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Elric VIII
2011-01-31, 09:31 PM
I was told that there is a feat that allows classes (we were talking about the Ninja at the time) to wear armor and still get the benefit of abilities that say "when unarmored and unencumbered" as long as the ACP is 0. He is unsure whether it is a homebrew feat or a real feat and does not remember its name.

Does anyone have any insight into this?

Darrin
2011-01-31, 11:00 PM
I was told that there is a feat that allows classes (we were talking about the Ninja at the time) to wear armor and still get the benefit of abilities that say "when unarmored and unencumbered" as long as the ACP is 0. He is unsure whether it is a homebrew feat or a real feat and does not remember its name.

Does anyone have any insight into this?

The usual go-to is Bracers of Armor. They provide an armor bonus and can be enchanted with armor enhancements, but don't count as armor.

There's also... I think it's called Ironthorn Extract? In Sandstorm, maybe? Gives ordinary clothing a +1 armor bonus, I think... but only lasts a week or so.

Elric VIII
2011-01-31, 11:03 PM
Well, I'm specifically interested in this feat since it will allow me to wear a Mithril Celestial Armor for +10 max dex and no ACP. This has a base AC of 8, and only costs ~ 26000 vs a 64000 Bracers of Armor +8.

EDIT: You're correct about the extract.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-31, 11:47 PM
Not sure what that is, but I'd be interested to see if it exists.

It's a pretty lame suggestion, I know, but you can always consider Swordsage (a very ninja-y class, that can wear light armor and add wisdom to AC) instead; doesn't really get anything like sudden strike per se...

Mando Knight
2011-02-01, 12:08 AM
It's a pretty lame suggestion, I know, but you can always consider Swordsage (a very ninja-y class, that can wear light armor and add wisdom to AC) instead; doesn't really get anything like sudden strike per se...
Swordsage: What all 3.5 Ninjas wish they were. (Ninjas in other D&D editions are generally just Thieves, Rogues, and/or Assassins)

Optimator
2011-02-01, 12:17 AM
My DM actually just lets ninjas wear light armour and retain the wisdom bonus. Hardly overpowering and a welcome boost to a struggling class.

Elric VIII
2011-02-01, 08:01 AM
It's a pretty lame suggestion, I know, but you can always consider Swordsage (a very ninja-y class, that can wear light armor and add wisdom to AC) instead; doesn't really get anything like sudden strike per se...


Swordsage: What all 3.5 Ninjas wish they were. (Ninjas in other D&D editions are generally just Thieves, Rogues, and/or Assassins)


My DM actually just lets ninjas wear light armour and retain the wisdom bonus. Hardly overpowering and a welcome boost to a struggling class.

My thoughts exactly. I'm considering this for a build for a friend that GitP helpped me with. It already uses Swordsage, but also Ninja Spy, which needs Evasion. So, in order to get into that class ASAP I need either a Rogue, Monk, or Ninja base. It currently uses Rogue.

Greenish
2011-02-01, 08:17 AM
My thoughts exactly. I'm considering this for a build for a friend that GitP helpped me with. It already uses Swordsage, but also Ninja Spy, which needs Evasion. So, in order to get into that class ASAP I need either a Rogue, Monk, or Ninja base. It currently uses Rogue.C.Adventurer Ninja gains Evasion at 12th level. Monk Evasion works in light armour. Wis to AC from either doesn't stack with the one from Swordsage, by most rulings. With the heavy Dex focus the character has, focusing on dexterity instead of wis would probably work better.

true_shinken
2011-02-01, 08:32 AM
Swordsage: What all 3.5 Ninjas wish they were. (Ninjas in other D&D editions are generally just Thieves, Rogues, and/or Assassins)

I think you missed the Complete Handbook of Ninjas of AD&D.

Elric VIII
2011-02-01, 10:56 AM
C.Adventurer Ninja gains Evasion at 12th level. Monk Evasion works in light armour. Wis to AC from either doesn't stack with the one from Swordsage, by most rulings. With the heavy Dex focus the character has, focusing on dexterity instead of wis would probably work better.

Well, there goes that plan. I just assumed it was level 2, since it is basically a Rogue/Monk combination.

Greenish
2011-02-01, 11:11 AM
Well, there goes that plan. I just assumed it was level 2, since it is basically a Rogue/Monk combination.How much ninja do you want to fit into the ninja? There's already rogue, swordsage and ninja spy in there. :smalltongue:

umbrapolaris
2011-02-01, 11:38 AM
I think you missed the Complete Handbook of Ninjas of AD&D.

great book

the ninja as a class (mix of rogue & fighter), then enter the shinobi, a kit for wizard (spirit warrior), thief, fighter (shinobi warrior), even cleric. that give some skills, fluff and abilities to them.

