in that light, the actions in all the strips featuring her make excellent sense. She isn't supposed to be acting like a normal human being would act if transplanted to the OOTS world, she is supposed to act like a lawyer would (and not one of the two joke-lawyers of OOTS, but one who is a lawyer to the bone), and she does so splendidly.

[Burner28]

No way Celia is insane... If anything she is an example of Stupid Good:smallamused:

[Darth Hunterix]

Celia - pure insanity, what kind of person would try using law against a bunch of chaotic evil rouges?

And if I had abilities of 6th level sorcerer it would look like that:

Random Magic Missles!!!!! Random Acid Arrow!!!!!! <evil laugh> RANDOM FIREBALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ooopss... Sorry Mr Epic Fighter, could you at least wait until I replenish my mag... <dies>

[Lvl45DM!]

Insane to not fight at the beginning, genius to work out that Hank was lawful enough for her strategy to work. But at the start of the fight she was frankly nuts to not fight with Haley. I mean who makes themselves BAIT and then refuses to fight back??

I was also pointing out, in another thread, that normal people fight back when threatened with deadly force. Maybe they try to talk it out, but thats before they get to the 'breaking in with a small army and shooting to kill' stage. Once they throw a deadly blow people fight back

[Trazoi]

And then it struck me - I was asking the wrong question. Celia isn't a normal person, but she may very well be a normal lawyer.
That was my take on Celia. Not at all an adventurer but as a lawyer she'll seek the diplomatic way out.


Celia - pure insanity, what kind of person would try using law against a bunch of chaotic evil rouges?
Aw man, you can't make-up with chaotic evil rouges. First blush and it's a mascara.

[King of Nowhere]

well, we're not normale people in regard to this poll. We're roleplaying gamers, which means we are already ready to assume violence as an option, at least when talking about some fantasy-based situation. We know how that world is supposed to work, we know how to use the skills and spells in that worl. Probably celia didn't even knew how her damaging spells worked, just that they hurt and are not to be used against people.
Also, she appears much more pacifist than most people, but overall I would deem her normal. By the way, considering she's not trained to battle, she did an admirable job in keeping her cold blood during the battle.

Personally, assuming I would not panick, I would have used whatever violence I could - those thieves were definitely bad people, so I wouldn't have any qualms about the idea of killing them.
But then, I'm not much a normal person on that aspect. I'm the kind of guy who, when hears in the news something like "robber shot by the police" thinks "good news: one less!".
The only reason I don't suggest a widespread use of vigilante justice is that you can never tell really bad people from people who could be redeemed or people who are acting desperate because they're having bad times.
So I'm not the best person to answer this poll.

[tcrudisi]

Considering she has the ability to cast fairly decent-level spells, I have to think that I would be doing everything I could to help Haley and myself survive.

This isn't some bravado, this is just, "when the chips are down, do you act or hide?" Considering that I've been in high-pressure situations before, I am fortunate to completely retain my mental acuity, so I would help if it was the logical thing to do. Am I saying I would lightning bolt everyone? No way - Rogues have evasion. :smalltongue: Instead, I'd offer tactical support any way I could.

And even better - if one of my allies asked me to trust them about not going to a city, I'd keep my butt out of it!

[Kish]

I was also pointing out, in another thread, that normal people fight back when threatened with deadly force. Maybe they try to talk it out, but thats before they get to the 'breaking in with a small army and shooting to kill' stage. Once they throw a deadly blow people fight back
You are aware that real-world pacifism 1) exists and 2) is not classified as a mental disorder, aren't you?

That said, my answer is "neither." She's clearly not a "normal person," but her sanity compares favorably to--well, either of her two temporary traveling companions, for starters.

[Lvl45DM!]

well, we're not normale people in regard to this poll. We're roleplaying gamers, which means we are already ready to assume violence as an option, at least when talking about some fantasy-based situation. We know how that world is supposed to work, we know how to use the skills and spells in that worl. Probably celia didn't even knew how her damaging spells worked, just that they hurt and are not to be used against people.
Also, she appears much more pacifist than most people, but overall I would deem her normal. By the way, considering she's not trained to battle, she did an admirable job in keeping her cold blood during the battle.

Personally, assuming I would not panick, I would have used whatever violence I could - those thieves were definitely bad people, so I wouldn't have any qualms about the idea of killing them.
But then, I'm not much a normal person on that aspect. I'm the kind of guy who, when hears in the news something like "robber shot by the police" thinks "good news: one less!".
The only reason I don't suggest a widespread use of vigilante justice is that you can never tell really bad people from people who could be redeemed or people who are acting desperate because they're having bad times.
So I'm not the best person to answer this poll.

