OOTS #772 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Lycar

2011-01-31, 01:36 PM

Seems like poor Ian is a bit too obsessed with a guilt complex, so he is in denial about just how little he is accomplishing by 'rotting in that cell'. :smallfrown:

I mean, he is really not changing anything, but by deluding himself into believing he does do something, he can, well, maintain that delusion instead of being proven just how futile the struggle of one lone man in an uncaring world really is.

Tragic. :smallfrown:

Lycar

DSCrankshaw

2011-01-31, 01:39 PM

I like that we see Elan with Banjo in the background.

Also, I'm not sure this is poor communication skills. They're communicating with each other pretty well. It's just that Ian got to know the family through Tarquin, while Haley got to know them through Elan. That colors how they view things.

factotum

2011-01-31, 01:39 PM

Story obstacles based on poor communication skills always frustrate me.

It's not really a story obstacle. They can save the world without Haley's father along for the ride.

Timberboar

2011-01-31, 01:40 PM

True, but it's probably the only way to show "pigheadedness" in the limited medium of a comic strip.

I'll grant that it's sometimes necessary. Even sometimes for the best.

But still personally frustrating nonetheless. :P

It's not really a story obstacle. They can save the world without Haley's father along for the ride.

I doubt they can even finish up this story arc without his assistance.

Mando Knight

2011-01-31, 01:40 PM

Interesting... Haley's Resistance outfit looks almost identical to her mom's.

LOTRfan

2011-01-31, 01:42 PM

:smallfrown:

Is this finally going to stop the Haley is half-Celestial theory?

Mauve Shirt

2011-01-31, 01:42 PM

Mia looks pretty human to me.
Also: :smallfrown:

Ninjaman

2011-01-31, 01:43 PM

Interesting... Haley's Resistance outfit looks almost identical to her mom's.

You got something there.

fruityjanitor

2011-01-31, 01:44 PM

Awesome update even though it is rather sad.

Loved the panel of Mrs. Starshine's death and the final panel. The final panel is very simple, but still heartbreaking.

The Giant did a great job with the character development of Tarquin and Ian even though they haven't really been in the strip for long. I love it! :smallsmile:

mucat

2011-01-31, 01:45 PM

Kyeudo

2011-01-31, 01:46 PM

*General applause from the peanut gallery*

Yendor

2011-01-31, 01:46 PM

Is this finally going to stop the Haley is half-Celestial theory?

You're new here, aren't you? :smalltongue:

Ron Miel

2011-01-31, 01:46 PM

Will this end the speculation that Haley's mom was a celestial who flew up to heaven?

Probably not.

Leecros

2011-01-31, 01:46 PM

:smallfrown:

Is this finally going to stop the Haley is half-Celestial theory?

It wouldn't be the first time a theory got disproved, but still carried on....

Blanth

2011-01-31, 01:48 PM

Wow!

Seeing Haley's mother downed with an arrow is an interesting touch. No wonder why Haley has proficiency in archery!

Also: Amazing speed on the updates Giant. Much thanks!

homersolo

2011-01-31, 01:50 PM

ckthecerealkill

2011-01-31, 01:51 PM

That is about as deep and sad as it gets right there. Good strip.

immblueversion

2011-01-31, 01:51 PM

Aw, the tension always kills me! :smallannoyed: I want to see what happens next ASAP!

If we're lucky, we'll get more comics this week. Please don't keep us waiting too long, Mr. Giant, I don't think I can handle more than a week not knowing what happens next! :smalleek:

Porthos

2011-01-31, 01:51 PM

So, tell me again who the adult is in this relationship? :smallbiggrin:

C'mon, those last series of panels were a classic parent/child interplay. Just with the roles reversed.

Nice touch, Giant. :smallsmile:

Psyren

2011-01-31, 01:53 PM

Is this finally going to stop the Haley is half-Celestial theory?

She could still be a dragon. In human form.
...
Yeah, I got nothin' :smalltongue:

And my favorite part of the last three strips has been Roy.

C'mon, those last series of panels were a classic parent/child interplay. Just with the roles reversed.

Nice touch, Giant. :smallsmile:

It's a pretty common reversal, especially with the grown-up child dealing with the stubborn and elderly parent.

It's funny though that every human in the Order has serious daddy issues!

TimelordSimone

2011-01-31, 01:54 PM

It's interesting how Haley and Elan have had completely different reactions to re-uniting with their fathers.
(Under different circumstances, admittedly.)

Porthos

2011-01-31, 01:56 PM

It's funny though that every human in the Order has serious daddy issues!

Well Rich is a fan of Lost. :smalltongue:

Gryps2

2011-01-31, 01:56 PM

Man, does anyone in this comic not have daddy issues.

faustin

2011-01-31, 01:56 PM

It´s seem the entire TOoS would have "family issues" with their respective parents.
Anyway, Ian could compite with Eugene in a "Jerk Test"

P.E: (I am dying to know Belkar´s father :smallbiggrin:)

The MunchKING

2011-01-31, 01:57 PM

Tarquin wouldn't have just used his knowledge of Ian to have Ian forced into repeated gladitorial combat? Makes perfect sense.

Well yeah. If you force people who are really good at not-getting hit into combat and they sit there and evade but don't strike back much or desisivly, you end up boring the audience who came there for a blood-spattering fight. That way lies peasent revolutions.

The ideal way to kill Ian would be guards restraining him into some kind of coupdegrace.

Scarlet Knight

2011-01-31, 01:59 PM

Thanatosia

2011-01-31, 02:04 PM

I love Haley's explanation for why she loves Elan.... it always kind of felt at least a little vapid based on his physical attractiveness/CHA score. But Elan is essentialy distilled pure 'good guy' under all that dumbness, and it makes sense that someone with Haley's upbringing could find that very comforting to be around.

Antacid

2011-01-31, 02:04 PM

Wow, everyone has such bad relationships with their parents. It's practically a motif at this point.

NerfTW

2011-01-31, 02:05 PM

Story obstacles based on poor communication skills always frustrate me.

For a couple strips before this, there were wacky miscommunication hijinks -- and I agree with you; I always find those more frustrating than funny. But by the end of this strip there's no miscommunication. Haley and Ian both understand exactly what the other one is telling them, and they each think the other is wrong.

Also, Ian is a doodoohead.

Bingo. I think people are missing the part where Ian has been tortured and starved for the last few years by this man, whose son shows up on a team with his daughter, on another continent, with no idea why.

Ian may be stubborn, but he's not being stupid. He's being emotional. He doesn't want to believe that his resistance is probably not even noticed by Tarquin. Odds are Roy will tell him about the actual mission and the real reason they're on the continent. As it stands now, people are condemning Ian for not having information Haley hasn't shared with him yet.

Timeless Error

2011-01-31, 02:06 PM

Grrrrrrr...that is really frustrating. I feel Haley's pain.

Yay for a double-length comic!

R.O.A.

2011-01-31, 02:06 PM

At this point a Detect Evil spell on Elan would really help, but that's not gunna happen is it? :smallfrown:

Rolaran

2011-01-31, 02:07 PM

My face during this comic:
:smallamused: "Hee hee, Haley's father is amusingly paranoid about Elan. Someone fetch me a tinfoil hat!"
:smallannoyed: "...OK, this is a two-pager, I hope we get something more than Haley and Ian arguing..."

Then the flashback panel hit...
:eek::frown:

Poor Haley, crying in the rain...

Also, on a less emotional note, are we seeing Haley's Batman moment?

Jay R

2011-01-31, 02:07 PM

While I did not expect this comic, I find Ian to be really believable.

Is Ian's trust in only family a fatal flaw? Perhaps with the theory that his sister Ivy or Geoff are the ones keeping him in prison?

It's more than that. Ian is the most paranoid person we've met in the comic -- so paranoid that he will not trust anyone except family. But in this situation (assuming Ivy and maybe Geoff are betraying him), his real problem is still that he isn't paranoid enough.

HandofShadows

2011-01-31, 02:14 PM

I had a feeling that something like this would happen. Ian basically forced Haley to make a choice between him and a group of people she had come to think of as family. Then acted like a jerk doing in. I feel sorry for Haley, but I think it will make her stonger in the end.

Thanatosia

2011-01-31, 02:15 PM

HandofShadows

2011-01-31, 02:16 PM

At this point a Detect Evil spell on Elan would really help, but that's not gunna happen is it? :smallfrown:

Can't, the Jail is a No Magic Zone. Spells won't work.

Thanatosia

2011-01-31, 02:18 PM

Can't, the Jail is a No Magic Zone. Spells won't work.
More to the point, you can't combat illogical assumptions with logical demonstrations. Ian would just believe he magically defeated the detect evil effect somehow.

Hawkeye

2011-01-31, 02:22 PM

Awwww, sad comic is sad :(

It was pretty obvious in the past comics that Ian has paranoia problems but I didn't realise that it ran this deep.

DSCrankshaw

2011-01-31, 02:23 PM

Can't, the Jail is a No Magic Zone. Spells won't work.

You're also not helped by the fact that there's not a spellcaster (besides Elan) in the group. They're all rogues, fighters, and rangers, there.

SmaugTheYounger

2011-01-31, 02:26 PM

At this point a Detect Evil spell on Elan would really help, but that's not gunna happen is it? :smallfrown:

Has been done before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) Didn't really help in the end.

Dust

2011-01-31, 02:28 PM

Heaven forbid Ian Starshine and Eugene Greenhilt ever meet.

immblueversion

2011-01-31, 02:28 PM

For a couple strips before this, there were wacky miscommunication hijinks -- and I agree with you; I always find those more frustrating than funny. But by the end of this strip there's no miscommunication. Haley and Ian both understand exactly what the other one is telling them, and they each think the other is wrong.

Also, Ian is a doodoohead.

I predicted something like this would come to pass. It's what pains me to read, and I'd hate for this form of resentment to linger any longer.