Fouredged Sword
2011-02-01, 12:30 PM
rogue 2 / swordsage 2 -> everything else in your build, plus stances. The added bonus of a good stance will replace the lost 1d6 sneak attack.

Elric VIII
2011-02-01, 05:01 PM
How much ninja do you want to fit into the ninja? There's already rogue, swordsage and ninja spy in there. :smalltongue:

Upon hearing of the supposed feat I wanted to replace the 7 rogue levels with Ninja, specifically for the added acrobatics boost and invisibility. I would have also replaced Weapon Finesse with Intuitive Strike, to capitalize on Wis synnergy. As you know, only 4 of those Rogue levels are before Ninja Spy, so Ninja is out without a complete redesign. It's not going to be used for anything soon, just some tinkering I'm doing in case I decide that I want to play it.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-01, 05:16 PM
Swordsage: What all 3.5 Ninjas wish they were. (Ninjas in other D&D editions are generally just Thieves, Rogues, and/or Assassins)
Slightly off-topic rant

This has always been kind of the problem with ninjas. Traditionally, ninjas were primarily used for cold drops, espionage, the rare assassination, and spreading rumors that ninjas rode around the countryside on giant toads. They operated during the day, dressed as peasants or hosuekeepers so they could blend in. As a fighting style, Ninjitsu (as I understand it) is more or less a glorified form of fighting dirty. Flash powder, eye gauges, elbows to the throat and joints...it was mostly used as a last resort when the ninja was caught, allowing him to quickly incapacitate a guard or bystander before escaping. Hell, even the dress of what we now associate with ninjas (the all-black bodysuit with a slit for eyes) comes from Kabuki theater, where it was the garb of the stagehands (stagehands, like ninjas, were supposed to blend in to the scenery, so a great way to show a ninja assassinating someone was to have one of the stagehands pull out a sword and stab somebody).

In 3e, this is how ninjas are portrayed. They have a few fancy tricks, but really, the one thing they're good at is sneaking into a room and incapacitating a single target as quickly and silently as possible. This is pretty much all they're good for, and while it's historically accurate (kinda), it's not what we all think of when we think "ninjas". We think Snakeeyes and Stormshadow and Naruto and cheesy 80's movies. Ninjas that can quietly dismantle a tank with a few well-placed strikes.

If that's the kind of ninja you're looking for, play Swordsage. They're better at that sort of thing.

true_shinken
2011-02-01, 05:38 PM
This has always been kind of the problem with ninjas. Traditionally, ninjas were primarily used for cold drops, espionage, the rare assassination, and spreading rumors that ninjas rode around the countryside on giant toads. They operated during the day, dressed as peasants or hosuekeepers so they could blend in.
All of this: pure conjecture. No actual historical data on ninjas exist. You have many people conjecturing about a lot of things: peasant heroes, spies for hire, spies for the empire, spies for a lord, mystical assassins... the list goes on and on. All conjectures might be true and all of them might not be true as well.

As a fighting style, Ninjitsu (as I understand it) is more or less a glorified form of fighting dirty.
Ninjitsu is a case of ocidental misspelling. It's called Ninjutsu and it's more than a fighting style; it's the entire 'ninja skill set'.

Flash powder, eye gauges, elbows to the throat and joints...it was mostly used as a last resort when the ninja was caught, allowing him to quickly incapacitate a guard or bystander before escaping.
It should came to no surprise that some of the most powerful fighting styles in the world use similar moves (Krav Maga, Muay Thai).

Hell, even the dress of what we now associate with ninjas (the all-black bodysuit with a slit for eyes) comes from Kabuki theater, where it was the garb of the stagehands (stagehands, like ninjas, were supposed to blend in to the scenery, so a great way to show a ninja assassinating someone was to have one of the stagehands pull out a sword and stab somebody).
And yet, it is debated if it wasn't the other way around. The all-black bodysuit could have been a 'ninja suit' and the stagehands just took it for them, because they were meant to be 'invisible'.
Ninja characters in kabuki used the same outfits as the stagehands.

JaronK
2011-02-01, 06:46 PM
If that's the kind of ninja you're looking for, play Swordsage. They're better at that sort of thing.

Except Swordsages are better at virtually all aspects of being a ninja. You want to sneak in and assassinate someone? Shadow Jaunt/Cloak of Shadows to teleport to a good hiding position, then move action hide. Restore maneuvers and repeat until you're there, then make use of Assassin's Stance and a strike maneuver to take them out quickly, and escape. And that's a 3rd or so level character. If you want to play a realistic ninja just focus more on Setting Sun and Diamond Mind (you're focusing on being mentally prepared and striking at the right moment), if you want to be a fantasy ninja go with Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand (teleport through shadows, bounce around, kill people), if you want somewhere in between mix them. The unarmed variant even means you can kill people with your hands, thus not needing weapons (in intrigue games where this can be important).

