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The Rabbler
2011-02-01, 03:09 AM
One of my friends, let's call him Dave, came to our table on Saturday with a druid that he claimed was level 4 while the rest of our party was level 8. He had 4 grey renders following him around and he said that he could control up to 8. He had about the same amount of health as the rest of us (a bit more than I had and I had rolled well with d8s and a high con). The real shocker was that he could break the action economy (for "fluff reasons"); he cast some sort of damage spell (standard action), moved up to an undead (move action), and cast a cure spell (standard action).

now, Dave won't explain what was going on to any of us players but apparently our DM knows exactly what's happening. I've never heard of this before and I'd like to know how he's doing what he's doing because I'm the closest thing we have to a rules lawyer and Dave has a history of making characters while suffering through a fever and consequently making some fairly significant mistakes because of it (ex: persisted wings of flurry)

If it helps, the closest thing that we got to an explanation was that Dave was using some dragon magazine stuff. Also, apparently he's level 4 because our DM had to nerf him pretty hard.

2xMachina
2011-02-01, 03:13 AM
Handle animal abuse.

Homebrewed deal with the devil? I think a 2nd char is possessing/merged with him, so he has double HP, and double actions.

faceroll
2011-02-01, 03:15 AM
My guess is that he's actually a necromancer.

Or a fiend of possession.

The Rabbler
2011-02-01, 03:30 AM
Handle animal abuse.

Homebrewed deal with the devil? I think a 2nd char is possessing/merged with him, so he has double HP, and double actions.

That could explain the grey renders.

Dave made it clear that nothing was homebrewed; only that it was from dragon magazine. I doubt the second, but it's possible.


My guess is that he's actually a necromancer.

Or a fiend of possession.

not sure how a necromancer would break the action economy at our level...

I highly doubt he's a fiend of possession; our characters are level 8. I've never seen a build that could possess people before level 13-ish.

Dust
2011-02-01, 03:45 AM
The list of prestige classes (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dragon_Magazine) found in Dragon doesn't provide many clues, honestly. There's a few I don't recognize and can't find such as the ones that appeared in #287, but otherwise....

I'm not buying the fact that he's a druid, though. Is it possible Dave's a psionic with the Thrallherd (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Thrallherd) PrC? You could min-max a low-level entry into that.

Is he using any blatantly unusual items?

Combat Reflexes
2011-02-01, 03:58 AM
The real shocker was that he could break the action economy (for "fluff reasons"); he cast some sort of damage spell (standard action), moved up to an undead (move action), and cast a cure spell (standard action).

Hmm, there are not a lot of ways to break the action economy.
1. he uses DMM [Quicken] (not likely)
2. he is a Ruby Knight Windicator (even less likely)
3. he has Persisted Celerity on (hit him with the DMG! repeatedly!)
4. he uses Travel Devotion (likely)

I have no dragon magazines, but did they ever publish rules for possession?
also, what race is Dave using? He could some kind of mind flayer-ish controller.


If it helps, the closest thing that we got to an explanation was that Dave was using some dragon magazine stuff.

And that's why all players should bring copies of the materials they used to the table. It won't hurt, and it worked for our group.

Oh, and Handle animal abuse. Even more illegal than animal abuse :smallbiggrin:

Killer Angel
2011-02-01, 05:02 AM
Oh, and Handle animal abuse. Even more illegal than animal abuse :smallbiggrin:

This, the Dragon Magazine, and other stuffs... the player's build is abusive, and sounds like the DM is guilty as well.

Amnestic
2011-02-01, 05:05 AM
Hmm, there are not a lot of ways to break the action economy.
1. he uses DMM [Quicken] (not likely)

I think that's the least likely, since Dave is playing a Druid, who can't Turn/Rebuke Undead as far as I know. :smalltongue:

Combat Reflexes
2011-02-01, 05:11 AM
I think that's the least likely, since Dave is playing a Druid, who can't Turn/Rebuke Undead as far as I know. :smalltongue:

It was just a suggestion :smallsmile: maybe there is some druid acf on the edge of the universe that gets turn undead, or maybe Dave has a level of Exorcist or Cleric. I mentioned it because it's the only way to get quicken at 4th level.

Rawn
2011-02-01, 05:16 AM
For the action economy thing there is also the Belt of Battle, which can give you an extra standard action once per day. Though the price is way outside the WBL at 4th.

SiuiS
2011-02-01, 05:57 AM
For the action economy thing there is also the Belt of Battle, which can give you an extra standard action once per day. Though the price is way outside the WBL at 4th.

Is it? Consider that a feat which grants you a mentor (and a lenient DM, which can actually substitute for a feat) can give you a caster with an artisan feat (-25%) from eberon, an artisan feat from OA (another -25%) and can abuse the section in the back of the DMG to make an item which o ly works for certain classes and certain alignments for an additional reduction (-30% I believe). So we have the ability to make magic items of a certain category for 1/5th the cost. We can also cut the cost on half, because crafting requires less than market price.

WBL and the magic item system are... Flawed.

Swooper
2011-02-01, 06:08 AM
Why grey renders? Is he using a class, acf or feat that lets him control them? I think there was a Dragon magazine that had a grey render ecology article, maybe it had some crunch as well that he could be using.

Jair Barik
2011-02-01, 06:21 AM
Could be he is using a spellcasting variant of the Synad as his race.

theos911
2011-02-01, 06:46 AM
Oh, and Handle animal abuse. Even more illegal than animal abuse :smallbiggrin:

Actually, it can be very fun if worked into a character where it isn't being abused. I have a gnome barbarian named Grobnar. I wanted a naturey themed character for our upcoming campaign. His age cat is old. His stats are 8,8,11,16,14,20 . I don't remember what point buy I used. Since, I wasn't making a melle barbarian, dm let me use more than default 2 flaws. Most of those extras went to making him better with animals and less able to see. At level one, with a tad of wbl altering through backstory(not abused and Dm approved). He has a total +15 mod to handle animal(+17 if he uses his masterwork kit). So, at level 1 he can take 10 and succeed on anything, but pushing an injured animal(so long as he hasn't used his speak with animals racial spell, the dm allows that to be a +2 mod for emergency situations in which my bear/badger is doing something REALLY STUPID). He has a warbeast badger and wb bear (I forget black or brown). He normally needs to use rage to be able to stand up and constantly complains as you would expect an old cranky preachey gnome to do. What was funny was when our drunk monk and fighter couldn't land a hit on the bbeg, my badger was raging and taking massive damage, and my bear was put asleep. I rollled a nat 20 on a charge with my dagger and nearly killed the bbeg.

His feats were
lvl 1 - Flexible Mind(I don't even remember what this one does)
murkey eyed -Animal Afinity
Love of nature -Skill Focus Handle Animal
Frail -Animal Friends(quasi homebrewed/altered version)

btw- anyone know the rules for intoxication?, since our monk isn't a drunken master yet, and we aren't sure how to handle it statwise

tl;dr, and yes kidna offtopic, but funny and enjoyable story

true_shinken
2011-02-01, 06:53 AM
Is it? Consider that a feat which grants you a mentor (and a lenient DM, which can actually substitute for a feat) can give you a caster with an artisan feat (-25%) from eberon, an artisan feat from OA (another -25%) and can abuse the section in the back of the DMG to make an item which o ly works for certain classes and certain alignments for an additional reduction (-30% I believe). So we have the ability to make magic items of a certain category for 1/5th the cost. We can also cut the cost on half, because crafting requires less than market price.

WBL and the magic item system are... Flawed.

Of course they are, when you use guidelines as rules.

SiuiS
2011-02-01, 06:56 AM
Grey renders also have a fluff hook where they will attach to someone and fight on their behalf.

Could be polymorphed animated objects, an advanced form of effigy, undead, or illusions over a different creature.

Also, know that, until you see a character sheet, you don't know if he's really a Druid at all.

Allanimal
2011-02-01, 07:12 AM
btw- anyone know the rules for intoxication?, since our monk isn't a drunken master yet, and we aren't sure how to handle it statwise

Sorry to remain offtopic, but just a note. I could not find it in the rules compendium, but give the penalties of Drink Like a Demon (Drunken Master Class feature) with none of the benefits. I believe it is temporary loss of INT and WIS.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-01, 07:38 AM
1. The druid is his cohort, his character is an ECL 8 Fiend of Possession. He's probably pooling the two characters' HP, or the druid just as a high Con score due to the FoP giving him a +4 to every stat. Old trick, possess your cohort and play it off as though the cohort is your character, do broken stuff and impress the rest of your party.

2. A Fiend of Possession will typically start off as some sort of spellcaster, favorites are Warlock and Psion since they can cast personal-range buffs on whomever they're possessing. The Fiend of Possession casts a damage spell, such as Eldritch Blast or Energy Stun, the Druid then moves up to an undead and casts a cure spell on it. Two separate characters, two sets of actions, but they happen to share one body.

