The bottom line on Bloodlines

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Is there already a list out there somewhere or could we make one in this thread of the best classes to take a 1, 2, or 3 level dip into based on abilities gained. I have been playing around with a couple of builds in my head and would like to finish them off and I only have a few levels to allocated for each of them but cannot decide what to throw in the mix that would be effective. The main build I would be looking into doing is a 1st level, 3rd level, and 5th level dip for the character in general. Any help here would be hot.

Thanks all in advanced.

[CycloneJoker]

I suggest believing in god for a level. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0)

[Greenish]

There's a whole handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0) for dipping cleric 1.

Other dips vary on what one is trying to achieve. Popular ones for melee are:

fighter 2-4 (feats)
fighter 6 (dungeoncrasher)
feat rogue 2 (feats, skills, evasion)
monk 2 (ditto above)
spirit lion totem barbarian 1 (pounce, rage/whirling frenzy)
factotum 1 or 3 (all skills, int to dex & str checks with 3)
paladin 2 (Divine Grace)
And of course all ToB classes.

[Edit]: Usually, melee characters prefer short dips to other front-heavy base classes, while casters will want to PrC to avoid losing casting.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

There's a whole handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0) for dipping cleric 1.

Other dips vary on what one is trying to achieve. Popular ones for melee are:

fighter 2-4 (feats)
fighter 6 (dungeoncrasher)
feat rogue 2 (feats, skills, evasion)
monk 2 (ditto above)
spirit lion totem barbarian 1 (pounce, rage/whirling frenzy)
factotum 1 or 3 (all skills, int to dex & str checks with 3)
paladin 2 (Divine Grace)
And of course all ToB classes.

[Edit]: Usually, melee characters prefer short dips to other front-heavy base classes, while casters will want to PrC to avoid losing casting.

There is also Swash 1-3 (Weapon Finesse, BAB, Int to damage) which is a favourite for Factotum or Melee Rogue builds.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

A paladin dip would be perfect for what I am trying to do I think. Charisma is my good stat and adding it to saves would be wonderful. Just not the standard Paladin. I know there are variant rules in UA. Is there different paladin ACF or sub levels that take away the LG requirement and would go well with a sort of ad hoc melee warlock?

And any other dip ideas are also appreciated.

[Coidzor]

A paladin dip would be perfect for what I am trying to do I think. Charisma is my good stat and adding it to saves would be wonderful. Just not the standard Paladin. I know there are variant rules in UA. Is there different paladin ACF or sub levels that take away the LG requirement and would go well with a sort of ad hoc melee warlock?

UA and Dragon Magazine Variants are the only thing I know of. Well, other than taking a level in Bone Knight (5 Nations) or sommat else (Grey Guard?) that relaxes the LG requirements of retaining Pally abilities.

You take a look at that Melee Warlock guide that... True Shinken(I think) put out?

Since AFAIK, there's no real way to work melee warlocking with natural weapons, Totemist 2 dip would probably not be worth as much to you, but the non-natural weapons soulmelds and chakra binds might be useful to help make up for what your invocations don't cover. Might even see aboot adapting Anima Mage if you like what you see.

[CycloneJoker]

A paladin dip would be perfect for what I am trying to do I think. Charisma is my good stat and adding it to saves would be wonderful. Just not the standard Paladin. I know there are variant rules in UA. Is there different paladin ACF or sub levels that take away the LG requirement and would go well with a sort of ad hoc melee warlock?

And any other dip ideas are also appreciated.

Levels 4-6 of Mystic Fire Knight are pretty sexy, but that's above a "dip."

EDIT: Forget Paladin, take 2 levels of Monk with Eldritch claws from that Dragon Magazine. Also, Grappling Blast from the same one.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Levels 4-6 of Mystic Fire Knight are pretty sexy, but that's above a "dip."

EDIT: Forget Paladin, take 2 levels of Monk with Eldritch claws from that Dragon Magazine. Also, Grappling Blast from the same one.

Eldritch claws are nice but with the iterative attacks of eldritch glaive I think I will achieve more damage that was since the claws count as natural weapons I will only get 2 per round max. Unless you know something I dont? lol

[CycloneJoker]

Eldritch claws are nice but with the iterative attacks of eldritch glaive I think I will achieve more damage that was since the claws count as natural weapons I will only get 2 per round max. Unless you know something I dont? lol

You get iterative attacks with Claws+you add unarmed strike damage+you can grapple and deal high damage while controlling. Also, I think you might be able to TWF them, not sure. Also, superior unarmed strike+monk's belt.

[term1nally s1ck]

A paladin dip would be perfect for what I am trying to do I think. Charisma is my good stat and adding it to saves would be wonderful. Just not the standard Paladin. I know there are variant rules in UA. Is there different paladin ACF or sub levels that take away the LG requirement and would go well with a sort of ad hoc melee warlock?

And any other dip ideas are also appreciated.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm

CG, CE, and LE are all options.