Or are you more normal than you think? Many people find the idea of vigilante justice appealing but they have the same problem you do, and well you and they should. Celia is irrationally pacifistic, and you my friend are rationally violent :D

[Lvl45DM!]

You are aware that real-world pacifism 1) exists and 2) is not classified as a mental disorder, aren't you?

That said, my answer is "neither." She's clearly not a "normal person," but her sanity compares favorably to--well, either of her two temporary traveling companions, for starters.

Pacifism is a great philosophy in modern society since violence is so rare. But if a man is beating you up and you don't fight back you aren't 'normal'. Celia compounds this abnormality by deliberately drawing attention of fighters and thieves to herself and still refused to fight. Perhaps she isn't insane but she was about to watch Haley die and do nothing to stop it. That is some hardcore sticking to principles right there, wayyy abnormal.

[Kish]

Your repetitive assertion of your viewpoint has opened my eyes to its inarguable correctness.

[TerrickTerran]

She's clearly insane, but then again, she's also very inconsitent from strip to strip as well.

[Burner28]

Hey have you guys ever considered the possibility that maybe... you know, she isn't insane but rather an idiot?

[Swordpriest]

Well, if I was stuck into her situation, I'd likely be trying to avoid all combat. However, that doesn't mean that I'm nattering at, and doing my best to set up some way to vindictively sabotage, a skilled warrior who was doing their best to protect me from a large group of murderers and assassins who were out to kill me. I'd likely be sticking to them like glue and encouraging them like you wouldn't believe.

So I'd like to put in my vote for insane, since I believe pacifism to be a type of suicidal insanity.

[BayardSPSR]

Your repetitive assertion of your viewpoint has opened my eyes to its inarguable correctness.

All I can say is 'yes'.

Yes.

Have a... Have something. Take your pick. I trust you to choose what suits you best.

[Sholos]

Hey have you guys ever considered the possibility that maybe... you know, she isn't insane but rather an idiot?

No, because even a cursory reading of the comic proves that Celia is highly intelligent, if a bit naive. I also don't think she's insane.

[ThePhantasm]

How is this not going to turn into a morality (passivist / non-passivist) thread?

As for Celia, she is just as sane as her friends, the quirky members of the Order of the Stick. People have different characteristics and backgrounds. I don't know why we need these threads with folks going bonkers over each character and their decisions. "Oh my goodness why is Ian so paranoid? Is Celia sane in how she acts in a D&D world?" Good grief folks, people have different characteristics based on their backgrounds, beliefs, culture, upbringing, etc. Its not that novel a concept.

And before anyone says "oh we are doing character analysis in these threads"... no, you are not. These threads are all about "would YOU do this like this character did" or "I'm mad that this character did this". Its all feeling and opinion and reaction, not a real analysis of what makes the characters tick.

[Burner28]

No, because even a cursory reading of the comic proves that Celia is highly intelligent, if a bit naive. I also don't think she's insane.

Right, because what she did in her third appearance(after the trial) clearly demonstrates the fact she is "intelligent":smallamused:

[KingFlameHawk]

Right, because what she did in her third appearance(after the trial) clearly demonstrates the fact she is "intelligent":smallamused:

She has a very high intelligence score, its her wisdom score that is a little low however.

[Sholos]

Right, because what she did in her third appearance(after the trial) clearly demonstrates the fact she is "intelligent":smallamused:

If you'd like to make an actual argument instead of just spouting your opinion, I'll read it and respond. As is, I've seen nothing to indicate stupidity on Celia's part; indeed, everything about her, such as working her way through law school, her performance at the trial, and her ability to come up with a way to work with Hank in a short time frame all speak to a very intelligent individual.

[KingFlameHawk]

In the interest of the subject of the discussion I think I should point out what actually happens during the fight for Celia.

1. Haley and Celia go to fight the Thieves Guild only to learn that as an Outsider Celia can not be raised. Haley tells her to "hang back and stay out of the fighting if you can"
2. Haley gets into trouble with Yor and Hank. Celia, dispite the protests of Roy's ghost (though she can't hear him) Goes out of her way to draw them away. Puting herself in great danger to save Haley.
3. Haley is at the mercy of Bozzok and Crystal, She decideds she can't do anything (she is right) and waits for an opportunity.
4. Belkar saves Haley, Celia gets her out of the line of fire.
5. Celia gets Haley to the place she can get a +5 bow, making her vastly stronger.
6. Celia hangs back during the counter attack but gets captured by Hank and Yor.
7. After some reluctance to use violence Celia negotiates with Hank.
8. Fighting Comes to an end.