3. The gray renders are clearly Handle Animal abuse. You can't Handle Animal a magical beast with an Int score over 2, but a FoP can possess one and give it a penalty to its Int score with an unlimited duration. Possess a render, penalize its Int, druid trains it with handle animal, go find another render and repeat.

LansXero
2011-02-01, 08:37 AM
1. The druid is his cohort, his character is an ECL 8 Fiend of Possession. He's probably pooling the two characters' HP, or the druid just as a high Con score due to the FoP giving him a +4 to every stat. Old trick, possess your cohort and play it off as though the cohort is your character, do broken stuff and impress the rest of your party.

2. A Fiend of Possession will typically start off as some sort of spellcaster, favorites are Warlock and Psion since they can cast personal-range buffs on whomever they're possessing. The Fiend of Possession casts a damage spell, such as Eldritch Blast or Energy Stun, the Druid then moves up to an undead and casts a cure spell on it. Two separate characters, two sets of actions, but they happen to share one body.

3. The gray renders are clearly Handle Animal abuse. You can't Handle Animal a magical beast with an Int score over 2, but a FoP can possess one and give it a penalty to its Int score with an unlimited duration. Possess a render, penalize its Int, druid trains it with handle animal, go find another render and repeat.

So thats why he said he could get 4 more, up to a total of 8? (to match with the fiend's ECL I guess?)

Combat Reflexes
2011-02-01, 10:10 AM
Sorry to remain offtopic, but just a note. I could not find it in the rules compendium, but give the penalties of Drink Like a Demon (Drunken Master Class feature) with none of the benefits. I believe it is temporary loss of INT and WIS.

To end the offtopicness: alcohol is a poison (don't remember the DC) that deals 1d3 Dex and Wis damage, IIRC.

Leon
2011-02-01, 10:12 AM
Sounds like a Beast Heart Adept that has been picked apart of the best bits and re-cobbled at a lower level.

Grey Renders are one of the top level of companions choices with a -8 to level.

Whatever it is tho seems it sounds the DM is in on the plan and everyone else is relegated to the dark

Choco
2011-02-01, 10:31 AM
Now, the gray renders thing I can probably explain.

He says he can control up to 8, which is doable if he has 26-27 Charisma. He claims to be lvl 4 but his ECL is likely 8, I bet he has a template/race that gives a CHA boost.

How? Why, Render Bait!

It's a necklace in Savage Species, costs 35,640g too, which is quite a lot for an ECL 8 char. The important part is: "The wearer may bond with a number of renders that fail their save equal to his Charisma bonus (if any)"

Combat Reflexes
2011-02-01, 10:41 AM
Now, the gray renders thing I can probably explain.

He says he can control up to 8, which is doable if he has 26-27 Charisma. He claims to be lvl 4 but his ECL is likely 8, I bet he has a template/race that gives a CHA boost.

How? Why, Render Bait!

It's a necklace in Savage Species, costs 35,640g too, which is quite a lot for an ECL 8 char. The important part is: "The wearer may bond with a number of renders that fail their save equal to his Charisma bonus (if any)"

Now, remember the Artisan feats - The druid is a fiend of possession that has crafted himself a Render Bait necklace. Gentlemen, we have a match!

theos911
2011-02-01, 10:52 AM
To end the offtopicness: alcohol is a poison (don't remember the DC) that deals 1d3 Dex and Wis damage, IIRC.
That sounds about right! Thank you much.

lord_khaine
2011-02-01, 11:18 AM
Wow, that was some pretty impressive rule abuse, and even more impressive that people could figure it out from so little information.

FMArthur
2011-02-01, 11:20 AM
Wow, that was some pretty impressive rule abuse, and even more impressive that people could figure it out from so little information.
This. I am in awe of you guys.

MeeposFire
2011-02-01, 11:25 AM
There are only a few ways of making something like this work. The reason it took as long as it did was because it was dragon material and la lot of people do not know dragon material

Still you are right it was very impressive good job everybody.

So OP gonna tell the druid out of game you know his secret?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-02-01, 11:33 AM
So OP gonna tell the druid out of game you know his secret?

Probably best to address this to the player and the DM. There's some serious abuse going on here, given the power of the rest of the party compared to this single character, and that's never a good thing to have at a table. Add to that the fact that Dragon Magazine material has a reputation for being...um...sporadically balanced (and that's the best I can say about it), and I'd say this is an issue that needs addressing.

kenjigoku
2011-02-01, 11:39 AM
now, Dave won't explain what was going on to any of us players but apparently our DM knows exactly what's happening.

This caught my attention. Dave may simply be a plot device for your DM. Let it roll for awhile and see if it is. If it still seems that he is just there to break the game tell your DM that your not having any fun. If he cares at all your DM will inform you at that point that Dave is a plot device. If it turns out he is just letting Dave cheat, then beg to play pun pun or find a new DM.

Asheram
2011-02-01, 11:40 AM
This is... Quite impressive. Both over the abitiy to find all of this, and the mind to come up with this abuse in the first place...

What DM allowed this? I'm surprised I don't smell the limburger from here.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-01, 11:41 AM
If the character came in at ECL 8, and the Druid is level 4, his Fiend of Possession probably has six class levels with a +2 LA. Level adjustment doesn't affect your cohort's max level, which explains why the Druid is 4th instead of 6th. Since the FoP is possessing the Druid and the Druid is wearing the item, he's probably stacking the two characters' Cha bonuses for how many renders he could have. Something like a Cha 22 FoP and a Cha 14 Druid would be easy to accomplish.

He could have the feat Mercantile Background if FR regional feats are allowed, which would have allowed him to buy it at 75% of cost, putting it just barely within ECL 8 WBL. He also could have just pooled the two characters' wealth to buy that, but it would still be a little bit over budget. It's entirely possible that the Render Bait is an Item Familiar, so it would have started as something like an Amulet of Natural Armor +1 and then he upgraded it to what it currently is for half cost, since you don't need to meet any of the prerequisites to upgrade an item familiar.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-02-01, 11:42 AM
This caught my attention. Dave may simply be a plot device for your DM. Let it roll for awhile and see if it is. If it still seems that he is just there to break the game tell your DM that your not having any fun. If he cares at all your DM will inform you at that point that Dave is a plot device. If it turns out he is just letting Dave cheat, then beg to play pun pun or find a new DM.

Fiend of Possession as a plot device is fine, and well within standard DMing boundaries. Using the class to give a player extra actions, an army of Gray Renders, and generally much more power than the rest of the party generally isn't alright, even in the name of plot.

The Rabbler
2011-02-01, 01:23 PM
wow, a lot got done since last night. looks like the consensus calls this handle animal abuse with a fiend of possession possessing his cohort (probably leadership), though that thing about the render necklace also sounds plausible.

Which is why I'm sorry to have to say this, but my first post was flawed. I couldn't remember at the time of posting what his first standard action was, but now I do remember that it was a rebuke undead attempt. with a roll of 17, he was able to frighten (terrify?) three of the sample evolved template wraiths from Libris Mortis.

This is probably just another ability that his fiend of possession had, but I neglected to include it and for that I apologize.

Also, last night he skyped me "nigh-infinite epic leadership, level 7." our conversation ended with me showing him the rockburst and streamers spells from Shining South, but that first part might have been a hint.

Is it possible to achieve epic leadership by level 7? I thought the only way to do something like that was with a dragonwrought kobold pretending to be a dragon.

again, I'm sorry to pull more information out of my hat after you guys have done all of this reverse-engineering.


EDIT: RUSH OF PERSPECTIVE! he also mentioned that he wouldn't explain what he was until the campaign ended or he started dying. This is sounding more and more like a FoP.



Fiend of Possession as a plot device is fine, and well within standard DMing boundaries. Using the class to give a player extra actions, an army of Gray Renders, and generally much more power than the rest of the party generally isn't alright, even in the name of plot.

"it's for fluff purposes." :smallwink:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-02-01, 01:27 PM
Is it possible to achieve epic leadership by level 7? I thought the only way to do something like that was with a dragonwrought kobold pretending to be a dragon.

Short of the somewhat suspect dragonwrought kobold, you can't get Epic Leadership without being...well...Epic level. There may be 1-2 other tricks to snag it earlier, but they'd all require Pun-pun levels of fine aged Gouda.


EDIT: RUSH OF PERSPECTIVE! he also mentioned that he wouldn't explain what he was until the campaign ended or he started dying. This is sounding more and more like a FoP.

Yep. Something sneaky is going on. That said, I still think you, he, the party, and the DM need to sit down and discuss relative power issues, as I doubt you'd have brought this to the forum if you weren't concerned about the level of balance.

sonofzeal
2011-02-01, 01:29 PM
Yeah, my money's on Possession. Also possible DM plottery. If your DM is fully informed, and smirking, go with it. If it's seriously making the game not fun, or the DM seems frustrated, start having conversations with them. But otherwise... you've got to believe the DM has a plan.