EDIT:

ACFs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7908.0)

Pick ones you like.

[Greenish]

You get iterative attacks with Claws+you add unarmed strike damageYou need Beast Strike (Dragon #355) for that.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

You need Beast Strike (Dragon #355) for that.


Really...that is the best feat known to man then haha. Hm I may have to reconsider doing that eldritch claws then. That would be ultra flavorful to slap people in the teeth with crackling arcane fists haha

[CycloneJoker]

You need Beast Strike (Dragon #355) for that.

No, I'm pretty sure they count as unarmed attacks, so you do get them.

[Greenish]

No, I'm pretty sure they count as unarmed attacks, so you do get them.No, I'm pretty sure they count as natural attacks, just like the feat description explicitly says:
While your eldritch claws exist you may make up to two claw attacks as natural weapons.

[CycloneJoker]

No, I'm pretty sure they count as natural attacks, just like the feat description explicitly says:

Dang, I guess that's what I get for not reading my book before responding.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Thanks a lot for the ACF list link. That has been uber helpful for this build. And I think those claws would be awesome but that is pretty feat intensive. Can Eldritch claws and Eldritch grapple be taken as Monk bonus feats though? If so then that would not be too bad of an investment to theoretically have for the build. But if not then that would be three feats to have to invest in which is a bit steep.

[Last Laugh]

if no one has mentioned it Binder 1 with Improved Bind Vestige is a wonderful dip, it really gives something for everyone. (+2 fort/will, and Choices galore Including tasty things like +1d6 sudden strike, darkvision, fire resistance, full move in heavy armor, +1/2 con mod --> natural armor, ability to swap places with allies, and much more!)

[Zaq]

Incarnate: 1 level for any soulmeld (barring alignment restrictions) on the list, 2 levels for the Crown bind.

Totemist: 1 level for any meld on the list, 2 levels for the awesome Totem bind.

Warlock: 1 level for an at-will RTA (good for sneak attacks) and an invocation, which can be anything from Spider Climb to +6 to three certain skills to Darkness (which can fuel Blend Into Shadows for pseudo-HiPS at level 1).

DFA: Warlock is usually a better dip, but DFAs can choose Identify at-will and get Dragontouched as a bonus feat.

PsyWar: 1 level gets you most of what you need (a PP reserve, heavy armor proficiency, and a bonus feat) to get Deflective Armor, adding your armor bonus to your touch AC. (It requires proficiency, ability to gain focus, and two feats, so you're just one feat away. Two levels gets you the other feat without losing an additional BAB.)

Ranger: 1-3 levels gets you a lot of common prereqs without losing many skill points.

Marshal: Wait, people take more than 1 level of Marshal anyway?

Barbarian: 1 level for fast movement or for pounce.

Swashbuckler: If you're already dipping one level of this for Weapon Finesse, use the ACF in Complete Mage to get an arcane trick without giving anything up, since the book says that you get the trick at 1st level despite giving up a 2nd level feature.

[MeeposFire]

Eldritch claws are nice but with the iterative attacks of eldritch glaive I think I will achieve more damage that was since the claws count as natural weapons I will only get 2 per round max. Unless you know something I dont? lol

You can get 4 attacks max on your turn with glaive.

You get two attacks base with claws with more attacks possible using beast strike (which allows iterative attacks and two weapon fighting/or secondary natural attack, and also snap kick), haste, and other attack granters.

What is better depends on your use of essences and your need for touch attacks. I prefer claws though that tends to be something you build around while glaive is something simple you can add to a standard warlock.

[sonofzeal]

Barbarian is a perfectly respectable dip (rage, fast movement, d12 hp, 4+int skills), even without ridiculous Complete CrapionChampion variants. But then, my feelings on that book are well known.

[Coidzor]

Oh, yeah, and the whirling frenzy rage variant can be fun as well.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Thank you to Zaq for the epic dip write up. So so so many options to choose from there.

And thanks to meepos for the comparison of claws to glaive. I am still not 100% sure which one I want to go with though to be honest. Once again this is pretty feat intensive. 3rd level warlock is a pretty dead level as far as I am concerned. I do like the Magic of Incarnum dips as that is one of my favorite systems. I need to look into binder more as well. I am not fully educated on how all of that works but I hear it is amazing. Of those classes though the third level ability is still pretty lame. Maybe I will do 2 of something then one of something else but I am still not sure what.

Hexblade would be very fitting...but god the class sucks. Has there been any sort of reworks or anything for that class? Mettle and cha to saves vs spells is always good. But the hex kinda blows as well as...basically everything else.

Paladin is still looking to be a maybe for the build. But less so than before.

Could someone explain how the bloodline from UA works as far as its bonuses to things? I tried reading through the charts and stuff and I just don't see how they apply the bonuses.