To recap 1. She can't be brought back to life 2. She is not a seasoned warrior and the warrior she was with told her to not fight 3. She didn't and more then once saved Haley's life because she acted.

So no she is not a normal person at all. She is a normal Outsider. She is not (as others have said on this and other forums) stupid, insane or a coward. She is smart (though with a low wisdom), rational and brave and best of all an interesting character in the OotS world and remember she is not a PC, she is a NPC, so the world is different for her.

[theNater]

Celia has chosen her principles, and is willing to risk her life to defend those principles. Her refusal to fight at the rogue's guild is no more insane than Roy's willingness to engage Xykon solo to keep the world a place where introverted dwarves, androgynous elves, idiotic bards, greedy rogues, sexy sylphs and raging narcissistic paladins all belong.

[Forum Explorer]

In the interest of the subject of the discussion I think I should point out what actually happens during the fight for Celia.

1. Haley and Celia go to fight the Thieves Guild only to learn that as an Outsider Celia can not be raised. Haley tells her to "hang back and stay out of the fighting if you can"
2. Haley gets into trouble with Yor and Hank. Celia, dispite the protests of Roy's ghost (though she can't hear him) Goes out of her way to draw them away. Puting herself in great danger to save Haley.
3. Haley is at the mercy of Bozzok and Crystal, She decideds she can't do anything (she is right) and waits for an opportunity.
4. Belkar saves Haley, Celia gets her out of the line of fire.
5. Celia gets Haley to the place she can get a +5 bow, making her vastly stronger.
6. Celia hangs back during the counter attack but gets captured by Hank and Yor.
7. After some reluctance to use violence Celia negotiates with Hank.
8. Fighting Comes to an end.

To recap 1. She can't be brought back to life 2. She is not a seasoned warrior and the warrior she was with told her to not fight 3. She didn't and more then once saved Haley's life because she acted.

So no she is not a normal person at all. She is a normal Outsider. She is not (as others have said on this and other forums) stupid, insane or a coward. She is smart (though with a low wisdom), rational and brave and best of all an interesting character in the OotS world and remember she is not a PC, she is a NPC, so the world is different for her.

Very true. She is however naive, but considering that she literally comes from another dimension and what experince she had in this dimension was being locked up in a dungeon that shouldn't be surprising.

She also holds the principle that money is never worth someone else's life. So she wouldn't even veiw that as a betrayal of Haley, but rather as a small cost to pay in order to save so many people.

As for her being a pacifist is unrealistic, pacifists have existed throughout history and in times of conflict.

[Sholos]

Very true. She is however naive, but considering that she literally comes from another dimension and what experince she had in this dimension was being locked up in a dungeon that shouldn't be surprising.

She also holds the principle that money is never worth someone else's life. So she wouldn't even veiw that as a betrayal of Haley, but rather as a small cost to pay in order to save so many people.
This, and everything other people have said.


As for her being a pacifist is unrealistic, pacifists have existed throughout history and in times of conflict.
Well, there's "realistic" and then there's "reasonable". But that's another topic for another board, methinks.

[Darth Hunterix]

She also holds the principle that money is never worth someone else's life. So she wouldn't even veiw that as a betrayal of Haley, but rather as a small cost to pay in order to save so many people.

Well.. In D&D someone's life is worth a cleric with "Rise Dead" and 5000 gp diamond, no more, no less. So if Haley had to pay more than that value muliplied by number of theives... well in that case she has every right to be mad at Celia.

[Reverent-One]

Well.. In D&D someone's life is worth a cleric with "Rise Dead" and 5000 gp diamond, no more, no less. So if Haley had to pay more than that value muliplied by number of theives... well in that case she has every right to be mad at Celia.

Except that Haley had to give a split of all stolen gold to the guild. Does someone really have a right to things that aren't theirs?

[SoC175]

Very true. She is however naive, but considering that she literally comes from another dimension and what experince she had in this dimension was being locked up in a dungeon that shouldn't be surprising. However violence wise the hands of the denizens of the elemental plane of air aren't any cleaner than the hands of the denizens of the prime material plane.