The Rabbler
2011-02-01, 01:52 PM
Yeah, my money's on Possession. Also possible DM plottery. If your DM is fully informed, and smirking, go with it. If it's seriously making the game not fun, or the DM seems frustrated, start having conversations with them. But otherwise... you've got to believe the DM has a plan.

Our DM knows exactly what's going on but isn't smirking. I think he was a little unhappy about the breaking of the action economy, but I think it's mostly because he doesn't know how to do it.

Dave and I are the only members of the group who have a forum-level of d&d knowledge. Our DM knows of some crazy things that wizards can do (his favorite class) but he hasn't looked through the spell compendium and had never heard of... say... incantatrix or planar shepherd. The rest of the party has minimal knowledge, excluding a couple of people who very rarely play with us. We have one player who loves monks and not fighting (she'll pick olives off of a nearby olive tree while the rest of the party is fighting), one who thinks sorcerers are the best class in the game because they can "blast people's faces off more times per day than a wizard and they don't have to prepare spells," another who loves fighters and rogues (no UMD), one that loves ninjas and monks, and finally one who doesn't really care what he plays.

now that I've explained how my group works (yea, It's kinda large) I'm the only one who really understands how overpowered what Dave has done is. Our DM said that we'd find out eventually (probably going to have monsters target him so that the druid dies) but I'm not so sure that Dave will let his druid die without putting up quite a fight. So far, (only three encounters in) Dave has been squishing encounters; though, to be fair, two of the three involved undead.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that everything you all have figured out so far is completely wrong and that all of this came from a very poorly worded and even worse-ly interpreted ability from a dragon magazine somewhere. This is the same player who thought that he was allied with himself so that he could use the incantatrix's early-on ability to metamagic his own spells. He also thought that he could metamagic his own instantaneous spells (this was early enough into the class that he actually couldn't do these things. levels 1-2 incantatrix, I believe.).

kestrel404
2011-02-01, 02:17 PM
Because of the FoP's Hide Presence class feature, figuring out that the Druid is possessed by an FoP is pretty tough.

You could attempt a meta-game solution to the problem by casting Magic Circle against Evil on yourself and repeatedly walking up to and away from the Druid - if the PC or GM rolls a die every time you do, it means that they're 'hiding' from the effect of the circle. If not, it could mean that their hide skill is high enough that they auto-pass the skill check, or that the GM/player isn't bothering with the roll - not a useful piece of data.

You could cast Dismissal on the Druid. The PC would only have to roll a will save if they were actually possessed. This is rather mean, though, since if they fail that save they end up stuck on another plane. Use this if they get really bad.

Finally, you could have someone with a couple ranks in search take 20 to examine the druid's armor and weapon. If the fiend is using their magic item class feature to enhance either one, then a DC 25 search check will reveal 'something strange' about the item.

Combat Reflexes
2011-02-01, 03:07 PM
Which is why I'm sorry to have to say this, but my first post was flawed. I couldn't remember at the time of posting what his first standard action was, but now I do remember that it was a rebuke undead attempt.

I'm trying not to say 'Told you so!'... argh, it didn't work. Never mind.

This whole 'fluff & plot device' smells like fiend of possession. And a bit Gouda:smalltongue:

His FoP is probably cleric. Or paladin (of Tyranny/Slaughter) and if so, check for nightsticks/reliquary holy symbols. If he possesses any of them, run! He is a DMM'er.

Your response could be: metagame back!
cast Detect Thoughts on him and have another party member whisper in his ear: "I know of your dark secret". There is no way that Daves character could NOT be thinking about his dark secret, and voíla, answers!.

Cast Protection from Evil and ask for a hug :smallsmile: if he refuses, he's a demon! Hit him with the DMG! (or the MM, whichever is closer. DMG is heavier though.)

And the metagamiest way: let him say 'I'm a perfectly normal human druid' a 100 times and see if the player or the DM is rolling dice. Those are Bluff checks.

Choco
2011-02-01, 03:41 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that everything you all have figured out so far is completely wrong and that all of this came from a very poorly worded and even worse-ly interpreted ability from a dragon magazine somewhere. This is the same player who thought that he was allied with himself so that he could use the incantatrix's early-on ability to metamagic his own spells. He also thought that he could metamagic his own instantaneous spells (this was early enough into the class that he actually couldn't do these things. levels 1-2 incantatrix, I believe.).

I am willing to bet THAT is the exact reason why he wants to keep it all hidden from you until he is done with that character one way or another.

The Rabbler
2011-02-01, 03:42 PM
I'm trying not to say 'Told you so!'... argh, it didn't work. Never mind.

This whole 'fluff & plot device' smells like fiend of possession. And a bit Gouda:smalltongue:

His FoP is probably cleric. Or paladin (of Tyranny/Slaughter) and if so, check for nightsticks/reliquary holy symbols. If he possesses any of them, run! He is a DMM'er.

Your response could be: metagame back!
cast Detect Thoughts on him and have another party member whisper in his ear: "I know of your dark secret". There is no way that Daves character could NOT be thinking about his dark secret, and voíla, answers!.

Cast Protection from Evil and ask for a hug :smallsmile: if he refuses, he's a demon! Hit him with the DMG! (or the MM, whichever is closer. DMG is heavier though.)

And the metagamiest way: let him say 'I'm a perfectly normal human druid' a 100 times and see if the player or the DM is rolling dice. Those are Bluff checks.

we're lax enough that we usually don't make those kinds of rolls (and we'd probably ignore something as trivial as that). Also, I'm playing a ranger/MoMF. I don't have any spells that'd really help us on this. And our only caster is a blasty psion (kineticist?) (besides the druid, that is).

any other ideas?

EDIT:



Finally, you could have someone with a couple ranks in search take 20 to examine the druid's armor and weapon. If the fiend is using their magic item class feature to enhance either one, then a DC 25 search check will reveal 'something strange' about the item.

druid. with gray renders. why bother with weapons or armor?

Kaww
2011-02-01, 03:48 PM
Try Savage Species pg. 39 bottom left corner. :smallwink:

Waker
2011-02-01, 03:50 PM
druid. with gray renders. why bother with weapons or armor?
If it is a Fiend of Possession, it's ability to Hide and ignore the effects of magic that targets it alignment is based on Intelligence, so this character might be wearing a magical item to boost it's Int score. Which would be a dead giveaway, since a Druid would be using a Wis item.

Douglas
2011-02-01, 03:54 PM
This is the same player who thought that he was allied with himself so that he could use the incantatrix's early-on ability to metamagic his own spells.
Being your own ally actually is a generally accepted way of how things work in 3.5. The real reason Incantatrix can't use Cooperative Metamagic on his own spells is the action cost.

The Rabbler
2011-02-01, 03:56 PM
Try Savage Species pg. 39 bottom left corner. :smallwink:

... Roll With It?

I see what you did there.:smallamused:


If it is a Fiend of Possession, it's ability to Hide and ignore the effects of magic that targets it alignment is based on Intelligence, so this character might be wearing a magical item to boost it's Int score. Which would be a dead giveaway, since a Druid would be using a Wis item.

he rolled very good, an 18 and two 16s. If he is a FoP, I doubt he'd actually need a stat item; especially at ECL 8.


Being your own ally actually is a generally accepted way of how things work in 3.5. The real reason Incantatrix can't use Cooperative Metamagic on his own spells is the action cost.

IMO, Cooperative Metamagic only works on other players, otherwise there would be no point in having another class feature specifically stating that you can enhance your own magical effects.

The crazy part about that was supposed to be that he could enhance his own instantaneous spells as he was casting them. Which you can do, but not until around level 7 in the class.

Kaww
2011-02-01, 04:05 PM
whoops, double post. My bad.

Unrelated: When you EDIT your post you can select to delete it.

Waker
2011-02-01, 04:11 PM
he rolled very good, an 18 and two 16s. If he is a FoP, I doubt he'd actually need a stat item; especially at ECL 8.
Wait, you actually have seen his stats or did he tell you OOC?

RagnaroksChosen
2011-02-01, 04:11 PM
.
IMO, Cooperative Metamagic only works on other players, otherwise there would be no point in having another class feature specifically stating that you can enhance your own magical effects.

The crazy part about that was supposed to be that he could enhance his own instantaneous spells as he was casting them. Which you can do, but not until around level 7 in the class.

In 3.5 you counted as an allie. It doesn't work on your self simply because of the action cost... it costs a ready/standard action to cast it. You can't have a 2 standard actions go off at once(assuming you found a way to get another action).


On topic... I would drop the druid thing... I would honestly toss out any thing the guy says... Have you seen his character sheet?
Also FOP deffiently sounds like an option. With every thing people are saying it does sound like this is plausable... even with out liberal use of WBL.

