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bokodasu
2011-02-01, 10:35 AM
I got tired of needing an entire binder to run my druid, so for our new campaign I worked up a fun tripping half-giant psychic warrior, with a nice backstory and a couple of campaign hooks, who can be run from a refreshingly single-sided sheet of paper...

right when my DM got tired of running an all-combat campaign, and switched to combat-light.

So now I'm in a party with an assassin, a rogue disguised as a cleric, a swashbuckly sort of rogue, a cleric (who may have rogue levels) and a diplomancer bard. (Note that I'm guessing on some of this, as our actual charsheets are all secret, but close enough.) And there's nothing for me to do - I don't have any skill points beyond the basics of what it takes to run a psychic warrior, so I have zero out-of-combat utility. (Listen? Spot? Intimidate? Gather information? No, no, I just THINK REALLY HARD. Sigh.)

We're 6th level and early enough in the campaign I could probably change out one or two levels BUT we're playing SRD only, plus some homebrew, but there's no "oh, take some swordsage or ardent or something". Should I give up and roll a wizard, or is there a way to make this character not utterly boring?

And if the answer is "give up and reroll" - what should I build? I really wanted to stay away from playing a caster, but it seems like the party has every other avenue covered already.

Electrohydra
2011-02-01, 10:46 AM
Expanded Knowledge could let you take an out of class power that might be more useful like psionic charm. If everyone is going the stealth route you can pick up things like Chameleon, Distract and Wall walker.

Also consider talking to your DM about giving you intimidate as a class skill.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-02-01, 12:34 PM
Expanded Knowledge could let you take an out of class power that might be more useful like psionic charm. If everyone is going the stealth route you can pick up things like Chameleon, Distract and Wall walker.

Also consider talking to your DM about giving you intimidate as a class skill.

Seconded.
You could also talk to your DM, either about how you feel your not getting an equal chance to show-case your character's abilities or about retraining your character so you can start of with a different class. I notice you don't have any real Arcane power in your group.
Also, there are a great variety of Psionic powers out there. Take a peek at what is available to you and see if there isn't a fun way your character can make use of them outside of combat.
Finally, though the party may not be overly pleased about it, you can always initiate combat, if your character is a brute-force over diplomacy type (think Jayne from Firefly).

Toliudar
2011-02-01, 12:38 PM
Seconding expanded knowledge, although a secondary difficulty is that PsyWars get so few power points that it'll still take a lot of rationing. Do you think your DM might let you change the crunch to an egoist instead? Same crunch, same powers (plus a few more), just a little squishier in exchange for more versatility.

Torvon
2011-02-01, 12:40 PM
i'm playing a fighter/barbarian in another campaign.
he is dumb like a stone, and has around -17 skill points per level.

it is an entire social campaign, not much fighting going on. and i love to play him. doesnt matter what you can do and achieve on paper, if you have a good idea about how to roleplay your character ... it's all that matters :)

if stats would matter for roleplaying, then level 20 characters would be easier to roleplay than level 1 characters ... which is obviously nonsense.

all the best :)
torvon

ps: quite melee heavy your group :)

bokodasu
2011-02-01, 02:52 PM
I wouldn't mind just roleplaying my character - I thought she was pretty interesting - but everything comes down to a skill check in the end. (Which explains why everyone else is a rogue.) And I have no skills to check. If he'd go for the "intimidate uses STR instead of CHA" thing it might be worth it, I'll try that one.

I may just do a thrallherd. I kind of have one built, it just needs a little polish. It's just that a) I'm playing a psion in another campaign already and b) I didn't really want to run multiple characters. But it seems the only way I can be a fighter and do things besides fighting.

You know, the more I play 3.5, the more I dislike its skill system.

Torvon
2011-02-01, 03:06 PM
but everything comes down to a skill check in the end.
Does it? I guess that depends on your group.

The skill system in D&D is a joke, you can't cover what people do out of combat with it really.

But if your DM wants you to roll dice for everything you do ("I want to greet the barkeeper" - "roll it!" ...), and you play more a table top D&D (which is neither good nor bad, I'm not judging here), I guess a PC who has a little bit more up his sleave than his hammer is a good decision :)

ta-ta
T

Kol Korran
2011-02-01, 03:47 PM
hhmmmm... i'm not sure i can help, but here are some thoughts:

1) "everything comes down to a skill check"... I really don't think it has to be so. In my group skills get their place, but so does role playing, especially when talking about social situations, and/or inventive ideas. talk to your DM about it, maybe s/he can see this point? it encourages roleplaying much more.

