I Have Just Found a HUGE Mary Sue [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

MoonCat

2011-01-30, 07:15 PM

This is gonna be scary, sit back. Also, there will be spoilers.

The story is set in the future, where a High Echelon whose favorite color is gold has destroyed much of the environment, after defeating a good sorceress called Fuchsia and her Silver Owls. Now for centuries Twelve Mages carry on on the Silver Prophecy in search of the Owl Keeper who will magically heal the world by Owlsong when the two halves of the moon (it was split by the Echelon) have beams that cross over each other. (This whole story is a Mary Sue, but wait) There are people called Night Seers who are born with an owl birthmark, the Echelon poisons them slowly with magical evil blood. One of them, Max, who is the main character, and is being poisoned meets Mary Sue.

Her name is Artemis Rose Eccles, has coppery hair and green eyes. She is also a Night Seer. She alone knows that the High Echelon is evil and is fighting them after her dad was imprisoned. In the next few chapters she discovers a prophecy left for Max, breaks into the High Echelon's laboratory, fights off a pile of monsters (saves Max), gets blinded, and pulls Max on an adventure as runaways.

Have I mentioned that she knows everything about what the Echelon's been doing?

After saving the life of a dog, naming him Helios, saving Max, some more, and making some important discoveries (all while totally blind and injured) she takes him to the Silver Tower, where a flock of silver Owls fly them to Max's grandmother, who is apparently a Mage, she gets her eyes fixed so she can even see auras. Then she dresses up nicely, Max falls in love with her, and he turns out to be the Owl Keeper.

The whole book is stuffed with her being brave, witty, smart and beautiful.

The first thing she says in the book is "Death doesn't scare me"

So, tell me your thoughts,

Tengu_temp

2011-01-30, 07:24 PM

I'd say the Major from Ghost in the Shell is still a bigger Sue.

chiasaur11

2011-01-30, 07:25 PM

My first thought, honestly?

"If a man says he is not afraid of dying, he is either lying or is a Gurkha."

Followed by some Untouchables TV show quote or other half remembered about anyone who's never afraid being either insane or a fool.

So, yeah. Sounds bad.

GenericGuy

2011-01-30, 07:26 PM

Was she sexually abused? All female Mary-Sues have been sexually abused, or at least had abusive parents.

MoonCat

2011-01-30, 07:27 PM

Was she sexually abused? All female Mary-Sues have been sexually abused, or at least had abusive parents.

Nope, but I don't think that's a prerequisite... Both of her parents are in the Echelon's prisons.

GenericGuy

2011-01-30, 07:38 PM

Nope, but I don't think that's a prerequisite... Both of her parents are in the Echelon's prisons.

Hmm strange; female Mary-sues tend to go for “PITY ME!!!!!” approach when they have any character at all. So some extremely minor points for avoiding that pit, still a Sue though.

MoonCat

2011-01-30, 07:52 PM

She's more like this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PossessionSue) Sue, being what the author wishes she was like. Also, she's like this:
"Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies , Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood."

AshDesert

2011-01-30, 10:33 PM

No, you haven't. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWesley) This does sound pretty bad though

Katana_Geldar

2011-01-30, 10:38 PM

Even Wil Wheaton hated Wesley. One of my friend's dreams is to say to him "Shut up, Wesley!"

Lurkmoar

2011-01-30, 11:02 PM

Richard A Knaak wrote up a fairly big Sue with Rhonin in Day of the Dragon, basically a powered up Khadgar.

Though Artemis Rose Eccles really sends warning bells off in my head... is that from a published book or fanfiction?

Moff Chumley

2011-01-30, 11:09 PM

Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way.

[/thread]

MoonCat

2011-01-31, 12:08 AM

Nevermind, I have just found a very large Mary Sue, what do you think? (Why did I post that thread name?) And it's a real book, I got an advance reader's copy somehow.

Lurkmoar

2011-01-31, 02:25 AM

Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way.

[/thread]

Good golly, my eyes. I forced myself to read the first chapter. Thinking about it makes me what to go devour a snickers ice cream bar to take away the pain.

MoonCat, what book is this Mary Sue in? So I can you know... avoid it.

Partof1

2011-01-31, 02:33 AM

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a Mary Sue?

Lurkmoar

2011-01-31, 02:40 AM

Mary Sue=Someone so perfect in every way that their mistakes result in good things. Example: bad temper that leads an ordinary person to make poor judgments just makes Mary Sue more determined. Expect lots of Deus Ex Machina and before unmentioned hidden skills/powers/inventions to bail Mary Sue out.

They're also SUPER SPECIAL! and prone to having impossible cool clothes and magical looking eyes. Even supposedly plain Mary Sues will have guys and gals falling for them.

It's tough to describe a Mary Sue... much easier to understand one after seeing one in action.