It's more than that. Ian is the most paranoid person we've met in the comic -- so paranoid that he will not trust anyone except family. But in this situation (assuming Ivy and maybe Geoff are betraying him), his real problem is still that he isn't paranoid enough.

I'm kind of hoping on this to link to some form of reconciliation between father and daughter.

Let me start by making one thing clear: I DO NOT THINK IAN IS GIRARD

I don't think that either, but it probably would've made for another Star Wars reference, which definitely seems to be all the rage in this arc. Imagine if Ian knew of Girard for whatever reason and was about to set up a comment similar to how Ben Kenobi revealed he was Obi-Wan, except one of the characters will expect him to say something along those lines, only to learn that's not the case. Talking about it isn't as funny outside my head, but anything to release us from this agonizing emotional tension.

Mr. Snuggles

2011-01-31, 02:35 PM

At first, I was excited! Double comic! And speed demon updates lately!

But then, it was all emo, wall O'text, daddy-doesn't-love-me Talky McTalktalk. Oh well, it's nice to get the plot laid bare AT LAST and move on to the next topic, which will hopefully see our PCs encountering new, non-emo plot complications and solving them with bloodshed. :amused:

cc_kizz

2011-01-31, 02:38 PM

This is so sad! :smallfrown: Poor Haley.

Dvandemon

2011-01-31, 02:40 PM

Story obstacles based on poor communication skills always frustrate me.

Seconded. Frankly, it could have gone like this
:haley::Father, I completely and utterly disagree with from the simple fact that I've spent a lot time with Elan. I knew him long before he knew his father (whom I suspected was evil long before Elan did) and you are condemning him due to the sins of his father. To be blunt, you are being wholly unfair in your judgement of him. I'm not going to force you to come, I expect you to be the adult here and realize your mistakes so you can learn from them.

Or how someone outside looking in would think :smalltongue:

Bibliomancer

2011-01-31, 02:44 PM

Let me start by making one thing clear: I DO NOT THINK IAN IS GIRARD

However, in very short order we have been introduced to at least 2 characters now with overwhelming common sense destroying levels of Paranoia. I wonder if there is some sort of Paranoia theme developing for this arch, or if there is something in the Western Continent or some other shared connection between Ian and Girard that is inciting thise Paranoia, it seems a pretty wierd coincidence that of 2 the 3 major storyline driving characters introduced so far this story arc (Girard, Tarquin, Ian) would suffer from such a psychotic state of hyper paranoia.

On a continent where a shahowy cabal is slowly taking over underneath the chaos of political turmoil and bloodshed is adsurdly common, I'd say that a bit of paranoia is warranted. If anything, being from here explains why Girard is so paranoid, just as growing up in a city of thieves made Ian the same. In places like those, paranoia is a survival trait.

At first, I was excited! Double comic! And speed demon updates lately!

But then, it was all emo, wall O'text, daddy-doesn't-love-me Talky McTalktalk. Oh well, it's nice to get the plot laid bare AT LAST and move on to the next topic, which will hopefully see our PCs encountering new, non-emo plot complications and solving them with bloodshed. :amused:

After a certiain point (probably comic 100 for OOTS), plot is necessary to provide context for random stabbings. There will be plenty of fighting in the arena or when they try to escape.

Mando Knight

2011-01-31, 02:46 PM

Heaven forbid Ian Starshine and Eugene Greenhilt ever meet.

Thankfully, it did. One's Lawful Good (-ish), the other's Chaotic and possibly Good. Two entirely different afterlives. Plus, unless explicitly summoned, Eugene can only manifest to Roy. :smallwink:

mr man

2011-01-31, 02:49 PM

I hope nothing bad happens to ian again assuming the standards of that prison

pedrosette

2011-01-31, 02:50 PM

Please, oh please, God, don't let this evolve to some misunderstanding where she thinks that Elan is actually as evil as his father, and then she's all like "Daddy was right, blood doesn't lie!" and then everybody spends fifty strips just to understand and unravel the goddamn confusion.

Sylthia

2011-01-31, 02:57 PM

Hmm, I wonder if V also has Daddy issues, or in V's case ambiguously gendered parent issues.

Let's hope Belkar didn't hear Ian suggest that he and Haley have a relationship.

otakuryoga

2011-01-31, 03:01 PM

"you can always count on blood, for good or ill"

yeah, i think that pretty well guarentees that it was geoff and ivy that Bozzok was talkin about

NerfTW

2011-01-31, 03:01 PM

another Star Wars reference, which definitely seems to be all the rage in this arc.

There's no "rage" happening. There's no constant Star Wars references. There was ONE JOKE, and then a followup joke, and that was it. The reason everyone keeps spotting "references" is because at it's core, Star Wars is a very generic story. Almost anything can be a reference to Star Wars if you whitewash it enough. And I say that as a total Star Wars fanatic.

This whole "Rich is going to keep making references to Star Wars instead of letting the plot be original" is pretty ridiculous.

Please, oh please, God, don't let this evolve to some misunderstanding where she thinks that Elan is actually as evil as his father, and then she's all like "Daddy was right, blood doesn't lie!" and then everybody spends fifty strips just to understand and unravel the goddamn confusion.

What strip have you been reading for the last 7 years and 772 strips, if you'd even consider such a trite and cliched space filler as a valid possibility?

Grimly Feendish

2011-01-31, 03:04 PM

This is so sad! :smallfrown: Poor Haley.

Look on the bright side - she gets to keep the ransom and counting money has always cheered Haley up.

snoopy13a

2011-01-31, 03:04 PM

Thankfully, it did. One's Lawful Good (-ish), the other's Chaotic and possibly Good. Two entirely different afterlives. Plus, unless explicitly summoned, Eugene can only manifest to Roy. :smallwink:

Ian is almost certainly chaotic good. He is risking his life to try to overthrow an evil dictator for the good of the people in order to be a better person.

One of the best qualities about the Giant's work is that Haley, Elan and Ian are all chaotic good, yet they have widely different personalities. The same with the lawful good characters of Roy, Durkon, and the various Sapphire Guard paladins.

Gettles

2011-01-31, 03:05 PM

So now we have officially seen someone so lawful that it caused problems for those around them(Miko), so good it caused problems(Celia), so evil its a problem for teammates(Belkar) and now we round it off with someone too chaotic in Ian.

I smell SPIN OFF! "Team Extreme" coming this April.

AgentofOdd

2011-01-31, 03:05 PM

Can't, the Jail is a No Magic Zone. Spells won't work.Didn't V manage to contact Roy via sending?

And I agree with Dvandemon. Even though it might not have worked, I do wish Haley told Ian she knew Elan long before there was any thought of rescuing him. That she saw Elan in compromising situations where he could've sacrificed the group to save himself, but he didn't.

Grommen

2011-01-31, 03:10 PM

Seconded. Frankly, it could have gone like this
:haley::Father, I completely and utterly disagree with from the simple fact that I've spent a lot time with Elan. I knew him long before he knew his father (whom I suspected was evil long before Elan did) and you are condemning him due to the sins of his father. To be blunt, you are being wholly unfair in your judgement of him. I'm not going to force you to come, I expect you to be the adult here and realize your mistakes so you can learn from them.

Or how someone outside looking in would think :smalltongue:

But that is how the well adjusted speak to another person. Not your dad. I've said bad things to family that I would never say to anyone else, just because they were family, and I was not thinking.

Second Point: It's not Paranoia, if they are really out to get you. :smallbiggrin: And this poor bugger has been messed with for a very long time. I'm not that surprised that he sees evil everywhere.

And the notion "The apple does not fall far from the tree." exists because family tends to act alike. Seeing Elan as evil till proven not so. Ya I can see that.

It is partly warranted too. Elan's father has big plans for him, even if Elan is unwilling to go with it. So far Elan is kinda screwed. He tried to stop his dad, failed, and is working on plan B. Still how many people are going to believe that Elan turned on dad and lived? Without all the inside knowledge logic states that Elan is in choohoots with his father, and that must mean that Haliey has been blindsided by a pretty bard with blond hair.

I mean who has not fallen for that old trick? :smallbiggrin:

And lastly. How funny would it be if Belkar's family were the nicest people on the planted, well adjusted, had several other upstanding good children, and the mayor of small halfling town.

The Pink Ninja

2011-01-31, 03:12 PM

It's a shame.

Given how stupid Haley's dad is he should get along great with Elan.

Dvandemon

2011-01-31, 03:14 PM

But that is how the well adjusted speak to another person. Not your dad. I've said bad things to family that I would never say to anyone else, just because they were family, and I was not thinking.

Second Point: It's not Paranoia, if they are really out to get you. :smallbiggrin: And this poor bugger has been messed with for a very long time. I'm not that surprised that he sees evil everywhere.

And the notion "The apple does not fall far from the tree." exists because family tends to act alike. Seeing Elan as evil till proven not so. Ya I can see that.

It is partly warranted too. Elan's father has big plans for him, even if Elan is unwilling to go with it. So far Elan is kinda screwed. He tried to stop his dad, failed, and is working on plan B. Still how many people are going to believe that Elan turned on dad and lived? Without all the inside knowledge logic states that Elan is in choohoots with his father, and that must mean that Haliey has been blindsided by a pretty bard with blond hair.

I mean who has not fallen for that old trick? :smallbiggrin:

And lastly. How funny would it be if Belkar's family were the nicest people on the planted, well adjusted, had several other upstanding good children, and the mayor of small halfling town.

Like I said, outside looking in

Raging Gene Ray

2011-01-31, 03:31 PM

This strip elevated Haley to my favorite character. Ian is also close behind now and I even hate Elan a bit less. You know it's good writing when it changes your views of the characters...or anything else, for that matter.

Swordpriest

2011-01-31, 03:36 PM

I too think that Ian is chaotic good (-ish). That, however, doesn't keep him from being a completely pompous, self-centered, paranoid, ignorant buffoon. Excellent writing, although it might make for an unexpected change if someone actually got along with their parents for once! :smallwink:

King of Nowhere

2011-01-31, 03:39 PM

Poor Ian!
HE's worse than Haley has ever been, and there is no room to stuff some good characcter development for him....