2) talking about the inventive ideas: the ideas players come up with which leave the DM either a) mouth gaped, b) cursing silently and looking at you murderously or preferably c) smiling and laughing, and coming up with new ideas. you don't need any specific class or skill for those. and as a Psychic warrior you can claim it comes from "thinking with your head" or whatever.

3) "combat easy" doesn't necessarily mean "combat less". in my current party i have a player who has a very similar position to yours- he played complex manipulating, skill heavy characters, and wanted in this campaign to "be big and kill stuff". (btw, he also plays a half giant psywar, 4th level, called Google :smallwink: if you'd like to read more about their adventures, follow the link in my sig [/shameless promotion]) this didn't stop him participating in social interactions ("Aid another?") but true, he is mostly a combat animal. i like to think my campaign has enough elements of most kinds, and though it is not combat-light, it is not combat-heavy either.

i'm blabbering. my point is- when combat does arrive, he shines like no other, as your character probably will. so you'll have some awesome points in the game, without competing with the others for it. try to talk to your DM to realize just how "light" is combat-light. a battle or two every session? every other session? every 4? see if it's worth it for you.

hhhmmmmm.. i hope it helps. for an obvious reason, i'm rooting for half giants Psywars. :smallamused:

Keld Denar
2011-02-01, 03:58 PM
but everything comes down to a skill check in the end. (Which explains why everyone else is a rogue.)

I'm actually having the reverse problem with my group. I have the bard, with the +21 Diplomancy and if I cast Glibness, the +50 Bluff. Generally, my opportunities at the table to roleplay are rather limited though. Either nobody will talk to me because I'm not an elf, or one of the other players will be talking. The DM then asks for Dip or Bluff checks from one of the other players, most of which have 0 ranks and a NEGATIVE cha modifier. I ask if I can make the check instead, but the DM flat out says no. Whats the point in having zomgasmic skillz if either the DM doesn't let you use them, or just hands things out without them.

Then again, my DM seems to go primarily off rolls, rather than results, for many things. One time I did get to roll diplomacy, rolled a 2, and ended up with a 23 result. Failed the roll, when the other players suceed in their rolls with a 19-20 resulting in a 18-20 or so. My higher check is worth less because its not a naturally high value. So...whats the point in having modifiers then, if everyone has a roughly 50% chance to succeeding? Why not just flip a coin or something...

Torvon
2011-02-01, 04:16 PM
Then again, my DM seems to go primarily off rolls, rather than results, for many things. One time I did get to roll diplomacy, rolled a 2, and ended up with a 23 result. Failed the roll, when the other players suceed in their rolls with a 19-20 resulting in a 18-20 or so. My higher check is worth less because its not a naturally high value. So...whats the point in having modifiers then, if everyone has a roughly 50% chance to succeeding? Why not just flip a coin or something...

Errr ... this is so bad. Seriously ^^ ... someone explain him the idea of basic maths, and how D20 works.

/target Keld Denar
/pat

LansXero
2011-02-01, 04:19 PM
everything comes down to a skill check in the end.

yup, but unless Im remembering wrong all / most social skills can be done untrained. And Im pretty sure its in the rules for the DM to liberally assign circumstancial modifiers / penalties. At least thats how I handle things like this: If you roleplay well / have a good idea / make a good point you get a +2/4/x to your check, depending on how good it was. If you are too lazy to come up with at least the gist of your 'diplomancing' and just make the check, you get -2/4/x, depending. If you have both a decent idea (even though you may not a good actor, you can still lay down what you will try to say or do) and ranks on top of that, well, thats just better :D

Keld Denar
2011-02-01, 04:31 PM
See, I'm a decent RPer, but I'm not so good at coming up with elaborate flowery speaches on demand, and as such, usually help formulate a plan which one of the other players puts into precise words. I'm more of a planner than a method actor. The player who does that ends up making the check, even if I helped come up with the plan, my modifiers be damned. I'm also the "young guy" in a group of older gamers, so I often get talked over, even when I do have a plan.