[Waker]

The hexblade never got an official update, but one of the creators of the class did post this
* Good Fortitude save
* Curse ability usable 1 + the hexblade's Cha modifier per day
* Curse ability usable as a swift action
* Curse ability does not count as used if the target makes his saving throw
* Ability to cast in light or medium armor and while carrying a light shield or buckler
* At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19547530/Contacting_Wizards_of_the_Coast_about_Hex_Blades?p ost_id=332210466#332210466

[MeeposFire]

The hexblade never got an official update, but one of the creators of the class did post this
* Good Fortitude save
* Curse ability usable 1 + the hexblade's Cha modifier per day
* Curse ability usable as a swift action
* Curse ability does not count as used if the target makes his saving throw
* Ability to cast in light or medium armor and while carrying a light shield or buckler
* At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19547530/Contacting_Wizards_of_the_Coast_about_Hex_Blades?p ost_id=332210466#332210466

I never understand why you would want to nerf this class by making curse a swift action and then making spell casting a swift action. Sometimes you have to wonder what they were thinking.

[Flickerdart]

Could someone explain how the bloodline from UA works as far as its bonuses to things? I tried reading through the charts and stuff and I just don't see how they apply the bonuses.
Basically, your bloodline level is like LA - you don't get HP, BAB or anything like that. Instead you get the abilities listed.

[Sitzkrieg]

This might not be what you're looking for, but Cleric 1 and Paladin 4 get sweet, sweet turn undead attempts, which can be turned into various stuff like ridiculous amounts of healing, the ability to fly, etc. with divine/devotion feats. Definitely take a look at the Cleric 1 guide.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Basically, your bloodline level is like LA - you don't get HP, BAB or anything like that. Instead you get the abilities listed.


But you have to take the bloodlines as character levels...so are they applicable with the level adjustment buy off system or will you just be stuck at ECL 17 at the end of your journey.

And it also says you must take your bloodline level "before" the level indicated on the table. So could you technically take those levels at the beginning and be done with them as I wish to do. Like I said before I am looking for a 1st level 3rd level and 5th level dip for this 20th level character. If that could fit in these bonuses look quite nice.

[MeeposFire]

you cannot buy them off as they are not LA. In fact mechanically they are nothing like LA. They are only similar in that that they both have an end result of making you haves less class levels than your ECL.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

you cannot buy them off as they are not LA. In fact mechanically they are nothing like LA. They are only similar in that that they both have an end result of making you haves less class levels than your ECL.


So they do in fact count as "character levels" they just don't add the typical bonuses normal class levels would give. So I would still be a 20th level character with three levels of bloodline? Including full feat gains etc? Sorry if these are noob questions I have never really messed with a lot of the stuff from UA. And this bloodline thing intrigues me haha

[MeeposFire]

So they do in fact count as "character levels" they just don't add the typical bonuses normal class levels would give. So I would still be a 20th level character with three levels of bloodline? Including full feat gains etc? Sorry if these are noob questions I have never really messed with a lot of the stuff from UA. And this bloodline thing intrigues me haha

Here it is in a nutshell for bloodlines

1) At certain levels you must take a level in your bloodline. If you do not take it by that time you do not gain any new bloodline abilities and you take an XP penalty. When you take that bloodline level you lose these penalties. So you can take these bloodline levels whenever you want but it is in your best interest to take them at character (not class) levels 3/6/12.

2) Taking a bloodline level counts as having a level so a fighter 2/major titan bloodline 1 is a level 3 character.

3) A bloodline level gives you no standard class benefits such as BAB bonus or saves but it does count as gaining a level so your maximum skill rank level improves when you take a bloodline level. Example using the previous fighter, the character would have max ranks of 6 in any class skill just like any character at 3rd level.

4) Bloodline levels stack with level based benefits such as caster level or in your case abilities hellfire. All classes you have benefit. If you had a warlock10/hellfire warlock3/binder1/major titan bloodline 3 you would be a 16th level character with a warlock caster level of 13, hellfire blast would be equal to a 6th level hellfire (so +12d6), and you would bind as a level 4 binder.

5) Despite this stacking you do not get new class abilities from bloodlines. Using the warlock example I only have the class abilities of a level 10 binder so I would not have the ability to craft items yet since that comes at level 12 and bloodlines do not stack for this purpose.

So yes they are levels. They are just similar to LA in that they are not class levels and they do not give you hit dice and similar stuff.

Do you have any more specific questions or did this answer everything?

[term1nally s1ck]

Actually, they have no effect on ECL. Barring cheese using the way people level up, that just means you will get a little extra XP.

[MeeposFire]

Actually a fighter17/major titan bloodline 3 character is a level 20 character so you do not gain extra XP assuming everybody else is level 20. I was wrong in calling it ECL as it really is a class level not an effective class level. It just is a class level with no skill points, no BAB, no saves, and no HD.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Thanks Meepos that is an excellent write up. And you have been extremely helpful. I think with that combined with the hellfire warlock it would be pretty hoss. And the fact that I can max out my ranks etc on it is awesome too as that is exactly what I needed to happen to make taking the bloodline viable for the build.