Partof1

2011-01-31, 02:54 AM

Ah, more or less a protagonist whose only problem is the antagonist and co. And even they are swiftly dealt with.

Edit, nevermind. Looking at the TVTropes page for this, and I'm starting to understand

Marnath

2011-01-31, 03:01 AM

Even Wil Wheaton hated Wesley. One of my friend's dreams is to say to him "Shut up, Wesley!"

I really don't get the Wesley hate. Personally I thought he was well written (aside from his first two appearances) and I thought he fit in with the rest of the cast fine.

Xondoure

2011-01-31, 03:19 AM

I think the problem with Mary Sue's is not what they can do or how they look but how they are handled. There is nothing inherently wrong with having an interesting looking character who can blast fireballs, but there is an issue if whenever anyone interracts with this person they have to pass a willsave with a ridiculous DC not to turn into their slothering worshipper. Then again that could make for a very interesting villain...

The point is it's more of a problem with protagonist meets bad writing than the abilities of the character. Someone can be perfect and still be interesting, otherwise Superman would have been out of the business a long time ago.

Lurkmoar

2011-01-31, 03:28 AM

I really don't get the Wesley hate. Personally I thought he was well written (aside from his first two appearances) and I thought he fit in with the rest of the cast fine.

The Wesley hate comes from the fact that so many episodes seemed to center around him. It's okay for one person to save the Enterprise an episode or so, but they took it a bit too far. I think part of it was the writers strike that hit in season 2.

Ravens_cry

2011-01-31, 03:36 AM

I really don't get the Wesley hate. Personally I thought he was well written (aside from his first two appearances) and I thought he fit in with the rest of the cast fine.
A kid shows up adults with years of training and experience aboard a military/science vessel. You tell me what's not wrong with that situation. Also, first impressions count for a lot. Remember how Ferengi were meant to be the next Big Bad Menace?

Killer Angel

2011-01-31, 03:58 AM

A kid shows up adults with years of training and experience.

It can happen. Usually, he's named Alexander the Great. :smalltongue:

Ravens_cry

2011-01-31, 04:29 AM

It can happen. Usually, he's named Alexander the Great. :smalltongue:
Alexander may have been young, but he was hardly a kid when he was crowned king of Macedonia. If you are talking about the story about the horse, its possible, but powerful people tend to have stories of legendary feats that are just that, legendary.

Killer Angel

2011-01-31, 04:43 AM

Alexander may have been young, but he was hardly a kid when he was crowned king of Macedonia. If you are talking about the story about the horse, its possible, but powerful people tend to have stories of legendary feats that are just that, legendary.

My point was merely: young military genius > experience.
(and Alexander received also an education of a level decisely high).

And I doubt it can be applied to Wesley.

Ravens_cry

2011-01-31, 04:50 AM

My point was merely: young military genius > experience.
(and Alexander received also an education of a level decisely high).

And I doubt it can be applied to Wesley.
Young military teachers with the best education and teachers of the age, like Aristotle. Therein lies the difference.
You are right, this can not be applied to Wesley.

Katana_Geldar

2011-01-31, 05:28 AM

Wesley was also a prick and Picard did not allow him on the bridge, and he wandered in there against the captain's orders.

Yora

2011-01-31, 06:17 AM

But he did not get any negative consequences and instead turned out to be praised and rewarded for the things he did after breaking the rules.
That's a Mary Sue

I don't think which episode it is, but he always gets praised and rewarded at the end of everything he does.

Katana_Geldar

2011-01-31, 06:21 AM

Including disoveying the captain when he tells him he's not allowed on the bridge. Grrrrr

AsteriskAmp

2011-01-31, 07:13 AM

Good golly, my eyes. I forced myself to read the first chapter. Thinking about it makes me what to go devour a snickers ice cream bar to take away the pain.

MoonCat, what book is this Mary Sue in? So I can you know... avoid it.

The book is called "The Owl Keeper" (http://www.amazon.com/Owl-Keeper-Christine-Brodien-Jones/dp/0385738145)
By: Christine Brodien-Jones

Without a word she whipped around, glaring at him with a haughty expression.

Looking into those green eyes, too big for her face, Max could see that the girl was different in a scary kind of way. Those eyes had a lean, hungry look. Her woolly black coat hung to her ankles, a spider dangling from the hem. Sticking out from under it were long, bumpy toes. Nobody around here dressed in clothes like that, and nobody Max knew would dream of going barefoot in this damp climate.

Serpentine

2011-01-31, 07:14 AM

I still reckon the main character from... Dragon Master is right up there. For starters, the book's called Dragon Master. For seconds, here is what I remember of what he had done up until the point where I went "You know what? There are a lot of books I would actually enjoy reading, and this one is way too thick to get through it on a matter of principle":

1. Rescued a bunch of kittens. Yes, that is the first thing he did in the whole book. Saved kittens. From a bully.
2. Ran away from home so as not to be a bother.
3. Found a wild dragon and - never having even seen a dragon except from an extreme distance away - jumped on its back and rode it expertly.
4. Joined the army and told his superior officers what they should do, was ignored and then was proven right.

