sneak attack question (3.5)

[Xiander]

Okay, attacking someone who is unaware of you, enables you to deal sneak attack dammage. That much is simple. What i have been unable to dig up is any RAW statement as to how many attacks you can get on a person before he is aware of you.

Example: Joe the rouge is level ten and has a base attack bonus of +7/+2. Joe has hidden himself in an alley in order to assult a guard. when the guard passes by the alley, blissfully unaware of Joes sinister pressence, Joe step out behind him and stab him twice. Both attacks hit and the first deal sneak attack dammage.

Does the second?

[Waker]

flat-footed: Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
In the situation you posted, this would apply. The guard is flat-footed until his turn. Meaning that if Joe rolled high on initiative he may get a second round of attacks using sneak attack.

[Pika...]

Well, tings technically happen simultaneously in six second intervals for everyone on the battlefield. So basically, your opponent you attack with the sneak attacks who's "turn" is not until five people later is kinda frozen in time. All your attacks in a full-attack happen in one go. Basically "STAB-STAB".

[Yuki Akuma]

If your foe is flat-footed - which, if you ambushed him, he is - all attacks qualify for sneak attack.

Any attack that qualifies for sneak attack deals sneak attack damage. The only time you can't deal sneak attack damage with the second is if the first caused you to lose invisibility or such.

You even get to do it again next round, because you stabbed him in the surprise round and will likely get a higher initiative than him!

[Xiander]

Oh bother, i wrote out my example wrong... I know how flatfootedness work. What i cannot find is how to treat a full attack made against a oponent who knows you are somewhere close but not where.

New example: Joe easily drops the guard he ambushed, but is spotted by another guard. Rather than fight face to face, joe darts down the alley, gets out of sight and hides again. The guard follows him, knowing that Joe is there and that he is hostile, yet failing to actually spot the rouge.
When Joe breaks his cover to attack the guard, assuming tha the guard passes within range of a full attack, does he get sneak attack on one or both of his attacks? RAW? RAI?

[Urpriest]

Oh bother, i wrote out my example wrong... I know how flatfootedness work. What i cannot find is how to treat a full attack made against a oponent who knows you are somewhere close but not where.

New example: Joe easily drops the guard he ambushed, but is spotted by another guard. Rather than fight face to face, joe darts down the alley, gets out of sight and hides again. The guard follows him, knowing that Joe is there and that he is hostile, yet failing to actually spot the rouge.
When Joe breaks his cover to attack the guard, assuming tha the guard passes within range of a full attack, does he get sneak attack on one or both of his attacks? RAW? RAI?

You're thinking about it wrong. You don't get sneak attack just for an unaware opponent. The opponent has to be either denied their dexterity bonus to AC or flanked. So the answer to this question depends entirely on whether the guard gets his dexterity bonus to AC against the attacks in question.

[Elric VIII]

I think it's the same as making a hide check during movement. The alley is granting you cover/concealment at some point and you are taking the opportunity to hide. This would allow SA on only the first attack as per the normal rules for attacking from hiding.

If you make a ranged attack you can take a move action and -20 penalty to your check to hide again (sniping).

[Xiander]

You're thinking about it wrong. You don't get sneak attack just for an unaware opponent. The opponent has to be either denied their dexterity bonus to AC or flanked. So the answer to this question depends entirely on whether the guard gets his dexterity bonus to AC against the attacks in question.

Does he though? He is aware of the threat but has no idea where it is located (in a way like an invisible attacker). i have been unable to find anything about this on the SRD, maybe because i suck at looking for it, but it seems to me he should loose his dex at least for the first attack, maybe all of them depending on the way you read the rules.
The problem is, i can't find anywhere where it says anything about it. So what is your oppinion? I do believe a lot of the people on this forum is better qualified to judge than me.


I think it's the same as making a hide check during movement. The alley is granting you cover/concealment at some point and you are taking the opportunity to hide. This would allow SA on only the first attack as per the normal rules for attacking from hiding.

Where does it say that you only get sneak attack on the first roll? That is the part i can't locate myself.

[KillianHawkeye]

You're thinking about it wrong. You don't get sneak attack just for an unaware opponent. The opponent has to be either denied their dexterity bonus to AC or flanked. So the answer to this question depends entirely on whether the guard gets his dexterity bonus to AC against the attacks in question.

If the guy is unaware of you, he DOESN'T get his Dex bonus to AC. The situation described is that the Rogue is Hiding and then attacking a foe who fails to Spot him. Not surprisingly, the solution to this problem can be found in the description of the Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) skill:

If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

The fact that you need to immediately Hide again means that the target becomes aware of you after your first attack. So only the first attack will get Sneak Attack in a situation where the opponent is not flat-footed.

[Xiander]

The fact that you need to immediately Hide again means that the target becomes aware of you after your first attack. So only the first attack will get Sneak Attack in a situation where the opponent is not flat-footed.