In the end, the Ninja class simply doesn't cut it, and the Swordsage absolutely does. You may want to mix in a few skillmonkey classes to get certain key skills (I like Rogue 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Unarmed Swordsage 18 as a ninja build).

JaronK

true_shinken
2011-02-01, 06:51 PM
Except Swordsages are better at virtually all aspects of being a ninja.
Did you even read what he wrote? He is talking of ninja as a spy. Swordsage lacks Disguise, Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidade. How can it be a spy?

JaronK
2011-02-01, 08:16 PM
Did you even read what he wrote? He is talking of ninja as a spy. Swordsage lacks Disguise, Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidade. How can it be a spy?

This is why I mentioned little dips to grab useful skills (specifically, a Rogue dip). Plus, you don't need many skills if you want to simply walk around as a basic commoner peasant... you get just to the edge of where "I'm just a peasant, don't mind me" will get you, then teleport the rest of the way in. And you can do it all unarmed, which the CA Ninja actually can't do (sadly).

JaronK

true_shinken
2011-02-01, 08:48 PM
This is why I mentioned little dips to grab useful skills (specifically, a Rogue dip).
You mentioned dips for 'specific builds'. The whole concept can't be done with Swordsage without dips (and Able Learner). That's hardly specific in my book.

Plus, you don't need many skills if you want to simply walk around as a basic commoner peasant... you get just to the edge of where "I'm just a peasant, don't mind me" will get you, then teleport the rest of the way in.
You require both Bluff and Disguise to pull this efficiently.

And you can do it all unarmed, which the CA Ninja actually can't do (sadly).
You can use sudden strike unarmed just fine, if you're on a pinch. It's actually a lot closer to a 'realistic' ninja spy than doing as much damage as a blade with your punch.

JaronK
2011-02-01, 09:04 PM
You require both Bluff and Disguise to pull this efficiently.

Why? A real commoner has no skills of note. You just wear peasant's clothing and get a job as a hireling for a day. There's no lying there required, nor much of a disguise.


You can use sudden strike unarmed just fine, if you're on a pinch. It's actually a lot closer to a 'realistic' ninja spy than doing as much damage as a blade with your punch.

Unless you've got specific magic items or are built for it, a ninja can't "sudden strike unarmed just fine."

JaronK

Lhurgyof
2011-02-01, 09:05 PM
Sounds like your build is pretty sound.

Make sure to look up epic tumble DC's. :smallsmile:

true_shinken
2011-02-01, 09:13 PM
Why? A real commoner has no skills of note. You just wear peasant's clothing and get a job as a hireling for a day. There's no lying there required, nor much of a disguise.
You need Disguise because you are not a commoner. Farmer commoners have some specific common traits like, dunno, caloused hands and looking down when they walk. Without Disguise, it's pretty to notice stuff like that. You might pick the wrong 'peasant clothing' as well. It's all part of the Disguise skill. Really, just check the skill description. You get a +5 due to 'minot details only' but it's a Disguise check.


Unless you've got specific magic items or are built for it, a ninja can't "sudden strike unarmed just fine."

You mean ninjas can't wear gauntlets? :smallconfused:

JaronK
2011-02-01, 09:23 PM
You need Disguise because you are not a commoner. Farmer commoners have some specific common traits like, dunno, caloused hands and looking down when they walk. Without Disguise, it's pretty to notice stuff like that. You might pick the wrong 'peasant clothing' as well. It's all part of the Disguise skill. Really, just check the skill description. You get a +5 due to 'minot details only' but it's a Disguise check.

Then go with "guy in peasant robes who's looking for work." Now you're not even disguised, it's just what you are.


You mean ninjas can't wear gauntlets? :smallconfused:

So let me get this straight, we're talking about trying to walk in without gear so you look like nothing more than a peasant, and you bring up clubbing someone with a gauntlet? Don't you think that misses the point?

JaronK

true_shinken
2011-02-01, 09:29 PM
Then go with "guy in peasant robes who's looking for work." Now you're not even disguised, it's just what you are.
Ah, the smell of metagaming...


So let me get this straight, we're talking about trying to walk in without gear so you look like nothing more than a peasant, and you bring up clubbing someone with a gauntlet? Don't you think that misses the point?

You're correct. You should just hide a dagger with Sleight of Hand and call it a day.