[Reverent-One]

However violence wise the hands of the denizens of the elemental plane of air aren't any cleaner than the hands of the denizens of the prime material plane.

Are you sure that's the case in the OoTS universe? This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html) seems to heavily imply that it isn't.

[SoC175]

Are you sure that's the case in the OoTS universe? This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html) seems to heavily imply that it isn't. Which is why this strip bothered me ever since I read it.

On the plane of air no one is trying to kill you for looking at him funny? Maybe that's because he's already trying to kill you because he belongs to the forces of evil elemental air and does it just for fun. Or maybe he's a dschinn and since you are not you are an inferior being fit only for slavery.

While the elemental plane of air as a plane is neutral, so is the material plane. And look how nice the material plane denizens are to each other.

[Reverent-One]

Which is why this strip bothered me ever since I read it.

On the plane of air no one is trying to kill you for looking at him funny? Maybe that's because he's already trying to kill you because he belongs to the forces of evil elemental air and does it just for fun. Or maybe he's a dschinn and since you are not you are an inferior being fit only for slavery.

While the elemental plane of air as a plane is neutral, so is the material plane. And look how nice the material plane denizens are to each other.

This is a homebrewed world, Rich is free to say what each of the planes are like and we should not say there's something wrong because it doesn't match the default fluff.

[RedCloakLives!]

Neither - she is a totally B-A lawyer. As shown by that episode.

Think about it: who won the battle? Celia.

The guild wanted to kill Haley & co. Haley & co wanted to kill the guild. Celia wanted a peaceful solution, and used her skills/feats (diplomacy/persuasion/intimidate/negotiator/lawyer/etc.) to achieve it -- despite everyone else's normal proclivities.

She bribed the guild using Haley's money! And bossed Haley around. Totally B-A!

(In fact, she probably ranks highly in the TUBA list. Maybe even #2 or #3. No sensible adventuring party would tangle with her - mess with her and you lose half your gold - retroactively! And that's when she's supposedly on your side. Imagine if she was out to get you!)

[MoonCat]

She's Stupid Good in a Chaotic world of Haley's, Smart Good in a Lawful world. The teams reflect their leader, and she had it easier in Roy's for more reasons than she was *ahem* dating the leader.

[Gredival]

I can understand Celia's reluctance to kill. I think anyone from our world deposited in the OotS world would have more... scruples... about killing than the cast.

However I think fight or flight is a basic human instinct. Now for many people it will be flight. However obviously Celia isn't a scared quivering wreck. She has the guts to fight... she just refuses to out of her opposition to killing.

That is what is completely irrational about her behavior. Celia's willingness to put the lives of an aggressive Thieves Guild trying to murder her above her own life is a mark of extreme stupidity and/or extreme insanity. The fact that she refuses to look at the specifics of the situation in her strict adherence to her moral code, I find to be irrational -- this world or OotS.

Morality isn't some vacuum determination, it's always relative. And when you're being grappled and looking up the blade of a sword, I'd say it's pretty moral to bust out some lightning.



And then it struck me - I was asking the wrong question. Celia isn't a normal person, but she may very well be a normal lawyer.

If you view her actions in that light, the actions in all the strips featuring her make excellent sense. She isn't supposed to be acting like a normal human being would act if transplanted to the OOTS world, she is supposed to act like a lawyer would (and not one of the two joke-lawyers of OOTS, but one who is a lawyer to the bone), and she does so splendidly.


Neither - she is a totally B-A lawyer. As shown by that episode.

Think about it: who won the battle? Celia.

The guild wanted to kill Haley & co. Haley & co wanted to kill the guild. Celia wanted a peaceful solution, and used her skills/feats (diplomacy/persuasion/intimidate/negotiator/lawyer/etc.) to achieve it -- despite everyone else's normal proclivities.

She bribed the guild using Haley's money! And bossed Haley around. Totally B-A!

I'm a real-life flesh-and-blood lawyer and I would have fried them. Negotiation is not a rational first course of action when it comes to dealing with people that are trying to kill you and your friends.