HandofShadows

2011-01-31, 03:45 PM

Didn't V manage to contact Roy via sending?

They where outside in the arena at the time. Which should be outside the No Magic Zone.

Themrys

2011-01-31, 03:46 PM

Anyway, Ian could compite with Eugene in a "Jerk Test"

I don't think so.
We don't know how he would treat Haley had she not become a rogue, but we know he does care about her. He'll probably come with the OotS, if only to protect his daughter.

And I doubt Ian would insist on the "till death do us apart" part of his marriage after death...at least he wouldn't do it in the same way Eugene did.

I like Ian. The death-scene of his wife was too cute to dislike him any more :smallsmile:

I bet that either Geoff or Ivy will betray, or have already betrayed Ian. And Elan will see it coming, because this is what happens if you say "You can always trust in family".:smallbiggrin:

Belkars parents would be interesting...I think they're normal halflings and therefore...what was it..."jolly". The fact that Belkars little angel went mad because he's evil implies that Belkar is a very uncommon exception.

And I want to know whether the ambigiously-gendered-ness runs in V's family.

Kairamek

2011-01-31, 03:48 PM

It's funny though that every human in the Order has serious daddy issues!
Rich, do you have something you'ld like to share with the group? :smalltongue:

Seriously though, I spent the read the whole thing tense and waiting for the "you will sit down, shut up, and listen to me" moment. But since it's family that wasn't about to happen. I think the real problem with communication is that they are family. Haley could have made a much better explination of what was happening, but there was a very strong sence of "I am your family, you should just trust me," going on instead.

Ted The Bug

2011-01-31, 03:51 PM

Well, that was...sudden. :smalleek:

pflare

2011-01-31, 03:54 PM

Very powerful. I enjoyed it. It was nice to get a little backstory on Haley too. Great job

Niveus Candidus

2011-01-31, 03:56 PM

There is so much wonderful going on in this strip. It juxtaposes the actions of Ian and Tarquin, the two long-lost fathers, beautifully. The evil Tarquin absolutely accepts his son, while the good Ian distrusts his daughter implacably. Somewhere, right now, a structuralist critic is salivating at the prospect of drawing mediation between the two binaries.

Also, we learned some new backstory. Haley's mother is dead, died, and gone. And that leads to a new, and interesting, question! Ian only trusts family, sure we knew that, but now we are left to wonder:

Who did he trust that got Mrs. Starshine killed? What was she really trying to warn them about, simple thievery or turning into the empty, paranoid recluse a death of her nature might prompt?

Juggling Goth

2011-01-31, 03:58 PM

Oh, Haley. With the tearjerker scene with her mom, and the crowning moment of awesome with her telling her dad how much she's grown... *sniffle* You go, girl.

Also, the Giant is a comic-writing machine recently. Hail to the Giant!

Themrys

2011-01-31, 04:02 PM

Also, we learned some new backstory. Haley's mother is dead, died, and gone.

We know that since Haley remembered how he forbade her to tell an old lady that her mommy was in heaven. Unless you supported the "Haley is half-celestial"-theory`, that is.

I'd like to know how Mr and Mrs Starshine fell in love. Why did Ian trust her?
You're probably right...it must have been his wife's death that triggered Ian's paranoia.

LtPowers

2011-01-31, 04:08 PM

Belkars parents would be interesting...I think they're normal halflings and therefore...what was it..."jolly". The fact that Belkars little angel went mad because he's evil implies that Belkar is a very uncommon exception.

And I want to know whether the ambigiously-gendered-ness runs in V's family.

Of course he's an exception. Halflings are commonly good (except in Dark Sun, admittedly). =) And ambiguous gender appears to be a trait of all elves in the OOtS-verse.

Powers &8^]

CoffeeIncluded

2011-01-31, 04:10 PM

Oh God...:smallfrown:

G-Man Graves

2011-01-31, 04:13 PM

So why doesn't Haley point out that Elan just tried to kill Tarquin? Or even better, why she is ACTUALLY on the continent.

The Pilgrim

2011-01-31, 04:14 PM

So much for all the "Haley's mother is a Celestial" theories.

Prospekt

2011-01-31, 04:18 PM

People will still insist upon it, Pilgrim. (Gawsh, I sound like John Wayne there.) But heck, why not?! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html <-- Look, it's Haley's long lost sister too! *facepalm* A hairstyle is just a hairstyle, people.

Something tells me things will continue to be genre savvy as always, and Elan will save (Not a saving throw, mind you) Ian. Or Ian's gonna die. I'm cool with either at this point.

CarpeGuitarrem

2011-01-31, 04:22 PM

fibonacciseries

2011-01-31, 04:23 PM

As baseless paranoia seems to be something of a recurring theme, here's a wildly paranoid, highly unlikely observation. Mia was shot with a purple arrow. Front and center, in a position of honor and importance on Old Blind Pete's wall is...you guessed it a purple arrow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0614.html)

What strip have you been reading for the last 7 years and 772 strips, if you'd even consider such a trite and cliched space filler as a valid possibility?

I've been reading a strip which has taught me never to rule anything out unless proven wrong (although some people on the forums will keep on believing in their theories even after that point), even including clichés such as coming somewhere trying to find someone, and then being thrown in jail with him. that said, the proposed scenario is ridiculous, and was proven wrong by this very strip--nothing Ian says will be able to convince her that Elan is evil.

Also, innumerable thanks to the Giant for the update speed! Praise him with great praise!
(and yes, I recognize the irony in using that quote about someone known as "The Giant")

Themrys

2011-01-31, 04:26 PM

Of course he's an exception. Halflings are commonly good (except in Dark Sun, admittedly). =) And ambiguous gender appears to be a trait of all elves in the OOtS-verse.

Powers &8^]

So, halflings are as "always good" as drow are "always evil"? This would definitely leave the possibility of Belkar's parents being evil open. :smallbiggrin:

Also, hadn't the elf druid of that other adveturer's group breasts?
(Okay, maybe she's a shape-shifter and wants to look more human...but still)

Juggling Goth

2011-01-31, 04:26 PM

*facepalm* A hairstyle is just a hairstyle, people.

But... but... but... you mean Haley and Lien weren't separated at birth?!?!?!

Also, hadn't the elf druid of that other adveturer's group breasts?
(Okay, maybe she's a shape-shifter and wants to look more human...but still)

Lirian's been the exception. Other than her, V, Inkyrius, their kids, and all the elves infiltrating occupied Azure City have been androgynous.

Lemonus

2011-01-31, 04:30 PM

Wow Ian… Just wow.

rewinn

2011-01-31, 04:30 PM

Awesome writing; we're caring about stick figures !

But I wonder about Elan's line that indicates he knows he annoys Roy a whole lot. It was a good joke but it suggests that Haley's suggestion a few strips back didn't entirely patch up Elan's concerns about his relationship with Roy.

Still: it's pretty good writing when you come to the end and go, "oh, yeah, that's pretty much how it would work out between two real people. unfortunately!"

===
P.S. wanna bet that in the tournementBelkar gets matched with Ian, leaving Haley to make a terrible choice?

Blas_de_Lezo

2011-01-31, 04:30 PM

"Keep my feelings locked up in a tiny box inside my brain" :smallsmile:

LOL! (I think I should open up too... :smallsigh:)

Themrys

2011-01-31, 04:34 PM

fibonacciseries

2011-01-31, 04:36 PM

I don't see any purple there...however, Crystal's sword has a purple handle...is Crystal's family involved in the murder of Haley's mother?

The arrow in the middle with the point on the upper right and the feathers on the lower left is purple--it's just hard to tell at that size, you need to make it bigger in order to see it clearly.

Neopolis

2011-01-31, 04:36 PM

Poor Haley... This probably wasn't the sweet family reunion she was hoping for.

maxon

2011-01-31, 04:42 PM

ah um - I don't think that's going the way she planned.

kojar

2011-01-31, 04:45 PM

Nice comic but why didn`t Haley tell her dad that she knew Elan more than a year and that he was raised by his mother who is completely different from Tarquin in personality?

Gift Jeraff

2011-01-31, 04:46 PM

I really liked this one. I also like how Roy, Elan, and Haley all inherited one parent's hair colour (young Roy) while getting the other parent's hairstyle (or lack thereof, in Roy's case :smalltongue:).

Anyone else thinking Elan will stay to prove himself a hero and fill Roy in on the latest plot developments (plus, I think Elan would be pretty skilled at not killing enemies, especially if he doesn't use his puns*)? I'm also thinking Ian will die to save Elan, somehow.

*Another way to make sure he looks his best in front of Ian!

Themrys

2011-01-31, 04:50 PM

The arrow in the middle with the point on the upper right and the feathers on the lower left is purple--it's just hard to tell at that size, you need to make it bigger in order to see it clearly.

Interesting. Well, the fact that it needed only one arrow to kill Mrs. Starshine implies that this was the work of an expert archer...and Pete isn't trustworthy...the only question that remains: Why didn't Ian suspect Pete?

@kojar: People don't always say the most sensible things in real life. Haley knows all this, she might not even realize that Ian doesn't know it.

glissle

2011-01-31, 04:57 PM

More to the point, you can't combat illogical assumptions with logical demonstrations. Ian would just believe he magically defeated the detect evil effect somehow.

When Elan arrested him, Kubota mentioned that there was a prestige class based around evading that sort of thing. Such a prestige class would be a natural fit for a professional seducer like Elan (remember the bandit queen?).

Regarding the arguments that Haley could testify to Elan's heroism, we've seen plenty of heroism from Belkar. Besides, she's more appreciative of Elan's softer expressions of goodness, casting herself as his protector.