It can be read to that effect yes. But it can also mean that you can only hide again if you do so imedeately, which says nothing about flatfootedness or sneak attack.

[Moginheden]

I haven't found the passage on invisibility although I've heard it quoted before. However if you hide from the target then attack it you have just performed a mundane version of invisibility. The fact that it wasn't magic would have no effect and the same rules would apply, (ie first attack he's denied dex, 2nd he got hit so he knows exactly where you are and gets to use his dex so you can't sneak attack him.)

This gets a little murkier with twf as the 2 weapons should probably land at the same time in my mind, but you could say it's one after the other. Personally in the second situation you described if the rogue is using 2 daggers I'd have him roll 4d20. The first 2 are vs flat-footed AC and get to sneak attack, the second 2 are vs full AC and don't get to sneak attack.

[Yuki Akuma]

What?

That's not why only one attack works when invisible.

Invisibility fails once you attack. You can sneak attack as much as you like under greater invisibility.

[Moginheden]

What?

That's not why only one attack works when invisible.

Invisibility fails once you attack. You can sneak attack as much as you like under greater invisibility.

sorry, bad wording on my part, replace "knows exactly where you are" with "can see you"

[Loki Eremes]

This is going so far for a simple question, but the debate is open so xD


If you have enough BaB to make a Full attack, and you opponent DEX mod is denied, ALL OF YOUR ATTACKS deals SA.
This happens because although logic dictates that after the first attack your opponent knows that you are attacking him, the attacks happens to quickly for him to respond.



but i will resume all the thing said so far:

- Win initiative = SA
- surprise attack = flat foot = no DEX mod (exceptions*) = full round SA + another full round of SA (if you win initiative)
- Invisibility = as your first attack cancels invi, only your first attack deals SA (but not pretty sure, i think it will also be full round SA considering what ive said earlier)
- Greater invi = no DEX mod (exceptions*) = SA; and you keep your invi for the next rounds.


(exceptions*) = Uncanny Dodge.

[Xiander]

What?

That's not why only one attack works when invisible.

Invisibility fails once you attack. You can sneak attack as much as you like under greater invisibility.

Is the general consensus that "attack" in this sentence means rolls the first attack dice? The actual rules text seems very vague about it, leading me to think that it can be read both ways. That is, the text could mean either that the first attack gets snak attack dammage, or that the firs full attack action and all the attacks in it get sneak attack damage.

[ericgrau]

Ya it's one attack because he's aware of you and sees you after the first attack. But there are other ways to deny dex to AC. During the first round of combat and the surprise round before a monster has acted he is flat footed and you may full attack away even if seen. And if you're not seen after the first attack, as with greater invisibility for example, you can also full attack. Staying hidden with normal hiding is right out though. Besides the -20 penalty you need to spend a move action to become hidden again, and then only if he didn't see you on the first attack which isn't normally plausible in melee. Doable at range though or with special class features.

[wayfare]

I would say that the interval between the two attacks would be too small for the guard to react to it. Both attack get sneak attack -- do you normally stop being flat-footed after suffering 1 attack?

[Starbuck_II]

I would say that the interval between the two attacks would be too small for the guard to react to it. Both attack get sneak attack -- do you normally stop being flat-footed after suffering 1 attack?

Not unless there is a turn in between blows. :smallbiggrin:

[Xiander]

I would say that the interval between the two attacks would be too small for the guard to react to it. Both attack get sneak attack -- do you normally stop being flat-footed after suffering 1 attack?

The only presedence we have is invisibility, which i still hold could be read both ways. I personally like rouges and think it okay to let them have sneak attack on all roles, but I wanted to know if the rules actually said something about it that I had failed to discover.

It seems like people in here are devided about 50/50 on the isue, which in itself is an interesting fact.

[Loki Eremes]

The only presedence we have is invisibility, which i still hold could be read both ways. I personally like rouges and think it okay to let them have sneak attack on all roles, but I wanted to know if the rules actually said something about it that I had failed to discover.

It seems like people in here are devided about 50/50 on the isue, which in itself is an interesting fact.


I, and the people i know always used SA in full round actions.
Why? because is not in anyway overpowered (unless you optimize it, but anything optimized gets somehow overpowered :smallbiggrin:, i mean, that the reason of combat optimization)

lvl 20 rogue => 10d6 SA = 60dmg MAX / 30dmg average per hit.
If you add lets say a short sword damage at that lvl, you wont be going up more than 20dmg MAX...so thats it 50dmg per hit at lvl 20.

If you compare this to other classes i believe its necesary for the Rogue to SA as full attack. First reason is: is not that much of damage. Second reason: its not easy to SA and full attack action if you're not a specialized mobility fighter.

There's always ways to fill in the holes, but you need lots of manuals to do this and in the corebook, I really think that they allow him to Sneak Full Attack because of what i explained earlier.