Additionally criminal organizations are not exactly the most lawful of organizations that you can rely on to abide by terms of an agreement. The only end up negotiating successfully because a truce and turning on the golem-maker better suited their needs at the time. I wouldn't want to make a binding obligation with such an organization (obviously Haley doesn't care about breaking it but Celia obviously intends for her to keep it)

Also... Truces generally aren't for people who already won. ('http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html') No lawyer settles a case they are guaranteed to win unless doing so has greater returns (from say, saved litigation costs) than the expected judgment. A lawyer's obligation is to his client's interests. At the moment Haley has Bozzok dusted, I would re-negotiate in harder terms and leverage the upperhand. Negotiation may still be in my client's interest because there are still things the guild can do that my side wants (retrieval of Roy's body, sending spells from clerics)... but a contract formed in the middle of a battle we are losing is much different from a contract formed once I figure out we're winning.

[Gift Jeraff]

Celia is a normal person on these boards, i.e. freaking insane.

(And always starts inane ethics debates.)

[dps]

I can understand Celia's reluctance to kill. I think anyone from our world deposited in the OotS world would have more... scruples... about killing than the cast.


I don't have any scruples about killing in self defense--which would have clearly been the case when the Thieves Guild attacked at Pete's house.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm a real-life flesh-and-blood lawyer and I would have fried them. Negotiation is not a rational first course of action when it comes to dealing with people that are trying to kill you and your friends.
It worked, didn't it? For all anyone knows, if Celia had tried to "fry them" they'd have just dodged, and then killed her.


No lawyer settles a case they are guaranteed to win unless doing so has greater returns (from say, saved litigation costs) than the expected judgment.
Replace "litigation costs" with "lives" there and you have exactly what Celia did.

[Gredival]

It worked, didn't it? For all anyone knows, if Celia had tried to "fry them" they'd have just dodged, and then killed her.

Look at what Roy said. The Warrior can't dodge. Fry and fly.

Also? She should have dumped the Kantianism as soon as the battle started, if not right then when they captured her. Didn't have to get that far.


Replace "litigation costs" with "lives" there and you have exactly what Celia did.

Saving Bozzok's life is not a boon to Haley; it is not considered a pro as far as her client is concerned. she was driven by her irrational/stupid ethics, not by "being a lawyer."

The minute I discover the tables have turned, deal is off the table and we're changing the agreement pursuant to an unexpected change in circumstances.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm pointing out she was driven by her irrational/stupid ethics, not by "being a lawyer."
She's using her legal background here, sure, but I see her playing the role of "judge" here much more than "lawyer". As far as Celia's concerned, they're all a bunch of greedy thieves, Haley included, and she wants them all to settle down and stop hurting each other. She's allied with Haley because they share a common goal, but Haley keeping her current level of wealth is clearly of little importance to Celia, particularly in the light of how she gained said wealth.

[Gredival]

She's using her legal background here, sure, but I see her playing the role of "judge" here much more than "lawyer". As far as Celia's concerned, they're all a bunch of greedy thieves, Haley included, and she wants them all to settle down and stop hurting each other. She's allied with Haley because they share a common goal, but Haley keeping her current level of wealth is clearly of little importance to Celia, particularly in the light of how she gained said wealth.

"On behalf of my client..." ('http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html')

This is an assertion that she is legally representing Haley in this dispute. By her words she should be bound to represent the interests of Haley, not her own. We take an oath to represent our clients best interest, not to substitute our own judgment. But that's not what she actually does. Hell she doesn't even have Haley's consent to negotiate as an agent. Haley actually has a decent case for malpractice. Celia never had authorization to negotiate, and Celia didn't correctly explain the terms of the contract (Haley forking over her gold) before Haley consented to it

Furthermore if she is acting as a third party arbitrator, she is either violating numerous ethical laws by also representing Haley's side in the accord or the negotiations are not binding on Haley because there was no one present to bargain on her behalf.

My point is simply her behavior is not excusable or explainable due to her legal background. It comes down to her ethics.

[Forum Explorer]

She doesn't know that the fighter can't dodge. She can't hear Roy.


And I don't think being a pacifist is insane. Some people value their principles over their lives. Basically Celia doesn't want to die but she isn't willing to kill in order to preserve it. I don't think following the instinct of self-preservation to the end can be said to be anymore sane than a person who represses their instincts in order to do something else.

[rewinn]

Saving Bozzok's life is not a boon to Haley; it is not considered a pro as far as her client is concerned. she was driven by her irrational/stupid ethics, not by "being a lawyer."