Elric VIII
2011-02-01, 11:14 PM
I do appreciate the debate, it has raised some interesting points. The character is actually the build suggested here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10227057&postcount=12). The current build is the one that my friend is using, based on movie-style ninja leaping attacks. The one that I was considering would use the Ninja class for the increased stealthiness, in order to be less combat-focused.

You were right about me wanting to be a spy, true_shinken, however Ninja Spy is an actual class from OA. :smallbiggrin:

As for being unarmed JaronK, I had a dip into unarmed Swordsage and grabbed the Snap Kick feat to pile on the damage when I get off my first attack.

I will most likely use 2 levels in Monk (trading Evasion for Invisible Fist), cutting down to 2 levels in Rogue and taking Ninja Spy one level later.

JaronK
2011-02-02, 04:06 AM
Ah, the smell of metagaming...

...how in the world is being exactly what you claim to be instead of coming up with elaborate disguises metagaming? That's just making sense. It means you don't have to worry about stuff like Zone of Truth... you can just say "I'm here looking for work" and then later "I have a job to do, I've been hired to haul this hay" and it's perfectly and completely true.


You're correct. You should just hide a dagger with Sleight of Hand and call it a day.

That would work, but if you're searched you could be found out. If you don't need to have the dagger at all, if you're searched you're still free and clear. The best disguise is being honest... that way there's no lie to catch you in (but you might want to avoid the topic of the guy you want to kill).

And I really like Rogue 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Unarmed Swordsage X as a ninja build, as it really fits the bill nicely (the CA Ninja really misses on too many points). Able Learner solves any and all skill problems. If you wanted Ninja Spy, then the obvious thing to do is just Rogue 2/Unarmed Swordsage X as the entry... Rokugan Ninja was mostly there for the sneak attack bump and weapon proficiencies anyway, so if you're going Ninja Spy it's less necessary anyhow. Certainly Tiger Claw will help give the movie style leaping attacks... and don't forget Battle Jump if you want to go all out with that!

JaronK

true_shinken
2011-02-02, 04:45 PM
...how in the world is being exactly what you claim to be instead of coming up with elaborate disguises metagaming? That's just making sense. It means you don't have to worry about stuff like Zone of Truth... you can just say "I'm here looking for work" and then later "I have a job to do, I've been hired to haul this hay" and it's perfectly and completely true.
Maybe because tat's not what you really are? You are not a 'guy looking for your work', you're a ninja. That's not how lying works! If you're trying to say someting that isn't quite truth, it becomes aparent. If you just craft ridiculous lies to circumvent the way the Bluff skill was written, well, that's metagaming.



That would work, but if you're searched you could be found out.
So bluffing disguise without skills is nice, but using Sleight of Hand with ranks on not is not? :smallconfused:

And I really like Rogue 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Unarmed Swordsage X as a ninja build, as it really fits the bill nicely (the CA Ninja really misses on too many points). Able Learner solves any and all skill problems. If you wanted Ninja Spy, then the obvious thing to do is just Rogue 2/Unarmed Swordsage X as the entry... Rokugan Ninja was mostly there for the sneak attack bump and weapon proficiencies anyway, so if you're going Ninja Spy it's less necessary anyhow. Certainly Tiger Claw will help give the movie style leaping attacks... and don't forget Battle Jump if you want to go all out with that!
So only humans raised by taers are ninjas. I see.

JaronK
2011-02-02, 06:30 PM
Maybe because tat's not what you really are? You are not a 'guy looking for your work', you're a ninja. That's not how lying works! If you're trying to say someting that isn't quite truth, it becomes aparent. If you just craft ridiculous lies to circumvent the way the Bluff skill was written, well, that's metagaming.

Except it is the truth. Sense Motive determines if you've told a lie, but you haven't. You really truly are a guy looking for work, and later when the guards question you you really truly are a guy who's just doing his job, and the thing you have to do right now is go shovel that hay over there (or whatever).


So bluffing disguise without skills is nice, but using Sleight of Hand with ranks on not is not? :smallconfused:

Depends on how thoroughly they search you, obviously. You could do it by hiding the dagger on you, in which case there's a tiny chance they'd find it, or you could do it with your fists, in which case there's no chance. If they ask "are you carrying any weapons" you could either bluff to hide the fact that you have a dagger, or just say "only got this here pitchfork, which I wasn't plannin' to use as a weapon" without any need to bluff. If there was a hidden zone of truth, one of those guys just got busted, the other didn't.


So only humans raised by taers are ninjas. I see.