Then I gave up. It just went from one exploit of the boy's to another without... anything much at all in between. Don't recall seeing any flaws in him, either. A touch of largely groundless melancholy, perhaps.

Lillith

2011-01-31, 07:55 AM

I always found that this little story (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20051212) portrayed what a Mary Sue is, quite nicely.

Somebloke

2011-01-31, 07:57 AM

Oh, the Black Jewels trilogy. By far the worst I have ever read, and the author was being completely serious. I think that the she either has no concept of restraint when it comes to putting their wet dreams to paper or wanted to see how far she could go before the editor stepped in. And the editor then proceeded to rubber-stamp it without reading it.

The character- who we first met as a five year old child- is insanely powerful, on level of a god, stronger than any other person in creation since the very first magic-user. The male protagonists- nigh-immortal sex-god killing machines who are kept as slaves of the baddie- immediately vow to be her eternal servant/consorts. She is friends with dragons, wolves, unicorns, giant killer spiders who see the future (and by 'friends' I mean that they have also sworn themselves to her upon first meeting). The lord of Hell trips over himself to be her father figure. Despite all of this she is hated by her family, diddled by her uncle and then sent to a 'school for disturbed children' where she is systematically abused despite being technically able to level the place with a thought. Said abuse leaves her emotionally fragile in a way that only her consort can possibly heal with underage sex tender love.

Oh, and her 'true form' is some sort of gorgeous girl-unicorn-wolf-vampire thing with the body of an 18-year old supermodel...at 12.

Oh and all of the above happens in the first book. Of three.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-01-31, 08:52 AM

I'd say the Major from Ghost in the Shell is still a bigger Sue.

Despite being rediculously awesome and all, the Major's actual accomplishments seem limited enough to not make her that bad of a Mary Sue. Being an assassin for a corrupt government that gets away with screwing her over on occaison isn't exactly a standard Mary Sue occupation. She ends up with a sympathetic PM in the tv series but its not like anyone randomly falls in love with her and renounces their evil ways or she saves the world by going on a killing spree against the corrupt governemt.

2nd GiG has her pretty much lose at the end.

I don't see how she can rank high on the "traversty" level of Mary Suesm. She's only a little worse than James Bond.

Zen Monkey

2011-01-31, 09:13 AM

Steven Seagal, as just about any of his 'characters.' I'm sure the characters have names, but it doesn't matter. The other characters are only there to talk about how great/cool/special he is. He never shows any personality or talent other than being the unstoppable doughball of wooden acting.

Alice, of the Resident Evil films, is a good candidate too.

Zaydos

2011-01-31, 10:55 AM

I don't see how she can rank high on the "traversty" level of Mary Suesm. She's only a little worse than James Bond.

The funny thing is James Bond was based fairly closely on his creator (suave master spy who always got the girl and worked with Christopher Lee on a team of elite secret agents doing...?).

As to what a Mary Sue is... there are a lot of different definitions ranging from the original (the above linked Girl Genius comic defined the original wondrously), to side-character with super special unique backstory who completely overshadows the main protagonist, to overpowered protagonist, to anyone who has main character traits and the person dislikes.

Thufir

2011-01-31, 11:39 AM

My immediate thought on seeing this thread title: "People will disagree. It's always going to be debatable who is a bigger Sue than who."
"Unless you mean biggest as in physically largest, in which case a consensus might be reached."

dehro

2011-01-31, 02:14 PM

meh.. I have a problem with the concept of Tropes as a whole, as they tend to be simply an expression of tastes and negative remarks about something that somebody hates, for whatever reason that may be, mostly personal taste spiced up with some objective "miswritings" and generalisations.
mary sue is just that..yes, there are "levels of unobtainable perfection" in the character that are beyond what other charaters can or will ever achieve, and when it's repeated to often it becomes stale..but ultimately what makes the mary sue so irritating is the aura of "top level student who does everythin with ease", that will always find enough mediocre people who have been irked by a similar figure in real life and will take it out on the poor fictional character.. forgetting that sometimes people like that exist for real, and that it doesn't mean that life, in the end, will not regale them with a shovel of cow-dung or two.

all of the above is of course a generalisation and purely my subjective view, but that kinda gives strenght to what I'm trying to say, namely that tropes are ultimately an expression of dislike shared by enough people to give it a name of it's own.
but if you start thinking like that, ANYTHING in life is a trope of some kind, and we're all pretty much doomed
http://gal.darkervision.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/frazerdm1112_228x374.jpg

Telonius

2011-01-31, 02:24 PM

Young military teachers with the best education and teachers of the age, like Aristotle. Therein lies the difference.
You are right, this can not be applied to Wesley.

Joan of Arc, then. She has a pretty strong candidacy for being the biggest Mary Sue in real-life history.

Sholos

2011-01-31, 03:07 PM

Tengu_temp

2011-01-31, 04:32 PM

I don't see how she can rank high on the "traversty" level of Mary Suesm. She's only a little worse than James Bond.

I haven't seen the second series, but basing on her portrayal on the first one and the movies, Matoko Kusanagi:
1. Is much better in everything than all the other members of her squad, including their chosen specialties.
2. Is always right. If there's a disagreement between her and another character, then the other party is always wrong.
3. Breaks the established setting rules. How else are we going to explain that she can hack Bateau into punching himself, within seconds, with just a thought? No other hacker in the setting even approaches the level of being this good!
4. Is clearly the author's favorite character.
5. Is a walking fanservice vehicle, in a way that makes no sense in the setting. Her bisexuality is tacked-on and clearly added only for fanservice, and her aversion to reasonable clothing is jarring in a police/military environment.

1-4 are blatant Mary Sue traits. 5 isn't, but it helps cement the role.

DomaDoma

2011-01-31, 04:34 PM

Authors can't have favorite characters now?

Tengu_temp

2011-01-31, 04:35 PM

Authors can't have favorite characters now?

Not when it causes them to be overprotective about the character and revolve the whole plot around them. See: Masashi Kishimoto, Sasuke.

Reverent-One

2011-01-31, 04:37 PM

3. Breaks the established setting rules. How else are we going to explain that she can hack Bateau into punching himself, within seconds, with just a thought? No other hacker in the setting even approaches the level of being this good!

What about the Laughing man?

DomaDoma

2011-01-31, 04:39 PM

Not when it causes them to be overprotective about the character and revolve the whole plot around them. See: Masashi Kishimoto, Sasuke.

Then that's the Mary Sue trait, not that you can tell the author likes them. (I sure as heck knew Tyrion was GRRM's favorite character, even with all that crap that went down around him. Which was half his fault, might I add.)

Tengu_temp

2011-01-31, 04:40 PM

What about the Laughing man?

That's actually true. He's the main antagonist for most of the series, and his inhuman hacking skills are a plot point. What's the Major's excuse?

And I'm still pretty sure that, while the Laughing Man managed to hack many people at once, he didn't do it so fast and only messed with their perception, without actually controlling their actions. And he, y'know, used an actual computer.

Reverent-One

2011-01-31, 04:48 PM

That's actually true. He's the main antagonist for most of the series, and his inhuman hacking skills are a plot point. What's the Major's excuse?

Being a main character.

And I'm still pretty sure that, while the Laughing Man managed to hack many people at once, he didn't do it so fast and only messed with their perception, without actually controlling their actions. And he, y'know, used an actual computer.

From the GitS wiki

In the Ghost in the Shell series, Laughing Man proves to be the ultimate hacker, capable of such feats as hijacking multiple video streams simultaneously, taking over someone’s cybernetic brain entirely, or even editing his own images out of someone’s cybernetic eyes, and all in real time

He's actually far better than the major. So saying that the Major being as good as she is breaks the rules of the setting isn't the case.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2011-01-31, 05:36 PM

Then that's the Mary Sue trait, not that you can tell the author likes them. (I sure as heck knew Tyrion was GRRM's favorite character, even with all that crap that went down around him. Which was half his fault, might I add.)

Well, really, it was all his fault. "His" refers to "George R. R. Martin's," right? :smallwink:

Closet_Skeleton

2011-01-31, 06:18 PM

I haven't seen the second series, but basing on her portrayal on the first one and the movies, Matoko Kusanagi:
1. Is much better in everything than all the other members of her squad, including their chosen specialties.
2. Is always right. If there's a disagreement between her and another character, then the other party is always wrong.
3. Breaks the established setting rules. How else are we going to explain that she can hack Bateau into punching himself, within seconds, with just a thought? No other hacker in the setting even approaches the level of being this good!
4. Is clearly the author's favorite character.
5. Is a walking fanservice vehicle, in a way that makes no sense in the setting. Her bisexuality is tacked-on and clearly added only for fanservice, and her aversion to reasonable clothing is jarring in a police/military environment.

1-4 are blatant Mary Sue traits. 5 isn't, but it helps cement the role.

6. An AI superbeing explicitly sought her out to merge with and that merger basically makes her a cyberspace god.

I'm not saying she isn't a Mary Sue, just that she isn't the biggest one ever.

She's even more of a Mary Sue in the manga where she has the same generic plucky girl characterisation as most Masamune Shirou heroines.

She's important in the main plot, but the political/conspiracy element of the story means that there's a half-glanced metaplot and her relevance to it is as little more than a tool. Compare her to that guy from Equilibrium who manages to turn a dystopia into a nicer place just by shooting a ton of people. When someone in the government tries to get rid of Mikoto Kusanagi it doesn't bring the whole corrupt system down. Mikoto doesn't even manage to get away with punishing everyone who wrongs her, though she gets away with a lot more than she should.

A truly bad Mary Sue destroys all interest in the plot due to how obvious it is that no enemy can really pose a threat to them and the only bad things that can happen to her will just be an excuse for a tragic backstory or result in her proving too good for this sinful earth.

You might hate her and be watching the series for the other stuff that doesn't have much to do with her, but that stuff existing proves she isn't the worst Mary Sue ever.

dehro

2011-01-31, 10:23 PM

I think you need to read this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools).

I know what tropes are supposed to be...it's the constant and overwhelming disparaging that comes with 99% of the times that grates me.
as it says in the very link you posted, tropes are not bad per se or debasing a work of fiction through their presence..yet people tend to forget that most of the times, and on that website, however much ironically put, most of the tropes are put down in an negative manner

Soras Teva Gee

2011-02-01, 01:55 AM

If the Major is a Mary Sue then so are most protagonists. Yes their are arguable traits present but that applies to almost every competently skilled protagonist. She gets by mostly on clever tricks that derive from her highly cyberized enviroment, not getting magically better so she can fight tanks one handed.

That's actually true. He's the main antagonist for most of the series, and his inhuman hacking skills are a plot point. What's the Major's excuse?

Rule of Funny because Batou is a chewtoy for the setting.

And masterful hacking is her consistent main skill in the first place. Her physical prowess is the logical outgrowth of being a high performance full cyborg and the programs such a thing would require to exist. There's a scene in the manga where the Major hijacks a police woman's body and has her arm glitch out because said woman had five conflicting control softwares loaded. Ultimately the Major struggles because she has limits, a Mary Sue would be able to beat a tank/mecha without a scratch. As opposed to being torn essentially to pieces twice between the movie and the S.A.C.

Besides she very likely routinely works out how to hack Section 9 in case someone else ever tried to.

Shadow of the Sun

2011-02-01, 02:46 AM

I don't know if I'd call him the most Sueish or the biggest or whatever, but the Mary Sue that annoys me most is one Sosuke Aizen. Tite Kubo's admitted that Aizen is his favourite character and man does it show. He gets hit by an established instakill attack? Shrugs it off while smirking. Anything happens? At all? He planned it. The main character level grinds like crazy to match him? He wins- barely- due to intervention by another character and then IMMEDIATELY says that he only won because Aizen let him win.

And all this while the character had another level of power-up to go. Tite Kubo basically demolished any and all interest I had in Bleach for some odd 400 chapters by being stupidly in love with Aizen. At least in Star Trek TNG there were episodes where Wesley wasn't the focal point; once Aizen was THE VILLAIN!!1!, he was the only threat the characters had, he was the only thing the story revolved around. Now that he's gone (although for how long?) it might actually get back to being...well, a somewhat above average shonen story.

Eldan

2011-02-01, 06:50 AM

Yora

2011-02-01, 07:11 AM

As much as I love the manga, movies, and also the series. Within the series, she IS a big Mary Sue.
In the manga and the movies, she's still probably one of the most powerful humans on earth who is really good at a lot of skills. But she does not have everything under control all the time, least of all herself. But in SAC, she is more competent than anyone at everything, all the time! There's nothing she can't do or anything she fails at, and to make things worse she seems rather patronizing of all the specialists she just stole the spotlight from. There are never any doubts or any regrets, she's just plain better than anyone else, and she's always right.

The show is still far too good to not be my favorite show ever, but I much prefer the manga and the movies, in which things are a lot tougher for her and she does do some contemplation on her situation.
(Except Solid State Society, this movie is awful! It's made by the team that made the series and they have the audacity to retroactively belittle the central plot point of the manga and the other movies and shove it aside as something that didn't really matter. :smallmad: As cool as the action scenes are, I watched that one once and sold it on ebay right the next day, never to acknowledge it's existance again.)

Ravens_cry

2011-02-01, 07:55 AM

I've only seen several episodes of Stand Alone Complex and 2 movies, but I found the world and ideas presented intriguing enough to hold maintain interest, whatever the Majors Sue status is.

Megawizard

2011-02-01, 08:12 AM

There is, however, the issue that she is a better brawler than her team's hand-to-hand expert, outsniped the team's sniper, is a better hacker than the team's hacker and so on and so on.

Well, she isn't a better heavy weight than the team's heavy weight, because she loses all her limbs fighting that spider-tank, then the heavy-weight shows up and curb stomps said spider-tank.

The fact that she tried to take said spider-tank head on by herself also means she isn't very good at analyizing situations, wich is another serious handicap compared to the rest of her teammates.

Also by those standards, Negi from Negima would be a Mary Sue since in the recent chapters he easily outfights, outmagics and outdemons every single other character that apeared so far in the series, with the possible exception of his missing father.

While being an 11 year old kid who has only started to learn martial arts for one year, and how to be a demon for a couple months. Yet he easily has better kung-fu than the dudes who spent all their lifes learning it.

The major at least is a veteran elite officer, wich kinda explains her wide array of skills.

Gnoman

2011-02-01, 09:28 AM

Joan of Arc, then. She has a pretty strong candidacy for being the biggest Mary Sue in real-life history.

Maybe in terms of reputation. In actuality she was one of the worst military leaders France ever had (had he generals not outright mutinied on several occasions when she ordered a suicidal attack, Frans wouldn't even exist today), it was just that she restored the French spirit at a time when it was really lagging (this, of course, was far more important). Once the French ware no longer convinced of English military superiority, they were able to fight on even terms.

Lurkmoar

2011-02-01, 10:01 AM

I don't know if I'd call him the most Sueish or the biggest or whatever, but the Mary Sue that annoys me most is one Sosuke Aizen. Tite Kubo's admitted that Aizen is his favourite character and man does it show.

Is that true? Would explain a lot. Aizen could have been a very interesting villain, if his real strength was based around his illusion ability instead of god-like power that required multiple ass pulls to get around. And for a supposed 'Chess master' he had to resort to brute force complaining all the time while he curb stomped everyone.

Trixie

2011-02-01, 11:12 AM

There is nothing inherently wrong with having an interesting looking character who can blast fireballs, but there is an issue if whenever anyone interracts with this person they have to pass a willsave with a ridiculous DC not to turn into their slothering worshipper. Then again that could make for a very interesting villain...

Oh, it has been done, in one excellent book, at that :smallwink:

Closet_Skeleton

2011-02-01, 01:32 PM

(had he generals not outright mutinied on several occasions when she ordered a suicidal attack, Frans wouldn't even exist today)

Unlikely. The British royalty were all French anyway so it wouldn't change much even if they won the 100 years war. Its not like they'd necessarily be able to hold onto France that long anyway.

Yora

2011-02-01, 02:34 PM

Well, she isn't a better heavy weight than the team's heavy weight, because she loses all her limbs fighting that spider-tank, then the heavy-weight shows up and curb stomps said spider-tank.
By using a huge anti-tank cannon. :smallamused:

But as I said, this is the movie. The Mary Sue trait really only shows in Stand Alone Complex, the rest of the franchise is mostly free of it. I guess they just took her badassness from earlier works and hyped her up too much. I think there's quite a number of characters, who become rather one-dimensional as they become more famous and other artists take over.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-02-01, 02:46 PM

But as I said, this is the movie. The Mary Sue trait really only shows in Stand Alone Complex, the rest of the franchise is mostly free of it.

Since the movie's plot is basically "the Major ascends to godhood" due to being sought out as the perfect example of humanity by an AI that's kind of ironic.

I think there's quite a number of characters, who become rather one-dimensional as they become more famous and other artists take over.

Superman for one.

MoonCat

2011-02-01, 02:48 PM

By using a huge anti-tank cannon. :smallamused:

But as I said, this is the movie. The Mary Sue trait really only shows in Stand Alone Complex, the rest of the franchise is mostly free of it. I guess they just took her badassness from earlier works and hyped her up too much. I think there's quite a number of characters, who become rather one-dimensional as they become more famous and other artists take over.

Nancy Drew.

chiasaur11

2011-02-01, 03:02 PM

Superman for one.

Depends on the writer. Ever read All Star Superman?

Fan

2011-02-01, 03:16 PM

The true ultimate Mary Sue. (http://narutofanon.wikia.com/wiki/Seireitou_Hyuga)

Comet

2011-02-01, 03:49 PM

The true ultimate Mary Sue. (http://narutofanon.wikia.com/wiki/Seireitou_Hyuga)

Hey, at least the guy is upfront enough to admit that, yes, this character is nothing more than an idealised version of himself with added superpowers.

It's still all kinds of sad, though. How pointless will you have to feel about your life that you start to live out fantasies of power and love in the Naruto and Bleach universes, of all things :smallsigh:

On the more general topic, I tend to sniff out Mary Sues on the following principle:
If you don't feel any excitement or joy when experiencing a story, but can still clearly tell that the author had the time of his/her life when writing it, there is probably some furious wish fullfilment going on. When an author starts to 'live the dream', so to speak, it tends to show in the writing.

Reverent-One

2011-02-01, 04:02 PM

It's still all kinds of sad, though. How pointless will you have to feel about your life that you start to live out fantasies of power and love in the Naruto and Bleach universes, of all things :smallsigh:

...

I don't know, why don't we ask the people participating in the Bleach In The Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146758) freeform roleplay?

Fan

2011-02-01, 04:52 PM

...

I don't know, why don't we ask the people participating in the Bleach In The Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146758) freeform roleplay?

Why don't we?

<--- Participated.

Though I did join for the sole purpose of getting players from that to expand into the main FFRP verse. :smallwink:

Coidzor

2011-02-01, 04:54 PM

^: I think there's a subtle but crucial difference between RPing for fun and something that's been fetishized to satisfy something missing in one's own life or otherwise acting out some kind of unhealthy fantasy. Generally it's fairly noticeable and skeeves out everyone else involved or even paying attention.

This thread title brings a question to my mind... Are there fat mary sues?

Comet

2011-02-01, 05:03 PM

^: I think there's a subtle but crucial difference between RPing for fun and something that's been fetishized to satisfy something missing in one's own life or otherwise acting out some kind of unhealthy fantasy. Generally it's fairly noticeable and skeeves out everyone else involved or even paying attention.

This sums it up better than the awkward wording in my post above. I've participated briefly in Bleach RP myself, though not on this forum. Nothing wrong with that. Sorry if my post was confusing in that regard.

Soras Teva Gee

2011-02-01, 07:58 PM

There is, however, the issue that she is a better brawler than her team's hand-to-hand expert, outsniped the team's sniper, is a better hacker than the team's hacker and so on and so on.

So Section 9 must operate on a purely Eigen plot basis then?

Also I'd dispute being better on several fronts anyways.

Ishikawa is not primarily a hacker the way the series uses it. He gathers intelligence and does research and analysis, IIRC we've never seen him for example trying to hijack hostile cyber brains. Nor is the Major the team's exposition giver or conjurer of necessary data. They are different specialists in the broad computer field.

Moving on the point of Saito's story was not that the Major out shot him, but that she out bluffed him. Ergo outwitted him with tactics and guts. Whether the Major's current firing control software would out perform whatever Saito uses in a shooting competition is besides the point. (Nevermind this was all before Saito's new eye anyways)

I'm not sure we ever see the Major defuse a bomb so her abilities in Borma actual specialty remain undefined.

Pazu's is more of an enigma then she, though I'd say that's not a terribly good thing

The Major's probably as sly as Aramaki but obviously does not have his depth in politics, clout, and social abilities.

Much the same for Togusa, albeit replacing politcal savy with investigation and personal level interaction, he's clearly there for that human touch when as even in the cyber-brain era its still needed. Though its fairly clear who would take the top spot in Section 9 should Aramaki kick the bucket.

She does pretty clearly outperform Batou, but he's the only other full combat cyborg in the section. When the Major isn't available you need more then one option.

Now all of them clearly cross train and have abilities in almost every area, but that's the point of Section 9 is they form a beneficial symbiosis with one another. Particularly so the loss of any one would not kill the whole.

SiuiS

2011-02-02, 12:03 AM

Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way.

[/thread]

Why? Why would you do this? Do you know how high the Will DCs are on that thing? I need. Restoration now. A lesser one won't cut it, either- I think it's permanent drain.
I'm making SAN rolls, AND THOSE AREN'T EVEN PART OF THIS GAME SYSTEM!
*gibbers*

WhiteHarness

2011-02-02, 10:46 AM

I still think that the worst Mary Sue character on Western television today is the main character from the Bones TV show.

A friend of mine recommended the program to me, and I actually gave the first season a try. I couldn't finish it--it was that bad. The character is insufferably and unrealistically great at everything she tries (hand-to-hand combat, swordfighting, Science!, et-multiple-cetera)--except social skills, and I think that trait is present solely to give the character some sort of pathos.

It was disgusting; it felt like nothing but the author's personal wish-fulfillment fantasy, and apparently, it's the wish-fulfillment fantasy of an awful lot of people out there, otherwise the show wouldn't be so disgustingly popular.

Ick.

Sholos

2011-02-02, 12:14 PM

AshDesert

2011-02-05, 01:08 PM

A friend of mine recommended the program to me, and I actually gave the first season a try. I couldn't finish it--it was that bad. The character is insufferably and unrealistically great at everything she tries (hand-to-hand combat, swordfighting, Science!, et-multiple-cetera)--except social skills, and I think that trait is present solely to give the character some sort of pathos.

She has the worst kind of flaw. The one where we're told they have it (in this case lack of social skills) but other than a few token situations it never affects the character. Really, how many times outside of a couple "See, see. She's socially awkward, LOL!" moments in the show do we actually see it affecting her?

TheArsenal

2011-02-07, 02:06 AM

Phineas and Ferb are mary sues. Just really fun and lovable ones.

FlashRah

2011-02-07, 02:32 AM

The true ultimate Mary Sue. (http://narutofanon.wikia.com/wiki/Seireitou_Hyuga)

Oh wow... :smalleek: That's precious... :smallsmile:

Shadow of the Sun

2011-02-07, 03:17 AM

J.Gellert

2011-02-07, 05:12 AM

Drizzt is a huge Mary Sue in his "origins" trilogy. Not so much because everything goes well for him (it does), but because every other character is fixated on Drizzt and his impossible inborn skill with sword (and spell, for the little while he cared to try it). Even a magical panther from another world just falls in love with him for no real reason. Maybe it's his unique purple eyes and innate goodness. Yes, this one was born good-aligned.

Elminster would qualify too if he wasn't the Author Avatar or whatever you call that :smalltongue:

Comet

2011-02-07, 07:23 AM

Elminister qualifies precisely because he's an author avatar.

Drizzt is might show some signs of this, but at least he's not as blatant about it as Elminister. And hey, at least the earlier books were fun to read, unlike most of the later stuff :smalltongue:

For some reason Drizzt has never bothered me, as a character. Sure, he's pretty high and mighty and his philosophy lessons can get a little silly, but he's still cool with all the sword fighting and the tracking and the vendetta'ing and the raging.
Now Wulfgar, on the other hand. Not a Mary Sue, but annoying to high heaven nonetheless. Dropped the books right there when he started to become an utter, unlikeable retard. Shame.
Oh, I did read one book about Jarlaxle and Entreri later on. They're definitely falling into the 'author likes them too much' box, but I still thought their adventures were cool enough, so there.
Sues are only Sues if I don't like them. Otherwise they're just (anti)heroes :smallsmile:

Innis Cabal

2011-02-07, 07:42 AM

Sun Wukong is another stupidly powerful Sue, but I give him a pass for one simple reason: his Sueishness doesn't detract from the story. The story IS about him and the others being awesome, but it's SO awesome that I don't care he's a sue.

Honestly claiming a mythological being/actual worshiped deity as a Mary Sue makes no sense what so ever.

Shadow of the Sun

2011-02-07, 08:33 AM

Sure it does. There are a bunch of reasons why, but that's getting into religion, and so I won't go into here.

The Glyphstone

2011-02-07, 09:42 AM

Phineas and Ferb are mary sues. Just really fun and lovable ones.

Do they still count as sues then? The term usually implies a character whose perfection detracts from the work, not enhances it. P+F would be a far less entertaining show if their zany schemes didn't always somehow work out.

BlackDragonKing

2011-02-07, 01:37 PM

Sure it does. There are a bunch of reasons why, but that's getting into religion, and so I won't go into here.

Can you really call him a Sue if he's a Buddha? That has some unfortunate religious implications, even if I agree Sun Wukong is crazy powerful.

I always thought that any Stu-Ness from Wukong was kinda balanced by the many people that thought he was a **** and the times he got punished for all the trouble he caused; remember that the Journey To The West was a way for Wukong to redeem himself and learn humility, not just the Monkey King showing off while helping out some priest.

Shadow of the Sun

2011-02-07, 07:28 PM

Sun Wukong was born from an egg of stone formed from pure chaos and had pure awesomeness pouring through his veins- BEFORE he became a Buddha. He was made king of the monkey tribe he joined without any real difficulty...

It's worth noting that I'm not using the term "Sue" in a negative sense. Gilgamesh is an epic Sue- descendant of the Gods, powerful like crazy, all kinds of fun stuff...does that mean I don't love the epic of Gilgamesh? Hell no, it's awesome!

But Sun Wukong is a sue in a literary sense because the story is all about how awesome he is, to the point that he overshadows all the other characters. This doesn't mean he's a bad character. Just because he's doing it as a way to redeem himself doesn't mean that almost EVERY CHAPTER is him swooping in to save the day in a spectacularly epic fashion.

H Birchgrove

2011-02-07, 09:11 PM

Phineas and Ferb are mary sues. Just really fun and lovable ones.

Aren't they Aces?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheAce

H Birchgrove

2011-02-07, 10:21 PM

IMO, Mary Sues/Gary Stus are Author Avatars trying to be the Ace but failing due to limited skills, effort or experience by the author(s). It's pertinent to not accuse a perfectly good Ace or hero for being a Sue.

Or, we can at least accept that some times, one fan's Ace/Hero/Heroic Sociopath is another hater's Sue. Just look at James Bond, Conan the Barbarian, Mike Hammer etc.

Asheram

2011-02-07, 10:38 PM

"If a man says he is not afraid of dying, he is either lying or is a Gurkha."

That name always makes me giggle. Gurka is the swedish word for Cucumber :smallbiggrin:

Why? Why would you do this? Do you know how high the Will DCs are on that thing? I need. Restoration now. A lesser one won't cut it, either- I think it's permanent drain.
I'm making SAN rolls, AND THOSE AREN'T EVEN PART OF THIS GAME SYSTEM!
*gibbers*

Ah yes... That story... I've read some of it, unfortunatly. I think parts of my brain died that day in horror... why is there blood dripping from my nose?