Nice comic but why didn`t Haley tell her dad that she knew Elan more than a year and that he was raised by his mother who is completely different from Tarquin in personality?

Consider, who was the source of her information about Elan's upbringing?

iowaforever

2011-01-31, 04:59 PM

well not so much stupid as paranoid, and given the time between when Mia was killed and now he's had a lot of time to burn it into his mindset

my thoughts are that Mia was killed by Pete or some other assassin that was hired by Bozzok, but the reason that Hayley doesn't share her father's views is that A) she was young at the time and B) she's had a lot more character development than him

RMS Oceanic

2011-01-31, 05:01 PM

Nice comic but why didn`t Haley tell her dad that she knew Elan more than a year and that he was raised by his mother who is completely different from Tarquin in personality?

Ian would just say "That's what he wants you to believe!" I think he's jumped to his conclusion, not unlike Miko, and will be sticking to it for the forseeable future.

I can see another reason why Haley is frustrated at him. She was caught up with running the Azure City resistance, and while this was noble, addressing Xykon was more important. Basically, her talents weren't utilised in the larger picture. With Ian, you have an exagerrated version of where Haley was: He hasn't even got his resistance started properly, and is basically sitting in prison waiting for an opportunity. His talents are going to even greater waste.

Something tells me we're going to see an expanded version of Mia's death, and how this has impacted both Ian and Haley. I can see it's already had rather different effects, but to truly get into Ian's head we'll be exploring it in greater depth.

Blanth

2011-01-31, 05:04 PM

At this point a Detect Evil spell on Elan would really help, but that's not gunna happen is it? :smallfrown:

Depends if he happens to have a lead sheet on him I suppose. :)

Ender Wigin

2011-01-31, 05:06 PM

Wow. Poor Ian; he's just too paranoid for his own good. Looking from his side you can't really blame him, but I hope he can eventually come to trust his daughter.

Actualy, he trusts her, he just thinks hes being tricked by Elan.

Also, Awwwwwwww... :smallfrown:

Mando Knight

2011-01-31, 05:11 PM

===
P.S. wanna bet that in the tournementBelkar gets matched with Ian, leaving Haley to make a terrible choice?

That's an easy choice. Belkar's an Evil jerk who's fated to die soon anyway. Ian, though he has character flaws, would possibly have a change of heart if the Order rescued him in plain view of Tarquin, and is Haley's dad. No contest.

If Roy were stuck with him, however, then there'd be a problem. Haley cares much more about her leaderly meatshield with a +5 Greatsword-With-Properties-Including-Something-That-Hurts-Undead and fairly good aggregate mental scores than she does about Death's Lil' Helper.

However, it's unlikely. Haley's trying to break out "her people," both her relatives as well as Roy and Belkar. If they can leave the antimagic zone and find at least Roy's equipment, then they should be able to get out easily enough even if they somehow break through Haley's Glibness-enhanced Bluff checks.

Chuckthedwarf

2011-01-31, 05:14 PM

Wow!

Seeing Haley's mother downed with an arrow is an interesting touch. No wonder why Haley has proficiency in archery!

Also: Amazing speed on the updates Giant. Much thanks!

Maybe... It was Haley all along!

She was playing with her bow, and accidentally shot her mother! And then got amnesia somehow!

That'd be a pretty surprising twist...

Golden-Esque

2011-01-31, 05:15 PM

This is easily one of the most powerful comics in the entire strip. Excellent writing with even better exposition. Kudos!

Fox Box Socks

2011-01-31, 05:21 PM

Powerful comic. Sad. Emotional.

Still, raise your hand if you honestly didn't see something like this coming? It doesn't detract from the impact of the comic, sure, but I could see Ian being too paranoid to care about what his daughter is trying to say from a mile away.

Themrys

2011-01-31, 05:22 PM

Depends if he happens to have a lead sheet on him I suppose. :)

Having a lead sheet with him would convince everyone he's evil - or at least thinks he's evil enough to get problems if people find out. :smallwink:

immblueversion

2011-01-31, 05:23 PM

I just hope the Giant has decided to take a break in the making and releasing of the comic at this point... I demand to see the next strip by Wednesday, as the pattern seems to have been. Not that I'd get it...

Locnil

2011-01-31, 05:23 PM

No. Totally didn't see this coming.:smallfrown:

And where would Ian get a cleric to cast Detect Evil, anyway? And why would he trust the cleric?

Swordpriest

2011-01-31, 05:31 PM

No. Totally didn't see this coming.:smallfrown:

And where would Ian get a cleric to cast Detect Evil, anyway? And why would he trust the cleric?

Yep, because the cleric wouldn't be a relative, so they would probably detect Elan as evil and say he's good anyway.

Do Ian and Miko have the same prestige class, or something? :smallconfused:

JSSheridan

2011-01-31, 05:35 PM

Thanks Giant!

HappyBlanket

2011-01-31, 06:10 PM

Given the sight of her mother... I'm not sure if Haley's chosen hairstyle strikes me as cute or sad.

Themrys

2011-01-31, 06:12 PM

Given the sight of her mother... I'm not sure if Haley's chosen hairstyle strikes me as cute or sad.

Even that strand of hair...:smalleek:

HalfTangible

2011-01-31, 06:16 PM

Do Ian and Miko have the same prestige class, or something? :smallconfused:

Of course not. Lawful Dumbass requires you be 'Lawful'

Swordpriest

2011-01-31, 06:21 PM

Of course not. Lawful Dumbass requires you be 'Lawful'

Implying, I take it, that now we're being treated to a view of Chaotic Dumbass? :smallwink:

Jigsaw Forte

2011-01-31, 06:25 PM

Interesting. Well, the fact that it needed only one arrow to kill Mrs. Starshine implies that this was the work of an expert archer...and Pete isn't trustworthy...the only question that remains: Why didn't Ian suspect Pete?

Perhaps Pete was already blinded at the time?

Worth note, the Purple Arrow is only one of many on the wall -- it's reasonable to assume that whoever shot Mia is/was an expert or at least had a variety of arrows on hand, but not necessarily that Pete was the guild's only sniper who had access to purple arrows, among other things.

The MunchKING

2011-01-31, 06:26 PM

More to the point, you can't combat illogical assumptions with logical demonstrations. Ian would just believe he magically defeated the detect evil effect somehow.

Well there IS an aristocrat freindly PrC that lets you do that.

Alternatly he could just be a dupe still.

Military Man

2011-01-31, 06:29 PM

An excellent character driven piece :smallcool:

It sort of puts a spot light over Haley's life then/now, we see that her mom died a pointless, unnecessary death, for nothing, (much like Piggy's death if you've ever read Lord of the Flies) with her dieing last words being essentially "don't stoop to their level" And we see what came from that both Ian and Haley tried to escape the Greysky back hole, Ian by trying to for a resistance against an Dictatorship, why Haley joined an adventuring party. Now we see that Ian's desire to do try and succeed at something has fallen flat, all this time of hiding things and keeping secret has driving to almost delusional paranoia.

Cerlis

2011-01-31, 06:30 PM

Even that strand of hair...:smalleek:

hmm, wonder if the fact that Elan is so good and positive and sees the best in people reminds her of her mother.

Perhaps if Elan is capable of making Haley just like Mia.

Blaznak

2011-01-31, 06:31 PM

Loved the pun in the title. But seriously, this is a really deep comic. Rich gets us to care more about stick figures than could easily be believed. Some really outstanding writing. Loved Elan's quips in the background by the way. ...and the appearance of a certain puppet...

fibonacciseries

2011-01-31, 06:36 PM

Worth note, the Purple Arrow is only one of many on the wall -- it's reasonable to assume that whoever shot Mia is/was an expert or at least had a variety of arrows on hand, but not necessarily that Pete was the guild's only sniper who had access to purple arrows, among other things.

I did say when I first pointed it out that it was very paranoid and highly unlikely--so we're going to just jump straight to the conclusion that it was him, these being the forums

Elfin

2011-01-31, 06:38 PM

Wow; you're really spoiling us with the update speed.
And a double one, too!

Aaron

2011-01-31, 06:46 PM

wow. I think Haley's dad is being a litttttttle bit too paranoid. :smallwink: An interesting turn, i didn't see it coming.

MoonCat

2011-01-31, 06:49 PM

There goes the celestial theory...

Like, not for real, but it is nice when it's proved, even if no one believes it.

Also, :smallfrown: http://i.imgur.com/wPeaW.png
This really has been a lightning speed series of plot Giant. It's so scary to see the Haley who vanished the from our hearing the second she got her aphasia, to return in her dad. And the sads in this comic are much sadder than Roy's death for me.

Belsirk

2011-01-31, 06:53 PM

Too many "HAHA" and two "Awww"
good comic!

goldgecko4

2011-01-31, 06:55 PM

Am I supposed to hate Ian so much? He makes a career of lying, cheating and stealing from people, and the HE feels he can't trust anyone. Not to mention, his martyr complex allows him to believe everyone is evil but him and his kin. Ian Starshine is the worst kind of hypocrite: one who won't even acknowledge his own hypocrisy.

Zeta Kai

2011-01-31, 07:01 PM

Frankly, it could have gone like this
:haley::Father, I completely and utterly disagree with from the simple fact that I've spent a lot time with Elan. I knew him long before he knew his father (whom I suspected was evil long before Elan did) and you are condemning him due to the sins of his father. To be blunt, you are being wholly unfair in your judgement of him. I'm not going to force you to come, I expect you to be the adult here and realize your mistakes so you can learn from them.

Or how someone outside looking in would think :smalltongue:

Yeah, a simple recap of the past couple of years of adventuring should have been sufficient to convince any rational mind that Elan was not some mole put in the party by his father. The group was formed ~2 years ago on another continent, motivated by unrelated goal & random happenstance. Tarquin had less than nothing to do with Elan's meeting of Haley, & it's only a dramatic coincidence that their fathers' lives were also intertwined.

