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Triskavanski
2011-01-30, 01:51 PM
I've started playing a totemist yesterday, And well I had a ball.

Was using the chimera head meldshape as my totem, granting me 2 bites and a gore. The Dread Carapiece increased my damage of natural attacks at the cost of my accuracy. And lastly the totem gives me hp and ac.

Using feats from the feat book, I gained 2 secondary claw attacks.
Then took Multiattack and Dragontouched (for dragonmelds)

Flaws include Beastial: -2 to all attacks that are not a natural weapon or unarmed attack. And No time for Book learning: Can't learn to read, -2 to all knowledge skills.
(Low effect on the character, but overall fits the whole theme.)

And well, as a second level character, I was pretty much one-shoting most monsters we faced. Which is good, because I made the character to replace two people who left as our damage dealers (and tank)


But this is getting me to wonder, why does everyone always kinda say the chimera head sucks and rate it so lowly?

Greenish
2011-01-30, 02:13 PM
But this is getting me to wonder, why does everyone always kinda say the chimera head sucks and rate it so lowly?Probably because the triple attack can't be used with pounce or other natural weapons, and it won't improve with invested essentia.

Hammerhead
2011-01-30, 02:16 PM
How are you getting claw and chimera attacks from soulmelds at level 2?

Chimera gets flak for a couple reasons: it has weak base effects - it gives a circumstancial +2 to AC and a low skill mod from augments - and it doesn't combo well with other attacks (which is one of the big draws to natural weapons in the first place): when used with claws or slams or whatever else, it gives a single 1d6/8+.5*Str mod bite or gore. Most other soulmeld weapons give something like 1d8+.5*Str+essentia*d8 damage or gain magical enhancements (as well as better non-totem bonuses). Chimera's non-Totem binds are kind of neat though.

Greenish
2011-01-30, 02:20 PM
How are you getting claw and chimera attacks from soulmelds at level 2?Claws of the Wyrm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4) grants claws from just shaping it, unlike most 'melds.

Still, the threefold mask compares unfavourably to Landshark Boots, Girallon Arms or even Sphinx Claws with some essentia.

Triskavanski
2011-01-30, 02:50 PM
The claw attack is gained from a feat in a Book of Feats we have, which is a compendium of various 3.x feats. The feat's name is tooth and and gives a bite and 2 claw attacks.

This thing is intended to emulate a real chimera, who's full round action is 2 bites, 2 claws and a gore. All three heads are at primary level while the claws are at secondary level.

Greenish
2011-01-30, 02:53 PM
This thing is intended to emulate a real chimera, who's full round action is 2 bites, 2 claws and a gore. All three heads are at primary level while the claws are at secondary level.That's not how the 'meld works by the book, though.

Triskavanski
2011-01-30, 03:01 PM
Not from what I've seen so far in the books I've read.

So could you direct me to where it says "If X is a full round action, you cannot possibly use secondary attacks".

HunterOfJello
2011-01-30, 03:08 PM
Chimera is rated lower because you get 3 natural attacks, but not combat bonus from invested Essentia.


If you use Girralon Arms with Multiattack, you get 4 natural attacks and if you invest 2 essentia into it, you get +6 to grapple and +2 enhancement bonus to attack and damage with each claw.

Also, if you mesh these with the Feral template, then you get some very impressive damage at the lower levels.

Greenish
2011-01-30, 03:17 PM
Not from what I've seen so far in the books I've read.

So could you direct me to where it says "If X is a full round action, you cannot possibly use secondary attacks".My bad. If it really said that it's a full round action to attack with all three heads, you wouldn't get secondary attacks, but as is it's full attack, so you do get them.

Triskavanski
2011-01-30, 03:33 PM
My bad. If it really said that it's a full round action to attack with all three heads, you wouldn't get secondary attacks, but as is it's full attack, so you do get them.

Well to be truthful, I didn't actually know there was such a difference in terminology. My DM and I had thought that if a chimera could do it, then the totemist could do it and had been trying to figure out where it says stuff, and where we went wrong.

Cause looking at it, the Dread carapace and Chimera mask seem like they were made for each other. With a Druid, truenamer and bard in our party, I can recover much of my lower attack bonus.

Hammerhead
2011-01-30, 03:48 PM
You could probably nitpick the use of the preposition as in the 'as a full attack action' phrase, if you wanted to make a case against the soulmeld working in a full attack with other natural weapons (as opposed to in, during or the 'as a part of' phrase used later on in its description).

I'm not sure why you'd want to though, as the soulmeld's kind of nifty, and not particularly overwhelming when compared to other options.

