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Moginheden
2011-01-31, 07:24 PM
I'm running a level 5 dwarven cleric of Moradin. I've heard around these boards that clerics are badly overpowered/game breaking, and I'm starting to notice that with some of the spells I'll be getting soon, (like air walk.)

This game is being DMed by someone who had never played D&D before. He's doing pretty well but doesn't know how to deal with some of the weirder things players can do, and usually abuse.

I'm trying to figure out what kinds of things I should avoid and what sources of spells I should look into, (we have been pulling from all the wizards source books, but not the dragon magazines so far, the DM hasn't even read through the PhB and DMG and we are teaching him as we go.)

So as a player how can I be an anti-munchkin to go easy on our DM while still playing smart and getting the most out of my character?

nightwyrm
2011-01-31, 07:28 PM
Play like how WotC thought clerics were meant to be played, be a healer and party support.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-01-31, 07:29 PM
What is it that you wish to do? The cleric can fill various rolls, and some can be fulfilled without being overpowered.

The combat healer is the most clear example of this, really. But that's usually not what people want to play.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-31, 07:30 PM
You could limmit yourself to being a healbot. Prepare things like remove disease, delay posion, other status ailment-removing spells (I'm assuming you burn for cure spells.) That's about as low-powered as a cleric can get short of doing nothing. Even then, you still have some ability to attack things and can wear armor just fine.

EDIT: Ninja'ed

Demon 997
2011-01-31, 07:30 PM
Or just be as powerful as you normally would, but try not to overshadow other players or smash the plot into tiny pieces. I think this problem can be solved by how you play as much as what your character can do.

linebackeru
2011-01-31, 07:31 PM
Doesn't Cleric only get overpowered by using Divine Metamagic? Why not just avoid that? No reason to totally hamstring yourself.

Moginheden
2011-01-31, 07:33 PM
I guess what I'm thinking is I'd like to try out some of the spells that are interesting and useful, but usually passed-over because there is an uber-spell on the same level. Any suggestions?

gomipile
2011-01-31, 07:39 PM
Well, you could try to be 1/4 of the party for the most part and hold your more powerful tactic in reserve for emergencies. That way if a friend is about to die, you can help pull him out of the fire.

This is always better than using a tactic that trivializes an encounter right off the bat.

Also, roleplay. You, as a player might know what combinations of spells and abilities will trivialize the encounter you are presented with, but your cleric might not. Try to build your cleric's repertoire up based on his in-game experiences rather than coming to the party with a Batman-esque adventure kit and the knowledge to back it up from the start.

Another idea: you can fill a third or half your spell slots with stuff that buffs the party, and make sure you use those types of spells a lot. This is much more fun for everyone than if the CoDzilla or Batman wizard stomps over every encounter solo.

Keep in mind though, that sometimes you might have to solo an encounter if either the DM miscalculates CR relative to your party, you are the only one who can deal with a mechanic and the DM either forgot, or he built the encounter assuming you could handle it. Doing this once in a while is fine, just as the party has to depend on the skill-monkey to defeat traps and the party face to not insult the King's heritage. Just try to be humble about it, and do your bit when you have to.

Basically, what I am saying is that attitude goes a long way. If you aren't the immature-for-a-teenager player trying to rack up the most kills and spitting on the rest of the party's fun, while being a general jerk, you'll probably be fine.

gomipile
2011-01-31, 07:43 PM
Doesn't Cleric only get overpowered by using Divine Metamagic? Why not just avoid that? No reason to totally hamstring yourself.

DMM pushes them over the edge, but the real tier 1 goodness is just the fact that a Cleric is a full caster that can choose from the entire published spell list every day. Or the spell list allowed by the DM, of course.

But the basic mechanic that gives the Cleric an unlimited spellbook of spells that are different from but every bit as strong as arcane spells is the thing.

That being said, even if they were limited by a spellbook, they'd still be tier 1.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-31, 07:44 PM
I'm running a level 5 dwarven cleric of Moradin. I've heard around these boards that clerics are badly overpowered/game breaking, and I'm starting to notice that with some of the spells I'll be getting soon, (like air walk.)

This game is being DMed by someone who had never played D&D before. He's doing pretty well but doesn't know how to deal with some of the weirder things players can do, and usually abuse.

I'm trying to figure out what kinds of things I should avoid and what sources of spells I should look into, (we have been pulling from all the wizards source books, but not the dragon magazines so far, the DM hasn't even read through the PhB and DMG and we are teaching him as we go.)

So as a player how can I be an anti-munchkin to go easy on our DM while still playing smart and getting the most out of my character?
Simplest method? Use primarily party-level buffs, group debuffs, and utility spells. Bless, Bane, Silence, Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge, Prayer, Speak with Dead, and so on (although you've got better selections if you branch out of Core). Air Walk isn't really a problem - it's just reasonably long-duration flight at a rather slow speed. It's actually a utility effect - get one person across the chasm with a rope type deal. In a dungeon, it's less useful than you might think (although in open areas, it's great).


Does Cleric only get overpowered by using Divine Metamagic? Why not just avoid that? No reason to totally hamstring yourself.It's not being overpowered that's a problem of itself; the DM can just throw higher-CR critters at you. It's being overpowered compared to the rest of the party that's a problem. If you keep it to party-level buffs, you won't overshadow anyone, party balance is maintained, and there's no problem.

A DMM(Persistent Spell) Cleric who abuses Nightsticks (Libris Mortis) and works with Mass Lesser Vigor (or something else in the mass vigor line: Spell Compendium - fast healing for a certain number of people in range - short duration, but that's what Persistent Spell is for), Elation (Book of Exalted Deeds - do note that it's not an Exalted spell, however), Recitation (Spell Compendium), Holy Aura, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell Compendium), and similar spells makes his party much, much stronger (and himself as well), but keeps the party relatively balanced (although he does make the Fighter and Rogue better at there jobs, without buffing the Wizard overly much - but eh, the Wizard's often overpowered anyway) will get much fewer frowns at the table than will the DMM(Persistent Spell) Cleric who abuses Nightsticks (Libris Mortis) and uses Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might. Why? He's keeping the party strong, rather than himself.

MeeposFire
2011-01-31, 08:27 PM
Boost others and not yourself and the cleric will seem quite tame.

Runestar
2011-01-31, 08:47 PM
It's funny, I played a battlecleric once and never felt they were overpowered.

The main problem is that you don't really have that much time to buff in combat, and many of their key buffs have quite a short duration. At lower lvs, usually shield other or mass aid. At mid lvs, quickened divine favour+divine power. Once in a while, I get hit with a lucky dispel magic and it really sucks.

My combat capability was comparable to the fighter, but I never really felt like I was overshadowing anyone in the party. :smallconfused:

ericgrau
2011-01-31, 09:27 PM
It's a bad myth that WotC expected it (more like 2e players expected it if anyone) but you could be a walking bandaid. Not just cures but also remove X. Or that plus bashing things.

"Status effect" buffs like flight are supposed to be the norm in higher level D&D and aren't really broken, but DMs like yours might not expect them nor know how to handle them. Related encounters are part of the fun of the game, kind of like rock paper scissors but more like this:

http://thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/rockpaperscissors.jpg

The simple solution is to avoid any status effect type buff until he gets his feet wet.

gomipile
2011-02-02, 03:47 AM
It's a bad myth that WotC expected it (more like 2e players expected it if anyone) but you could be a walking bandaid. Not just cures but also remove X. Or that plus bashing things.

"Status effect" buffs like flight are supposed to be the norm in higher level D&D and aren't really broken, but DMs like yours might not expect them nor know how to handle them. Related encounters are part of the fun of the game, kind of like rock paper scissors but more like this:

http://thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/rockpaperscissors.jpg

The simple solution is to avoid any status effect type buff until he gets his feet wet.

Hmm, the image link in your spoiler is broken.

Kuma Kode
2011-02-02, 05:36 AM
Hmm, the image link in your spoiler is broken. I thought the missing image was some kind of metaphor I just wasn't getting.

But yeah, it's relative to your party. If your party is a bunch of optimizers, you'll need to keep up. If they primarily take Improved Initiative and Alertness, you'll need to resort to being the walking band-aid and buffer. Secondary tank works, but if you match the fighter, it kinda makes him seem unnecessary. After all, you can fight just as well as he can, but can he buff, heal, and make himself fly?