Knaight

2011-01-31, 07:05 PM

Zea mays

2011-01-31, 07:06 PM

valce

2011-01-31, 07:10 PM

HalfTangible

2011-01-31, 07:13 PM

This strip made me aaaawwwww :smallfrown:

And yet, and yet, the game mechanics I have learned from reading this comic and forum lead that nagging little corner of my mind to ask, if she was merely felled by an arrow, why didn't Ian have Mia raised?

If you've read SoD, you know why Ian could never have gotten that much money without the thieve's guild killing them.

Who149

2011-01-31, 07:21 PM

This strip made me aaaawwwww :smallfrown:

And yet, and yet, the game mechanics I have learned from reading this comic and forum lead that nagging little corner of my mind to ask, if she was merely felled by an arrow, why didn't Ian have Mia raised?

Probably because A) it would make death too cheap in the comic and remove all meaning left out of it. B) There arn't any clerics in the town nor do they have the right materials on hand.... or C) she really was a celestial. Not saying it wasn't a good question though. thats just most likely the answer (a and b anyway).

Also. Awesome Comic Giant ^^

Zea mays

2011-01-31, 07:21 PM

I have read SoD. :smallconfused:

Perhaps you meant the other prequel book?

It still doesn't make sense to me, since Haley expected the thieves' guild to resurrect many of it's members after Belkar's rampage.

Darth V.

2011-01-31, 07:23 PM

Huh, am I he only one who's starting to think that, rather than focusing exclusively on Tarquin's party, or The Order of the Scribble, or the Linear guild, the next prequel book might focus on the OOTS's parents? Just to look at the plots you'd get:
Any adventuring Eugene did previously
The Backstory for Ian and Haley's mom
Tarquin's takeover of the western continent and possibly the Linear Guild's origin story
Something to do with V's parents (who were rangers if I remember correctly) maybe involving Team Peregrine Commander? no? Maybe
Maybe finally a more fleshed out biography of Belkar (here's my reasoning, The Giant said in the intro to Origin of PCs that he didn't give Belkar a backstory because giving anything that satisfactorily explained his sociopathy would make him seem more tragic and less funny, thus ruining the character but if Belkar dies at the end of this arc, that may seem like less of an issue)
With all the tidbits we've been getting about Ian and Tarquin lately it seems almost certain that their past will be fleshed out somewhere.

Lurkmoar

2011-01-31, 07:24 PM

Wow, Ian takes stubbornness to a whole new level.

SmartAlec

2011-01-31, 07:32 PM

I wonder if Ian knows Nale exists, and if they ever cross paths, that he'll assume Nale is Elan.

Tobimaro

2011-01-31, 07:49 PM

Man, does anyone in this comic not have daddy issues.

Well, we've never seen Belkar's father. :smallbiggrin:

Well, at least Roy is being honest about his feeling toward Elan. I'm kinda sorry to see that Haley and her father are both being stubborn, but they both feel that they are right and will not be backing down any time soon.

Swordpriest

2011-01-31, 07:59 PM

I wonder if Ian knows Nale exists, and if they ever cross paths, that he'll assume Nale is Elan.

If they cross paths, I'm not sure it will turn out very well for the old gentleman.

Sijo

2011-01-31, 08:05 PM

Ok, now THIS is more like it.

An intelligent, well written, touching and FUNNY strip like I have not seen in OOTS since the last "book" ended. I'm glad the long-awaited meeting between Haley and her father turned out so good (the last few strips were too talky and didn't exactly encourage me). And it was extra-long, too. Thanks, Giant. :smallsmile:

Lurkmoar

2011-01-31, 08:05 PM

Well, we've never seen Belkar's father. :smallbiggrin:

Well, at least Roy is being honest about his feeling toward Elan. I'm kinda sorry to see that Haley and her father are both being stubborn, but they both feel that they are right and will not be backing down any time soon.

You know, I really wouldn't be surprised if Belkar's dad is the nicest guy in his halfling village. I also wouldn't be surprised if he was a brutal warlord either.

My sympathies to both Ian and Haley... sucks that the generational gap is fueled by paranoia as well.

Sengoku

2011-01-31, 08:23 PM

Haley's mom looks almost Adult Haley's twin sister.

I guess that it's true that to see how a woman will become you have too look at her mother :smallwink:

The arrow who killed Haley's mom looks like a sniper's shot (very precise in the heart), if the Giant's purpose was to emphasize that, ofc.

immblueversion

2011-01-31, 08:24 PM

I wonder if Ian knows Nale exists, and if they ever cross paths, that he'll assume Nale is Elan.

No, he's aware. He called Elan Tarquin's other son.

Acero

2011-01-31, 08:26 PM

Now I'm wondering, did haley's mom have a PC class? Most don't go down from one arrow in the regular DnD universe

MoonCat

2011-01-31, 08:31 PM

Jeesh, I turn around for one day of school and I come back to a ground breaking double strip, piles of debunked theories, new threories, and a thread for each of them? I'm gluing myself to the computer until the end of this arc, Giant!

Cerlis

2011-01-31, 08:34 PM

Now I'm wondering, did haley's mom have a PC class? Most don't go down from one arrow in the regular DnD universe

respectfully:

1)-The rules exist only for the purpose of jokes. Treat this as a normal story when it comes to serious stuff is the best way to interpret anything

2)-Elan was 10th lvl ish when Nale stabbed him in the liver and took him to minus 7 and bleeding.

Sengoku

2011-01-31, 08:38 PM

Awesome writing; we're caring about stick figures !

Still: it's pretty good writing when you come to the end and go, "oh, yeah, that's pretty much how it would work out between two real people. unfortunately!"

Yup, this arc's characters and drama are even more than SoD, kudos to the Giant.

I look forward to see what happens next.

hobbitkniver

2011-01-31, 09:12 PM

Oots is just so full of angsty children now. All three humans disappointed there parents. Coincidence? Absolutely. We still have yet to see the non-humans parents. Maybe they don't visit their parents after they move out.

Boogastreehouse

2011-01-31, 09:49 PM

After dealing with her paranoid, distrustful father, Haley is going to be the one who has a insightful breakthrough when they're struggling to gain the trust of the paranoid, distrustful Girard.

Also, I think its pretty clear at this point that one of the themes of this whole comic is learning to be an adult, overthrowing the shackles of your own upbringing, and growing out of your parents' expectations...

Hmmm... ... Actually, I wonder how this theme will apply to Monster-San? He is a child growing up, after all.

Or for that matter, how will it apply to the Snarl, which could be said to be the child of the gods?

Maybe I'm thinking too much...

Scutilla

2011-01-31, 10:02 PM

I'm now insanely curious about the backstory between Mia (is that her name?) and Ian.

Hmm, I wonder if V also has Daddy issues, or in V's case ambiguously gendered parent issues.
Nah, (s)he'll have mentor issues. Still waiting for V's and Durkon's turn to get their backstories fleshed out (I have no expectations of Belkar).

So now we have officially seen someone so lawful that it caused problems for those around them(Miko), so good it caused problems(Celia), so evil its a problem for teammates(Belkar) and now we round it off with someone too chaotic in Ian.
Now we just need the "must keep Good and Evil balanced" True Neutral druid. On second thought, such a character would probably *help* the Order, considering what their nemesis is planning on doing...

They where outside in the arena at the time. Which should be outside the No Magic Zone.
What kind of slaver puts magic wards on his jails but not on his gladiatorial arena? You'd think that someone as genre-savvy as Tarquin would realize that it's just asking for a climatic escape scene during the arena games.

Nice comic but why didn`t Haley tell her dad that she knew Elan more than a year and that he was raised by his mother who is completely different from Tarquin in personality?
Because conflict makes good drama, and clear communication eliminates conflict. Alternatively, Ian is paranoid enough that it wouldn't help.

SPoD

2011-01-31, 10:17 PM

Anguish

2011-01-31, 10:21 PM

For a couple strips before this, there were wacky miscommunication hijinks -- and I agree with you; I always find those more frustrating than funny. But by the end of this strip there's no miscommunication. Haley and Ian both understand exactly what the other one is telling them, and they each think the other is wrong.

Oh yes, there is classic miscommunication. In fact, it's gender-stereotypical miscommunication. Haley is - understandably - telling her father all about this wonderful love she's found and how important it is to her. It's all about what she feels. Very stereotypically feminine mind-set. That isn't even remotely what Ian needs to hear. He needs to know what she knows.

Haley has a couple years of evidence that Elan isn't working with his father. She has strong experiential evidence that Elan never even met the man until the events of the last few weeks. She knows how Tarquin sees his son, she knows how Elan views his father. She knows a long laundry lists of deeds Elan has undertaken in the name of Good. She's got an overwhelming set of experiences with Elan that are self-consistent and support the idea that Elan not only isn't working with his father but can't be.

The miscommunication is that she takes the time to express what's important to her and that isn't what's important to Ian. Which is the truly sad part of this strip.

Swordpriest

2011-01-31, 10:52 PM

Yes, lousy communication on Haley's part played a big role in this fiasco, too. With Ian's paranoia and egotism, it's truly hopeless.

Thanatosia

2011-01-31, 10:58 PM

I apologize if this has been noticed already, but: The gold necklace Ian was seen wearing here, here, and even all the way back here was not on his neck in the flashback. It was on Mia's.
oooo, good catch on the gold neck detail, but I dont see it on anyone in the most recent flashback.

Who is Mia? Halley's Mom?

StrykerX

2011-01-31, 11:29 PM

It's not really a story obstacle. They can save the world without Haley's father along for the ride.

Considering the way things normally go for the Order, Ian is safer where he's at...

Nightfall

2011-01-31, 11:43 PM

On the plus side, now Haley doesn't have to spend the gold she collected to ransom her dad. :smallbiggrin:

Herald Alberich

2011-01-31, 11:51 PM

oooo, good catch on the gold neck detail, but I dont see it on anyone in the most recent flashback.

