Optimizing Dancing Chains

[Hanuman]

Alright guys, this thread is dedicated to maximizing the spell Dancing Chains from page 90 in the Book of Vile Darkness.

Even though it's technically not an evil spell, it's an intimidating one, and can turn from a simple binding/NL suppression spell to a real horrorshow.


Dancing Chains
Transmutation
Level: Demonologist 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One chain per level within range
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The text goes on to say you can "control" 1 chain per level (which means animate magically, which you can use to dance or move as you want, giving a huge amount of flavor to the spell, allowing you to combine with illusions or put chinese dragon puppets on, ect.

Secondly, you improve the chains length by up to 15', and optionally at any time can sprout razor barbs.

Thirdly, by sacrificing a standard action every time you wish to control the chains (it's not concentration, so you can stop and start controlling any time in the duration), you may grapple or attack with them individually (with the casters normal ranged attack mod for attacks or grapples.

Finally, you may climb any said chain without a climb check.

What does this mean?


You gain 1/level animated objects made of anything you want (no save, no SR) for 1minute/level, they grant you an additional length of 15' free.
These chains can "dance or move as you wish" and since no flying ability is mentioned, one assumes that they can move as you want as long as they are in contact with a supporting surface such as a floor. Meaning they could stand on end.
They have no listed speed, it's assumed they can only be controlled within close range (for a level 7 that's a 55' radius) but it's not clearly stated which leaves room for abuse, but what it comes down to is that they can move anywhere within that range at infinite speed, if they could do so normally, which includes fitting in small holes and climbing, swimbing, moving through difficult terrain, ect.
Effective vs. dispell magic, as you have several objects, and one 4th level spell that is countered by several 3rd level spells is a clear winner.
The length of the chain is not listed, nor is the weight. As it stands, you could control extremely lengthy and or extremely thick chains, allowing you to "elevator" grappled creatures into the air, or climb up and down cliffs with no check.
Move a chain while climbing it, reasonably up to your normal climbing speed, literally non-listed speed, or infinite speed.


Things to optimize:

What "chains" would be the best choice?

Raise the Normal Ranged Attack Roll usage for grappling and spiked chain use, how do I go about this?

More flavor/horror/tricks suggestions? Any rules lawyers see any holes in this to exploit or tone down?

[Keld Denar]

Two words...Fell Draining!

[Radar]

Two words...Fell Draining!
You mean: Snowcasting, Flash frost, Fell Draining. :smalltongue:

Questions: by sacrificing a standard action you get to controll all of the chains at once or just change orders for one of them? Do you get to order them on the turn you cast the spell or on the next (by spending a standard action)?

[Hanuman]

You mean: Snowcasting, Flash frost, Fell Draining. :smalltongue:

Questions: by sacrificing a standard action you get to controll all of the chains at once or just change orders for one of them? Do you get to order them on the turn you cast the spell or on the next (by spending a standard action)?
Does fell drain work on spells like this? Same with snowcast and flashfrost?

A: You get to control all of them, otherwise they are not controlled by you and are assumed non-hostile, though the wording is slightly vague enough to assume they could be controlled to do something and continue doing it the next round, but for that I generally just grapple them and then lock the chain together with unseen servants and simple locks which I pull out of my junk golem periodically.

The way its loosely worded is that you can basically use the chains to make X attacks, one with each chain individually, or otherwise control their movement as you wish.

To expand beyond that, they are able to lift "you" with no climb check, and for an exiled modron that's 500+lbs (500 base plus max load), so its reasonable to assume they could also lift that amount individually.

Tactics-wise, it's assumed as long as you can see the enemy, you can attack them perfectly, if you can't see them then they have total concealment.

This means that a wall of stone spell can be easily augmented to have murder-holes or arrow-slits and the chains can climb right through while enemies can not, leaving you to attack anything on the other side.

Further, you can use long lasting spells such as clouds, pits, damage walls, ect. to do the damage when your grappling, as you can grapple enemies then drag them into the spells with impunity.

The chains CAN be made from adamantium and the spell does not state that the extra length is lost, so strictly speaking you technically could make a fair bit off the spell, other than that it would give you 7+ adamantium spiked chain attacks per round, which is clearly better than mountain hammer strike for carving up a dungeon.

"Chains" are vague, you could use any sort chain made of anything and are of any length, which means you could have a 2 or 3 link chain to minimize the weight, cost and baggage.