Douglas
2011-02-01, 04:13 PM
IMO, Cooperative Metamagic only works on other players, otherwise there would be no point in having another class feature specifically stating that you can enhance your own magical effects.
Cooperative Metamagic does only work on other characters, you are completely correct about that, I'm just saying that you have the reason wrong. Inspire Courage, Bless, Prayer, and many various other "buff allies" effects do work on the user. The reason Cooperative Metamagic can't be used on your own spells is that it would require you to simultaneously have a readied action and cast a spell. The rules for readied actions make this impossible, as the act of casting the spell would negate the readied action.


The crazy part about that was supposed to be that he could enhance his own instantaneous spells as he was casting them. Which you can do, but not until around level 7 in the class.
The really special thing about Instant Metamagic is that it negates metamagic cost with no check and no limit and does it spontaneously.

The Rabbler
2011-02-01, 04:13 PM
Unrelated: When you EDIT your post you can select to delete it.

I'm aware, but I don't generally like to hide my mistakes.


Wait, you actually have seen his stats or did he tell you OOC?

he was bragging about them during character creation.




On topic... I would drop the druid thing... I would honestly toss out any thing the guy says... Have you seen his character sheet?
Also FOP deffiently sounds like an option. With every thing people are saying it does sound like this is plausable... even with out liberal use of WBL.

I've seen his druid character sheet. I know that he has a level 4 druid. What I saw though was just base stats, saves, health, and spells. No racial features, no class features, no skills, and no feats. Though I had looked at it about an hour before the game started and he said he hadn't finished writing things in.



Cooperative Metamagic does only work on other characters, you are completely correct about that, I'm just saying that you have the reason wrong. Inspire Courage, Bless, Prayer, and many various other "buff allies" effects do work on the user. The reason Cooperative Metamagic can't be used on your own spells is that it would require you to simultaneously have a readied action and cast a spell. The rules for readied actions make this impossible, as the act of casting the spell would negate the readied action.

I guess I don't fully understand incantatrix then. I'll have to read over the class in full at some point. thanks for the clarification though.



The really special thing about Instant Metamagic is that it negates metamagic cost with no check and no limit and does it spontaneously.

I thought it at least required a spellcraft check. I really should read through stuff before debating it :smallwink:.

lord_khaine
2011-02-01, 05:41 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that everything you all have figured out so far is completely wrong and that all of this came from a very poorly worded and even worse-ly interpreted ability from a dragon magazine somewhere. This is the same player who thought that he was allied with himself so that he could use the incantatrix's early-on ability to metamagic his own spells. He also thought that he could metamagic his own instantaneous spells (this was early enough into the class that he actually couldn't do these things. levels 1-2 incantatrix, I believe.).

I gotta say, after doing something like this he really shouldnt be allowed to keep something secret, considering his poor ability to interprent d&d rules.

The Rabbler
2011-02-01, 05:43 PM
I gotta say, after doing something like this he really shouldnt be allowed to keep something secret, considering his poor ability to interprent d&d rules.

I certainly wouldn't let him, but I'm not the DM.:smallannoyed:

Waker
2011-02-01, 05:54 PM
I've seen his druid character sheet. I know that he has a level 4 druid. What I saw though was just base stats, saves, health, and spells. No racial features, no class features, no skills, and no feats. Though I had looked at it about an hour before the game started and he said he hadn't finished writing things in.
Did you just look over his shoulder and see this? He may have intentionally allowed you to see his sheet while it was "incomplete" so that you would think he was playing a druid. This would be a feint, while his actual character the FoP (assuming the guess is right) had already been completed and put somewhere else.

Akal Saris
2011-02-01, 06:32 PM
Just a hunch, but if he's a FoP, then he might also have psion levels, since psions can take actions while also possessing somebody.

With a psion and enough feats to throw away, you can build a ludicrous Russian doll scheme of your crystals taking obtain psicrystal and improved psicrystal for increasingly higher psicrystals that then take obtain and improved psicrystal. Eventually as part of this infinite loop, one of your psicrystals will be high enough level to take epic leadership. Just one guess to his post there.

But my REAL suspicion is that the player doesn't actually understand game rules and is actually far weaker than he thinks he is. I see this quite frequently among the 'power gamers' I play with.

On a sidenote, one of my PCs plays a Fiend of Possession. It's maybe her first "optimized" character, and she's absolutely in love with it. So I have to spend a lot of time thinking about how to challenge a FoP on top of the party's gish, ubercharger, and nigh-undetectable warlock.

Waker
2011-02-01, 07:08 PM
He could be an Intelligent Item. An intelligent item could meet all the mental requirements to be a character and since it can activate it's own abilities, that could explain the multiple actions in a round. And since the DM knows what this player is, that could explain how he would be allowed such a silly thing.

Not sure why I didn't think of this before.

The Rabbler
2011-02-01, 07:47 PM
Did you just look over his shoulder and see this? He may have intentionally allowed you to see his sheet while it was "incomplete" so that you would think he was playing a druid. This would be a feint, while his actual character the FoP (assuming the guess is right) had already been completed and put somewhere else.

he showed us his character sheet (the druid one) and was/is open about it. Not so sure that he doesn't have another sheet though.


He could be an Intelligent Item. An intelligent item could meet all the mental requirements to be a character and since it can activate it's own abilities, that could explain the multiple actions in a round. And since the DM knows what this player is, that could explain how he would be allowed such a silly thing.

Not sure why I didn't think of this before.

Thats... a really good point.



Just a hunch, but if he's a FoP, then he might also have psion levels, since psions can take actions while also possessing somebody.

With a psion and enough feats to throw away, you can build a ludicrous Russian doll scheme of your crystals taking obtain psicrystal and improved psicrystal for increasingly higher psicrystals that then take obtain and improved psicrystal. Eventually as part of this infinite loop, one of your psicrystals will be high enough level to take epic leadership. Just one guess to his post there.

But my REAL suspicion is that the player doesn't actually understand game rules and is actually far weaker than he thinks he is. I see this quite frequently among the 'power gamers' I play with.

I hope he isn't doing this.



On a sidenote, one of my PCs plays a Fiend of Possession. It's maybe her first "optimized" character, and she's absolutely in love with it. So I have to spend a lot of time thinking about how to challenge a FoP on top of the party's gish, ubercharger, and nigh-undetectable warlock.

ouch.

Waker
2011-02-02, 01:53 AM
he showed us his character sheet (the druid one) and was/is open about it. Not so sure that he doesn't have another sheet though.
He is willing to show you his druid even now? I can almost guarantee (because nothing is ever 100%) that this is a bluff then. I mean you said it yourself

EDIT: RUSH OF PERSPECTIVE! he also mentioned that he wouldn't explain what he was until the campaign ended or he started dying. This is sounding more and more like a FoP.
How can he show you his character sheet without whatever hijinks he's up to being visible? The Druid is a cohort and his real character is either a FoP, Intelligent Item or something similar.

While I was writing this post I came to realize what a third option may be.
Thrall of Demogorgon
Requirements: Chaotic Evil, BAB +4, Knowledge (Religion) 2, Knowledge (The Planes) 4, Knowledge (any) 2, Thrall to Demon (Demogorgon), Willing Deformity, Special: Cast 1st level spells or sneak attack +1d6.
I won't go into all the details but at fourth level you get Dual Actions where 2/day you can take two full rounds worth of actions in one round. The requirements are fairly easy to meet, the thing I can't immediately answer is how to get all of them by ECL 4 so you can get to the fourth level of the class. Oh well, something to ponder.

Jarian
2011-02-02, 01:59 AM
With a psion and enough feats to throw away, you can build a ludicrous Russian doll scheme of your crystals taking obtain psicrystal and improved psicrystal for increasingly higher psicrystals that then take obtain and improved psicrystal. Eventually as part of this infinite loop, one of your psicrystals will be high enough level to take epic leadership. Just one guess to his post there.

Psicrystal Affinity requires manifester level 1st or higher. How are you getting a manifester level on your psicrystals?

/offtopic

senrath
2011-02-02, 02:42 AM
While I was writing this post I came to realize what a third option may be.
Thrall of Demogorgon
Requirements: Chaotic Evil, BAB +4, Knowledge (Religion) 2, Knowledge (The Planes) 4, Knowledge (any) 2, Thrall to Demon (Demogorgon), Willing Deformity, Special: Cast 1st level spells or sneak attack +1d6.
I won't go into all the details but at fourth level you get Dual Actions where 2/day you can take two full rounds worth of actions in one round. The requirements are fairly easy to meet, the thing I can't immediately answer is how to get all of them by ECL 4 so you can get to the fourth level of the class. Oh well, something to ponder.

I believe a Duskblade can fulfill all of those requirements quite easily by ECL 4.

Waker
2011-02-02, 02:48 AM
I believe a Duskblade can fulfill all of those requirements quite easily by ECL 4.
True, but he said that the character in question used Rebuke Undead. And since he's ECL 8, that would rule out a Paladin 4/Thrall 4 since Paladins (variants included) don't get casting until 5.