Coidzor
2011-01-30, 03:49 PM
Are there any claw natural attacks that Totemist grants that don't overlap with or replace the ones that a character would have from its physical form?

Greenish
2011-01-30, 03:53 PM
Are there any claw natural attacks that Totemist grants that don't overlap with or replace the ones that a character would have from its physical form?Depends on which natural attacks totemist has from it's race. Lamia Belt, for example, stacks with normal claw attacks from upper limbs. Girallon Arms grants three secondary claw attacks that stack with whatever you happen to be doing with your actual hands (say, using manufactured weapons etc.).

[Edit]: Wormtail Belt's stinger should stack with everything.

Triskavanski
2011-01-30, 04:48 PM
something else I ran into, currently I'm using a dueling cloak, which acts like a shield but counts as light armor in your "shield" slot. (To be used by bards)

And we are currently running that cause it there, I only use one claw attack. When I take it off (Usually in a dramatic fashion) i can use both.

Does haveing a shield really negate your ability with all claw attacks as I've seen some people suggest?

(And yes, we use every book we can get our hands on. So long as players take the time to try and read and understand it, as I'm doing now.)

MeeposFire
2011-01-30, 04:53 PM
Well normally you choose to have extra AC or extra attacks.

you could go buckler and pick up the improved buckler defense feat though the buckler will apply a _1 to hit penalty with that "hand".

Triskavanski
2011-01-30, 05:11 PM
I mean for the hand that isn't being used for the shield. I just will find it a little odd if I cannot use the empty hand to fight with simple because my other hand is behind a sheet.

MeeposFire
2011-01-30, 05:16 PM
I do not recall anything that says if one hand is occupied that you cannot use your other hand's claw attack except in specific cases involving specific claw attacks that require both claws to work (nothing comes to mind at the moment).

Rule of thumb is you can make claw attacks with any limb not being used for something else (such as an attack or a shield).

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-30, 05:16 PM
The Chimera meld is great for low levels, but you're going to get diminishing returns the longer you use it. It scales awfully.

MeeposFire
2011-01-30, 05:19 PM
The one thing I have found that the chimera bites were particularity great for was when I created a con damaging bite master from a shifter with longtooth elite. It allowed me to damage con with every bite and I used imp rapid strike and a necklace of natural attacks to give my bites con damaging enchantments on top of everything else. t was nasty to anything vulnerable to con damage.

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-30, 05:28 PM
(and most things are vulnerable to con damage)

MeeposFire
2011-01-30, 05:42 PM
Indeed most things are but my damage was mostly average outside of that con damage so undead were not my favorite enemies.

My build had about 8 bites a round or so which dealt 3 con damage each so I could deal 24 con damage a round if I hit (though we do know that is always not a given).

Triskavanski
2011-01-30, 06:14 PM
The Chimera meld is great for low levels, but you're going to get diminishing returns the longer you use it. It scales awfully.

It scales awfully by its own accord, but what about when applied to the dread carapiece, a bard, druid and truenamer?

3/4 of our party is buff/controll and I'm damge and tank. (in mmo terms.)

Triskavanski
2011-01-31, 01:21 AM
Well in anycase, thanks. I now know at least a little bit of why people think its a horrible meld to shape.

Now I just gotta convince my DM to allow me to drop perfession and instead pick up preform A cappella. Just simple cause it would be funny to have a man with chimera heads singing things like the theme song to underdog.

MeeposFire
2011-01-31, 01:34 AM
Well in anycase, thanks. I now know at least a little bit of why people think its a horrible meld to shape.

Now I just gotta convince my DM to allow me to drop perfession and instead pick up preform A cappella. Just simple cause it would be funny to have a man with chimera heads singing things like the theme song to underdog.

Well unless you are trying to make money with your singing you do not need perform to sing a theme song just do it!:smallbiggrin:

Triskavanski
2011-01-31, 01:59 AM
Typically our DM likes to have us roll a die to see how effective something is. Like how do I compare to the bard when singing? He is a DM thats really always on the fly and uses our rolls to determine what is happening, even If I'm not making money off it.

He had our truenamer roll an oratory check to see how good his speech was for my dead character. Then the rest of us had to make will saves to not cry. The bard though gave up on her save cause she was going to cry regardless.

While I understand that many people would be upset that the DM is forcing their character to do things via die rolls, we enjoy it at times.

MeeposFire
2011-01-31, 02:01 AM
That is fine you do not need ranks in perform to sing. Just sing and enjoy the hilarity of singing poorly. Tell the other players the singing will continue until morale improves.:smallsmile:

Hammerhead
2011-01-31, 02:02 AM
Typically our DM likes to have us roll a die to see how effective something is.
You're not trying to tear at people's heartstrings with a cartoon ditty, are you?
Perform isn't a Trained-Only skill.