No, it was just one possible suggestion for an OP who's looking for a ninja that jumps around and kills things. I'm giving suggestions based on what the OP wants. He wanted someone who jumps around a lot and uses the Ninja Spy PrC. Rogue 2/Unarmed Swordsage 8/Ninja Spy 10 with a few Tiger Claw maneuvers does exactly that. Also, two ranks of Knowledge Local covers the PrCs if you didn't want to be a human in the taers, so that's not really an issue now is it?

JaronK

true_shinken
2011-02-03, 12:16 PM
Except it is the truth. Sense Motive determines if you've told a lie, but you haven't. You really truly are a guy looking for work, and later when the guards question you you really truly are a guy who's just doing his job, and the thing you have to do right now is go shovel that hay over there (or whatever).
Did you even read my response, dude? This is metagaming because you're using D&D's definition of lying (diverging from how lying actually works in the world)to avoid needing ranks in Bluff to lie.



Depends on how thoroughly they search you, obviously. You could do it by hiding the dagger on you, in which case there's a tiny chance they'd find it, or you could do it with your fists, in which case there's no chance. If they ask "are you carrying any weapons" you could either bluff to hide the fact that you have a dagger, or just say "only got this here pitchfork, which I wasn't plannin' to use as a weapon" without any need to bluff. If there was a hidden zone of truth, one of those guys just got busted, the other didn't.
Again with the thing about hiding info without lying. Again - that's clear metagaming. When people hide information, they show it.
Actually, I just checked Sense Motive and I'm surprised this is actually within the powers of the skill - a DC 20 Sense Motive check detects an impostor. Without Disguise and Bluff to cover yourself up, you can't infiltrate anywhere with reasonably good guards.


Also, two ranks of Knowledge Local covers the PrCs if you didn't want to be a human in the taers, so that's not really an issue now is it?

It is since Player's Guide to Faerun revoked that rule. It's been, what, 7 years? Eight?

true_shinken
2011-02-03, 12:22 PM
Except it is the truth. Sense Motive determines if you've told a lie, but you haven't. You really truly are a guy looking for work, and later when the guards question you you really truly are a guy who's just doing his job, and the thing you have to do right now is go shovel that hay over there (or whatever).
First, that's metagaming, because you're stretching what a lie is just to fit within the confines of the Bluff skill.
Second, that's bad metagaming, because DC 20 Sense Motive gets a 'hunch' that detects an impostor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sensemotive.htm).
Third, you're not a guy looking for work, you're ninja going for the kill, so it is indeed a big fat lie.


Depends on how thoroughly they search you, obviously. You could do it by hiding the dagger on you, in which case there's a tiny chance they'd find it, or you could do it with your fists, in which case there's no chance. If they ask "are you carrying any weapons" you could either bluff to hide the fact that you have a dagger, or just say "only got this here pitchfork, which I wasn't plannin' to use as a weapon" without any need to bluff. If there was a hidden zone of truth, one of those guys just got busted, the other didn't.
Again, you need the skills for this, or any reasonably competent dude will detect you as an impostor.


Also, two ranks of Knowledge Local covers the PrCs if you didn't want to be a human in the taers, so that's not really an issue now is it?
Well, it is an issue since 2004, when Player's Guide to Faerun was published and the rule about Knowledge (local) and regional feats was revoked.

Elric VIII
2011-02-03, 12:52 PM
This is actually an interesting argument. Where do you draw the line between a clever person and a clever character? I could definately see an issue with the 18 Cha person running a 3 Cha Orc as a sophisticate, there would definately be a close call of rolls vs RP for the 18 Cha person running an 18 Cha character.

Personally I'm on the side of the rolls, since at it's heart I believe 3.5 is a game about mechanics to support RP (not the other way around). This also evens the playing field with regards to quick-witted players and less adroit ones. Although, a circumstance bonus for good RP is always nice.

JaronK
2011-02-03, 01:55 PM
Did you even read my response, dude? This is metagaming because you're using D&D's definition of lying (diverging from how lying actually works in the world)to avoid needing ranks in Bluff to lie.

Again with the thing about hiding info without lying. Again - that's clear metagaming. When people hide information, they show it.
Actually, I just checked Sense Motive and I'm surprised this is actually within the powers of the skill - a DC 20 Sense Motive check detects an impostor. Without Disguise and Bluff to cover yourself up, you can't infiltrate anywhere with reasonably good guards.

If we're going strictly by the game's rules, it also says that guards are generally Fighters. As such, they don't even have sense motive ranks... or spot ranks. So much for needing more than one level of Rogue to be pretty darn safe here. As such, the Rogue 2/Unarmed Swordsage X/Ninja Spy 10 build I suggested has plenty for what we're talking about, especially when it's a particularly believable lie (such as one where you're stating the actual truth, that you're here to do a job and you've been hired to haul hay or whatever... just leaving out the parts you don't want to state).