Thanks to everyone else too who contributed.

[MeeposFire]

Thanks Meepos that is an excellent write up. And you have been extremely helpful. I think with that combined with the hellfire warlock it would be pretty hoss. And the fact that I can max out my ranks etc on it is awesome too as that is exactly what I needed to happen to make taking the bloodline viable for the build.

Thanks to everyone else too who contributed.

No problem Kobolds live to serve.:smallcool:

[term1nally s1ck]

Actually a fighter17/major titan bloodline 3 character is a level 20 character so you do not gain extra XP assuming everybody else is level 20. I was wrong in calling it ECL as it really is a class level not an effective class level. It just is a class level with no skill points, no BAB, no saves, and no HD.

That's just not true. ECL IS your character level, and bloodline levels do not have any effect on your ECL, which is what determines your experience gain.

It's written pretty clearly into them, where it says that 'bloodline levels do not have any effect on your ECL'

[MeeposFire]

That's just not true. ECL IS your character level, and bloodline levels do not have any effect on your ECL, which is what determines your experience gain.

It's written pretty clearly into them, where it says that 'bloodline levels do not have any effect on your ECL'

Well right now I am looking at the SRD and it does not say this at all. I will look in the book and see if it is written differently.

EDIT: Just looked at the book and I do not see it there either. The only time I see ECL used in this section is in reference to LA which is appropriate. it would help if you gave a link or a page number.

[term1nally s1ck]

Page 19, right hand column, last sentence of the first paragraph under 'Bloodline Levels'

"Class levels of bloodline do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits."

[MeeposFire]

Page 19, right hand column, last sentence of the first paragraph under 'Bloodline Levels'

"Class levels of bloodline do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits."

First off that is not a quote of "bloodline levels do not have any effect on your ECL" as you said so I think you can forgive me for not thinking that was the quote you were referencing.

2) After that sentence it lists the way bloodlines are not like and are like other class levels. If you notice it never says anywhere that they do not count as a level and in fact it says many times that you are taking a level in blood line and it is referred to as a class

"If the character does not take a class level of bloodline before reaching the character level indicated on the table"

"instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline""

And so on.

The ways that class levels of bloodline do not increase levels like normal class levels include

"A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters. "

So no BAB, saves, skill points, or HD. This is not normal. Notice ECL is not in this list. In addition after that it also improves other classes abilities which is also not typical.

I think you are taking that sentence and attributing more to it than is given in the description.

EDIT: Thank you for telling me the quote and the location it was helpful to me since it let me know where you got that idea.

[term1nally s1ck]

In one sentence it says 'class levels of bloodline do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class does'

It never mentions character level one way or another after that.

That's not vague or misleading in the slightest, it's written out quite plainly. Character level is how you determine the XP you earn from combats.
Hence, if you take a class level in bloodline, which does not increase your character level, you earn xp at the rate of a character one 'level' below you.

[MeeposFire]

In one sentence it says 'class levels of bloodline do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class does'

It never mentions character level one way or another after that.

That's not vague or misleading in the slightest, it's written out quite plainly. Character level is how you determine the XP you earn from combats.
Hence, if you take a class level in bloodline, which does not increase your character level, you earn xp at the rate of a character one 'level' below you.

If it does not use ECL after your quote and it is not actually used in your quote then ECL is not mentioned and in a case where it says you are gaining levels in a bloodline class you would have to prove that ECL is affected your quote does not say that. It only says it is not like a normal level and below that it has a list of things of which none is like normal level and yet the one thing that is not said is "bloodlines do not affect ECL".

In order for it to not be vague or misleading in the slightest it would need to outright say "Bloodlines do not count towards your ECL". What you are saying is more vague since it does not actually state that and you are saying that it does because you think that sentence implies that bloodlines do not count towards your ECL.

Further you do notice that all major bloodlines go to level 20 and have a bonus at every level. If bloodlines do not count towards ECL then those abilities would not be gained until epic levels.

[term1nally s1ck]

Uhhh, no, they'd be gained at normal levels. You'd still be at character level 20 when you gained the last one.

As for ECL, let's look at how it is defined.

"A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment."

In the PHB, the XP tables talk about how you need to gain so much XP to reach the next 'character level', however, so ECL isn't that relevant anyway, and it was my mistake to mention it. (This does lead into an interesting question, though...does having racial HD and LA not count towards how much XP you need to level?)

[MeeposFire]

How are you doing that? If I have a major bloodline and I had to pick up my 3 bloodline levels this is what the progression will look like. Number will be character level.

1) fighter(1)
2) fighter(2)
3) bloodline(1)
4) fighter(3)
5) fighter(4)
6) bloodline(2)
7) fighter(5)
8) fighter(6)
9) fighter(7)
10) fighter(8)
11) fighter(9)
12) bloodline(3)
13) fighter(10)
14) fighter(11)
15) fighter(12)
16) fighter(13)
17) fighter(14)
18) fighter(15)
19) fighter(16)
20) fighter(17)

So no you would have to wait until epic to get all your abilities from a bloodline unless the bloodlines count as class levels since we do know that bloodlines cost us normal class levels.