LansXero
2011-02-01, 04:50 PM
Thats just so very unfair indeed. Its one thing to say "I roll. I made X. result?" and another something like: "well, since the Inn is named after his wife, complimenting her may get me his grace, also since you said there are a pair of swords in the tavern sign the guy is probably some kind of old-fighter, dunno, so maybe something like he is strong and stuff would do well. Yeah, Ill do that.". You dont need to be an actor to play RPGs, nor should you be punished for being one. But I think paying attention and coming up with good ideas should be required too.

Your DM is probably just being a mean meaniehead =/

WarKitty
2011-02-01, 04:53 PM
Thats just so very unfair indeed. Its one thing to say "I roll. I made X. result?" and another something like: "well, since the Inn is named after his wife, complimenting her may get me his grace, also since you said there are a pair of swords in the tavern sign the guy is probably some kind of old-fighter, dunno, so maybe something like he is strong and stuff would do well. Yeah, Ill do that.". You dont need to be an actor to play RPGs, nor should you be punished for being one. But I think paying attention and coming up with good ideas should be required too.

Your DM is probably just being a mean meaniehead =/

Of course, our group method is often to come up with the actual speech after seeing the roll. Makes for fun times that way.

Hazzardevil
2011-02-01, 05:23 PM
TBBH I think that to do what you are after, see if you can play a bard using the following things,

Snowflake Wardance,
possibly dragonfire inspiration,
I de reccomend that you ask your DM if you can access soem stuff outside of core, they reputation from bards being useless is when they are restricted to core only stuff.

Chilingsworth
2011-02-01, 06:12 PM
I'm actually having the reverse problem with my group. I have the bard, with the +21 Diplomancy and if I cast Glibness, the +50 Bluff. Generally, my opportunities at the table to roleplay are rather limited though. Either nobody will talk to me because I'm not an elf, or one of the other players will be talking. The DM then asks for Dip or Bluff checks from one of the other players, most of which have 0 ranks and a NEGATIVE cha modifier. I ask if I can make the check instead, but the DM flat out says no. Whats the point in having zomgasmic skillz if either the DM doesn't let you use them, or just hands things out without them.

Then again, my DM seems to go primarily off rolls, rather than results, for many things. One time I did get to roll diplomacy, rolled a 2, and ended up with a 23 result. Failed the roll, when the other players suceed in their rolls with a 19-20 resulting in a 18-20 or so. My higher check is worth less because its not a naturally high value. So...whats the point in having modifiers then, if everyone has a roughly 50% chance to succeeding? Why not just flip a coin or something...

Have you tried getting a hat of diguise,the diguise self spell, or the alter self spell? That (with ranks in diguise) would take care of you're "wont talk to non-elves" problem. As for your DM being bad with math... maybe try hitting him with a 3rd grade math textbook. If that doesn't work, move up to high-grade textbooks untill you find a suffciently heavy one.

OP, short of intentionally initiating combat, the only thing I can think of is multiclassing or making a new character. Goodluck.

bokodasu
2011-02-02, 07:47 AM
"everything comes down to a skill check"... I really don't think it has to be so.
...
("Aid another?")
...
i hope it helps. for an obvious reason, i'm rooting for half giants Psywars.

Yeah, it doesn't have to be so, but with this DM, that's how it is. I mean, I'm ok with it to some extent (why have skills if they don't do anything? Do you get bonuses in combat for describing how well you swing your sword?) but on the other hand, anything that encourages RP is good in my book. And sitting around doing nothing 90% of the time is never ok.

But aid another, that is an EXCELLENT idea, and something I always forget about. I should be able to do that 45% of the time; it may not be much, but it's better than taking up knitting, which was my other idea. (She's a half-giant. These non-desert lands are chilly, you know?)

Now I'm feeling encouraged. Thanks!


Whats the point in having zomgasmic skillz if either the DM doesn't let you use them, or just hands things out without them.

Oh, that's the worst, and in the opposite direction. It's one I argue with my DM a lot, except in my case substitute "class features" for "skills". I hate cutscenes, too.



I de reccomend that you ask your DM if you can access soem stuff outside of core, they reputation from bards being useless is when they are restricted to core only stuff.