It is since Player's Guide to Faerun revoked that rule. It's been, what, 7 years? Eight?

Did it now? Oh well. Yet I haven't seen you suggest any build that actually fits what the OP asked for (a ninja that jumps around and kills stuff). Battle Jump would work if his DM allows such feats (perhaps he'd have to be human from an equivalent region in the campaign world). Without Battle Jump, Swordsage is pretty much the only way to make a guy that jumps around and kills people like the OP asked.


First, that's metagaming, because you're stretching what a lie is just to fit within the confines of the Bluff skill.
Second, that's bad metagaming, because DC 20 Sense Motive gets a 'hunch' that detects an impostor.
Third, you're not a guy looking for work, you're ninja going for the kill, so it is indeed a big fat lie.

I don't think you know what the word metagaming is. Having your character actually be something in addition to who he normally is, instead of just pretending to be something different, as a way of being more believable and harder to catch is a perfectly reasonable in game way of avoiding getting caught. Metagaming would be, I dunno, realizing that your DM really likes the show Leverage and using ideas from that show just because you know the DM would be more likely to let them work.

And you ARE a guy looking for work. You went there specifically to get a job doing basic grunt work that gets you closer to your target. That's the idea here, you are both things. You're not an impostor, you really do have every intention of doing both jobs. Is it lying if you ask me what I'm doing when I'm eating a sandwich and I tell you I'm eating a sandwich, and just fail to tell you I'm at this restaurant in the first place because I've just gotten a new job nearby? No, I just left part out. If I have two jobs, one as a technician and one as a salesman, and when asked my job I only tell the person asking that I'm a technician because I know they're a technician too and we'll relate better, is that also a big fat lie? Same deal, there.

This is the point, you really DO go looking for work. You really DO get a job doing whatever peasant work you can get that gets you reasonably close to your target. You really DO have every intention of doing both jobs. You're not an impostor, and while you do hide something you're not lying at all (this means Zone of Truth won't catch you, which someone relying solely on their ability to lie and bluff will get caught by). And since Fighters (guards) don't actually have sense motive or spot, you don't need many ranks to completely bypass them.

JaronK

Elric VIII
2011-02-03, 02:56 PM
Did it now? Oh well. Yet I haven't seen you suggest any build that actually fits what the OP asked for (a ninja that jumps around and kills stuff). Battle Jump would work if his DM allows such feats (perhaps he'd have to be human from an equivalent region in the campaign world). Without Battle Jump, Swordsage is pretty much the only way to make a guy that jumps around and kills people like the OP asked.

Well, actually, I already have that build. Greenish helped me put it together for a friend in a current campaign (it did use Battle Jump and SS w/ Sudden leap, Shadow Jaunt, etc). I'm trying to make it more stealth-based and less Kung-Fu Movie. Thank you though.

TBH, we usually do away with regional requirements for feats that are largely independent of regional influence. For instance, it is assumed that there's more than one place in the world that has perfected the art of jumping on people. Although things like Magic in the Blood (I think that's the name) still retain the requirements.

pilvento
2011-02-03, 03:12 PM
Did you even read my response, dude? This is metagaming because you're using D&D's definition of lying (diverging from how lying actually works in the world)to avoid needing ranks in Bluff to lie.



Again with the thing about hiding info without lying. Again - that's clear metagaming. When people hide information, they show it.
Actually, I just checked Sense Motive and I'm surprised this is actually within the powers of the skill - a DC 20 Sense Motive check detects an impostor. Without Disguise and Bluff to cover yourself up, you can't infiltrate anywhere with reasonably good guards.


It is since Player's Guide to Faerun revoked that rule. It's been, what, 7 years? Eight?

i read all about how ur discucion ruined the post, and true shinken, u are right there is no need to continue.

back to the post, if u want to be a ninja then go for it, i love the class and the flavor (acrovatics and inbisivility) i cant help ya cause really i have no clue abut the feat u are talking about, but bracers are not a bad idea, in late game we all have lots of gold to spend.

get ninja or rouge, grab skills, be a master of diguisse and thievery, help ur team by geting the mages and ranged enemys first while they hold the line.

for more jumping and disapear/apearing killing machine stuff. get 6 lvls of horizon walker if im right (dungeon master maunual) to get dimensional door at will. then go for teflamar shadowlord (unaprochable east) u can blink in and out the fight and teflamar shadowlord shadowpounce feature lets u make fulll atacks as you do so. teflamar shadowlord gives u some spellcasting like the assasin too.

or just get lvls of swordsage and go play dragon ball z

Greenish
2011-02-03, 03:59 PM
i read all about how ur discucion ruined the post, and true shinken, u are right there is no need to continue.