The minute I discover the tables have turned, deal is off the table and we're changing the agreement pursuant to an unexpected change in circumstances.
I, too, am a lawyer. And, counselor, you're omitting certain facts


Celia didn't know Haley had defeated Bozzek
Neither Celia nor Haley knew how much more combat capability the Theive's Guild had on tap
Celia didn't know that Haley valued her money so much that she was willing to accept the risk that the Guild had 100 mooks ready to roll even if the party made it to the Guild's front door
Killing Bozzek means no help getting Roy's body - which was the 2nd most important objective, after staying alive


Celia's conduct was rational AND successful - so successful that the Guild HELPED get Roy's body! So what if her client was upset because there were things that the client hadn't told her; haven't you ever had one of those? Haley was a TERRIBLE client - so caught up in punishing the other side that she ignored her own interests!

I can't comment on Celia's WIS statistic, but her conduct is not unintelligent and not unwise; at worst, it is sometimes not appropriate to the alien location she visits because her background is so different. Keep in mind that the person with the highest WIS score in the party is Durkon, and he's afraid of trees.

[Gredival]

She doesn't know that the fighter can't dodge. She can't hear Roy.

I know, but she knows the basics of her own spell mechanics presumably. She's down ignorance on the physiological differences between humans and sylphs, not about the limits of her own powers.


And I don't think being a pacifist is insane. Some people value their principles over their lives. Basically Celia doesn't want to die but she isn't willing to kill in order to preserve it. I don't think following the instinct of self-preservation to the end can be said to be anymore sane than a person who represses their instincts in order to do something else.

But she's willing to let Haley kill, and even aids her to an extent. So not only is she stubbornly adhering to an intensely flawed* ethical system, she places an irrational barrier between direct and indirect responsibility for deaths.

*Flawed because Kantianism 1) neglects to take into account circumstances into account and adapt appropriately, 2) because it's unfit especially for the OotS world

[Sholos]

Saving Bozzok's life is not a boon to Haley; it is not considered a pro as far as her client is concerned. she was driven by her irrational/stupid ethics, not by "being a lawyer."
Yeah, stupid ethics getting in the way of a best, one-sided outcome. Not to mention that the deal probably wouldn't have gone through without saving Bozzok; and as Hank said, killing Bozzok would have left a power vacuum that would have harmed even more people.


The minute I discover the tables have turned, deal is off the table and we're changing the agreement pursuant to an unexpected change in circumstances.
The deal had already been struck by the time they got out. As a lawyer, I'm sure "breach of contract" means something to you.

[Gredival]

I, too, am a lawyer. And, counselor, you're omitting certain facts


Celia didn't know Haley had defeated Bozzek
Neither Celia nor Haley knew how much more combat capability the Theive's Guild had on tap
Celia didn't know that Haley valued her money so much that she was willing to accept the risk that the Guild had 100 mooks ready to roll even if the party made it to the Guild's front door
Killing Bozzek means no help getting Roy's body - which was the 2nd most important objective, after staying alive


I am saying that the minute I find Haley about to "ice" Bozzok, I re-negotiate with the upperhand. You're not negotiating for peace anymore, you're negotiating in exchange for Bozzok's life. The guild was beaten. Belkar single-handedly fended off both Bozzok and Crystal, the highest level members of the guild. I think he could have easily trounced Hank and the two lackeys. Haley previously caused everyone else to desert Bozzok by making it apparent to them that they were walking into a death trap ("Hey! Get back here and die for my fleeting tactical advantage!")


Celia's conduct was rational AND successful - so successful that the Guild HELPED get Roy's body! So what if her client was upset because there were things that the client hadn't told her; haven't you ever had one of those? Haley was a TERRIBLE client - so caught up in punishing the other side that she ignored her own interests!

Your responsibility as counsel is to inform your client of what all the legalese in contracts actually mean. You do not get to advise your client to agree while "neglecting to mention" a major aspect of a contract.

You especially don't get to substitute your judgment and values for theirs ("Looks like I just violated your principles all over the place!")

Celia committed textbook malpractice.

[Gredival]

Yeah, stupid ethics getting in the way of a best, one-sided outcome. Not to mention that the deal probably wouldn't have gone through without saving Bozzok; and as Hank said, killing Bozzok would have left a power vacuum that would have harmed even more people.

As a lawyer you are concerned with YOUR client's outcome, not the opposing side's.

I said specifically she should have re-negotiated with more favorable terms on her side. I'm sure Hank is willing to relent on terms once he realizes "Oh hey we actually just lost."


The deal had already been struck by the time they got out. As a lawyer, I'm sure "breach of contract" means something to you.