Heck, if I could go out of core, I'd be a beguiler, which was my first choice. But he's become even stronger in his belief that core is balanced and outside options are broken, so that's a no-go. (Er, that may be a little bit my fault. But I am the least optimizey of the optimizers in my group, I swear. I just played a druid, and I think he may have gotten the idea that druids are monsters of battle and magic because of how much effort I put into playing mine rather than that being their inherent nature.)

Greenish
2011-02-02, 08:00 AM
(Er, that may be a little bit my fault. But I am the least optimizey of the optimizers in my group, I swear. I just played a druid, and I think he may have gotten the idea that druids are monsters of battle and magic because of how much effort I put into playing mine rather than that being their inherent nature.)Being a monster of battle and magic is the inherent nature of the druid ("I have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html)). It's also the easiest class to break by accident.

Even core-only bard isn't as terrible as it's reputation. It has excellent skills (including UMD on cha focused class), serviceable spell casting, and the music, while minor, has quite a bit of utility.

Darrin
2011-02-02, 09:11 AM
We're 6th level and early enough in the campaign I could probably change out one or two levels BUT we're playing SRD only, plus some homebrew, but there's no "oh, take some swordsage or ardent or something". Should I give up and roll a wizard, or is there a way to make this character not utterly boring?


Some ideas on saving the character:

* Ask the DM or pay for a psychic reformation . This will allow you to redistribute your feats and skill points. Pick a social-based skill the other players haven't focused on yet. I recommend Forgery (mostly because it's opposed by Forgery, and *nobody else* ever put ranks in it). While Able Learner isn't in the SRD, the Skill Knowledge (http://srd.realmspire.com/unearthedAlternativeSkills.html#skill-knowledge) feat is... it's in an alternate skill system rules in the Unearthed Arcana section, but mechanicaly it works just fine with the default skill system. Open-Minded (http://srd.realmspire.com/psionicFeats.html#open-minded) is also in the SRD in the psionic section. This lets you convert feats into 5 skill points.

* Take a one-level dip into Bard, either via leveling up, retraining, begging the DM, etc. This gives you extra skill points, a huge list of class skills (including UMD, but sadly, not Forgery...), and most importantly, *Bardic Knowledge*. This makes you an expert on *absolutely everything* you can think of. Whenever anything is mentioned around your character, make a roll to see if you've "heard something about that". Yeah sure, your bonus will be lousy, but it's another way for the DM to feed the party information that they may have missed somewhere else. Save up/search/beg/plead/steal for a Headband of the Lorebinder (1600 GP, MIC p. 116, +4 bonus on Bardic Knowledge checks).

Bardic Knowledge also gives you carte blanche to just *make crap up*. Rather than ask the DM for hand-outs, just start B.S.-ing about random stuff and if you're good at it, you'll say something the DM thinks is funny/interesting and he'll incorporate it into his plot. For example: "Hey, I just noticed there's a tiny mark in the corner that looks a lot like the Baroness of Balderdash's monogram. I wonder if she used the same command word for all her personal items...", "I can tell from the striations along the tang that this weapon was manufactured by the Gnomes of Zurloch... hey, I think I ran into one of those guys a few taverns back, maybe I can go see if I can track him down?", or "Well, the Duke of Mallarkey tried that once, but he spilled some wine on his scroll of polymorph, and well, needless to say, the line of succession took a sudden detour through the Duke's dog."

You can sell this sudden transformation into Bardishness with a "Crazy Old Grandfather" story... your grandfather recently died and bequethed to you his old masterwork pipe organ (in a bag of holding that for some reason only the pipe organ can fit into), in the hopes that you'd eventually carry on the family tradition of battle-yodeling. Come to think of it, your grandfather was always singing about these crazy old yarns and obscure legends, which you thought was just complete gibberish up until now.

* Save up/buy some Gloves of Object Reading (http://srd.realmspire.com/psionicItemsU.html#gloves-of-object-reading). It's in the SRD, and this lets you use object reading at will. There's no skill check involved, so as long as you can touch something you can dig up useful information about items or NPCs. Also, detecting traps? *touch* "It's a trap." Command words? *touch* "The last owner used 'Zyzzx' to activate it." Locked door? *touch* "The key looked like this, and is usually kept in a rosewood box hidden behind a loose stone in a fireplace in some kind of wizard's laboratory."