back to the post, if u want to be a ninja then go for it, i love the class and the flavor (acrovatics and inbisivility) i cant help ya cause really i have no clue abut the feat u are talking about, but bracers are not a bad idea, in late game we all have lots of gold to spend.

get ninja or rouge, grab skills, be a master of diguisse and thievery, help ur team by geting the mages and ranged enemys first while they hold the line.

for more jumping and disapear/apearing killing machine stuff. get 6 lvls of horizon walker if im right (dungeon master maunual) to get dimensional door at will. then go for teflamar shadowlord (unaprochable east) u can blink in and out the fight and teflamar shadowlord shadowpounce feature lets u make fulll atacks as you do so. teflamar shadowlord gives u some spellcasting like the assasin too.

or just get lvls of swordsage and go play dragon ball zUgh, that was painful to read. Anyhow, Telflammar Shadowlord was something he had planned, but it's requirements are truly onerous, which is why the design eventually moved into Pounce & Battle Jump to achieve much of the same effect.

true_shinken
2011-02-03, 04:03 PM
If we're going strictly by the game's rules, it also says that guards are generally Fighters.
Hello, metagaming again.
'Guards don't have Sense Motive, so I don't need Bluff to lie'.
Yeah, right.


Did it now? Oh well. Yet I haven't seen you suggest any build that actually fits what the OP asked for (a ninja that jumps around and kills stuff). Battle Jump would work if his DM allows such feats (perhaps he'd have to be human from an equivalent region in the campaign world). Without Battle Jump, Swordsage is pretty much the only way to make a guy that jumps around and kills people like the OP asked.
Leap Attack.



I don't think you know what the word metagaming is.
Gaming as if your character knows he is in a game. Using knowledge your character doesn't have within the game. That is metagaming. Maybe you don't know what it means.

And you ARE a guy looking for work. You went there specifically to get a job doing basic grunt work that gets you closer to your target.
You're being obtuse on purpose. You are not there to get a 'basic grunt work' if you're actually there to kill someone. Is it so hards to acknowledge you are wrong and a Swordsage can't be a good spy? You even mentioned dipping Rogue/Factotum + Able Learner, fine. But saying 'I don't need skills to be a spy' is just ridiculous.

Same deal, there.
Oversimplifying much?


This is the point, you really DO go looking for work. You really DO get a job doing whatever peasant work you can get that gets you reasonably close to your target. You really DO have every intention of doing both jobs. You're not an impostor, and while you do hide something you're not lying at all (this means Zone of Truth won't catch you, which someone relying solely on their ability to lie and bluff will get caught by). And since Fighters (guards) don't actually have sense motive or spot, you don't need many ranks to completely bypass them.
Your argument relies on 'all guards are Fighters' and this is NOT true in game and NOT something your character could know even if it was true in game. It's at the very least flawed.

Zeful
2011-02-03, 04:50 PM
Except it is the truth. Sense Motive determines if you've told a lie, but you haven't. You really truly are a guy looking for work, and later when the guards question you you really truly are a guy who's just doing his job, and the thing you have to do right now is go shovel that hay over there (or whatever).Lies by omission. For when you know the meaning of what was asked and refuse to tell them the full information you knew they asked for.


Depends on how thoroughly they search you, obviously. You could do it by hiding the dagger on you, in which case there's a tiny chance they'd find it, or you could do it with your fists, in which case there's no chance. If they ask "are you carrying any weapons" you could either bluff to hide the fact that you have a dagger, or just say "only got this here pitchfork, which I wasn't plannin' to use as a weapon" without any need to bluff. If there was a hidden zone of truth, one of those guys just got busted, the other didn't.Um, no. If you have a dagger, and someone asks if you are carrying a weapon any answer that is not "Yes, I am" or some variation thereof requires a Bluff check, period. The bonus the guard gets to sense motive depends on how much your statement is believable. And both guys would be busted by a hidden Zone of Truth.

Greenish
2011-02-03, 05:57 PM
And both guys would be busted by a hidden Zone of Truth.With good enough bluff, one could conceivable be evasive enough to bypass the guards despite the zone (which doesn't prevent the lies by omission).

Affected creatures are aware of this enchantment. Therefore, they may avoid answering questions to which they would normally respond with a lie, or they may be evasive as long as they remain within the boundaries of the truth.

JaronK
2011-02-03, 07:06 PM
Lies by omission. For when you know the meaning of what was asked and refuse to tell them the full information you knew they asked for.

Except the reason I'd be going to that exact place was indeed to do the basic job. It's just that if I get the opportunity (which I'm hoping for) I'm going to divert.


