PDA

View Full Version : 3.5 - Balancing out the players (Help! D= )



Silus
2011-01-31, 06:33 PM
Alternate thread title: "How to kill off munchkins"

Anyway, first time DMing, and I made a pretty big mistake of letting the players become way too powerful way too fast (Feral Goliath Barbarian for example). They're around levels 6-11 now (I also made the mistake of letting them **** around with a Deck of Many Things (It's a crowd favorite. One guy actually survived 23 draws)), and they've not even set out on their real mission yet. The one ace up my sleeve is that this is a planar campaign, and I'm the only one with any "proper" knowledge of the planes. So basically, I'm wondering, how can I balance this out?

Some ideas I've had:

1. While on Carceri, introduce both Sanity and Taint into the game and make the effects stick. Maybe throw in some of those no-win problems (kill five children or slaughter a village to complete their goal for example).

2. When they get onto the plane of Gehenna, have them be attacked by Magma Elementals. Have the PC's make balance checks or end up tumbling down the Plane.

3. While on Ysgard (where they are currently), have them be attacked by Thrym Hounds and Frost Giants.

4. Orcus. 'Nuff said.

Would that be going too hard on them do you think? Or should I kick it up a notch and actively be trying to kill the PC's?

Moginheden
2011-01-31, 06:42 PM
Is the problem the PCs aren't balanced with each other or not balanced with the rest of the world?

If they aren't balanced with each other you've got a major problem. Trying to kill your players is always considered a no-no but I know I'd love to kill off a munchkin ranger in my group that can do more damage in one round than any other party member does in 3.

If they are relatively balanced with each other then there is no problem, you just make the monsters harder. Give them class levels or use higher CR enemies. try to figure out what effective CR your players are. My players are level 6 with no racial level adjustments but I count them as CR8 due to having too many points in their point-buy system. It works out pretty well... except the munchkin who also rolled something like 34 natural 20s out of 109 rolls in one of our sessions... 8 of them in a row... :smallfurious:

Silus
2011-01-31, 06:50 PM
Is the problem the PCs aren't balanced with each other or not balanced with the rest of the world?

If they aren't balanced with each other you've got a major problem. Trying to kill your players is always considered a no-no but I know I'd love to kill off a munchkin ranger in my group that can do more damage in one round than any other party member does in 3.

If they are relatively balanced with each other then there is no problem, you just make the monsters harder. Give them class levels or use higher CR enemies. try to figure out what effective CR your players are. My players are level 6 with no racial level adjustments but I count them as CR8 due to having too many points in their point-buy system. It works out pretty well... except the munchkin who also rolled something like 34 natural 20s out of 109 rolls in one of our sessions... 8 of them in a row... :smallfurious:

Well the highest at the moment is like level 8, but he'll be gaining like 5 levels thanks to the Deck and some of the 23 cards he drew. He's playing a Chaotic Annoying Bronze Dragon using the HD thing from Dragon Magazine, so even at lvl 11, he's kinda balanced with everyone else. But yeah, these guys are just decimating what I throw at them (though I figure 70 Hobgoblins against a party of 4 lvl 6's isn't that much of a challenge).

Should I just pull out all the stops and throw absurd yet practical-for-the-location monsters at them? Like a Fire Giant tribe when they hit up Gehenna?

Moginheden
2011-01-31, 06:59 PM
Well the highest at the moment is like level 8, but he'll be gaining like 5 levels thanks to the Deck and some of the 23 cards he drew. He's playing a Chaotic Annoying Bronze Dragon using the HD thing from Dragon Magazine, so even at lvl 11, he's kinda balanced with everyone else. But yeah, these guys are just decimating what I throw at them (though I figure 70 Hobgoblins against a party of 4 lvl 6's isn't that much of a challenge).

Should I just pull out all the stops and throw absurd yet practical-for-the-location monsters at them? Like a Fire Giant tribe when they hit up Gehenna?

Yes. Ignore the character level written on their sheet and send enemies that are appropriate for what they actually are.

If they can steamroll what your throwing at them bump up the challenge rating by 2 or 3 and try again. Or alternately bump up the CR by 5 or more but build in a way for them to run away if it's too much.

It can take a while to figure out what their effective challenge rating actually is, but once you find it the game should work well. Just remember to give XP as if the enemies were less than what they are to match, (IE my level 6 party killing level 9 creatures get XP as if they killed a level 7 creature because I've given them an adjustment of 2.)

Callista
2011-01-31, 07:03 PM
You gave them a deck of many things... that's... uh, yeah, you pretty much messed up the game balance right there.

That they're still balanced with each other means you are very, very lucky...

Just titrate the CR to their power level. Eventually, you'll see when you're challenging them again.

nightwyrm
2011-01-31, 07:04 PM
Just tell them you screwed up coz it was your first time DMing and ask for a reboot. Killing PCs as a punishment tends not to go over well.

Silus
2011-01-31, 07:05 PM
Yes. Ignore the character level written on their sheet and send enemies that are appropriate for what they actually are.

If they can steamroll what your throwing at them bump up the challenge rating by 2 or 3 and try again. Or alternately bump up the CR by 5 or more but build in a way for them to run away if it's too much.

It can take a while to figure out what their effective challenge rating actually is, but once you find it the game should work well. Just remember to give XP as if the enemies were less than what they are to match, (IE my level 6 party killing level 9 creatures get XP as if they killed a level 7 creature because I've given them an adjustment of 2.)

Fair enough. I'm just so very thankful that they don't know jack diddly about the Planes. One of the guys got a Keep from the Deck and decided to plant it on Outlands of all places to try and work it as a trade post. It's like "Dude, Sigil is like right there".

Also, they're going to Pandemonium at some point. Not sure if that is too mean or what...

Silus
2011-01-31, 07:07 PM
Just tell them you screwed up coz it was your first time DMing and ask for a reboot. Killing PCs as a punishment tends not to go over well.

Well I'm not saying I'd be doing it as punishment. I'd just be throwing crazy absurd things at them. Like a group of 8 Huge Magma Elementals that attack them on a 45-degree cliff face, and a chance of getting flattened by falling rocks.

Or something.

Silus
2011-01-31, 07:08 PM
You gave them a deck of many things... that's... uh, yeah, you pretty much messed up the game balance right there.

That they're still balanced with each other means you are very, very lucky...

Just titrate the CR to their power level. Eventually, you'll see when you're challenging them again.

I know ;_;

Hopefully Sanity and Taint on Carceri will help even things out...Hopefully...

Callista
2011-01-31, 07:15 PM
Off topic: You don't have to make three posts; just quote everybody in one post and reply to it all.

And, yeah, if it turns out you can't re-balance the game, you might as well explain to everybody that you screwed up and want to start over... though, if you've got a plotline running that you want to keep going, you could have them start another party in the same world, working against the same evil that the original party was. Or, for that matter, you could do the reset in-world, and have some powerful magic or something of that sort shift them back in time, with only one strong memory apiece of the events that happened in the meantime--that would let them keep low-level versions of their old characters. Chances are the Deck did some things that could result in cataclysm, yes? If so, then let the dominos fall from that point and reset the entire world; maybe a powerful magic-user created the reset just so that the world would survive at all... you may have said wizard annihilated in the resulting chaos, if you like; that way you won't have some random powerful NPC around who could just solve the whole world's problems if he liked. After all, the Deck is a major artifact, and world-destroying catastrophe is not beyond its reach. Heck, maybe it's sentient and malevolent.

Even if you reset in-game, though, you should probably tell the players why you're doing it. "I screwed up" isn't the worst thing in the world to admit to.

Silus
2011-01-31, 07:19 PM
Sorry, my bad ^^;

But yeah, it may be a good thing though, as it saves time with that annoying traditional leveling. I was gonna have them **** around until level 10 and then introduce the BBEG, but at least now I can introduce them in the next session or two (and in the BBEG conflicts, I WILL be trying to either kill the PC's (as it's what the BBEG would do) or escape (also what they'd do)).

I suppose I could reset the game, but I don't want to force people to reset their characters ;_;

I am gonna to have to level the BBEG up into Epic levels though, and give him at least one partner....

Psyren
2011-01-31, 07:34 PM
Just tell them you screwed up coz it was your first time DMing and ask for a reboot. Killing PCs as a punishment tends not to go over well.

Seriously, this. Taint and Sanity and what have you just smell like an arms race to me.