The chains could have other effects, they could be already animated or an item familiar, they could really be anything that is a "chain" because theres no SR and no save so it doesn't matter. This could mean you could use +5 spiked chains, presumably, or even the chains on a chain golem.

As I mentioned, these can stand on end, allowing them to be as "tall" as their length, which gives them a vertical reach of their original length +15', and a grapple that far too.

The chains can be worked individually at the same time, allowing you to grapple and aid grapple until you are comfy with their inability to escape, then wail on them with the spiked chains, or grapple multiple foes without falling under the penalties for if you were to actually multigrapple.

Thoughts? Expansions?

[TalonDemonKing]

I'd post some sort of obligiatory anime girl erotically tied up, but I'm assuming you wanted a different kind of 'Optimization'. As far as random stuff goes, however, I'd also want to point to anything Saw related, making enemies take damage by crawling through walls of spiked chains.

Although, now that I think about it, could you use this as some sort of cheap fly spell? Since you don't need to make climb checks, you can animated the chains to float in mid-air and hook to the ceiling, allowing you to hold on and throw spells from above.

Another idea would be the seeing if you can't make trip actions with the chain, and see if the enemy provokes an attack of oportunity from the chains whenever they stand back up.

[Hanuman]

making enemies take damage by crawling through walls of spiked chains.

Although, now that I think about it, could you use this as some sort of cheap fly spell? Since you don't need to make climb checks, you can animated the chains to float in mid-air and hook to the ceiling, allowing you to hold on and throw spells from above.

Another idea would be the seeing if you can't make trip actions with the chain, and see if the enemy provokes an attack of oportunity from the chains whenever they stand back up.
1) There's a spell like that called wall of chains.

2) The fly speed sounds flavorful, but not useful as I could just cast fly on myself. The utility of having chains to carry you above the ground is that you don't need to use actions to move, you just move. THOUGH I could def. use swift fly when mounting or dismounting that height in a hurry.

3) It's attacks as if it were a spiked chain, but from the wording it doesn't look like you can trip, not that you need to with how grappling rules are stated:


Joining a Grapple
If your target is already grappling someone else, you can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target doesn’t get an attack of opportunity against you, and your grab automatically succeeds. You still have to make a successful opposed grapple check to become part of the grapple.

If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, you pick one to make the opposed grapple check against.

Multiple Grapplers
Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple.

When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent.

Since your chains are not classified, technically this is infinite chains, but otherwise it'd probably be tiny, so I don't think you have to worry about reaching grapple capacity.

This means that in a single round, you could close the gap with your infinite speed, attempt several if not over a dozen grapple checks, once the first one hits all the rest succeed, and then the foe must make individual grapple checks vs. all of the chains on it, and succeed them all, or next round there's going to be several more grappling back on.

If your item familiar is a chain, you can use spells that radiate energy from "You" on the chain, heat or chill metal could be another good trick, but generally a huge amount of battlefield control spells synergize with this, as it can both move and prone you pretty easily, and a few adamantium chains can provide a quick escape and or entrance route while inside an enclosed area.

[Radar]

2) The fly speed sounds flavorful, but not useful as I could just cast fly on myself. The utility of having chains to carry you above the ground is that you don't need to use actions to move, you just move. THOUGH I could def. use swift fly when mounting or dismounting that height in a hurry.
Hmm... they have no listed speed within the spell area, which is centered on the caster. They can carry the caster, thus carrying the spell area with them. Conclusion: the wizard can carry himself with arbitrary speed and perfect manuverability. :smallcool:

As for the fell drain issue: snowcasting can be added to any spell as far as I know. Flashfrost probably not, but I can't tell for sure. If Flashfrost is fair game, then Fell Drain is only natural. If it's not, nothing stops you from from dipping those chains in poison or scribing some funny runes and symbols on them.

[Hanuman]

Hmm... they have no listed speed within the spell area, which is centered on the caster. They can carry the caster, thus carrying the spell area with them. Conclusion: the wizard can carry himself with arbitrary speed and perfect manuverability. :smallcool:

As for the fell drain issue: snowcasting can be added to any spell as far as I know. Flashfrost probably not, but I can't tell for sure. If Flashfrost is fair game, then Fell Drain is only natural. If it's not, nothing stops you from from dipping those chains in poison or scribing some funny runes and symbols on them.
1) Hm, good point, great usage.

2) Great idea, I'd probably guild the chains in Golden Ice (BoED) and maybe a dex poison to further debuff their touch AC, but for a few thousand the former is probably the best alchemical option as theres no risk poisoning you if your not evil.

More ideas?