Jarian
2011-02-02, 02:48 AM
I believe a Duskblade can fulfill all of those requirements quite easily by ECL 4.

Though that still leaves the question of why - and how - he'd try to pass off a Duskblade as a Druid.

TroubleBrewing
2011-02-02, 03:09 AM
Oh, he's not, though. He's possessing the druid. No "passing off" involved.

2xMachina
2011-02-02, 03:30 AM
Psicrystal Affinity requires manifester level 1st or higher. How are you getting a manifester level on your psicrystals?

/offtopic

Feat: Hidden talent. Get Manifester lvl 1 along with 1PP and 1 power.

Also, Incantatrix works nicely with Schism. My 2nd mind readies action to metamagic the spell I cast.

Jarian
2011-02-02, 03:36 AM
Feat: Hidden talent. Get Manifester lvl 1 along with 1PP and 1 power.

That's not how Hidden Talent works though. Hidden Talent treats you as a 1st level manifester when manifesting that one power, but does not give you a manifester level of your own. That's why I was curious, since I thought everyone knew that trick was bunk, and must have come up with something else.


Oh, he's not, though. He's possessing the druid. No "passing off" involved.

That was a discussion regarding Thrall to Demogorgon, not Fiend of Possession, unless I missed something incredibly obvious.

Combat Reflexes
2011-02-02, 03:48 AM
Ok let me get this straight. Daves character could be a

Cleric/Paladin/Psion FoP with a Cleric/Druid/Duskblade/Paladin/Thrall of Demogorgon cohort.

I don't believe the Druid thing, actually. Does he behave like a druid? Does he wear metal items? Protects trees? Speaks Druidic etc.
To make sure he is not making this up, you could check his feat list for Leadership, and his known languages for Druidic. Every druid knows druidic.

The gray renders are either charmed/dominated, handle animal abuse or Render baited, because Beast Heart Adept is very unlikely: the FoP could only take one level in it (5 lvls to gain 8 ranks in Handle Animal). They could also just follow the druid around like the MM fluff says, but that would be extreme DM fiat. Maybe they are illusions of some sort.

The Rabbler
2011-02-02, 04:24 AM
That's not how Hidden Talent works though. Hidden Talent treats you as a 1st level manifester when manifesting that one power, but does not give you a manifester level of your own. That's why I was curious, since I thought everyone knew that trick was bunk, and must have come up with something else.


well, you can still do the trick, but with less psicrystals and more leadership. get a character of level 3 to get psicrystal and improved psicrystal 3(I think) times. that psicrystal is now effectively three levels higher than you. have that psicrystal get leadership. it gets cohort two levels lower than it. The cohort gets a psicrystal and 3x improved psicrystal etc. repeat until you're in epic levels.



I don't believe the Druid thing, actually. Does he behave like a druid? Does he wear metal items? Protects trees? Speaks Druidic etc.
To make sure he is not making this up, you could check his feat list for Leadership, and his known languages for Druidic. Every druid knows druidic.

The gray renders are either charmed/dominated, handle animal abuse or Render baited, because Beast Heart Adept is very unlikely: the FoP could only take one level in it (5 lvls to gain 8 ranks in Handle Animal). They could also just follow the druid around like the MM fluff says, but that would be extreme DM fiat. Maybe they are illusions of some sort.

We JUST started our campaign and only had enough time for a few encounters. We haven't gotten into any roleplaying yet and I haven't gotten a chance to see if he actually did fill in any of the blanks on his druid character sheet.

JamesonCourage
2011-02-02, 04:32 AM
well, you can still do the trick, but with less psicrystals and more leadership. get a character of level 3 to get psicrystal and improved psicrystal 3(I think) times. that psicrystal is now effectively three levels higher than you. have that psicrystal get leadership. it gets cohort two levels lower than it. The cohort gets a psicrystal and 3x improved psicrystal etc. repeat until you're in epic levels.



We JUST started our campaign and only had enough time for a few encounters. We haven't gotten into any roleplaying yet and I haven't gotten a chance to see if he actually did fill in any of the blanks on his druid character sheet.

I know it may not be the case for most people, but the fact that you had time for a few encounters and no roleplaying is baffling to me.

lord_khaine
2011-02-02, 09:16 AM
I know it may not be the case for most people, but the fact that you had time for a few encounters and no roleplaying is baffling to me.

Really?

I allways start my adventures with a few encounters of adjustable difficulty, it makes it so much easyer to plan the following ones when you have an idea about what your party can handle.

Greenish
2011-02-02, 09:43 AM
Paladins (variants included) don't get casting until 5.:smallconfused: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm)

[Edit]:
Speaks Druidic etc.How'd you know whether he genuinely speaks druidic or just spouts gibberish? It's a secret language, after all.


To make sure he is not making this up, you could check his feat list for Leadership, and his known languages for Druidic. Every druid knows druidic.If you had access to his character sheet, you could just look at what class he is. :smallamused:

ka_bna
2011-02-02, 01:32 PM
The gray renders are either charmed/dominated, handle animal abuse or Render baited, because Beast Heart Adept is very unlikely: the FoP could only take one level in it (5 lvls to gain 8 ranks in Handle Animal). They could also just follow the druid around like the MM fluff says, but that would be extreme DM fiat. Maybe they are illusions of some sort.

About illusions: maybe the grey renders are illusions? Have they hit anything, or made any sound? At level 4, it would be 8 10ft cubes. Grey renders are large, so they occupy 10ft squares. If you argue it right or misinterpret sizes, you could say 1 gray render = 1 10ft cube. That way, you could say you could "control" up to 8 gray renders aka 8 10ft cubes.*

* Flaws, which may be attributed to reading the rules wrong, are: duration is concentration (psicrystal-tricks?) and the spell creates one figment, not 8 seperate figments, though you could create the illusion of 8 grey renders holding hands.

Corronchilejano
2011-02-02, 01:34 PM
* Flaws, which may be attributed to reading the rules wrong, are: duration is concentration (psicrystal-tricks?) and the spell creates one figment, not 8 seperate figments, though you could create the illusion of 8 grey renders holding hands.

Or 8 grey renders and empty space between them?

2xMachina
2011-02-02, 01:38 PM
Why do that though? It's useless that way. Might as well invest in some Handle Animal, and tame a few. That's much easier, and better. Druids do that well too, IIRC.

Waker
2011-02-02, 01:39 PM
he showed us his character sheet (the druid one) and was/is open about it. Not so sure that he doesn't have another sheet though.

If you had access to his character sheet, you could just look at what class he is.
He is willing to show his character sheet now apparently. As I said however, this is most likely his cohort, while his real sheet is somewhere else.

We can debate about possibilities for quite awhile, but we aren't going to be able to narrow it any further without more information. We either are going to need a description of more actions taken or his gear.

Greenish
2011-02-02, 01:41 PM
Druids do that well too, IIRC.Gray Renders can't normally be trained by Handle Animal. You'll have to apply a (long-duration) penalty to their int first.

2xMachina
2011-02-02, 02:28 PM
Why? Special feature? Magical Beasts can be trained, but it's hard to (DC 30+ or 40+)

Some skill check abuse... and you'd get that. Though, there's no reason why he's limited to just 8, so it's probably not that.

Combat Reflexes
2011-02-02, 02:35 PM
Gray Renders can't normally be trained by Handle Animal. You'll have to apply a (long-duration) penalty to their int first.

Easy enough. Dave misreads the Persist Spell feat and casts DMM Persist Bestow Curse/Ray of stupidity/Touch of idiocy on a gray render.

Also: if Dave does possess two character sheets, he HAS to bring them both to the table (unless he has a really good memory) because he needs to know the stats, abilities and features of the FoP part.

EDIT: a nonpersisted bestow curse should do the trick quite well - it has a duration of permanent.

Greenish
2011-02-02, 02:44 PM
Why? Special feature?Yes. Namely, int 3.

Creatures with int 1-2 can be trained by Handle Animal, but the ones with consciousness (int 3+) can't.

2xMachina
2011-02-02, 11:40 PM
Hmm, I thought the epic handle animal works, but it seems magical beast are not necessarily 3+.

The Rabbler
2011-02-03, 12:01 AM
I'll keep you guys updated as to what happens on Saturday, to see if anything that happens might give him away.

Also, he'd never heard of the fiend of possession (I asked him and had to show him what it was from). I'm pretty sure that it's something from a dragon magazine (at least, that's what he made it sound like).

finally, the gray renders were not illusions. At least one wasn't. It hit a monster very hard.

Coidzor
2011-02-03, 12:24 AM
Of course they are, when you use guidelines as rules.

What? :smallconfused: He wasn't talking about custom items, he was talking about the cost reduction feats and the given market prices of existing items.