Celia has no power of agency to agree to the contract. That's why she had to convince Haley to agree to it. Agents can negotiate on your behalf, they cannot sign on your behalf.

And even then it's questionable because Celia has no prior consent from Haley to represent her. This becomes a moot point because consent becomes implicit when she agrees to the contract that Celia negotiated. The problem is Celia's error in failing to fully explain the contract to Haley.

In addition to malpractice against Celia, Haley could probably get out of the contract. Contracts are only valid if there is a consent upon a "mutual meeting of the minds" and the fact that there were terms Haley didn't know about means there was no meeting of the minds.

Non-lawyers are often surprised at just how many contracts get thrown out due to ignorance. Even when the client signs the fine print, many times you can get them out of it by arguing they didn't read the fine print.

[SPoD]

However I think fight or flight is a basic human instinct.


However I think fight or flight is a basic human instinct.


human

Celia is not a human. Celia is not mortal. Celia literally has no connection, biologically or psychologically, to anything we have ever encountered.

Rather than debate whether or not Celia is insane--by the standards of a superficially similar species living in another dimension--why don't we simply look at her and say, "Huh, that is a very different perspective than I would have in that same situation," and be done with it? Why can't we simply appreciate that the author has created a nonhuman character that has philosophies and drives different from those of most humans?

[Forum Explorer]

Celia is not a human. Celia is not mortal. Celia literally has no connection, biologically or psychologically, to anything we have ever encountered.

Rather than debate whether or not Celia is insane--by the standards of a superficially similar species living in another dimension--why don't we simply look at her and say, "Huh, that is a very different perspective than I would have in that same situation," and be done with it? Why can't we simply appreciate that the author has created a nonhuman character that has philosophies and drives different from those of most humans?

Because that's no fun :smalltongue:

On a more serious note you do bring up a good point. Celia can't be raised, does this make her pacifism more or less reasonable? I think more reasonable because people are less likely to kill a known pacifist out of hand. Even in a D&D world. However it is risky because an evil individual like Bozzak or Crystal would chop her up in a second for the XP.

[Gredival]

Celia is not a human. Celia is not mortal. Celia literally has no connection, biologically or psychologically, to anything we have ever encountered.

Rather than debate whether or not Celia is insane--by the standards of a superficially similar species living in another dimension--why don't we simply look at her and say, "Huh, that is a very different perspective than I would have in that same situation," and be done with it? Why can't we simply appreciate that the author has created a nonhuman character that has philosophies and drives different from those of most humans?

The word of the Giant is that Celia is supposed to represent a normal person from our society being plopped into the OotS world.

Rich's comparison implies that Celia needs to be relatively close to human. The physiology isn't so important as the cultural differences which underlie the morals. That's the whole point of the strip where she and Roy talk about mortality. It is supposed to illustrate how her perspective is supposed to be our own because for her, like us, murder isn't a common thing and there is no Raise spell. That's taken for granted for adventurers in the OotS world.

[SPoD]

You know what? Never mind. I just read your signature. You and I will never agree on anything regarding morality or ethics.

[Gift Jeraff]

You know what? Never mind. I just read your signature. You and I will never agree on anything regarding morality or ethics.
No, don't you see?! That's their trick! Make you think there can be no convincing them otherwise, so now they've "won" the very important Internet debate!

[Nimrod's Son]

"On behalf of my client..." ('http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html')

This is an assertion that she is legally representing Haley in this dispute. By her words she should be bound to represent the interests of Haley, not her own.
I hadn't missed that line; I simply don't consider it relevant. Celia is not ACTUALLY Haley's lawyer, so whatever you think about "malpractice" and Haley's rights etc. is irrelevant. I said she was more like a judge than a lawyer in the scenario, regardless of how she phrases things. Obviously in actual fact she is neither.


I am saying that the minute I find Haley about to "ice" Bozzok, I re-negotiate with the upperhand. You're not negotiating for peace anymore, you're negotiating in exchange for Bozzok's life.
:smallsigh: Dude, it's precisely that kind of attitude that makes most people hate lawyers. Celia wanted what was fair, not what netted her and Haley the most money.

[Gredival]

Established opinions rarely, if ever, change because of debates. Especially on the internet. I've always considered the point of these discussions to be to break down arguments to a more basic level to examine the basic premises/principles behind them so that one can at least understand the other side.

Sometimes a reasonable conclusion can be exposed to rely on unreasonable assumptions. And other times, as in the case of my signature, a controversial conclusion can be seen to based on a number of acceptable and pretty uncontroversial premises.