[term1nally s1ck]

1) fighter(1)
2) fighter(2)
2) bloodline(1)
3) fighter(3)
4) fighter(4)
5) fighter(5)
5) bloodline(2)
6) fighter(6)
7) fighter(7)
8) fighter(8)
9) fighter(9)
10) fighter(10)
10) bloodline(3)
11) fighter(11)
12) fighter(12)
13) fighter(13)
14) fighter(14)
15) fighter(15)
16) fighter(16)
17) fighter(17)
18) fighter(18)
19) fighter(19)
20) fighter(20)

[MeeposFire]

So now bloodlines cost you no levels?

[Coidzor]

^: Yes. They just delay your advancement to the next level. Possibly by as little as the next time one gains XP, depending upon DM adjudication if I'm remembering the last time they were brought up correctly. But that's taking the cheese up to about 11 from the more usual 7ish.
Further you do notice that all major bloodlines go to level 20 and have a bonus at every level. If bloodlines do not count towards ECL then those abilities would not be gained until epic levels.

Uh, no. If bloodlines don't count towards one's character level, then one can take 20 class levels and get full bloodline benefits without being an epic character.

You're hung up on them being called levels when they don't actually cause one's character level to go up.

So, to fix your example.
01. Fighter 1
02. Fighter 2
(Bloodline 1)
03. Fighter 3
04. Fighter 4
05. Fighter 5
(Bloodline 2)
06. Fighter 6
07. Fighter 7
08. Fighter 8
09. Fighter 9
10. Fighter 10
11. Fighter 11
(Bloodline 3)
12. Fighter 12
13. Fighter 13
14. Fighter 14
15. Fighter 15
16. Fighter 16
17. Fighter 17
18. Fighter 18
19. Fighter 19
20. Fighter 20

Which is why they're not very often used and considered cheesy, because it's essentially something for nothing, trading increased abilities for a slightly longer time to get to the next level, unless one delays taking bloodline levels in exchange for the XP penalty in order to get more benefit from them.

Which, while annoying, isn't that bad (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/LAvsXPpenalty.html). Unless one's playing with other PCs who aren't taking blood line levels in which case their advancement is enough that the XP penalty is somewhat offset by the increase in CR for a level-appropriate encounter and the bloodline levels boosts of one's abilities will end up being a clear boost over the non-bloodline characters. Unless they're a fullcaster in which case, eh, 9th level spells...

[MeeposFire]

^: Yes. They just delay your advancement to the next level. Possibly by as little as the next time one gains XP, depending upon DM adjudication if I'm remembering the last time they were brought up correctly.

Uh, no. If bloodlines don't count towards one's character level, then one can take 20 class levels and get full bloodline benefits without being an epic character.

You're hung up on them being called levels when they don't actually cause one's character level to go up.

So, to fix your example.
01. Fighter 1
02. Fighter 2
(Bloodline 1)
03. Fighter 3
04. Fighter 4
05. Fighter 5
(Bloodline 2)
06. Fighter 6
07. Fighter 7
08. Fighter 8
09. Fighter 9
10. Fighter 10
11. Fighter 11
(Bloodline 3)
12. Fighter 12
13. Fighter 13
14. Fighter 14
15. Fighter 15
16. Fighter 16
17. Fighter 17
18. Fighter 18
19. Fighter 19
20. Fighter 20

Which is why they're not very often used and considered cheesy, because it's essentially something for nothing, trading increased abilities for a slightly longer time to get to the next level, unless one delays taking bloodline levels in exchange for the XP penalty in order to get more benefit from them.

Which, while annoying, isn't that bad (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/LAvsXPpenalty.html). Unless one's playing with other PCs who aren't taking blood line levels in which case their advancement is enough that the XP penalty is somewhat offset by the increase in CR for a level-appropriate encounter and the bloodline levels boosts of one's abilities will end up being a clear boost over the non-bloodline characters. Unless they're a fullcaster in which case, eh, 9th level spells...


and where does it actually say this? The above quote does not actually say that at all. It only says it is not like a normal level-then it describes how it is different from a normal level-and then nothing is mentioned about it not counting as a level and considering how it says that you must take levels in bloodlines you would need to provide direct evidence saying that these levels of bloodline do not count as levels for experience.

Can you do that or are you just going to say this with no evidence?

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

I think the clearest evidence to support the idea that bloodlines are indeed class levels is that it says specifically that they count towards your maximum number of ranks in a given skill. So a (whatever 1 bloodline 1 whatever 1)could still put 6 ranks in one skill just as a normal third level character would. Why would that be written in the bloodlines section of UA if it wasn't actually levels and you were really just a whatever 3 anyways?

[Coidzor]

They're not something that should've been suggested for dipping in the first place because they're either terrible or cheesy.