The Rabbler
2011-02-03, 12:32 AM
What? :smallconfused: He wasn't talking about custom items, he was talking about the cost reduction feats and the given market prices of existing items.

Actually he was talking about custom items. The custom item he was referring to was using the guidelines for item creation and choosing a specific class and race (both lowering the value of an item by some %) and using that to reduce the cost of creation of a <insert name of gray render controller here> by a lot.

SiuiS
2011-02-03, 02:03 AM
Actually he was talking about custom items. The custom item he was referring to was using the guidelines for item creation and choosing a specific class and race (both lowering the value of an item by some %) and using that to reduce the cost of creation of a <insert name of gray render controller here> by a lot.

You are both correct. The feats and self-crafting can reduce an item to 25% total cost. If in league with the DM, one can drop this as low as 5% (though I can't remember where the extra -5% comes from right now) and, given that the player in question has both full DM commission and tenuous rule-understanding; combining the two and taking anything in a book as gospel could easily lead to this.

Occam's razor however suggests that FoP is indeed the best choice, followed by an intelligent item.

Personally, I want to play an intelligent, living spell. That'll show em!

Asheram
2011-02-03, 03:52 AM
You are both correct. The feats and self-crafting can reduce an item to 25% total cost. If in league with the DM, one can drop this as low as 5% (though I can't remember where the extra -5% comes from right now)

Racial and class specific I'd wager

Hazzardevil
2011-02-03, 01:44 PM
I reckon that you should ask him some questions in game
1. Does he speak drudiric?
2. Ask him to teach you drudiric. (If he loses his powers he is a druid, problem is, if he is a druid you have just screwed his charector. You can just out a metal armor on him while asleep, this works just as well Only if he is a druid he is just a rogue without sneak attack for 24 hours.)

Also, if it isn't too hard, could you find out his rcae and exact stats. This can give us a good idea since that is all we need to know ideally.

2xMachina
2011-02-03, 01:58 PM
If he is a druid, he won't teach you Druidic. If he isn't a Druid, he can't and won't teach you Druidic. Nothing gained.

And it is very hard to get a sleeping fellow into armor without waking him up.

Hazzardevil
2011-02-03, 03:08 PM
But if he isn't a druid chances aer he won't know that druids can't teach it too anyone else, if he knows that though he can just tell you somethign that is drudiric or random gibberish, use listen to this and repeat it too a druid and ask teh NPC if this polayer is a druid.

Combat Reflexes
2011-02-03, 03:22 PM
But if he isn't a druid chances aer he won't know that druids can't teach it too anyone else, if he knows that though he can just tell you somethign that is drudiric or random gibberish, use listen to this and repeat it too a druid and ask teh NPC if this polayer is a druid.

I'm sure there are easier ways to uncover Daves real identity. Divination spells, for instance: you're only one Divination away from answers.

Also, your DM would probably disapprove such tests and make all attemps fail. If the druid really is a plot device, there is nothing you can do to research it until the DM thinks the time is right :smallfrown:. It's fiat, but he's just protecting you against yourself actually.

Unfortunately reverse engineering is just such a damn fun thing to do :smalltongue:

HerrTenko
2011-02-03, 03:52 PM
If that Fiend of Possession really is a plot device and part of the DM's Scenario, I hope you realize you have ruined this poor guy's future attempts at surprise. Shame on you all! :smalltongue:

My advice is to roll with it gameswise. I mean, reverse-engineering and metagaming really aren't elegant ways to answer your questions. Roleplay your way out of ignorance. Try to ask him stuff. Play the whole thing. If there's something to uncover (and if your DM isn't making the whole thing fail because of his plot's plot armor - but good DMs don't do that), you'll slowly shed some light on it. At the end of the day, it will be way more fun than any complaining, metagaming or reverse-engineering in the world. And you'll probably make the other guy and the DM happy too.

All it takes is some trust in your Game Master. I can't help but feel that's not as common as it should be... If you can't trust your DM, why even bother playing?

Coidzor
2011-02-03, 05:01 PM
If that Fiend of Possession really is a plot device and part of the DM's Scenario, I hope you realize you have ruined this poor guy's future attempts at surprise. Shame on you all! :smalltongue:

And we should always like the surprises people we don't trust worth spit. :smalltongue:


My advice is to roll with it gameswise. I mean, reverse-engineering and metagaming really aren't elegant ways to answer your questions.
There's nothing elegant about this scenario. And I'd have to disagree with you anyway. The ability to posit possible ways of doing something within the rules does show a certain elegance of rules mastery.


If there's something to uncover (and if your DM isn't making the whole thing fail because of his plot's plot armor - but good DMs don't do that) What has led you to believe that the DM wouldn't from what you've read so far in this thread?


All it takes is some trust in your Game Master. I can't help but feel that's not as common as it should be... If you can't trust your DM, why even bother playing?

Because trusting the DM's trust in someone who abuses and doesn't actually remember the rules correctly when not hiding everything from the rest of the group is so deserved. In case you haven't been following along, the player in question has demonstrated himself to be unworthy of trust. That the DM is in on some scheme with him is just further cause for unease.

HerrTenko
2011-02-04, 04:30 AM
And we should always like the surprises people we don't trust worth spit.
Don't play with a GM you don't trust, then. It's that simple.


There's nothing elegant about this scenario. And I'd have to disagree with you anyway. The ability to posit possible ways of doing something within the rules does show a certain elegance of rules mastery.
Of course there's nothing elegant about a plot that didn't even have the time to BECOME plot since it's been uncovered even before the PCs had any chance to start any kind of roleplaying. And if I'll admit a player that knows the rules is a good thing to have, a player that wants to solve an In-Game problem (namely : "what the living puppy is this guy anyway?") by using this place's knowledge of all things DnD, possibly ruining part of his Dm's plot or plans for the game, isn't. I just hope what's been discovered here won't be used for metagaming, 'cause that would be the paroxism of inelegance.


What has led you to believe that the DM wouldn't from what you've read so far in this thread?
Nothing has led me to believe the Dm's gonna screw up. And when it comes to DM's things are pretty simple :
-He's obviously, clearly, unmistakenly screwing up in the open. When that happens, yes, that's the time you can overtly mistrust your DM and consider he's gonna screw up even more.
-He's not obviously, clearly, unmistakenly screwing up. Do not interfere. It could actually be a thousand things, from plot to bluff to some obscure game mecanics to new rules he's testing out to... And since he's the DM, he doesn't HAVE to tell you about every single lil' thing he's doing behind his screen. That's the point of a DM. "Mind your own business".



Because trusting the DM's trust in someone who abuses and doesn't actually remember the rules correctly when not hiding everything from the rest of the group is so deserved. In case you haven't been following along, the player in question has demonstrated himself to be unworthy of trust. That the DM is in on some scheme with him is just further cause for unease.

That's where I disagree. Because the DM is obviously aware of what's happening here. He knows what's going on. And he didn't chose to stop it.
Do you remember rule 0? Whatever rolls with the DM shall roll with players. Trusting your DM is mandatory. If the DM knows what Dave is doing, and he didn't bother vetoing it, then it is de facto by the rules, no matter what's written in those Dragon Magazines where the idea came from.

Of course, all this is true as long as OP's GM is actually a good GM that knows what the heck he's doing. If he ends up screwing up, then consider this post doesn't exist and ignore it. Because I'll defend good DMs, but if the guy who's supposed to be in charge and you have to trust with everything can't actually handle it, I'm out and never to be seen again.

EDIT : Woot, quote war! :smalltongue:

Jan Mattys
2011-02-04, 06:18 AM
Honestly, for what it's worth, I like HerrTenko's way of thinking.

A lot.

SiuiS
2011-02-04, 06:28 AM
Personally, I just want my curiosity sated. So if you aren't any closer to having an answer after your next game, tell this "Dave" that there are a couple people who have heard of his awesome build online and we'd appreciate if he'd share it.

HeadlessMermaid
2011-02-04, 06:38 AM
OP, I think you should let the player be for the moment, pause the guessing game and talk to your DM.

You said the situation makes the DM unhappy. It seems to me that he's lacking two crucial pieces of information, and you can help him in both accounts (and help solve everyone's problem at the same time).

1) There's a distinct possibility that the player's trick isn't actually legal. If the DM was aware of that and was alright with it, it would be fine. When we play D&D, we're not slaves to RAW, after all. But I don't think that's the case, otherwise the DM wouldn't be frustrated. So you could point out that the player has a history of misinterpreting the rules, and pass your DM the GitP forum address - or another similar forum.

It's understandable that he doesn't want to share with another player (you, for example) what's going on, because the story apparently demands secrecy. But he can come to these lovely boards and say "Hey, folks, one of my players did this and that! Is he right? Is he wrong? And what can I do now, that I've already let him do it?" (Promise you won't peek to see what he's saying, and keep your promise.)

2) It may not have dawned on your DM that he can disallow stuff, even if he thinks they're legal. This doesn't mean he's stupid or weak, it's just a matter of mentality and habit. If a DM is used to dealing with players who don't play their classes to their full mechanical potential and never try to exploit the rules, he is naturally not used to disallowing stuff and sees no reason to do so unless it's against the rules.

So point out that, with tons of books and magazines written, there are legal combos that are just... wrong. He is not obliged to allow them just because they're legal. He can say no. He has that right, he's the DM. And he should exercise that right, if the other players (and he himself) stop having fun, which is the entire point of this game.


P.S. Sorry to go back to the guessing game after that, but he's not actually breaking action economy. Your example was Cast a spell/Move/Rebuke Undead, and there's the feat Quicken Turning, from Libris Mortis, which allows you to turn or rebuke undead as a free action once per round. Also, your first description about this sequence was "for fluff reasons", so perhaps the DM has allowed him to do that even without the feat. ("That" being turning undead in particular as a free action, and not having double actions per round, which has been taken for granted all this time.)

caden_varn
2011-02-04, 07:20 AM
I echo what Headless Mermaid said. From the OPs comments, it sounds to me like the DM agreed to let in this character, and is now regretting it, but is maybe feeling it difficult to change his position after initially saying yes.

It depends a lot on how you and the other players are feeling about it - if he is being completely dominant and thus ruining your fun, have a polite chat with the DM about it. Even if you are just a bit concerned about the situation, and think it might end up that way, it is worth mentioning something to the DM about it so he has a heads-up.

If you think the DM is not happy, even if you are not concerned, it is also worht having a chat with him. Many DMs are much more reluctant to invoke Rule 0 than others, so he may need a bit of encouragement (or just a sympathetic ear). The DM gets to have fun too...

The Rabbler
2011-02-04, 10:30 AM
P.S. Sorry to go back to the guessing game after that, but he's not actually breaking action economy. Your example was Cast a spell/Move/Rebuke Undead, and there's the feat Quicken Turning, from Libris Mortis, which allows you to turn or rebuke undead as a free action once per round. Also, your first description about this sequence was "for fluff reasons", so perhaps the DM has allowed him to do that even without the feat. ("That" being turning undead in particular as a free action, and not having double actions per round, which has been taken for granted all this time.)

I plan on letting the game go on uninhibited, but this caught my attention. When Dave did break the action economy, I called BS and he said "yea, but it's for fluff reasons. If it weren't for fluff, it would be way overpowered." He made it pretty clear that he wasn't just quickening a rebuke attempt. Just making sure that everyone was aware of this.

EDIT: as for the DM chat, I'll see if anything changes by tomorrow, when we meet again.

HerrTenko
2011-02-04, 10:37 AM
That would be a satisfactory explaination.
Plot-powered Fluff is the most powerful thing in the world, after all. With this and the DM's agreement, anything is possible.

HeadlessMermaid
2011-02-04, 10:43 AM
I plan on letting the game go on uninhibited, but this caught my attention. When Dave did break the action economy, I called BS and he said "yea, but it's for fluff reasons. If it weren't for fluff, it would be way overpowered." He made it pretty clear that he wasn't just quickening a rebuke attempt. Just making sure that everyone was aware of this.
Oh, OK. Just a question. Were there other instances where he made too many actions in the same round? (And if so, were they actions of any type, or specifically Rebuke?)

Because if it was a one-time-thing, for whatever reason, I don't think it's worth the bother at all...

stainboy
2011-02-04, 03:41 PM
He might be a ghost. EL+5, Charisma +4, no prereqs, and he can start with Malevolence to possess the druid. Class is Dread Necromancer, because it's a Charisma-based caster with Rebuke Undead.

That easily gives him a starting 22 Charisma, high enough to control 8 gray renders via Render Bait while under an Eagle's Splendor spell, and enough for a Human Ghost Dread Necro 3 to turn evolved wraiths.

It's also possible he's a Ghost Dread Necro 1 of some race with a sick Charisma bonus, giving him 26 Charisma. That would give him 8 gray renders without any buffs and let him turn 5-HD undead on a turning check of 17. He can't turn a 5 HD creature with turn resistance but wraiths' (and evolved wraiths') turn resistance isn't defined. Undead are supposed to have Turn Resistance +2 or Turn Resistance +4 or something, but an evolved wraith just has "turn resistance" which is meaningless. The DM may have treated them as 5-HD creatures.

The Rabbler
2011-02-04, 05:57 PM
Oh, OK. Just a question. Were there other instances where he made too many actions in the same round? (And if so, were they actions of any type, or specifically Rebuke?)

Because if it was a one-time-thing, for whatever reason, I don't think it's worth the bother at all...

This was the first and only time, but I don't doubt that he could do it again. Whenever he wants, for that matter.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-04, 06:04 PM
@stainboy: Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar has +4 Cha and LA 0. Sounds easy enough to do.

The Rabbler
2011-02-04, 06:09 PM
He might be a ghost. EL+5, Charisma +4, no prereqs, and he can start with Malevolence to possess the druid. Class is Dread Necromancer, because it's a Charisma-based caster with Rebuke Undead.

That easily gives him a starting 22 Charisma, high enough to control 8 gray renders via Render Bait while under an Eagle's Splendor spell, and enough for a Human Ghost Dread Necro 3 to turn evolved wraiths.

It's also possible he's a Ghost Dread Necro 1 of some race with a sick Charisma bonus, giving him 26 Charisma. That would give him 8 gray renders without any buffs and let him turn 5-HD undead on a turning check of 17. He can't turn a 5 HD creature with turn resistance but wraiths' (and evolved wraiths') turn resistance isn't defined. Undead are supposed to have Turn Resistance +2 or Turn Resistance +4 or something, but an evolved wraith just has "turn resistance" which is meaningless. The DM may have treated them as 5-HD creatures.

I believe they were considered to have turn resistance +2. and he rolled pretty well. (17-18)

stainboy
2011-02-04, 06:17 PM
Alright then, that makes this easier. He has to have three levels in a class that rebukes undead. (I'm not sure what kind of feats or items would improve turning checks beyond CL+4, but nobody optimizes turning checks, least of all munchkins with huge LAs. Let's assume he didn't.)

He's a Ghost Dread Necro 3, base creature an LA +0 race but probably one with a super cheesy Charisma bonus. That Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar thing sounds reasonable.

faceroll
2011-02-04, 06:55 PM
Are you sure they're gray renders and not zombies or disguised undead? I think he's a Dread Necro, not really a druid.

The Rabbler
2011-02-04, 06:58 PM
Are you sure they're gray renders and not zombies or disguised undead? I think he's a Dread Necro, not really a druid.

nope, not sure at all.

EDIT: guys, I'm pretty sure he's got something from a dragon magazine of some kind. Both the DM and the player have both stated that it came from dragon magazine. We have a communal collection of dragon magazines and we also have a compendium of dragon mags. I was hoping some of you might have seen something from a dragon mag that might resemble this. I, personally, am not curious enough about what's going on to search through what is probably several hundred pages of technically homebrew to find exactly what his trick is.

stainboy
2011-02-04, 07:02 PM
For what it's worth, if you go to Zombie in the Monster Manual and pick the meanest thing listed, it's a gray render. Is there an ability that lets someone control up to 8 zombies regardless of their HD? (Possibly in Dragon Magazine, since we haven't found anything from there yet?)

The Glyphstone
2011-02-04, 07:03 PM
nope, not sure at all.

EDIT: guys, I'm pretty sure he's got something from a dragon magazine of some kind. Both the DM and the player have both stated that it came from dragon magazine. We have a communal collection of dragon magazines and we also have a compendium of dragon mags. I was hoping some of you might have seen something from a dragon mag that might resemble this. I, personally, am not curious enough about what's going on to search through what is probably several hundred pages of technically homebrew to find exactly what his trick is.

Alternatively...he/they are just lying to you. They might do this to preserve the eventual 'surprise!" factor.

Grollub
2011-02-04, 07:15 PM
I don't know what kind of adventure you are doing, but if you are dungeon crawling... is there actual room in the dungeon for 8 grey renders? lol

If you ever get a separation of the "druid" and grey renders ( somewhere the grey renders can't go or something ), simply kill the druid.

That or wait till it's your turn on watch, and smash his head in with a rock.

Either way you'll find out what he is. :smallbiggrin:

The Rabbler
2011-02-04, 07:21 PM
I don't know what kind of adventure you are doing, but if you are dungeon crawling... is there actual room in the dungeon for 8 grey renders? lol

If you ever get a separation of the "druid" and grey renders ( somewhere the grey renders can't go or something ), simply kill the druid.

That or wait till it's your turn on watch, and smash his head in with a rock.

Either way you'll find out what he is. :smallbiggrin:

we're working our way down into the underdark, actually. Since it's our first real set of encounters and we're still pretty far up, the tunnels are still fairly wide.

also: No PvP. Because it's mean. And because it's not really a challenge. My character right now could probably solo all of the other characters (minus a gray render or four) because polar bears/phaetar are just that awesome at my level. next level I get a cave troll, too.