Triskavanski
2011-01-31, 02:16 AM
Actually, I'd really love to be able to tear at peoples heart strings with a cartoon ditty.

After all, I'm a CE three headed beast of a wolfman who helps at a local soup kitchen. Anything the party kills gets turned into soup.

Oh and I'm in a city that while being mostly LN, has its largest guild being made of people who are typically LG.

MeeposFire
2011-01-31, 02:20 AM
Is there a soulmeld anywhere that improves perform? That would solve the problem very well.

Greenish
2011-01-31, 09:54 AM
Indeed most things are but my damage was mostly average outside of that con damage so undead were not my favorite enemies.Well, that's understandable. If I was going around biting my enemies, I'd prefer the fresher ones too.

It scales awfully by its own accord, but what about when applied to the dread carapiece, a bard, druid and truenamer?It still scales awfully, you just have other effects to compensate. :smalltongue:

Person_Man
2011-01-31, 10:24 AM
Is there a soulmeld anywhere that improves perform? That would solve the problem very well.

No, there isn't.


People don't use Threefold Mask because it specially states that it only adds one secondary attack, and the bonus gained from essentia invested into it is less useful then the bonus gained from Girillion Arms (Grapple) or Heart of Fire (Fire damage to ALL natural weapons) or various other things. People avoid Displacer Mantle (2 tentacles, but it's a Standard Action to use) for the same reason.

At level 2ish, I typically bind one of the following to my Totem:

Girillion Arms: 4 attacks (plus whatever you get from other soulmelds and your primary attack) and a bonus to Grapple.
Basalisk Mask: At will Stone to Flesh.
Frost Helm: At will 20 ft Stun effect that lasts for 1d4 rounds. Great against enemies who carry weapons, because Stun makes you drop them.
Gorgon Mask: Trample, which utterly rocks at low levels, especially against Flat Footed enemies.
Heart of Fire: Adds Fire damage to all natural weapons. A variant Kobold with 1 feat gets Claw/Claw/Bite/Tail, not counting any soulmelds. With this added to it, they're utterly deadly.

Greenish
2011-01-31, 10:35 AM
No Landshark Boots? With decent strength, they're pretty deadly at lower levels, all four being primary, and the Jump check isn't that bad provided you don't have to do it standing still (or have, say, goliath's mountain movement or the like).

Triskavanski
2011-01-31, 12:45 PM
But why have only a single primary and a bunch of secondaries when you could have a set of primaries and a couple secondaries?

I mean, as we found out earlier, it is a full attack action, not a full round action. Which would mean that like a chimera you can apply any secondary attacks you wanted, right?

While the Displacer beast says as a full round action.

The girillion arms are only good once you throw in a bunch of other stuff and have it bound to not one, but two chakra, yet the same treatment doesn't seem to be given to the chimera.

Sure, I don't get enhancement bonuses for investing incarnum into it. But I'm already running at my full str and AB with not one, but three attacks.

Greenish
2011-01-31, 01:10 PM
But why have only a single primary and a bunch of secondaries when you could have a set of primaries and a couple secondaries?Girallon Arms allows claws from other sources to be used as primaries, while they act as secondaries. The kobold has a pair of primaries (claws). Landshark Boots is 4 (!) primaries.

The girillion arms are only good once you throw in a bunch of other stuff and have it bound to not one, but two chakra, yet the same treatment doesn't seem to be given to the chimera.Girallon Arms are good because every point of essentia invested in them increases the damage and to hit of each claw (so it's basically 1:4 essentia:damage ratio). It needs no other melds, though pounce is pretty nice.

Hitting often is better than just making attacks often.

[Edit]: If you give your totemist's level, feats and str, it'll be pretty simple to calculate which combination does most damage. (And I don't mean to claim that you have to use the best one, since what you have is more than adequate.)

Person_Man
2011-01-31, 01:45 PM
But why have only a single primary and a bunch of secondaries when you could have a set of primaries and a couple secondaries?

Obviously this varies based on your level and books allowed, but it all comes down to math. It's an ok low level choice, but at mid to high levels you can get more damage per round with other soulmelds bound to your Totem, and/or by using other natural weapons or a manufactured weapon as your primary attack routine.

Triskavanski
2011-01-31, 01:56 PM
Girallon Arms allows claws from other sources to be used as primaries, while they act as secondaries. The kobold has a pair of primaries (claws). Landshark Boots is 4 (!) primaries.
Girallon Arms are good because every point of essentia invested in them increases the damage and to hit of each claw (so it's basically 1:4 essentia:damage ratio). It needs no other melds, though pounce is pretty nice.