You want to discuss 'em further, we should probably create a new thread for that rather than derail this further.

[term1nally s1ck]

It doesn't make the vague statement that bloodline levels aren't like normal class levels, it makes the specific statement that bloodline levels do not raise character level like normal class levels.

Seriously, how are you reading 'class levels of bloodline do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class does' as anything else? In what different way do they raise character level? Do they increase it by fractions? Is it now a quadratic progression?

Here's another sentence for you.

"The G11 assault rifle does not use explosives to fire bullets the way normal guns do, but it provides certain benefits."

"Anaerobic exercise does not increase endurance the way normal exercise does, but it provides certain benefits."

These are the same sentence, with a different subject, and they both unequivocally mean that they do NOT provide the effect mentioned.

If a bloodline level does not increase character level, then you have to follow the rules for a character on the character level you are at, which includes the rules on gaining experience and levels.

G3ner3l Ghost, that would be because the normal skill limit is based on Hit Dice, not class levels. Bloodlines are an exceptions to that rule.

Coidzor, the question you're recalling is that by a blind purely RAW reading, the XP tables specify the total XP you must reach to get to the next level. If you reach the XP total needed to reach character level 3, you take a bloodline level, you are still character level 2 and can instantly level up to 3 with a real class level. However, that's not possible until you gain more XP, because it's very specific that you can only gain 1 level for a single encounter.

This is a purely RAW reading, and abuses that the PHB is the primary source. Using many other books, you can find the text for the amount of XP needed to level up from one level to the next is there, and it makes bloodlines make sense that way.

MeeposFire, if you still do not agree with the way we interpret what seems to me to be plain english in the opening text of the Bloodlines section of UA, merely because you dislike the conclusions drawn, I suggest we do not continue this conversation, you aren't going to convince me that my understanding of the english language is wrong.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

They're not something that should've been suggested for dipping in the first place because they're either terrible or cheesy.

You want to discuss 'em further, we should probably create a new thread for that rather than derail this further.


I would agree with you normally however what I was using this thread for is done. I will just change the title and we can continue. I still disagree that bloodlines are not class levels. They do not count for certain things like normal class levels would...but it then goes on to say that means no HP, Saves, BAB etc. But you do gain these benifits including the fact that you use bloodline levels as character levels in terms of determining that is the max number of ranks you can have. Once again...this wouldn't be the case if you were indeed not gaining a level. As you could in theory have HIGHER than normal skill ranks if used as a level adjustment as you are stating because it specifically says that bloodline levels add to other levels.

So a 3rd level fighter with one bloodline "level" which we are assuming for this example does not actually count as a level. Could put 7 ranks in something? how does that make any sense to anyone.

[term1nally s1ck]

It has some of the benefits of a class level, yes. The problem is that it clearly states that bloodline levels do not increase your character level, and your character level is what determines XP and levelling.

[Coidzor]

But you do gain these benifits including the fact that you use bloodline levels as character levels in terms of determining that is the max number of ranks you can have. Once again...this wouldn't be the case if you were indeed not gaining a level. As you could in theory have HIGHER than normal skill ranks if used as a level adjustment as you are stating because it specifically says that bloodline levels add to other levels.

So a 3rd level fighter with one bloodline "level" which we are assuming for this example does not actually count as a level. Could put 7 ranks in something? how does that make any sense to anyone.

It's specifically called out as something that the bloodline level does, without requiring it to advance one's character level in actualitybecause it's called out as an exception to the fact that it doesn't advance character level. And, further, the bloodline level is called out as not-advancing one's character level, however it does give qualities X, Y, and Z; but not qualities A, B, and C.


It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks.

That's the only place it's called out as counting as a normal level and only for that purpose.

"Counts as a level for skill rank caps" =/= "counts as a character level in general," especially given that it's said not to advance character level in the way that class levels do. Not that a bloodline level doesn't give the HD-derived benefits of a class level (except for specific exceptions called out), but that it doesn't advance character level.

And unless it's LA or RHD, the only way to advance ECL is via character level without specifically calling it out that they're creating some new way to advance ECL, which they didn't do, and even stated that character level is not increased.


It only says it is not like a normal level-then it describes how it is different from a normal level-and then nothing is mentioned about it not counting as a level and considering how it says that you must take levels in bloodlines you would need to provide direct evidence saying that these levels of bloodline do not count as levels for experience.

Seeing as how it says it doesn't advance character level before it details the ways in which it is or is not similar to taking a class level in something, I should say that covers it.


Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does

The way that a class level increases a character's character level is by advancing it 1. So, bloodlines can only increase it by some value of X, where X =/= 1, and that's if they can increase it at all and one doesn't run with class levels increasing character level by a positive integer as leaving only negative integers available.

So, you can't interpret it as advancing a character's character level by 1 either way. Advancing character level multiple levels for a single level, on the other hand, is not supported in the text or the rest of the body of the rules, as far as I have read, so that's out if one even wanted to try to interpret it that way anyway.