The point isn't agreement, it's thought.



:smallsigh: Dude, it's precisely that kind of attitude that makes most people hate lawyers. Celia wanted what was fair, not what netted her and Haley the most money.

Yeah and the thing is... that's how lawyers are. I am rebutting the assertion "She acted like a lawyer" by showing "No, she didn't."

We disagree in our assessment of her principles, but we both seem agree that she was acting upon her personal principles -- not as a "lawyer." I don't understand what the issue is.

[Felixc-91]

ok, after reviewing the thread so far, my first response is *head desk*
ok, first for the technicalities: just because celia says she can't be raised, doesn't mean she can't be raised. true resurrection can, in point of fact, res outsiders. she's a lawyer, not an expert on D&D magic. also, given how she got her powers (genetics, like how a human knows how to hit somthing but not how many foot pounds of pressure they can apply), she probably doesn't know the technicalities.
next point, i do apreciate the lawyers who gave their oppinions as lawyers, i think it really gave the discussion additional depth.
i also want to make sure any one who ready this notices this part


edit: to clarify, the thread title is not the actual question i meant to ask. the actual question is, would you act like Celia did in the fight with the rogues, what do you think is a reasonable course of action in her situation (for someone who normally lives in a modern 21st century society), given the resources she had access to (lawyer training, low-mid level sorcerer powers)?
the discussion we had was not where i meant this thread to go.

[Felixc-91]

somthing to think about, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html), if you think about what Celia is ignorant of, her actions take on a somewhat new light. she has no way of knowing that Bozzok and Crystal could easily have dodged her lightning bolts, she has no combat training, at all. she also has no way of knowing that Bekar is about to save their asses. WTF? she was going to stand there and watch Haley die, no desperate last ditch effort.

[KillianHawkeye]

Morality isn't some vacuum determination, it's always relative.

Morality, in D&D, is in fact NEVER relative.


Some people value their principles over their lives. Basically Celia doesn't want to die but she isn't willing to kill in order to preserve it. I don't think following the instinct of self-preservation to the end can be said to be anymore sane than a person who represses their instincts in order to do something else.

This idea is really not that strange. There are plenty of people in the real world who are willing to die for their beliefs. Celia's beliefs just happen to be not killing other people. So, logically, Celia is willing to lose her own life if it helps saving others' lives.

In my opinion, being willing to die for your beliefs is at least as sane as being willing to kill for them.

[Forum Explorer]

@^ oh right. My bad :smalltongue:


Honestly I would fight and kill if I was in Celia's position. I would take an active role in trying to fend off the theif's guild right from the start. I also wouldn't have gone into the city in the first place without informing Haley. I would argue with her if she gave me that reason she gave Celia but I would give her the benifit of the doubt, or if I had an invisablity spell I might cast it and explore the city via air for a few hours to make my own opinion. Still if Hank offered me the deal that Celia made in the comic I would take it and than get pissed when Haley valued her money more than people's lives.

[KillianHawkeye]

@^ oh right. My bad :smalltongue:

What? I was actually agreeing with you. :smallconfused:

[Felixc-91]

Morality, in D&D, is in fact NEVER relative.



This idea is really not that strange. There are plenty of people in the real world who are willing to die for their beliefs. Celia's beliefs just happen to be not killing other people. So, logically, Celia is willing to lose her own life if it helps saving others' lives.

In my opinion, being willing to die for your beliefs is at least as sane as being willing to kill for them.@1, there are degrees of evil and good in D&D. that leads to relativity. Miko vs Roy. Xykon vs Redcloack. case and point.
@2. ahem... there willing to die for your beliefs, and then there's willing to let others die for your beliefs. Celia falls into both categories. being willing to die for your beliefs is fine by me, but willing to let others die because your beliefs would allow you to act... not so much.

[Forum Staff]

Regardless of the original intent of this thread, it has quickly become a discussion of whether Celia's actions are morally justified, and by extension whether pacifism is. Such a discussion violates our forum rules. Please refrain from making or participating in threads that attempt to analyze a character's actions through the lens of real-world morality, including asking what other posters would do in the same situation given their own personal moral values.

For more information, please consult Rich's word on the subject of what constitutes a "morally justified" thread, located here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9914344#post9914344). Since I don't see anyone questioning Celia's listed alignment here, then this thread is out-of-bounds, per his guidelines.

Thread closed.