Who is Mia? Halley's Mom?

Yes. And she is wearing the necklace, but you have to look close. It's not nearly as shiny because of the dark and the rain. Good find.

MoonCat

2011-01-31, 11:55 PM

I apologize if this has been noticed already, but: The gold necklace Ian was seen wearing here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html), and even all the way back here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html) was not on his neck in the flashback. It was on Mia's.

Oooh, that is going to HAVE to be an important thing later, how closely do you look every time? I didn't see a thing even when I leaned in close.

blazingshadow

2011-01-31, 11:57 PM

On the plus side, now Haley doesn't have to spend the gold she collected to ransom her dad.she wasn't going to either way.

i do believe that if Haley showed all the gold she collected to Ian, he would definately follow his daughter out of jail.

immblueversion

2011-02-01, 12:02 AM

she wasn't going to either way.

i do believe that if Haley showed all the gold she collected to Ian, he would definately follow his daughter out of jail.

However, Ian did say he intended to use his skills for something better than stealing. To him, taking down an evil tyrant seems to be more important than gold. I do find that commendable, but seeing him so convinced that he's right about Elan when we know he's wrong, as understandable as his line of thinking is, really does make me want to punch him in the face.

Psyren

2011-02-01, 12:06 AM

I apologize if this has been noticed already, but: The gold necklace Ian was seen wearing here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html), and even all the way back here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html) was not on his neck in the flashback. It was on Mia's.

Are you pointing out a correction, or just making an observation? Because it would make sense that he took his dying wife's necklace as a keepsake, I think...

BriarHobbit

2011-02-01, 12:14 AM

Wow, that was wonderful writing. The dialogue between Hailey and her Dad was great.

blazingshadow

2011-02-01, 12:28 AM

However, Ian did say he intended to use his skills for something better than stealing. To him, taking down an evil tyrant seems to be more important than gold. I do find that commendable, but seeing him so convinced that he's right about Elan when we know he's wrong, as understandable as his line of thinking is, really does make me want to punch him in the face.that does not stop him from slipping away from the cause when he sees all the bounty his daughter has. even Haley said she slips sometimes

Felixc-91

2011-02-01, 01:27 AM

wow, Giant's on a role, these last few comics have been very good. and this one follows in the same vein! i like how he as increased the amount of really laugh worthy jokes per comic. i found Roy's comment to Geoff and Elan's response both hilarious and very enlightening. it shows that Elan knows how much his borderline insanity/extreame stupidity hurts Roy.

Ghostwheel

2011-02-01, 01:50 AM

I love Haley's explanation for why she loves Elan.... it always kind of felt at least a little vapid based on his physical attractiveness/CHA score. But Elan is essentially distilled pure 'good guy' under all that dumbness, and it makes sense that someone with Haley's upbringing could find that very comforting to be around.

Best post on this subject that I have read. Have a cookie. :smallbiggrin:

Felixc-91

2011-02-01, 02:30 AM

Oh yes, there is classic miscommunication. In fact, it's gender-stereotypical miscommunication. Haley is - understandably - telling her father all about this wonderful love she's found and how important it is to her. It's all about what she feels. Very stereotypically feminine mind-set. That isn't even remotely what Ian needs to hear. He needs to know what she knows.

Haley has a couple years of evidence that Elan isn't working with his father. She has strong experiential evidence that Elan never even met the man until the events of the last few weeks. She knows how Tarquin sees his son, she knows how Elan views his father. She knows a long laundry lists of deeds Elan has undertaken in the name of Good. She's got an overwhelming set of experiences with Elan that are self-consistent and support the idea that Elan not only isn't working with his father but can't be.

The miscommunication is that she takes the time to express what's important to her and that isn't what's important to Ian. Which is the truly sad part of this strip.

Yes, lousy communication on Haley's part played a big role in this fiasco, too. With Ian's paranoia and egotism, it's truly hopeless.... your both very right and somewhat frustrating... this whole fiasco is both of their faults... and in such a way that you can't really get angry at either of them. its completely reasonable to respond to Tarquin with that level of paranoia, and predicting how someone is going to respond and the perfect counter every time is for "Mary Sue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue)"s. i hold this up as an example of excellent writing... which has frustrated the people trying to predict the course of this comic for years.

Gamgee

2011-02-01, 02:40 AM

Slow plot is slow. I feel like V here, where are these gates? A mix of V and MITD. I keep hearing about these gates, and a quest to save the world. Or did we decide to just drop it because the GM was being too hard with the boss fights or something?

Killer Angel

2011-02-01, 02:49 AM

Slow plot is slow.

We're just relaxing a little before the next rush... :smallwink:

Shoelessgdowar

2011-02-01, 02:53 AM

Ian is a fool, Geoff isn't family anymore then Elan is... And trust family means he should trust Haley's feelings and knowledge.

Belkar's family is kind, sweet, jolly, and probably run a wonderful restaurant, which is why Belkar is a Gourmet Chef... he was raised to go into the family business, but fled and became a Ranger/Barbarian...

And if Ian dies, he possibly could meet Eugene... Eugene is waiting in a Limbo that judgement is passed, so it means he could end up in a different Heaven... if Ian dies, he too could have unfinished business and have to wait until Haley and Elan overthrow Tarquin, so in the idiot fathers can sit in limbo together and grumble at one another.

I think Lirian is either Half-Elf (Like Pompei), or she is a different type of Elf (I think V is supposed to be high Elf, but Lirian could be Wood Elf and therefore have a defined sexuality where High Elves might not)

Mia couldn't be revived because she didn't want to be... she figured she'd make a better impact on her idiot husband and her sweet brilliant daughter by remaining dead then by coming back... and the target has to be willing to be raised/resurrected for the spell to work.

Durkon's parents are probably deceased... and most likely died to trees.

And as for why have the Anti-Magic Field on the Prison but not the Arena... that is easy... in the prison they can just lock up magic users without fear, but in the arena you want excitement, and a Sorceror or Evil Cleric tossing around spells is more fun then two wusses fighting ineffectually with weapons, especially when you can have much more security watching a handful of prisoners in the Arena and using weapons/spells on them if they try to escape, then it is to have to keep track of dozens of spellcasters from hundreds of prisoners in the jail.

MythicFox

2011-02-01, 03:30 AM

As it stands now, people are condemning Ian for not having information Haley hasn't shared with him yet.

As far as Ian's concerned, though, any information Haley has is suspect because of her proximity to Elan. He's pretty up-front with the notion that everything that Haley knows about the situation is a setup of Tarquin's.

That said, though, a discussion with Roy might help Ian realize what's going on and get over it...

...although my instincts are telling me it'll be something that Belkar says that finally tips Ian off to the notion that Elan's not some spy of Tarquin's.

Also (while I'm in 'put things in spoiler box to not give something away' mode), I suspect Haley's mother might have been killed in part because of someone tricking information or some such out of her when she was a little girl, and as a result Ian just can't bring himself to trust Haley's ability to read people.

Atcote

2011-02-01, 04:56 AM

Someone needs a bit of Detect Evil... And a hug...
Detect Evil first though, Elan. Hugs turn shivie otherwise.

Agi Hammerthief

2011-02-01, 05:15 AM

so...
Ian's alignment is Chaotic Stupid?
or just Paranoid Beyond Good?

fibonacciseries

2011-02-01, 05:31 AM

I apologize if this has been noticed already, but: The gold necklace Ian was seen wearing here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html), and even all the way back here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html) was not on his neck in the flashback. It was on Mia's.

Excellent spotting, I didn't notice that until you mentioned it.
That's definitely going to be significant. I don't know how, but it will. Maybe, if Ian dies, as many people are theorizing, than Haley will wear it?

Themrys

2011-02-01, 05:57 AM

Excellent spotting, I didn't notice that until you mentioned it.
That's definitely going to be significant. I don't know how, but it will. Maybe, if Ian dies, as many people are theorizing, than Haley will wear it?

First they have to get it back from whoever has it. Ian doesn't wear it now, I don't think he risked to take it to prison.

Onyavar

2011-02-01, 06:37 AM

Ha!
This ends as I expected all along since they entered the cell. Nothing gets resolved in EoB. The two fathers - the two hard-heads - will continue to think that everything revolves around them, and also continue their schemes and battles.

That was basically my opinion.

But if the OotS is going to change something, then the laws of story-telling will have the OotS influence both of the fathers. Exposing Geoff to be the traitor, thus bringing doubts about his view to Ian, that's obvious.
Now I'm not sure what's going to happen with Tarquin. The order still wants information from him, so they will return to him. But what will bring doubt to Tarquin???

Werbaer

2011-02-01, 06:54 AM

"I'd bet every penny i have ..."

Now, how many would that be, down there in the prison?

Deatheater

2011-02-01, 07:01 AM

So, in Ian's mind, it is likely that his enemy had a son go off and join his daughter's party in order to stop Ian and that Tarquin wouldn't have just used his knowledge of Ian to have Ian forced into repeated gladitorial combat? Makes perfect sense.

Story obstacles based on poor communication skills always frustrate me.

I agree this is primarily a communication problem--because Haley has not clearly communicated HOW she met Elan, nor had Ian asked any critical questions to see what makes sense and what doesn't.

That said, in this narrative instance, it doesn't bother me as much as it would, because this communication problem is in character for both Haley and Ian. Roy, otoh, would cut to the root of the matter with acidic sarcasm:

"Yeah dad, it was all part of a cunning plan working with his father he never knew and never met, to undermine someone (Ian) he never heard of. Sure, makes perfect sense."

Which wouldn't guarantee Ian would be convinced, but would make it clearer how dense he is on his own. As it is, Haley's personal growth arguments, instead of hard logic, make the matter of Ian denseness less clear.

But again it's perfectly realistic and in character given what we know of Haley and Ian.

Deatheater

2011-02-01, 07:05 AM

Interesting... Haley's Resistance outfit looks almost identical to her mom's.