So that leaves X as a negative integer, X as a non-integer, and X as 0. X as a negative integer is out for similar reasons as X as an integer greater than 1 (not supported by rules text with the only similar case being incarnate construct), as well as the fact that it would make bloodlines totally broken as they provide a double benefit from the bloodline and from faster leveling.

X as a non-integer would result in it being rounded due to the way D&D deals with non-integers, and so would result in 1, an integer greater than 1, or a negative integer, all of which are disqualified as choices... and IIRC, an integer can't be rounded to 0 due to the way D&D deals with math.

So, X = 0 is the only possibility that makes sense.



On another note, Bloodlines do not advance character level and yet their benefits are based on character level and stop at character level 20 rather than going on into Epic character levels of 21+.

Or you could instead interpret their benefits as only extending 3 levels into Epic, but that doesn't make much sense for them to go three levels into Epic and not include anything else on the subject other than the table.

@term1nally s1ck: thank you for that clarification.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

I would like to get some extra opinions in here regarding this topic. Obviously us four are dead set in our ideas of what the wording is for this particular item. I for one was just turned on to it last night but in reading it through it says it is class levels some places and says it is not class levels in other places based on the benifits recieved. To be honest I could see the argument going either way just depending what point of view you take it from. On the one hand you can say it is class levels just without some of the normal benifits of class levels or you can say it isn't class levels but with some of the benifits of normal class levels. That seems to be our arguments and I think it just comes down to interpretation as it honestly isn't clear one way or the other.

[MeeposFire]

It doesn't make the vague statement that bloodline levels aren't like normal class levels, it makes the specific statement that bloodline levels do not raise character level like normal class levels.

Seriously, how are you reading 'class levels of bloodline do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class does' as anything else? In what different way do they raise character level? Do they increase it by fractions? Is it now a quadratic progression?


If a bloodline level does not increase character level, then you have to follow the rules for a character on the character level you are at, which includes the rules on gaining experience and levels.

G3ner3l Ghost, that would be because the normal skill limit is based on Hit Dice, not class levels. Bloodlines are an exceptions to that rule.



I can read that sentence precisly that way because I know the English language and I know that with rules you cannot just make assumptions.

"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

Now taking this sentence without making an assumption I see that the sentence says I cannot increase my level as a normal class level does which tells me it is different in some form. How exactly it is different is unknown just from this sentence. Right now it could be anything from what you said to you get absolutely nothing. We need clarification fortunately the next section tells me how.

In the next paragraph it tells us if we do not pick up our bloodline level by 3rd level then we no longer get bloodline abilities and we take an XP penalty for not taking a level. Neither is normal and so now we know that this is one way that bloodline levels are different from normal levels.

We then see that bloodline levels do not grant BAB, skill points, or HD. This is also not normal for class levels. Once again they are providing us with information to tell us how they are different.

Next it says that this levels counts towards other classes for level benefits. Once again this is not normal for levels.

That is at least 3 differences between normal levels and bloodline levels. I can see they went through a lot of time to specify the differences and I noticed that bloodlines not getting counted as levels was not one of the benefits listed. Just the lack of hit dice is a big way to show how these levels do not improve your character level in the normal way (normally your character level improves by HD) and would be good enough fulfill that first sentence.

Further by your reading why would bloodlines slow me at all. If they are not levels then there is no reason to wait for a level up to take them. By the RAW (assuming if they are not levels since this will not work without that ruling) they must take them before certain levels but the timing is otherwise not mentioned. You could therefor take those levels all at once and it would not hinder you at all. Further it in inconsistent to say that these are not levels and then say that the reason that you cannot take a bloodline level at the same time as a class level is because you cannot gain two levels at once. In order for that to be a problem then bloodlines have to be a level in the first place.

The only way this works is if you read the RAW and realize that they are class levels (and that is written in the section) but they do not increase a characters level as a normal character class would (since normal class would increase skill points, HD, do not increase all other classes level based abilities, or the other abilities).

I can see why you might think that one sentence says what you think it says in a vacuum but the next few paragraphs clarify its meaning. They went through a lot of trouble telling us how it is not like a normal level. The fact that they fail to mention anywhere that a "class level in bloodline" does not count as a level tells me volumes.

And your sentence analogy is inaccurate. We are not arguing whether bloodline levels are normal class levels (they are not). We are arguing whether bloodline levels count as levels for the purpose of determining your level on the XP chart.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I dislike renamed threads aside from cosmetic reasons

Terminally understands correctly, meepo (nice reference btw). If you want some in-depth explanations see my handbook on BG.

[maysarahs]

Not sure if this is the right thread to discuss this on (it referred to dipping before), but we are playtesting the magus in a game, and I was wondering if a one level dip in cloistered cleric for knowledge devotion (and spells and other goodies) would be a good idea? My thinking was to offset the MAD strength requirement (with high int, and knowledge as all class skills, a +3 seems good enough to offset the average BAB and a few less points in strength?) (its a level 10 game)

[MeeposFire]

Looking in other threads on other websites I have found that...