Hitting often is better than just making attacks often.

[Edit]: If you give your totemist's level, feats and str, it'll be pretty simple to calculate which combination does most damage. (And I don't mean to claim that you have to use the best one, since what you have is more than adequate.)

How does girallon arms allow you to use your claw attacks on the arms that it gave claw attacks to? You only have 4 arms when you use it. Not six.

Anycase.. my totemist..

Level 2
Feats -
Tooth and Nail (Gain bite and 2 claw attacks d4 each for damage can be used as secondaries.)
Multi-attack
Dragon Touched

Str 18

Flaws
Beastial : -2 to attack rolls with manufactured weapons.
No time for book learning: Can never learn to read, -2 to knowledge checks.


Even if those gorrilla claws though gain +1 for every point of essteria, You are still 1/2 my str and at a lower ab. So you have t spend 2 points just to get to chimera's level. It also doesn't stack with a necklace of natural weapons.

Greenish
2011-01-31, 02:19 PM
Level 2
Feats -
Tooth and Nail (Gain bite and 2 claw attacks d4 each for damage can be used as secondaries.)
Multi-attack
Dragon Touched
Str 18So, we assume 50% base change to hit an enemy (ie. enemy with 15 AC).

Expected damage for full attack (not counting crits, 'cause I'm lazy):
Girallon Arms + feat bite = 16.65
Landshark Boots* = 20.52
Landshark Boots* + Pegasus Cloak = 22.8
Threefold Mask + feat claws = 15.35
Threefold Mask + Dread Carapace + feat claws = 17.3

*Not full attack, assumes move (at least 20') and standard.


So yeah, the mask is still pretty good at lower levels.

Triskavanski
2011-01-31, 02:34 PM
I plan on later throwing in sphinx claws to hands, allowing a full attack as part of a charge. By then I'm also hoping to have a few draconic melds to add to list of attacks, even though they require standard actions to use.

Need to load up on Enlarge person drinks.

Coidzor
2011-01-31, 02:45 PM
Need to load up on Enlarge person drinks.

Better off getting one of your support-focused party members to use a wand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm)of it on you, 50 uses for 750 gp, when 3 potions would cost the same.

Or buy them a pearl of power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems/wondrousitems.htm#pearlofPower) or two and have them cast it on you for 2-3 combats in a day and have a nifty item for extra first level spells like identify or something for downtime/non-combat days. That's 2/day for however long the campaign lasts in comparison with 4 potions which would only last at that level of use for 2 days. Bumping up to 3/day with 2 pearls of power (1st level spells) costs 2K gp and the 8 potions equivalent in cost to that would only last 2.6666 days at that level of use.

Triskavanski
2011-01-31, 04:16 PM
Well truely it would be even better if I had taken one of the house-ruled traits such as large, where you go up a size catagory, and lose 2 dex. (Don't gain any str.)

As i'm not sure which of the two real spell casters would be able to do that. (Bard/Druid)

Glimbur
2011-01-31, 05:42 PM
The Wormtail Belt is a couple extra points of AC. Not flashy, but worth considering if you are at a loss for another soulmeld to shape.

Triskavanski
2011-02-01, 12:44 AM
here is a few more questions I have..

say I have the chimera in my crown chakra (Just naming off one that i think was there.) and I bind it to my totem chakra.

Could I also bind it to the crown?
Could I wear a helm if I don't have it bound to the crown?
Could I take the feat that allows multiple magic items to be worn for a "slot"? IE: like an Ettin could take the feat and wear two necklaces because he has two heads.

Coidzor
2011-02-01, 03:00 AM
Well truely it would be even better if I had taken one of the house-ruled traits such as large, where you go up a size catagory, and lose 2 dex. (Don't gain any str.)

As i'm not sure which of the two real spell casters would be able to do that. (Bard/Druid)

UMD is a class skill for bards. He's doing something wrong if he's neglected that.

dextercorvia
2011-02-01, 08:56 AM
here is a few more questions I have..

say I have the chimera in my crown chakra (Just naming off one that i think was there.) and I bind it to my totem chakra.

Could I also bind it to the crown?

Only later when you get the Totemist ability to do so.


Could I wear a helm if I don't have it bound to the crown?

Yes, only bound chakras occupy slots.



Could I take the feat that allows multiple magic items to be worn for a "slot"? IE: like an Ettin could take the feat and wear two necklaces because he has two heads.

I'm not familiar with that one, but I kind of doubt it.