Dunno that it means anything. Anyone wearing a stealthy black ensemble for stealthy reasons is going to look pretty much the same in a stick comic.

TheBlackShadow

2011-02-01, 08:02 AM

First Impression

:roy: If you move, I will crush you the way that every word out of Elan's mouth crushes my spirit.

:elan: Yikes, no need to get THAT rough.

:smallbiggrin:

Second Impression

:smallfrown:

Swordpriest

2011-02-01, 09:41 AM

Yes, I suppose it's kind of tragic that Haley isn't much better at communicating her meaning than she was when she had aphasia, either. :smallfrown: In a way, it's almost like she still can't talk, because she's incapable, seemingly, of infusing what she's saying with logical meaning. Heck, by her own admission, she was recently out-logic'ed by Elan! :smallbiggrin:

Paseo H

2011-02-01, 09:42 AM

Dad fails for letting paranoia go to his head, and for showing signs of distrusting Elan simply because that is apparently what fathers are hardwired to do (according to a recent article on Cracked).

Haley fails because she speaks of how Elan "makes her feel" rather than loving Elan simply for Elan, and because if a man said of his gf "Sure she's a bit dumb at times...most of the time" those would be considered fighting words by most of society. Even her proviso that he's still a better person than she is doesn't make up for it.

The Pilgrim

2011-02-01, 10:17 AM

Taking into account that Tanquin ALREADY has Ian under custody, and that if he knew who Ian is and what he is there for, he should have already executed him...

... isn't a bit preposterous to think that Tarquin planted Elan on Haley's party to get to Ian?

I mean, Tarquin ALREADY has Ian.

deathsli'helper

2011-02-01, 11:00 AM

I think Ian just realy blew it.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2011-02-01, 11:12 AM

Ooooooosnap.

Ohsnap.

I really liked Haley's writing in this one. It felt real, much more like what someone would really say than usual!

shaxberd

2011-02-01, 11:16 AM

Interesting. Seems like Elan reminds Haley of her father. Doesn't Ian seem more obsessed with the romantic notion of how things should go for a daring rogue turned freedom fighter than actually accomplishing anything? Not to mention obsessed with the trope that the evil dictator's son must be seducing his daughter to get at him because that's how these things work? Or that is to say, how it always happens in the stories? Reminds me of Elan.

I look forward to watching her jaw drop when Roy or Belkar points out how similar Ian is to Elan. Thoughts?

Vectner

2011-02-01, 11:27 AM

That is so sweet they way Haley described her love for Elan. I almost cried. Her father is a fool, and will die a fool, I'm glad Haley can recognize that.

Themrys

2011-02-01, 11:35 AM

I really want to know why Ian trusted Haley's mother. I mean, she wasn't family before they married, so...

Mordaenor

2011-02-01, 11:35 AM

I'm seeing a replay of the relationship between Roy and Xykon.

Roy Ian "I am Roy Greenhilt Ian Starshine, your arch nemesis."

Xykon Tarquin "Ummm... who?"

the_tick_rules

2011-02-01, 11:40 AM

Little too much drama.

Swordpriest

2011-02-01, 11:47 AM

On reading the observations here, I think both Haley and Ian bungled this big-time.

On Haley's side, because she apparently can't communicate useful information to save her life. Like I said, she might as well still have aphasia.

On Ian's side, partly because he can't realize this about her, and partly because he's so ego-frickin-centric that he figures that everything that happens is focused on him (although paranoia is a highly egocentric affliction, anyway).

In short, it takes two to tango, and it looks like they both know the steps very well. :smallwink:

Grey Knight

2011-02-01, 12:28 PM

Y'know, I don't think Elan's oracle about him having a "happy ending" necessarily precludes him turning evil... he might enjoy it if he gives it a chance!

fibonacciseries

2011-02-01, 12:34 PM

First they have to get it back from whoever has it. Ian doesn't wear it now, I don't think he risked to take it to prison.

No, he probably left it with...Ivy. The more I think about it, the less I trust her (and Geoff). And the fact that she has it may well account for its significance--they get away, but Ian/Haley insists on going back for it.

However, a more immediate problem of a similar nature is Roy's armor and sword. I wonder where they're keeping those? After all, a meat shield without weapons or armor isn't particularly useful in a real fight--his awesomeness in hitting Belkar with the wooden sword and punching out Geoff notwithstanding, Roy would be in trouble if he had to face the guards while wearing nothing but a loincloth.

Herald Alberich

2011-02-01, 12:54 PM

However, a more immediate problem of a similar nature is Roy's armor and sword. I wonder where they're keeping those? After all, a meat shield without weapons or armor isn't particularly useful in a real fight--his awesomeness in hitting Belkar with the wooden sword and punching out Geoff notwithstanding, Roy would be in trouble if he had to face the guards while wearing nothing but a loincloth.

Belkar's weapons and magic items, too. Durkon grabbed Haley's bow and knife, and presumably gave them both back (we know Haley has her bow). But for Roy and Belkar's gear, a raid on the armory will have to accompany the jailbreak.

Faramir

2011-02-01, 01:19 PM

Yeah, a simple recap of the past couple of years of adventuring should have been sufficient to convince any rational mind that Elan was not some mole put in the party by his father. The group was formed ~2 years ago on another continent, motivated by unrelated goal & random happenstance. Tarquin had less than nothing to do with Elan's meeting of Haley, & it's only a dramatic coincidence that their fathers' lives were also intertwined.

No dad, you don't understand. Elan is working with us to defeat an evil lich who's out to conquer the world!

Ah, so until you got here he was helping take down potential rivals for Tarquin.

No, no, it was Roy who wanted to defeat Xykon.

Hmm, I'll bet that as soon as he met Roy and found out about Xykon Elan helped put together an adventuring party to take out this Xykon, didn't he?

Yes, but, he didn't even know about Tarquin until we got here!

How do you know that?

He told me so himself!

Uh huh.

Well, I don't like to say this, but Elan really isn't smart enough to carry out a plot like this. Why in the time I've know him <give any one of hundreds of examples>.

Oh Kitten, no one could possibly be that stupid. Don't you realize it must be an act?

Morty

2011-02-01, 01:43 PM

No dad, you don't understand. Elan is working with us to defeat an evil lich who's out to conquer the world!

Ah, so until you got here he was helping take down potential rivals for Tarquin.

No, no, it was Roy who wanted to defeat Xykon.

Hmm, I'll bet that as soon as he met Roy and found out about Xykon Elan helped put together an adventuring party to take out this Xykon, didn't he?

Yes, but, he didn't even know about Tarquin until we got here!

How do you know that?

He told me so himself!

Uh huh.

Well, I don't like to say this, but Elan really isn't smart enough to carry out a plot like this. Why in the time I've know him <give any one of hundreds of examples>.

Oh Kitten, no one could possibly be that stupid. Don't you realize it must be an act?

Yeah, pretty much. It's pretty clear to me that Ian would have brushed off all arguments Haley might have made as a part of Tarquin and Elan's plan.
Come to think about it, a lot of problems and disasters in this comic stem from thick-headed egotism. But maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Johkmil

2011-02-01, 01:45 PM

Despite what some would call "slow plot*," this arc has been my definite favorite (yet) and every time I think that it can't become better, Rich surprises me once more.

The character interactions in this strip were a fantastic read. Some forum-goers have criticized Haley for mis-communicating with Ian, as she tells him why Elan is important to her and not empirically proving how Elan can not possibly have been a traitor.

(Something she can not do, how could she in any way convince Ian that Elan has never seen his dad before? Elan could be a long-term spy, planted to spy on her in the OotS even before it was formed. His paranoia would have no trouble rationalizing that claim. And, as Faramir has pointed out: how could Elan's stupidity not be an act? No-one is that dense. And I even like Elan.)

Anyway, this reaction to her father's accusations are the reason this entire argument works. The alternative would be to go full Mary Sue with complete precognition of which answer is the correct one. And never, ever go full Mary Sue.

*A claim I disagree with, as it seems to resolve not only one, but two, of the strip's longest-running loose threads: the father-issues of Elan and the imprisoned father of Haley. This is also indisputably going to end with a whole lot of character development done.**

**Sacrificing main plot progression for character development, side stories, fleshing out the world or simply for "fluff" has never been a problem for me. (A useful trait in many situations; I've played 400+ hours of Oblivion, with six different characters, and never even gotten half-way on the main quest. (Why, yes, I do enjoy the 'Wheel of Time' series))

grimbold

2011-02-01, 02:40 PM

finally a look at haleys mom

MoonCat

2011-02-01, 02:42 PM

Is her hairtie also red? And I'm just thinking, what color was her hair, it seems blonde, but the rain is making my color viewers slightly screwy.

Azukar

2011-02-01, 02:50 PM

Family reunions always bring a smile to everyone's faces :smallsmile:

HappyBlanket

2011-02-01, 03:17 PM

Is her hairtie also red? And I'm just thinking, what color was her hair, it seems blonde, but the rain is making my color viewers slightly screwy.

Huh... Now that you mention it, it looks much darker than little Haley's. I'm guessing it's closer to brown than red or blonde.

MoonCat

2011-02-01, 03:35 PM

Huh... Now that you mention it, it looks much darker than little Haley's. I'm guessing it's closer to brown than red or blonde.

Since it's making everyone's hair look duller and darker, I think it's dark blonde.

calar

2011-02-01, 04:40 PM

Oy, please tell me the title isn't a play on Haley's comet. :smallsigh:

Shoelessgdowar

2011-02-01, 04:48 PM

No, he probably left it with...Ivy. The more I think about it, the less I trust her (and Geoff). And the fact that she has it may well account for its significance--they get away, but Ian/Haley insists on going back for it.

However, a more immediate problem of a similar nature is Roy's armor and sword. I wonder where they're keeping those? After all, a meat shield without weapons or armor isn't particularly useful in a real fight--his awesomeness in hitting Belkar with the wooden sword and punching out Geoff notwithstanding, Roy would be in trouble if he had to face the guards while wearing nothing but a loincloth.