Alternatively...he/they are just lying to you. They might do this to preserve the eventual 'surprise!" factor.

also an option.

Waker
2011-02-04, 08:59 PM
The issue with trying to guess what he grabbed from Dragon is that we don't know the type of thing grabbed from the magazine. Was it a race? Class? Feats? Items? This is further compounded when you consider the +350 issues of Dragon that were released.
Thus far we know he has the ability to rebuke undead, control several gray renders and claims to be a druid, although we have heard no evidence of druidish powers. What is his favored strategies in combat? Does he join the fray or hang back casting spells? Describe his visible gear. What race is he (at least what is he claiming)?

The Rabbler
2011-02-04, 09:23 PM
The issue with trying to guess what he grabbed from Dragon is that we don't know the type of thing grabbed from the magazine. Was it a race? Class? Feats? Items? This is further compounded when you consider the +350 issues of Dragon that were released.

exactly my issue.


Thus far we know he has the ability to rebuke undead, control several gray renders and claims to be a druid, although we have heard no evidence of druidish powers. What is his favored strategies in combat? Does he join the fray or hang back casting spells? Describe his visible gear. What race is he (at least what is he claiming)?

so far, he's using the druid as a spellcaster and the gray renders as several BSFs. If the monster can be hit by the renders, they hit it. If the monster would be particularly affected by rebuking/what few spells his druid has, he'll use them. Two of our three encounters were undead, so he rebuked and was effective. One of our encounters involved two stone... things (rolled 32 know(arcana) and DM wouldn't tell me the name) and a render hit it once. the other times, they either missed or couldn't get in range (we had 4 medium sized creatures in range and two large creatures in range when we only had about 5 adjacent squares.

Waker
2011-02-04, 09:51 PM
so far, he's using the druid as a spellcaster and the gray renders as several BSFs. If the monster can be hit by the renders, they hit it. If the monster would be particularly affected by rebuking/what few spells his druid has, he'll use them. Two of our three encounters were undead, so he rebuked and was effective. One of our encounters involved two stone... things (rolled 32 know(arcana) and DM wouldn't tell me the name) and a render hit it once. the other times, they either missed or couldn't get in range (we had 4 medium sized creatures in range and two large creatures in range when we only had about 5 adjacent squares.
What spells does he cast? That is something that can help us narrow down the potential classes he can use. If we know about certain spells that only appear on the druid spell list, that would be especially helpful. Describe the character's gear (what you've seen) and his general appearance.

Combat Reflexes
2011-02-05, 02:24 PM
Question: is the gray render a zombie?
Answer: Toss a flask of holy water at its head.

If it's a zombie, it will get hurt. And it will smash your skull in, but that was worth it, eh?

The Rabbler
2011-02-05, 02:33 PM
What spells does he cast? That is something that can help us narrow down the potential classes he can use. If we know about certain spells that only appear on the druid spell list, that would be especially helpful. Describe the character's gear (what you've seen) and his general appearance.

all he's cast so far is CLW. We haven't done much character description/exposition. All we really know about eachother is what race we look like.

Before the game, we'd spent at least 3 hours getting ready, as 3-4 players hadn't made their characters and by the time we started, it was late enough that we just wanted to get some encounters out of the way.

Aemoh87
2011-02-05, 02:46 PM
Where could I find Fiend of Possession?

Waker
2011-02-05, 03:03 PM
Fiend Folio, pg 204.

Well, until something comes up that says otherwise, I'm assuming the character is a Cleric or Dread Necromancer as the base class.

The Rabbler
2011-02-23, 03:19 PM
Alright, guys, sorry that it's been so long since a reply, but I've not had a session in a while before yesterday, so now I can update this thread with more stuff.

News: While looking through the character sheets for my sheet, I stumbled across Dave's sheet. Turns out he's an 8th level necropolitan dread necromancer and his gray renders are 20 HD zombie renders. This probably means that he does have the rebuke-as-a-free-action feat and therefore didn't break the action economy (though he certainly hinted that he could). Anyway, thanks for the brainstorming, it made for some very interesting and well-thought-out character ideas.

stainboy
2011-02-24, 03:06 AM
Aww, I really wanted the whole thing to be RAW-legal, especially after we figured out how to do all this ridiculous stuff.

Anyway this was fun.

faceroll
2011-02-24, 04:19 AM
Alright, guys, sorry that it's been so long since a reply, but I've not had a session in a while before yesterday, so now I can update this thread with more stuff.

News: While looking through the character sheets for my sheet, I stumbled across Dave's sheet. Turns out he's an 8th level necropolitan dread necromancer and his gray renders are 20 HD zombie renders. This probably means that he does have the rebuke-as-a-free-action feat and therefore didn't break the action economy (though he certainly hinted that he could). Anyway, thanks for the brainstorming, it made for some very interesting and well-thought-out character ideas.

Haha, knew it. Appreciate the update. :smallsmile:

Combat Reflexes
2011-02-25, 05:59 PM
:smallfrown: A bit of an anticlimax

Nevertheless, reverse engineering his character was great fun. Someone should make a game out of this or something like that :)

Chilingsworth
2011-02-25, 06:23 PM
Alright, guys, sorry that it's been so long since a reply, but I've not had a session in a while before yesterday, so now I can update this thread with more stuff.

News: While looking through the character sheets for my sheet, I stumbled across Dave's sheet. Turns out he's an 8th level necropolitan dread necromancer and his gray renders are 20 HD zombie renders. This probably means that he does have the rebuke-as-a-free-action feat and therefore didn't break the action economy (though he certainly hinted that he could). Anyway, thanks for the brainstorming, it made for some very interesting and well-thought-out character ideas.

Ok: how does he cast cure light wounds, then? And are the zombies only getting partial actions like they should? IIRC, normal renders get at least two attacks per round on a full attack. If the zombies are doing so, there's still something wrong.

Jarian
2011-02-25, 07:17 PM
If the zombies are doing so, there's still something wrong.

Aside from the fact that an 8th level character has multiple 20 HD creatures at its command, you mean?

The Glyphstone
2011-02-25, 07:30 PM
Aside from the fact that an 8th level character has multiple 20 HD creatures at its command, you mean?

That's cheesy, but legal. Zombies getting multiple attacks per round is not legal.

Jarian
2011-02-25, 07:33 PM
That's cheesy, but legal. Zombies getting multiple attacks per round is not legal.

Sorry, I guess I should have been clearer. That was more of a "The character clearly hasn't been set aflame by holy fire, on the grace of your DM, so probably best not to question it too far."

But yes.

Chilingsworth
2011-02-25, 07:36 PM
Aside from the fact that an 8th level character has multiple 20 HD creatures at its command, you mean?

Umm... yeah.:smallredface:

Combat Reflexes
2011-02-26, 04:44 PM
That's cheesy, but legal. Zombies getting multiple attacks per round is not legal.

Maybe the zombies have levels in Warblade for the Wolf Fang Strike maneuver...
Wait, that's even less legal.

The zombies could be hasted. Does Haste give an additional attack on a partial action?

Waker
2011-02-26, 04:47 PM
The zombies could be hasted. Does Haste give an additional attack on a partial action?
No, it only gives you an additional attack on a full-round attack.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-26, 05:13 PM
Ok: how does he cast cure light wounds, then? And are the zombies only getting partial actions like they should? IIRC, normal renders get at least two attacks per round on a full attack. If the zombies are doing so, there's still something wrong.

I'd guess Arcane Disciple (Healing domain) and forgetting to read the rules, respectively. Unless he used the BoVD Corpse Creature template, which is pretty much the same as zombie but with normal actions.

JaronK
2011-02-26, 08:32 PM
Heh, this whole scenario is hilarious because I've actually played a Dread Necromancer who pretends to be a Paladin on a regular basis (he keeps Mithral Ceremonial Full Plate for that exact reason). In an evil campaign it's hilarious to look like one of the good guys... and with nondetection + bluff you can really mess with your enemies.

As for the zombies, Undead Mastery helps here. Dread Necromancers have Disguise as a class skill, so they can make the things look (if not act) alive. With a Charisma of 22 a DN 8 could control 80 HD of animated critters, enough for 4 Gray Renders.

By the way, since a bunch of people have been off on this, note that Rebuke Undead only controls things if they have half as much HD as your Rebuke level. Charisma doesn't even factor in. But clever use of Turn Resistance Reducers (Rod of Defiance, Lyre of the Restful Soul) can make Rebuking work on surprisingly powerful enemies.

JaronK

stabbitty death
2011-02-26, 08:40 PM
what book is the fiend of possesion in?

SiuiS
2011-02-26, 09:05 PM
Fiend folio, in the very back. Like, it's almost an appendix.