Um, no. If you have a dagger, and someone asks if you are carrying a weapon any answer that is not "Yes, I am" or some variation thereof requires a Bluff check, period. The bonus the guard gets to sense motive depends on how much your statement is believable. And both guys would be busted by a hidden Zone of Truth.

If you have the dagger, you'll be caught. The point was that an unarmed assassin can honestly answer "no, I only have this pitchfork, which I wasn't going to use as a weapon." This is true, because he doesn't need to carry weapons at all. So the unarmed guy who's just got his job tools will NOT be busted, but the ninja with the dagger will (at least in the Zone of Truth scenario).

Personally, I don't buy that Sense Motive lets you figure out every possible ulterior motive. Do guards think you're lying when you say "I'm here to clean the stables" if you actually are, but are planning to use the money to buy a gift for your wife? What if you're doing it because you really like horses and want to get close to them? What if you're doing it because there's this pretty girl you get to see near the stables every day and you're working up the courage to ask her out? What if you're doing it in hopes of seeing someone famous like the prince of the land? What if you're doing it in hopes of seeing the famous prince of the land so that you can teleport over and kill him? What if you're doing it because there's a loan shark out to get you and it's harder for him to get to you when you're on the prince's property?

Exactly how many ulterior motives is Sense Motive supposed to find? By RAW, all you'd get is a Hunch if someone's an impostor... but in this situation, you're not an impostor. You really truly are there doing a job. You just had ulterior motives for taking that job. And it's a DC 20, which the average guard can't make. Evidently, it's Metagaming to note that most guards won't figure this trick out... though really, something like this would be what any decent infiltrator would be trained to do. Having a working strategy isn't metagaming. And it's actually DC 100 to sense surface thoughts... which is what you'd need to know the difference between a guy whose ulterior motive is that he likes horses and one whose ulterior motive is killing someone (so long as he's not actually an impostor). Is it metagaming to figure most guards can't make a DC 100 Sense Motive check?

JaronK

Zeful
2011-02-03, 09:43 PM
Except the reason I'd be going to that exact place was indeed to do the basic job. It's just that if I get the opportunity (which I'm hoping for) I'm going to divert.No the reason you are in that place is to kill someone, should you get the opportunity, that you also happen to have a job there doing something else doesn't change you're primary motivation so you have to make a Bluff check to Lie by omission.


If you have the dagger, you'll be caught. The point was that an unarmed assassin can honestly answer "no, I only have this pitchfork, which I wasn't going to use as a weapon." This is true, because he doesn't need to carry weapons at all. So the unarmed guy who's just got his job tools will NOT be busted, but the ninja with the dagger will (at least in the Zone of Truth scenario).No, it's not, the character knows that his unarmed strikes are weapons and is concealing that fact, he needs to make a Bluff check.


Personally, I don't buy that Sense Motive lets you figure out every possible ulterior motive.It doesn't, it does oppose Bluff though, so it can detect when someone is lying, even through omission.


Exactly how many ulterior motives is Sense Motive supposed to find?You've got it backwards, though. It doesn't find ulterior motives, Bluff, which Sense Motive opposes, hides them.


though really, something like this would be what any decent infiltrator would be trained to do.And most trained Infiltrators would have ranks in Bluff, since their job pretty much revolves around lies.

JaronK
2011-02-03, 10:04 PM
No the reason you are in that place is to kill someone, should you get the opportunity, that you also happen to have a job there doing something else doesn't change you're primary motivation so you have to make a Bluff check to Lie by omission.

You keep saying this like it's an either/or. You're there to do both. If you're smart, you're there to do even more than that... do your job as a peasant, listen in for important information, case the joint for later robbery, get close to the kill target, maybe even make a few contacts and learn more. Do you think you have to say all of that to avoid a lie by omission? At most the guard gets a "hunch" that something might be up. That's all. It's DC 100 to know what's really going on.


No, it's not, the character knows that his unarmed strikes are weapons and is concealing that fact, he needs to make a Bluff check.

He's not carrying any weapons. Heck, if you want, he could say "only my big strong arms!" and it would be a funny joke... but not against the rules. The guards aren't looking to literally disarm people...


You've got it backwards, though. It doesn't find ulterior motives, Bluff, which Sense Motive opposes, hides them.

And most trained Infiltrators would have ranks in Bluff, since their job pretty much revolves around lies.

You think people automatically know all your secrets and you need Bluff to avoid that? Once again, knowing what's actually going on is DC 100. And in a world with Zone of Truth, a trained infiltrator knows it's better not to lie at all. Failing to tell your whole life story isn't going to trigger.

JaronK