Orbin Dules
2011-01-31, 10:47 PM
Well the highest at the moment is like level 8, but he'll be gaining like 5 levels thanks to the Deck and some of the 23 cards he drew. He's playing a Chaotic Annoying Bronze Dragon using the HD thing from Dragon Magazine, so even at lvl 11, he's kinda balanced with everyone else. But yeah, these guys are just decimating what I throw at them (though I figure 70 Hobgoblins against a party of 4 lvl 6's isn't that much of a challenge).

Aren't Bronze Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#bronzeDragon) "always Lawful Good?"

Silus
2011-02-01, 06:16 AM
Aren't Bronze Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#bronzeDragon) "always Lawful Good?"

Funny enough, the guy drew a Judgement card from the Deck so I shifted his alignment to LG. He complained that he couldn't play his character and opted for the loss of a level so he could move back to Chaotic Neutral.

Guy is the kind that pickpockets NPC's left and right and wouldn't have any qualms about stealing from party members. He's a kleptomaniac in dragon form.

But yeah, I suppose I should email my group about doing away with the Deck changes. Hopefully they don't see me as the bad guy ;_; I'm already kinda on thin ice as I'm a new DM. Kinda stumbling and flailing my way through this.

Eldan
2011-02-01, 06:57 AM
The way you do the planes is by using their magical effects as written. There's pages of lists on what spells don't work where. Or how the effects are changed. Have summoned creatures be Quasielemental instead of regular, and break free. Give them magic addiction on the astral. And so on.

Silus
2011-02-01, 07:02 AM
The way you do the planes is by using their magical effects as written. There's pages of lists on what spells don't work where. Or how the effects are changed. Have summoned creatures be Quasielemental instead of regular, and break free. Give them magic addiction on the astral. And so on.

Gonna have to look up those lists. Do you remember what book/website they're in/on?

Also, I was tinkering with the idea of applying Taint while on Evil based Planes, and Sanity when encountering either impossible or nightmarish things (First instance was stepping into their Organization's home office and their having to roll Sanity for the 'ol "It's bigger on the inside than the outside" thing). Do you think that's a little too cruel, or should I see about running with it?

Greenish
2011-02-01, 09:43 AM
Also, I was tinkering with the idea of applying Taint while on Evil based Planes, and Sanity when encountering either impossible or nightmarish things (First instance was stepping into their Organization's home office and their having to roll Sanity for the 'ol "It's bigger on the inside than the outside" thing). Do you think that's a little too cruel, or should I see about running with it?Are you doing it because their ability to steamroll your encounters annoys you, or because you genuinely think it will enhance the game?

Silus
2011-02-01, 10:10 AM
Are you doing it because their ability to steamroll your encounters annoys you, or because you genuinely think it will enhance the game?

A bit of both to be honest. I figure if they're going to tromp around the Abyss, Hell, Carceri and all the evil places in between, there should be some sort of inherent danger. Exposure to raw evil should have some detrimental effects after all.

Pika...
2011-02-01, 02:30 PM
A bit of both to be honest. I figure if they're going to tromp around the Abyss, Hell, Carceri and all the evil places in between, there should be some sort of inherent danger. Exposure to raw evil should have some detrimental effects after all.

Annoyed?

Dood, you told them to muchkin. I tried not too.

Please see my thread on this same subject. I highly suggest just doing a restart with new characters/a new plot (because you spoiled it already, which makes it boring for some like me). But this time have limits and restrictions. You are a brand new DM, and basically bit off way more than you could chew like TurtleKing tried. Also, keep better track of progression and encounter CRs/mechanics next time I think.


P.S. It's a Copper Dragon, and they are supposed to be annoying. :smallwink:

Silus
2011-02-01, 04:01 PM
Me annoyed? Not really. If you'll remember, I mentioned several times last session that I'd have to find ways to kill you guy's characters. I've decided to move away from that and take things one step at a time.

*Crazy psycho evil laugh* Hope you have a high Wisdom score, you're gonna need it.

Edit: Also, must remember to seek advice on other websites.

TurtleKing
2011-02-02, 03:54 PM
Since one player has already posted I don't feel so bad about posting. In my defence I am trying to optimize my healing which was strongly encouraged by the dm since he stated the battles will be brutal. In my case I am interested in ranged healing which has some pretty good spells to choose from. By being a Bard2/ Favored Soul4 at the time with Melodic Casting feat I am not always able to run over to their side and heal them so ranged heals is my answer.