Nobody agrees. Just long arguments going on just as we have. Similar to some other arguments in 3.5. It appears it will be better to say we have come to an impasse and ask your DM because the FAQ does not even bother to answer that question (instead just going on about how bloodlines improve multiple level based abilities as if that was the part that was not clear).

I have yet to see anything better than one interpretation over another interpretation. It is fairly annoying.:smallconfused:

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Looking in other threads on other websites I have found that...



Nobody agrees. Just long arguments going on just as we have. Similar to some other arguments in 3.5. It appears it will be better to say we have come to an impasse and ask your DM because the FAQ does not even bother to answer that question (instead just going on about how bloodlines improve multiple level based abilities as if that was the part that was not clear).

I have yet to see anything better than one interpretation over another interpretation. It is fairly annoying.:smallconfused:

This. There will be no settling it. I agree with you though meepo. As does the DM who would be in charge if this character ever happens. No more need for banter. Now lets all get ice cream and hug it out. haha

[term1nally s1ck]

I can read that sentence precisly that way because I know the English language and I know that with rules you cannot just make assumptions.

"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

Now taking this sentence without making an assumption I see that the sentence says I cannot increase my level as a normal class level does which tells me it is different in some form. How exactly it is different is unknown just from this sentence. Right now it could be anything from what you said to you get absolutely nothing. We need clarification fortunately the next section tells me how.

In the next paragraph it tells us if we do not pick up our bloodline level by 3rd level then we no longer get bloodline abilities and we take an XP penalty for not taking a level. Neither is normal and so now we know that this is one way that bloodline levels are different from normal levels.

We then see that bloodline levels do not grant BAB, skill points, or HD. This is also not normal for class levels. Once again they are providing us with information to tell us how they are different.

Next it says that this levels counts towards other classes for level benefits. Once again this is not normal for levels.

That is at least 3 differences between normal levels and bloodline levels. I can see they went through a lot of time to specify the differences and I noticed that bloodlines not getting counted as levels was not one of the benefits listed. Just the lack of hit dice is a big way to show how these levels do not improve your character level in the normal way (normally your character level improves by HD) and would be good enough fulfill that first sentence.

Further by your reading why would bloodlines slow me at all. If they are not levels then there is no reason to wait for a level up to take them. By the RAW (assuming if they are not levels since this will not work without that ruling) they must take them before certain levels but the timing is otherwise not mentioned. You could therefor take those levels all at once and it would not hinder you at all. Further it in inconsistent to say that these are not levels and then say that the reason that you cannot take a bloodline level at the same time as a class level is because you cannot gain two levels at once. In order for that to be a problem then bloodlines have to be a level in the first place.

The only way this works is if you read the RAW and realize that they are class levels (and that is written in the section) but they do not increase a characters level as a normal character class would (since normal class would increase skill points, HD, do not increase all other classes level based abilities, or the other abilities).

I can see why you might think that one sentence says what you think it says in a vacuum but the next few paragraphs clarify its meaning. They went through a lot of trouble telling us how it is not like a normal level. The fact that they fail to mention anywhere that a "class level in bloodline" does not count as a level tells me volumes.

And your sentence analogy is inaccurate. We are not arguing whether bloodline levels are normal class levels (they are not). We are arguing whether bloodline levels count as levels for the purpose of determining your level on the XP chart.

Ah, I see the problem now. You're looking at character level as the sum total of every stat you possess. HD, BAB, skill points, etc.

That's not true. Character Level is a number, a statistic of your character, with clearly defined characteristics. It determines a variety of things, with several class abilities and racial powers based on your Character Level, which is always treated as a number.

It's even defined in the back of the PHB, if you want to go take a look. It's a number. The total number of class levels you have taken.

A level in bloodline is a level, but if taking a level in X does not increase a number the way normal levels do, the number does not increase.

[MeeposFire]

Ah, I see the problem now. You're looking at character level as the sum total of every stat you possess. HD, BAB, skill points, etc.

That's not true. Character Level is a number, a statistic of your character, with clearly defined characteristics. It determines a variety of things, with several class abilities and racial powers based on your Character Level, which is always treated as a number.

It's even defined in the back of the PHB, if you want to go take a look. It's a number. The total number of class levels you have taken.

A level in bloodline is a level, but if taking a level in X does not increase a number the way normal levels do, the number does not increase.

Actually character level is a combination of class levels and racial hit dice it is in the FAQ. That would be the reason why I have an argument that bloodlines do not work like normal levels precisely because they lack a hit die. Unfortunately without some sort of proof from an official source the whole argument becomes moot since we have no way to decide the argument without interpretation (and interpretation is subjective).

[dextercorvia]

FWIW, I read it the same as term1nally s1ck and Coidzor.

If you read it this way, it works effectively like LA that you buy off as you accumulate.