Oh... I know... Roy can use Elan's invisibility trick... that will get them past the guards.

Swordpriest

2011-02-01, 05:15 PM

Oy, please tell me the title isn't a play on Haley's comet. :smallsigh:

Gadzooks, is that possible? :smalleek:

MoonCat

2011-02-01, 05:20 PM

Her whole character is. STARshine, red 'tail', and the 'Haley' itself.

Knaight

2011-02-01, 08:31 PM

What kind of slaver puts magic wards on his jails but not on his gladiatorial arena? You'd think that someone as genre-savvy as Tarquin would realize that it's just asking for a climatic escape scene during the arena games.

Someone as genre-savvy as Tarquin realizes that any escape like that is going to be as much of a crowd pleaser as the gladiatorial games. Then he can catch them again later, and have them executed in a public way.

tiriricasmk

2011-02-01, 08:52 PM

poor ian and poor haley :smallfrown:

by the way,does anyone have any idea about ian's lvl?
i bet he would make a fine addition to the order

MoonCat

2011-02-01, 09:00 PM

poor ian and poor haley :smallfrown:

by the way,does anyone have any idea about ian's lvl?
i bet he would make a fine addition to the order

Who'd we have to get rid of? Haley? Coming soon, the thread:

Why is Haley Even Around?

I, for one, wouldn't want a crazy-paranoid beta-Haley in the Order. Too likely he'd be fighting with the Evil-Elan who replaced his son. :smallamused:

Gnoman

2011-02-01, 09:03 PM

Someone as genre-savvy as Tarquin realizes that any escape like that is going to be as much of a crowd pleaser as the gladiatorial games. Then he can catch them again later, and have them executed in a public way.

Which would be even more of an encouragement to toe the line. After all, if you break the law they will find you.

immblueversion

2011-02-01, 10:41 PM

Right now, since there doesn't seem to be any way of predicting what will happen next, I'm counting on the theory of Geoff's betrayal to force Ian to at least begin to try to learn to maybe begin to trust Elan just a little bit.

Also, maybe it will dawn on Haley that someone is keeping her father in prison on Bozzok's behalf. I mean, she knows that someone led him to be imprisoned (though she scoffed at that when Bozzok told her), and she knows that his attempts at breaking out have failed despite being skilled at escaping from things, and she'll piece them together. How she'd act on it, if at all, is beyond me and doesn't seem currently relevant...

Forgive me, I just want to see closure between them as soon as possible.

Schaffer1979

2011-02-01, 10:46 PM

Her whole character is. STARshine, red 'tail', and the 'Haley' itself.

If we were inclined to epiletic trees, that would be more support for the celestial or half celestial implications as those would all be associated with celestial bodies.

Nimrod's Son

2011-02-01, 11:45 PM

Her whole character is. STARshine, red 'tail', and the 'Haley' itself.
Careful, you've already got at least one poster thinking this is established fact, and it's far from it. The name of the comet is Halley's comet, and it is pronounced to rhyme with "valley" just as often if not more often that it is pronounced to rhyme with "Bailey". Haley is a regular, real-world girls' name... and you're making some pretty tenuous connections with the other stuff. Rich has never said or even hinted that her name is a reference to the comet, and I'm quite sure that if he were making a deliberate reference, he'd have been a lot more blatant about it. Far too many people on this forum see a few mild coincidences and then assume that Rich has definitely done it on purpose, but on every occasion when the author has bothered to step in and comment himself, it's to deny it and tell people to stop looking for stuff that isn't there. The references he makes on purpose don't need author clarification, because they're obvious to most people from the start.

Themrys

2011-02-02, 08:58 AM

Maybe Ian knows what is going on (that Geoff is responsible for the failure of all those escapes) and only pretends he is going to stay in prison, so Haley will tell it to Geoff, and when Geoff has found some excuse to stay in prison Ian sneaks out and meets with the OotS. :smallbiggrin:

LuPuWei

2011-02-02, 02:21 PM

Careful, you've already got at least one poster thinking this is established fact, and it's far from it. The name of the comet is Halley's comet, and it is pronounced to rhyme with "valley" just as often if not more often that it is pronounced to rhyme with "Bailey". Haley is a regular, real-world girls' name... and you're making some pretty tenuous connections with the other stuff. Rich has never said or even hinted that her name is a reference to the comet, and I'm quite sure that if he were making a deliberate reference, he'd have been a lot more blatant about it. Far too many people on this forum see a few mild coincidences and then assume that Rich has definitely done it on purpose, but on every occasion when the author has bothered to step in and comment himself, it's to deny it and tell people to stop looking for stuff that isn't there. The references he makes on purpose don't need author clarification, because they're obvious to most people from the start.

I'm not saying she's a celestial but I'm pretty sure it was an intentional pun at the time. At least it came across as a pun to me the first time I read her name...

Taekwondodo

2011-02-02, 04:55 PM

:smallfrown:

Is this finally going to stop the Haley is half-Celestial theory?

Of course she's not half-celestial. :smallmad:

She's half-snarl. :smallbiggrin: (which I don't think can be counted as celestial but if it does, my bad)

The woman dying is obviously someone Ian hired to pretend to be Haley's mum so she would never find out (and, accidentally, fell in love with). At least not until the snarl decides that she is of age to learn of her origins.

DougTheHead

2011-02-02, 05:55 PM

Careful, you've already got at least one poster thinking this is established fact, and it's far from it. The name of the comet is Halley's comet, and it is pronounced to rhyme with "valley" just as often if not more often that it is pronounced to rhyme with "Bailey". Haley is a regular, real-world girls' name... and you're making some pretty tenuous connections with the other stuff. Rich has never said or even hinted that her name is a reference to the comet, and I'm quite sure that if he were making a deliberate reference, he'd have been a lot more blatant about it. Far too many people on this forum see a few mild coincidences and then assume that Rich has definitely done it on purpose, but on every occasion when the author has bothered to step in and comment himself, it's to deny it and tell people to stop looking for stuff that isn't there. The references he makes on purpose don't need author clarification, because they're obvious to most people from the start.

At the same time, there are names that are references to natural phenomena (Vaarsuvius and Pompey, for example) that he hasn't done anything with.

That being said, today's title is an obvious pun on Halley's Comet, so the incredibly tenuous half-Celestial theory has that going for it, if little else at this point.

MoonCat

2011-02-02, 07:00 PM

If we were inclined to epiletic trees, that would be more support for the celestial or half celestial implications as those would all be associated with celestial bodies.

Well, we are somewhat inclined towards epileptic trees, but I'm not. Although I did support the 'old gladiator is Ian theory'. Do they count as epileptics if they're true?

Careful, you've already got at least one poster thinking this is established fact, and it's far from it. The name of the comet is Halley's comet, and it is pronounced to rhyme with "valley" just as often if not more often that it is pronounced to rhyme with "Bailey". Haley is a regular, real-world girls' name... and you're making some pretty tenuous connections with the other stuff. Rich has never said or even hinted that her name is a reference to the comet, and I'm quite sure that if he were making a deliberate reference, he'd have been a lot more blatant about it. Far too many people on this forum see a few mild coincidences and then assume that Rich has definitely done it on purpose, but on every occasion when the author has bothered to step in and comment himself, it's to deny it and tell people to stop looking for stuff that isn't there. The references he makes on purpose don't need author clarification, because they're obvious to most people from the start.

I think it's just a funny addition that doesn't mean anything, and won't make a difference. There's no need to worry I'm going to post up a thread over it being proof Haley is part celestial. And that was just shredded, no one thinks that anymore, right? It's like V and Pompey, a second name that makes a joke about the previous one.

Nimrod's Son

2011-02-02, 10:56 PM

At the same time, there are names that are references to natural phenomena (Vaarsuvius and Pompey, for example) that he hasn't done anything with.
I'm not debating that. I took V's name to have been inspired by Vesuvius the first time I read strip #1, and the introduction of Pompey was a pleasing confirmation. That said, there has never been anything, in or out of the comic, that suggests Haley's name was inspired by the comet. It's possible, sure, but we shouldn't take that as proof of anything.

That being said, today's title is an obvious pun on Halley's Comet, so the incredibly tenuous half-Celestial theory has that going for it, if little else at this point.
Again, I'm not debating that - save maybe for the idea that this title counts as evidence for the celestial idea in any way.

I think it's just a funny addition that doesn't mean anything, and won't make a difference. There's no need to worry I'm going to post up a thread over it being proof Haley is part celestial.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you were. :smallsmile: I only said "careful" there because I've already got into an argument in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185598) with someone who has taken your post as fact, when it isn't.

And that was just shredded, no one thinks that anymore, right?
Wrong, sadly. :smallwink:

MoonCat

2011-02-02, 11:22 PM

Again, I'm not debating that - save maybe for the idea that this title counts as evidence for the celestial idea in any way.

It most definitely doesn't! It's just a pun that I think is enhanced by the hair and the last name.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you were. :smallsmile: I only said "careful" there because I've already got into an argument in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185598) with someone who has taken your post as fact, when it isn't

Ugh. All I said was Haley had more connections to the pun! How are people taking that as EVIDENCE?!?!?

Wrong, sadly. :smallwink:

:smallsigh: Why? Two things were used to say it existed, and both have been jossed.

Nimrod's Son

2011-02-02, 11:31 PM

:smallsigh: Why? Two things were used to say it existed, and both have been jossed.
I see you've only been here a few months; you'll get used to it. :smallsmile:

MoonCat

2011-02-02, 11:44 PM

I see you've only been here a few months; you'll get used to it. :smallsmile:

No I won't! I hate it when people are irrational! when I first red about it I was like; "Hmm, I'll see if that works out, seems interesting, but I'm not sure it's plausible." But how can they still think it's true! The originator said it was over!:smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh: