Fun with Languages

[Yora]

Since we were seriously starting to derail another tread, let's open a dedicated thread about all the funny aspects of Language.

Current Topic: The Variants of German.


There's only 2 accents in german, as far as any english speaker can discern. There's the angry german, and the camp german. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayk3oxOqYXU)

I have a friend who studies (French and) german at university, and is living in germany for a year. She agrees completely, and hates me for drawing it to her attention.

There is also sweet little milkmaid German (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbWZCoYK8Zg&feature=related).


Haha, I meant male german. I dare you to find a man who can do *that* accent. But seriously, every single guy I've heard speak german falls into those 2 categories, to a greater or lesser extent.

(And I wasn't saying that as a serious comment, it's in jest entirely.)

Now I really have to get your guys oppinion about Northern German Country Bumpkin German (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IodAD0KEvM0)
This is from a hilarious kids show, but the way they speak is not a parody. That's exactly the way we talk outside the big cities. :smallbiggrin:

[Worlok]

And then there was this Saxon guy trying to learn Friesian in Bavaria, asking around until he was finally directed to where cabs are found... only to end up with a Hessian driver... :smallbiggrin:

Aber mal im Ernst, Hein Blöd is probably the very essence of the Northern German (language) for the rest of us. Including me, who I have been exposed to Schwiegershäuser Platt for most of my life. However, I think the term is ''country bumpkin'', and in that context, we should probably replace ''country'' with ''sea''... :smalltongue:

And speaking of that thing about it sounding angry, I as a native speaker always found German less suitable for really chewing someone out than, say, Arabic. Then I went to Berlin. Not all versions of German sound that angry, some don't even approach English's fairly low level of unholy outrage sound. But some do, no doubt about it. :smalleek:

[Keld Denar]

I liked my Sachsen accent. Its pretty easy, just slur your ch into sch, and change your i sound to an e sound. Other than that, there are some individual nuances like saying Ika instead of Ich, and saying Nu instead of Ya (not to be confused with Nein). In that vein, Nanu is Hallo, generally spoken with a head nod.

Sadly, my german has deteriorated with age and neglect, and while I can still speak decently, I can't really pull off the accent in conversation. Also, for some reason, despite me proficiency, I can't speak english with a german accent. That makes me sad. Chicks dig accents.

Also, man, I thought english had a ton of euphanisms for sex. German has like, hundreds!

[Yora]

I don't talk with much of an accent, but a hessian friend who's also interested in dialects often cracks up when I use such words as lütten, bräsig, deerns, or uttrecken.
But the other three girls of our groups are all Saxons, so... :smallbiggrin:

[Worlok]

"The door is open!" - "Denn maak se man tau, min deern!" (Gotta love some 'Low' German. :smallbiggrin:)

[Keld Denar]

Oh? Where are you from then Yora? I lived in Görlitz like, 12 years ago.

One thing I still say in Sachsish, is "Isch wehss es nee", or simply "Schwess nee", instead of "Ich weis es nicht" (I don't know).

[Yora]

I lived 10 years in Hamburg, 12 years in Lübeck, and now 5 years in Bayreuth. But I have a friend from Görlitz and from all the saxon dialects, they have one of the worst. :smallbiggrin:

Since I grew up in Hamburg but my mothers family (from whom I learned my real platt) is from Lübeck, so the way I speak doesn't fit either city exactly. There are lots of words we use at home, that just don't exist in the rest of Germany, but I always thought that we don't speak at home with an accent. Well, except that we often drop the last letter of most words. And drop the e from the word ending -en (which appears in a LOT of german words). And yes, maybe we hold all As, Es, and Os a bit longer than most people.
But I now realized that my often terrible sentence structre is simply Hamburger sentence structure. I think there's a pattern somewhere, but mostly it seems really random. :smallbiggrin:

I just managed to find an excelent article on north german language.
"Meine Muttersprache war also Hochdeutsch. Oder das, was wir Holsteiner dafür hielten." (http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/zwiebelfisch/0,1518,616380,00.html)
(There are also two pages of replies (http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/literatur/0,1518,616801,00.html).)
Don't know if non natives get it, but I think it's hilarious.
"Yes, the South (of Germany) starts south of the Elbe, definately after Hanover." Everything he claims about us is true. :smallbiggrin: And I agree, krüsch is the most awsome word in the world, that most probably does not exist with the exact same meaning in any other language.

[Eldan]

Jo, denn hämmär also mol wiäder än sprooch-thread...

Man. See, this is why you can't type Swiss German. There's only one "ä" key, but clearly two different ways to pronounce this letter.

Also, "krüsch"?

Try words like "gängeretalpli" (feet), "schtunggis" (mashed potatoes), "trischaagge" (to annoy). I love my partially fictional Bernese German. I'll have to annoy my father to tell me a few more of these, he grew up there.

[term1nally s1ck]

The OP's link is to my ears firmly in the camp german category.

[Ayron]

Es bruuch nur öpä 1 Stund Autofahrt und i verstah keis wort meh. Würkli keis Wort meh...

I cannot really estimate the the difficulty to understand different accents of high german as another high german speaking buddy but I can definitely confirm that it is (for me at last) a problem to understand the different accents in swiss german. And this begins not to far away from my home town. Thanks to the influence of other languages (French, Italian, Rumantsch) swiss german sounds sometimes like a really big ... chrüsimüsi (in lack of a better word :smallwink:)
Sometimes it can happen (and i know such places) that the older people from a smal village in the mountain speaks in a way that even the people in the villages at the foot of that mountain cannot understand it.

But thanks to modern communication and the posibility to use a car (:smallbiggrin:) this differences in swiss german disappear more and more.

Another thing I noticed is that it is much easier to understand the different accents of "high german" (some of the worsest too) as a swiss german speaker. The oder way around each "high german" speaker I met had much more trouble to understand swiss german.


PS: I just have to say it: "Chuchichästli" :smallamused:

[Frozen_Feet]

This is maybe the umpteenth time I bring it up on these forums, but I find it exceedingly funny the English word for Schadenfreude is, well, Schadenfreude, a direct loan from German. Instead of "Harm's Joy" I intuitively expected it to be, since that's what Schadenfreude means, and what the Finnish equivalent ("Vahingonilo") also means. It blew my mind that English resorts to poorly-localized loanwords in case of such a basic concept. XD

[KuReshtin]

This is maybe the umpteenth time I bring it up on these forums, but I find it exceedingly funny the English word for Schadenfreude is, well, Schadenfreude, a direct loan from German. Instead of "Harm's Joy" I intuitively expected it to be, since that's what Schadenfreude means, and what the Finnish equivalent ("Vahingonilo") also means. It blew my mind that English resorts to poorly-localized loanwords in case of such a basic concept. XD

Same with 'smorgasbord' which is a direct loaner from the Swedish 'Smörgåsbord' (literally 'sandwich table'), only without the Swedish-specific letters.
It still means the same thing; a buffet-style setup with a lot of different options to eat.

[Eldan]

The OP's link is to my ears firmly in the camp german category.

So, out of interest:
What does this sound like? (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bESS6fhJ03s)

[Ayron]

So, out of interest:
What does this sound like? (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bESS6fhJ03s)

legendary. :smallsmile:
ds Totämügerli by Franz Hohler. He uses words they even not exist but you still can figure out the meenings of them by just listening to the whole story... my deepest respect. My bad I dont understand bernese german all to well :smallfrown:

There are plenty of borrowed german words in english :smallamused: like kindergarten or rucksack

[WalkingTarget]

This is maybe the umpteenth time I bring it up on these forums, but I find it exceedingly funny the English word for Schadenfreude is, well, Schadenfreude, a direct loan from German. Instead of "Harm's Joy" I intuitively expected it to be, since that's what Schadenfreude means, and what the Finnish equivalent ("Vahingonilo") also means. It blew my mind that English resorts to poorly-localized loanwords in case of such a basic concept. XD


Same with 'smorgasbord' which is a direct loaner from the Swedish 'Smörgåsbord' (literally 'sandwich table'), only without the Swedish-specific letters.
It still means the same thing; a buffet-style setup with a lot of different options to eat.

Ersatz, Kindergarten, Poltergeist, Zeitgeist, the list goes on - and not just German. English doesn't let a little thing like being in a different language stop us from spotting a good piece of vocabulary when we see one.

Oh, a brief look shows me that Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_English_loanwords_by_country_or_language_ of_origin) is well aware of the phenomenon.

[Eldan]

See, German has, of course, loanwords too. They just tend to Germanify (loose translation of "eindeutschen") them.

Well, and there's the ridiculous amount of horribly pronounced English vocabulary you'll here in any business discussion, but that's something else.

[Mina Kobold]

Same with 'smorgasbord' which is a direct loaner from the Swedish 'Smörgåsbord' (literally 'sandwich table'), only without the Swedish-specific letters.
It still means the same thing; a buffet-style setup with a lot of different options to eat.

That is not entirely correct.

Smørrebrød/Smörgås/Smørbrød is only one piece of (almost always rye) bread with toppings and despite being called Open Sandwich in English has nothing to do with a sandwich and pre-dates it by a few centuries.

And now you know!

Anyway, wish I could say any more than that but my feeble knowledge of German comes entirely from the similarities to my native language, as I chose French in school instead.

I believed it a more hilarity-potent language.

[term1nally s1ck]

So, out of interest:
What does this sound like? (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bESS6fhJ03s)

I listened to it once while watching it, couldn't place it, and realised my mistake. Someone who looks so jolly is hard to recognise in the angry accent category, try listening while in another window and it's unmistakeable, though. He sounds like a bond villain in his monologue of doom. (with the exception of when he seems to be speaking in the voice of a woman.)

[GolemsVoice]

I take great joy in hearing dialects of all sorts, and have made it my mission to have at least a passing familiarity with all the dialects of my home region, Franconia. (except for Oberpfälzerisch, because, really)

Now that I study at Passau, I have the great pleasure to listen to the delightful Niederbayrisch of the town's inhabitants, as well as the other dialects. (which, for some odd reason, all seem to be Swabes.)


Franconia, that's where "die Hasen Hosn hasn, und die Hosen Husn hasn"

[KuReshtin]

That is not entirely correct.

Smørrebrød/Smörgås/Smørbrød is only one piece of (almost always rye) bread with toppings and despite being called Open Sandwich in English has nothing to do with a sandwich and pre-dates it by a few centuries.

And now you know!


I beg to differ. There is no other handy translation for smörgås into English other than (open) sandwich, and a 'sandwich' isn't only defined by being stuff stuffed between two slices of bread.

Google translate translates the word smörgås to sandwich.

The wikipedia states that:


A sandwich is a food item, often consisting of two or more slices of bread with one or more fillings between them, or one slice of bread with a topping or toppings, commonly called an open sandwich.

Just because it can also be called an 'open sandwich' doesn't mean that it's not a sandwich. Therefore, the translation of smörgåsbord would be 'sandwich table'.

Edit:

Also, again quoting Wikipedia, the opening sentence on the Swedish article for 'smörgås' states that it consists of at least one slice of bread with one or several fillings, which means that a 'smörgås' can also be what you would think of as a traditional sandwich. The Swedish 'smörgås' doesn't really care about what type of bread you use either. Doesn't have to be rye bread. That's more of a Danish thing, I'd say.

[Mina Kobold]

I beg to differ. There is no other handy translation for smörgås into English other than (open) sandwich, and a 'sandwich' isn't only defined by being stuff stuffed between two slices of bread.

Google translate translates the word smörgås to sandwich.

The wikipedia states that:


Just because it can also be called an 'open sandwich' doesn't mean that it's not a sandwich. Therefore, the translation of smörgåsbord would be 'sandwich table'.

Bread baser and tartine are suggested by Wikipedia, and I still want it to be called something like buttered bread or toppingsbread. They sound funnier. :3

It also states that:
The term "sandwich" is occasionally used (informally) in reference to open-faced sandwiches, but the term "sandwich" more formally refers to a dish with two slices of bread with a filling between them, not on top. The open-faced "sandwich" also has a unique history, originating between the 6th and 16th centuries, with stale slices of bread used as plates called "Trenchers" (whereas its relative, the modern sandwich traces its roots to the Earl of Sandwich instead).

So to me you are giving credit to the Wright brothers for the quadrupled earthling-driven wagon.

Or the steam locomotive, which would make for some awe-inspiring steampunk so let's give them credit for it anyway! :D

*Flies off in flying locomotive*

PS: No offence meant, if anyone is offended I shall give them e-hugs to make up for it.

EDIT: Point taken about the rye bread, but if Smörgås can be sandwiches but not always are wouldn't a sandwich be a type of smörgås then? If it is I will now call all sandwiches smörgås just to onfuse my parents. :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

krüsch


Chuchichästli

Wie bitte? AKA, what?

[Frozen_Feet]

Ersatz, Kindergarten, Poltergeist, Zeitgeist, the list goes on - and not just German. English doesn't let a little thing like being in a different language stop us from spotting a good piece of vocabulary when we see one.

Oh, a brief look shows me that Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_English_loanwords_by_country_or_language_ of_origin) is well aware of the phenomenon.

To reiterate, it's not just the fact it's a loanword, it's fact that the concept is so basic and could be expressed perfectly well in established English words that makes it funny to me.

For the record, using "Ersatz" in place of "substitute" strikes me as equally odd. :smalltongue: The only thing I can see going for it is shortness.

[Yora]

My brother showed my a quote from Simpsons or something like that some days ago:
"It's amazing how i can feel sorry for you and hate you at the same time. I'm sure there is a German word for it"

And that sounds exactly like the kind of complex situation we have specific words for. We had an english Professor (who worked in Germany for a long time) some weeks ago, who insited on using the word Gestalt even when speaking in english, because the english shape just didn't worked for the concept he had in mind.
(The way it's used in D&D has nothing to do with the german word.)

Even funnier to me are lots of supposedly "yiddish" words. Lots of them are just regular gemran words spoken in a funny voice.


Wie bitte? AKA, what?

Krüsch is a word I don't know from any other languages in germany. But I think it's very similar to the english "picky". Being highly particular wich things you eat with a snobbish revulsion towards everything else. If you have a cat and it kept looking from its food to you, back to the food, and to you again without touching it, that's exactly what krüsch means. :smallbiggrin:

[Zen Monkey]

I learned my German pronunciation from singers like Till Lindemann, Dero Goi, and Alex Wesselsky. This has produced a habit of rolling my R's, which I'm told brings to mind the speech habits of a certain infamous politictian, unfortunately. Combine that with a deep voice, and I get told that my German sounds 'evil.'

[GolemsVoice]

Well, wählerisch comes to mind.

[KuReshtin]

EDIT: Point taken about the rye bread, but if Smörgås can be sandwiches but not always are wouldn't a sandwich be a type of smörgås then? If it is I will now call all sandwiches smörgås just to onfuse my parents. :smalltongue:

In the Swedish language, all sandwiches are smörgåsar.
Again, from the Wiki:


Sandwich är i England en smörgås bestående av två skivor formfranska (ljust eller grövre) med pålägget emellan.

Differentiating them would be like claiming that a penguin is not a bird because it can't fly. The base principle of them are the same, it's just that the design is slightly different.

[The Unborne]

To reiterate, it's not just the fact it's a loanword, it's fact that the concept is so basic and could be expressed perfectly well in established English words that makes it funny to me.

For the record, using "Ersatz" in place of "substitute" strikes me as equally odd. :smalltongue: The only thing I can see going for it is shortness.

It's probably because the concept is so basic in German that English uses it. Before searching up the word, I had the suspicion that it wasn't a true morpheme, but to someone who doesn't know German or any of its root words having one word representing an entire concept is much better than having to explain a concept with two or more words.

Take for example, "Harm's Joy," it probably is a direct translation but it doesn't seem to be a good connection for how I and probably others learned the word: "Joy at other's misfortune." That and one word tends to be better for concepts. I know when I write about everyday life in a Russian context I use the term byt because it represents all that is mundane in everyday life (while also carrying over ideas of the unclean, irrational, etc.)

[Mina Kobold]

In the Swedish language, all sandwiches are smörgåsar.
Again, from the Wiki:



Differentiating them would be like claiming that a penguin is not a bird because it can't fly. The base principle of them are the same, it's just that the design is slightly different.

Hurrah! :D

I saw it more like claiming all birds are penguins but I am probably wrong and it's not like Danish has weirder linguistic oddities. -_-

Like calling a baguette a flúte, I am still flabbergasted at that. O.o

On a more relevant note, the pastry "Danish" is called "Viennese bread" in Danish.

[Yora]

I learned my German pronunciation from singers like Till Lindemann, Dero Goi, and Alex Wesselsky. This has produced a habit of rolling my R's, which I'm told brings to mind the speech habits of a certain infamous politictian, unfortunately. Combine that with a deep voice, and I get told that my German sounds 'evil.'
They obviously use not their normal speaking voice when they sing, but all of them speak a very good standard german. When it comes to pronounciation, I think they are excelent examples for foreigners to learn speaking without a strong accent.

[Worlok]

Combine that with a deep voice, and I get told that my German sounds 'evil.'

I think they are excelent examples for foreigners to learn speaking without a strong accent.
And also to scare other foreigners, apparently, but that's neither here nor there. :smallbiggrin:


This is maybe the umpteenth time I bring it up on these forums, but I find it exceedingly funny the English word for Schadenfreude is, well, Schadenfreude, a direct loan from German. Instead of "Harm's Joy" I intuitively expected it to be, since that's what Schadenfreude means, and what the Finnish equivalent ("Vahingonilo") also means.
It's actually "Joy about harm (done to another)", since "Harm's Joy" would be Schadensfreude. And also make no sense except in works featuring some sort of character that represents or embodies the very concept of "harm". By the way, Harm, as in, with a capital H, is actually a German word more or less identical to the English term harm, as in, non-capitalised. Which is why German harmlos directly translates into English harmless. Harn, on the other hand, remains urine. They really shouldn't be mixed up. Unless you're some sort of reverse bombardeer beetle. :smallbiggrin:

In the words of those people from Avenue Q:
"Schadenfreude", huh? What's that? Some kind of Na*i word?
Yup! It's German for "happiness at the misfortune of others".
"Happiness at the misfortune of others" ... That is German!(*)

(*) It isn't. Often.

Also, I'm afraid I'm having way to much fun with my language-related slapsprickery. :smallbiggrin:

[Keld Denar]

Schadenfreude
I think the term is best described in the words of Gary and Nikki:
Gary:
Right now you are down and out
And feelin' really crappy.

Nikki:
Iíll say.

Gary:
And when I see how sad you are,
It sorta makes me happy.

Nikki:
Happy?

Gary:
Sorry Nikki.
Human nature-
Nothing I can do.
It's Schadenfreude
Making me feel glad that I'm not you.

Nikki:
Now that's not very nice Gary.

Gary:
I didn't say it was nice,
But everybody does it.
Dya ever clap when a waitress falls
And drops a tray of glasses?

Nikki:
Yea.

Gary:
And ain't it fun to watch figure skaters
Fallin' on their asses?

Nikki:
Sure.

Gary:
Don't you feel all warm and cozy
Watching people out in the rain?

Nikki:
You bet.

Gary:
That's

Both:
Schadenfreude.

Gary:
People taking pleasure in your pain.

Nikki:
Oh. Schadenfreude, huh? Whats that? Some kind of Nazi word?

Gary:
Yup. Its German for happiness at the misfortune of others.

Nikki:
Happiness at the misfortune of others
That is German!
Watching a vegetarian
Being told she just ate chicken.

Gary:
Or watching a frat boy
Realize just what he put his **** in.

Nikki:
Being on an elevator when somebody
Shouts Hold the door!

Gary:
Oh yea!

Both:
No!
Schadenfreude

Gary:
**** you lady!
That's what stairs are for!

Nikki:
Ooh- How about:
Straight A students getting B's

Gary:
Exes getting STDs

Nikki:
Waking doormen from their naps

Gary:
Watching tourists reading maps

Nikki:
Football players getting tackled

Gary:
CEOs getting shackled

Nikki:
Watching actors never reach

Both:
The ending of their Oscar speech!
Schadenfreude!
Schadenfreude!
Schadenfreude!
Schadenfreude!

Gary:
The world needs people like you and me
Who've been knocked around by fate
Cause when people see us
They don't want to be us
And that makes them feel great

Nikki:
Sure.
We provide a vital service to society.

Both:
You and me!
Schadenfreude
Making the world a better place
Making the world a better place
Making the world a better place to be!

Gary:
S-C-H-A-D-E-N-F-R-E-U-D-E!


They obviously use not their normal speaking voice when they sing, but all of them speak a very good standard german.

Heck, you don't even have to SPEAK a language to sing in it and make it sound like you are a native speaker. I mean...look at ABBA!

EDIT: OMG!! Worlok ninja'ed me on the Avenue Q reference by like, 4 minutes....GRRRRR!!!!

[Yora]

When it comes to native english speakers using german words, it's best not to even try pointing out gramatical errors. There are so many tiny alterations and additional letters you have to make to almost all words depending on their position within a sentence, that just don't exist in english. So they usually don't even think of looking out for such mistakes.

That's the really nice thing about Japanese. It has no gramatical gender and doesn't distinguish between first, second, and third person, or singular and plural.

Ger: ich gehe, du gehst, er/sie/es geht, wir gehen, ihr geht, sie gehen.
Eng: I walk, you walk, he/she/it walks, we walk, you walk, they walk.
Jap: ikimasu.

People who speak english won't notice the advantage. People who speak any other languages will. :smallbiggrin:

[Worlok]

Even funnier to me are lots of supposedly "yiddish" words. Lots of them are just regular gemran words spoken in a funny voice.
Einspruch! They may sound like that, but that's because both languages are derived from the source material, what with Holy Roman Empires and Diasporai being all up in each other's private space most of the time. Most are written differently and actually, modern German would technically sound like Yiddish in a funny voice, age of lingual conventions and all that. :smalltongue:

[Mina Kobold]

Heck, you don't even have to SPEAK a language to sing in it and make it sound like you are a native speaker. I mean...look at ABBA!

But they're Swedish.

And their songs all have English or French titles...

I am so confused. @_@

[Yora]

Maybe they couldn't speak english?

[Worlok]

But they're Swedish.

And their songs all have English or French titles...

I am so confused. @_@
Ah ja, ze noble European art of ze bilinkual mindskrew. She is... glorious. :smallwink: Don't worry though, confusion is a common response of today's audiences to the wonder that is ABBA. :smallbiggrin:

[Yora]

Confusion is my response to the entire popular culture from 1961 to 1980. Then it turns to pitty.

[Mina Kobold]

Ah ja, ze noble European art of ze bilinkual mindskrew. She is... glorious. :smallwink: Don't worry though, confusion is a common response of today's audiences to the wonder that is ABBA. :smallbiggrin:

That's at least trilingual, but what confuses me is that they are apparently known for singing in German yet none of their songs appears to be so after a quick Wikipedia search.

Also, European mind-screw doesn't work on Europeans so nyah! >:P

Especially since certain high schoolers use half as much English as their native language in any given conversation and yet are completely unable to speak it. :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

But they're Swedish.

And their songs all have English or French titles...

Exactly. And from what I understand, they spoke neither English or French when they started singing in each. They might now, but not back at the height of their popularity. They just learned how to sing in it.

Do you honestly think that most people who sing in Latin can speak it?

[Zen Monkey]

A number of European singers have learned songs in English phonetically, and just by repetition, without actually speaking the language. I remember reading that in the 80's group Roxette, the male vocalist understood English but the female did not, and nobody would have really noticed otherwise. I started learning German the same way, singing songs and then learning the words so that they fit in like puzzle pieces.

[Worlok]

Also, European mind-screw doesn't work on Europeans so nyah! >:P
Hush! You are ruinink ze meister-plan! :smallfurious:

But yes, I agree. The dichotomy of speaking English and abusing it encountered in the common high schooler definitely works in favor of mindskrew-resistance. :smallbiggrin: Which, technically, only becomes trilingual if a certain ABBA song encompasses both French and English in the case at hand. :smalltongue:

[Mina Kobold]

Exactly. And from what I understand, they spoke neither English or French when they started singing in each. They might now, but not back at the height of their popularity. They just learned how to sing in it.

Do you honestly think that most people who sing in Latin can speak it?

But English is and was required in pre-high school by law! O.O

... No, but Latin's a dead language. X.X

Which is a bad excuse, they should learn it.

It makes everything sound profound and wise! :D

[Keld Denar]

I started learning German the same way, singing songs and then learning the words so that they fit in like puzzle pieces.
I maintain my german skill primarily through german music. My opportunities to actually speak it are limited, so I just sing along with my favorite groups like Die Toten Hosen, Oomph!, Absolute Beginner, D-Flame, etc. Yea, I can simultaneously like punk and hip-hop, so nya!


Which, technically, only becomes trilingual if a certain ABBA song encompasses both French and English in the case at hand. :smalltongue:

There is a song by Apocalyptica featuring Marta Jandova that has 3 versions, one in English (How Far), one in German (Wie Weit), and one in French (En Vie). Surprisingly, I like the French version best, despite the fact that I speak English and German.

[Worlok]

It makes everything sound profound and wise!
Dependingus onus howus youus useus itus. :smalltongue: No really, I agreeus.


There is a song by Apocalyptica featuring Marta Jandova that has 3 versions, one in English (How Far), one in German (Wie Weit), and one in French (En Vie). Surprisingly, I like the French version best, despite the fact that I speak English and German.
Welcome to the club, then. Same here. :smallsmile:

[Castaras]

Eakingspay Iglatinpay isway ethay estbay Iway ancay oday anguagelay-iseway.

Je parle une petite francais, mais je n'ai pas bien ca.

Yay for being an english speaker. Want to learn more languages, but not very good at English to begin with. :smalltongue:

[Mina Kobold]

Dependingus onus howus youus useus itus. :smalltongue: No really, I agreeus.

Dear flip-flopping grasshopper that's badly done fake-Latin.

Kevækus confusus est.

Good luck guessing my fake-Latin! :smalltongue:

[CurlyKitGirl]

Eakingspay Iglatinpay isway ethay estbay Iway ancay oday anguagelay-iseway.

Je parle une petite francais, mais je n'ai pas bien ca.

Yay for being an english speaker. Want to learn more languages, but not very good at English to begin with. :smalltongue:

It's probably wrong that the moment I saw the French I wanted to correct it.

But all this is a jumble to me, did two years of German, hated it.
And yet I can read Old English easily enough if you give me a dictionary to look up the infinitive verb forms. Seven and more verb classes . . .

[Castaras]

It's probably wrong that the moment I saw the French I wanted to correct it.


Go ahead, I know I'm crap at French. I'm amazed I managed to get a B at GCSE. :smallbiggrin:

[Worlok]

Kevækus confusus est.

Good luck guessing my fake-Latin! :smalltongue:
Confusa es. Indubitate. :smallbiggrin:

[Mina Kobold]

Confusa es. Indubitate. :smallbiggrin:

Rectus.

Funny how confusus has little to do with being confused, isn't it?

Anyway, tu loquentes lingua Latina? Sum impressa.

EDIT: (Sorry, it means: Correct. You speak Latin? I'm impressed)

[Eldan]

I listened to it once while watching it, couldn't place it, and realised my mistake. Someone who looks so jolly is hard to recognise in the angry accent category, try listening while in another window and it's unmistakeable, though. He sounds like a bond villain in his monologue of doom. (with the exception of when he seems to be speaking in the voice of a woman.)

Really now.

Well, Hohler does not all that have strong a Bernese accent, but it's regularly voted as the nicest Swiss accent. Because it's the slowest and calmest, most of the time.

[Asta Kask]

Probably the nicest Swedish dialect. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHLSj7-2pUg)

Dalmål.

[Keld Denar]

BTW, FYI, I know this is a language thread, and whatnot, but according to teh roolz (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1), I think you have to provide a translation to anything you post solely in another language. I've been trying to set a good example myself, but yea...lets be INCLUSIVE, not EXCLUSIVE in our language and dialect discussion. <3

[Zen Monkey]

Because I'm still learning German, accents can be confusing and sound like it should be a different word (assumed to be one I don't know).

The biggest give-away for me, is varations of ich (I). The ich/ish/ick pronunciations tend offer good hints about someone's dialect. I'm told that the soft 'ish' is more Austrian, and the hard 'ick' is Berlin (or Kennedy, I suppose).

[Telonius]

The most interesting accent I've heard in Germany was right in and around Noerdlingen and Oettingen. I believe the locals called it "Riesisch" (i.e. from the Noerdlinger-Ries). It had a lot in common with typical Bavarian, but seemed to have a bit of Schwaebisch in there too. I know that "lyrical" is a horrible description for a language, but it's the only word that comes to mind.

[Worlok]

Anyway, tu loquentes lingua Latina? Sum impressa.
Well, yeah, a little. I'd have responded in Latin, but Keld is right with that translation deal, and translating casual conversation held in Latin sort of robs the whole thing's grandeur. :smallsigh: :smallwink:

For our borderline-buddhist tree-dwelling mammalian: "Isch" crops up all over the place in all sorts of dialects, but it is slightly more common in Austria. Berlinerisch has "Icke", rather than "Ick", which is something you should be careful not to mix up, because some of us are nuts like that. "Ick", however, is also fairly common. Once you've learned Standard German, you're good, though. Should you ever end up in a dialect zone, it tends to transform itself over time, anyway. :smallbiggrin:

[Frozen_Feet]

Take for example, "Harm's Joy," it probably is a direct translation but it doesn't seem to be a good connection for how I and probably others learned the word: "Joy at other's misfortune." That and one word tends to be better for concepts. I know when I write about everyday life in a Russian context I use the term byt because it represents all that is mundane in everyday life (while also carrying over ideas of the unclean, irrational, etc.)

But that's part of why it's funny. Both Finnish and German take their respective words for Harm and Joy and cram them together to give the concept a name; the very idea that English people somehow averted doing the very same thing before hearing the loanword blows my mind. XP



That's the really nice thing about Japanese. It doesn't distinguish between ... singular and plural.

This is something that blew my mind when I learned it. I was like, "It doesn't do what now?" There not being a specific plural form of words was so foreign to me.

[KuReshtin]

Probably the nicest Swedish dialect. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHLSj7-2pUg)

Dalmål.

Hehe. I agree that it's pretty good.

I particularly liked that the "Any centerback from any football team" turned into "Göran Arnberg in Brage". :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Oh!

I thought that sentence didn't sound very similar :smalltongue:

[Mina Kobold]

This is something that blew my mind when I learned it. I was like, "It doesn't do what now?" There not being a specific plural form of words was so foreign to me.

Fish doesn't have a plural either, it's just one fish, two fish and laser fish.

Also, why am I the only one who don't know any Japanese. :(

I wanna learn it!

[Frozen_Feet]

I don't really now Japanese either, I just know a few interesting bits and pieces of the language is structured due to being huge sucker for Japanese popular culture.

And "Fish" is a special case in English. It's one of those stupid words you have to memorize, most other stuff follows the rules.

... funnily enough, I can't actually tell if Finnish has such special cases. I do remember that I hated to learn them in Swedish and French.

[Yora]

Yay for being an english speaker. Want to learn more languages, but not very good at English to begin with. :smalltongue:
You can't be really good at english. You can only work with what you've got, and in this case it just isn't that much. :smallbiggrin:

[Mina Kobold]

I don't really now Japanese either, I just know a few interesting bits and pieces of the language is structured due to being huge sucker for Japanese popular culture.

And "Fish" is a special case in English. It's one of those stupid words you have to memorize, most other stuff follows the rules.

... funnily enough, I can't actually tell if Finnish has such special cases. I do remember that I hated to learn them in Swedish and French.

Better than me, all I know is how to address people and how to say good day and thank you.

Try Danish, we have at least four ways of pluralising a word and the only way to know which word uses which is by memorising it. Fun! :D

I never had Finnish so I can't tell, but probably.

[Asta Kask]

... funnily enough, I can't actually tell if Finnish has such special cases. I do remember that I hated to learn them in Swedish and French.

Susi suden sutta?

Anyway, Finnish is fairly regular because it's a fairly young language. When a language is codified, the irregularities tend to get smoothed out because those who codify language hate irregularities. Unless they're Germans.

[Zar Peter]

Susi suden sutta?

Anyway, Finnish is fairly regular because it's a fairly young language. When a language is codified, the irregularities tend to get smoothed out because those who codify language hate irregularities. Unless they're Germans.

I really love the word "Knie" (knee) in German.

One knee is "Ein Knie", spoken knii, the "ie" is a long i
Plural: Two knee are "Zwei Knie", spoken knie, the "ie" is no longer but with the spoken e.

German is very interesting, you always find something new, even if you're a native speaker. I'm happy that I haven't had to learn it as new language.

[Eldan]

Heh. We drop half of that in Swiss German. It's a weird language/dialect, but at least we made the grammar simpler.

Eis Chnü, zwei Chnü. Pronounced the same.

Also, we did away with most possible past tenses.

German: "Ich ging" (I went) or "Ich bin gegangen" or "Ich war gegangen"
Swiss German: "I be gange". One tense to rule them all.

Edit: forgot the exception to those knees above, in some dialects it's "chnöi" for the plural.

[Asta Kask]

The awful German Language. (http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html)

By Mark Twain.

[ForzaFiori]

English may have a billion or so loanwords, but at least we Anglicize them. I'm taking Italian right now, and it's amazing the number of words that are EXACTLY the same as in english. for instance: "Fare shopping" is "to go shopping" and "sono single" is "I am single". Football and Weekend are both taken directly, and a dinner jacket is called a "smoking". They sometimes even pronounce them the english way instead of italian, which is REALLY strange.

To make it worse, the sounds that C and CH make are switched, with CH making a K sound, and C (sometimes) making a CH sound.

[Telonius]

Fish doesn't have a plural either, it's just one fish, two fish and laser fish.

Unless you're swimmin wit da fishes, but that's another special case. :smallbiggrin:

[Yora]

The awful German Language. (http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html)

By Mark Twain.
Thanks for mentioning that one. I completely forgot about it.
It's a bit dated and some of the words he describs are no longer used that way. But he gives a pretty accurate account in all. :smallbiggrin:


Our word Toothbrush is more powerful than that.

[Partysan]

My favourite loan from German is "to abseil". I really broke down laughing.

And to those people who say Japanese is easier than German - are your freakin' kidding me? I mean, I'm not saying anything against, like, the whole grammar chaning depending on who you speak with and how polite you are, but having two syllable alphabets at once and then learning thousands of Kanji on top of it, and not being able to know what a word means without seeing the Kanji because they all sound the same? Makes for great punning potential, yes, but even worse to learn than Persian, and Persian is really bad because they don't write out most of the vowels so you can't read any word you don't know...

[Yora]

Hope digging this up is okay:

With the thread on words that sound like the object they name does, a few strange words came to my mind, and I wondered what similar things othrer languages have:

The word I was thinking of is "Extrawurst".
Which directly means "additional sausage". To say that someone does not get an Extrawurst means that he does not get any speacial treatment. No idea where that expression originated, but I assume it's from demanding to get an additional sassauge to your meal.
But you don't! You get the same as everyone else! :smallbiggrin:

Others are "Spargeltarzan" and "Dreikäsehoch". Which literarily mean "asparagus tarzan" and "three chesse tall". The first refers to skinny young men and boys, especially when shirtless. The second one means a smug kid, though I have really no idea about the origin of that. :smallbiggrin:

There are lots more, but all I can think of would be censored here because of the differences in american and german profanity. (I never realized how much germans swear all the time.)

Do you know other funny expressions in your languages that don't make any sense when translated directly?

[term1nally s1ck]

Raining cats and dogs.

The french say 'stuck me to the ceiling with sellotape' to mean the same as 'blew me away'.

[Yora]

For that we have "knocked me out of my socks". :smallbiggrin:

[term1nally s1ck]

Ooh, we use 'knocked my socks off' in english too..

[Yora]

Lot's of german expressions are the same in english. Either they have the same origin a long way back, or they are recent direct translations. But since many don't make sense in either language, direct translations are not a problem.

However, I've seen a site that claimed that in many such cases the german version is a lot more macabre.
For example "the thorn in your side" is "the thorn in our eye". ^^

[term1nally s1ck]

O_o'''

Yikes. What's the most gruesome one? :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

From what I've heard, Dreikäsehoch literally comes from the size of the kid: as tall as three cheeses stacked on each other. For that to make sense, you'll have to remember that in Switzerland, they still make cheeses more than a meter in diameter (three to four feet) and more than thirty centimetres tall (about a foot). So, a Three Cheese Tall kid is somewhere between three and four feet, 90 to 120 centimetres.

[Keld Denar]

Oh hey...

So, German tongue twisters. When I lived in germany, I only learned two...

Blaukraut bleibt Blaukraut und Brautkleid bleibt Brautkleid.
(Blue kraut remains blue kraut and wedding dress remains wedding dress)

Ich koche kirsch Kuchen in die Kirche Küche.
(I'm cooking cherry cake in the church kitchen)

Any other cool ones?

[Yora]

Hm, possibly "Am I supposed to carve one from my ribs?", which is used when someone wants to have something that you quite obviously don't have right now.
And for "that could go badly" we say "that could get in the eye".
Apparently the expression "break a leg" exists in english to mean something like "good luck". In german is "breaking a leg and the neck".

[Eldan]

Oh hey...

So, German tongue twisters. When I lived in germany, I only learned two...

Blaukraut bleibt Blaukraut und Brautkleid bleibt Brautkleid.
(Blue kraut remains blue kraut and wedding dress remains wedding dress)

Ich koche kirsch Kuchen in die Kirche Küche.
(I'm cooking cherry cake in the church kitchen)

Any other cool ones?


One that only works in swiss German, I think:

De Pabscht het z'spiez s'schpeck-bschteck z'schpoot bschtelt.

The pope ordered the bacon cuttlery too late in Spiez (a town).

[Keld Denar]

Wow...you people talk funny...
j/k, I know Swiss german is fine...
:smallcool:

[Yora]

The Blaukraut one is really awful. I don't know anyone who can pull that one of. Similar is

Fischers Fritze fischt frische Fische. Frische Fische fischt Fischers Fritze...
Fishers Fritz is fishing fresh fish. Fresh fish is fishers Fritz fisching. Also quite a tough one, but I think not quite as hard.

Also, German does have quite a number of puns, though we normally don't recognize it as a distinc category of humor.
And our grammar allows for some interesting groupings of personal pronouns:

Die, die die, die die Diebe ausreißen ließen,
der Polizei melden, bekommen eine Belohnung!
Those, who report those, who allowed the thieves to escape, will get a reward.
"Die" mostly means "the", but in this case also "those" and "who".

[Asta Kask]

Finnish - 'put the cat on the table' means 'talk plainly, directly'

'eat something with long teeth' means 'eat it reluctantly'

[Blisstake]

It always seems like people learning german like talking about german more than people learning other languages. I don't have anything to base that off of beyond my own experiences, but it seems interesting...

Anyway, I noticed something about English, French, and Spanish that has captured my interest, and I was wondering if there's an explaination for it.

In English, "right" can mean either the direction (not left), or the right to do something (right to free speech). Despite these having completely different meanings, it's the same case in spanish. "Derecho" means both the direction and the right to something. I asked a Canadian friend who speaks French, and she told me the words are very similar (although not identical) in French as well.

Anyone have an explaination for this? Generally I've noticed that most words in english or spanish that have multiple meanings don't translate the same for both meanings.

[Eldan]

Don't forget my favourite:

Wenn hinter Fliegen Fliegen fliegen, fliegen Fliegen Fliegen nach.

If/when flies are flying behind flies, flies are flying behind flies.

[Asta Kask]

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. A valid sentence in english.

[Eldan]

Buffalo is a verb too?

[Yora]

I think its an outdated term for bullying.

[term1nally s1ck]

mhmm, and buffalo buffalo is the scientific name for a buffalo, or something like that...

[Yora]

I think yesterday I read about a chinese poem that consists of 92 times "shi".

There's also an anime "Sumomomomomomo".
It's names after the tongue twister "Sumomomomomomomomomomosumomomomomomomomonouchi".
Wonderfull how some languages don't use spaces between words. :smallbiggrin:

[Maralais]

It always seems like people learning german like talking about german more than people learning other languages. I don't have anything to base that off of beyond my own experiences, but it seems interesting...

Anyway, I noticed something about English, French, and Spanish that has captured my interest, and I was wondering if there's an explaination for it.

In English, "right" can mean either the direction (not left), or the right to do something (right to free speech). Despite these having completely different meanings, it's the same case in spanish. "Derecho" means both the direction and the right to something. I asked a Canadian friend who speaks French, and she told me the words are very similar (although not identical) in French as well.

Anyone have an explaination for this? Generally I've noticed that most words in english or spanish that have multiple meanings don't translate the same for both meanings.

Same words in French, droit can mean both right direction and right.

Also, in French, I believe they use "jeter l'argent par les fenêtres", which means something like "throwing money out of the windows", meaning spending too much for useless stuff.

Turkish has some interesting ones as well(actually, our Turkish teachers claim that Turkish has an unmatched amount of phrasal verbs and idioms compared to other languages, but I doubt it), like "his/her skirts are ringing", meaning the person is excited.

[Mina Kobold]

Anyone have an explaination for this? Generally I've noticed that most words in english or spanish that have multiple meanings don't translate the same for both meanings.

Old superstition about left-handedness being a sign of the Devil, as far as I can tell.

Thus why most lefties were forced to write with their right hand back in the day and why the word 'sinister' (Latin for 'left') is a negative word to this day.

Hope that helps. :smallsmile:

Can't remember any odd Danish tongue twisters myself except a children's one that I made at a game about this kind of stuff once.


Måske måske, måske ikke. Måske i en moske i Moskva.

Which means 'Maybe maybe, maybe not. Maybe in a Mosque in Moscow'

Not that good, I'll see if I can find some better ones. ^_^

[Eldan]

German has that too, kind off. Rechts is the direction. Recht is the right to something. It's also the genitive case of Right.

[RedDeerJebediah]

Can't remember any odd Danish tongue twisters myself except a children's one that I made at a game about this kind of stuff once.

Which means 'Maybe maybe, maybe not. Maybe in a Mosque in Moscow'

Not that good, I'll see if I can find some better ones. ^_^

The Mosque one is nice :smalltongue:

"Jeg plukker blå frugt med en grå, brugt frugtplukker."
("I pluck fruit with a gray, used fruit-plucker")

"Farfar, får får får? Nej, får får ikke får, får får lam."
(A pun on the words for "sheep" and "to get" in present tense being identical. "Farfar" is just fatherfather, as in the father of a father)

"Hundrede pund hunpuddelhundeuld."
("A hundred pounds of she-poodle wool.")

"Fem flade flødeboller på et fladt flødebollefad."
(A "flødebolle" is a sort of candy. The sentence means "five flat (flødebolle)s on a flat (flødebolle) tray.")

That's all I know off the top of my head.

[Yora]

Also, in French, I believe they use "jeter l'argent par les fenêtres", which means something like "throwing money out of the windows", meaning spending too much for useless stuff.
Funny, we have exactly that expression in germany. It's also very common.

[Zar Peter]

Lot's of german expressions are the same in english. Either they have the same origin a long way back, or they are recent direct translations. But since many don't make sense in either language, direct translations are not a problem.

However, I've seen a site that claimed that in many such cases the german version is a lot more macabre.
For example "the thorn in your side" is "the thorn in our eye". ^^

I have a czech working mate and came to the conclusion that czech is even more gruesome.

German (Viennese): Besser ois a Staa am Schedl

Translation: Better than a stone on the head, better than nothing

Czech: Lepsi nes draht v'ocku (I hope I wrote it correct)

Translation: Better than wire in the eye... :smallwink:

[Yora]

There's also a silly one based on the homonym "Arm" which can mean both "arm" and "poor", and the existing expression "arm dran sein", which means being in a pittiful situation, but directly says "being poor attached". I assume in the past "dran" also meant something else than attached.

It goes "Lieber arm dran, als Bein ab". Which means "Better having an arm attached, than a leg cut off". :smallbiggrin:

[Asta Kask]

Tongue-twisters?

She sells sea-shells on the shore. The shells she sells are sea-shells I'm sure.

Kvistfritt kvastskaft (broom-handle without gnarls)

Sex laxar i en lax-ask (six salmons in a salmon-box)

Grön dragon, röd dragon (green tarragon, red tarragon)

And we have the sheep one too.

[KuReshtin]

Tongue-twisters?

She sells sea-shells on the shore. The shells she sells are sea-shells I'm sure.

Kvistfritt kvastskaft (broom-handle without gnarls)

Sex laxar i en lax-ask (six salmons in a salmon-box)

Grön dragon, röd dragon (green tarragon, red tarragon)

And we have the sheep one too.

And the even worse Swedish tongue twister:

Sju sköna sjuksköterskor sköter sju sjösjuka sjömän. (Seven fair nurses cares for seven seasick seamen)

[Brother Oni]

And to those people who say Japanese is easier than German - are your freakin' kidding me? I mean, I'm not saying anything against, like, the whole grammar chaning depending on who you speak with and how polite you are, but having two syllable alphabets at once and then learning thousands of Kanji on top of it, and not being able to know what a word means without seeing the Kanji because they all sound the same?

Good news and bad news - the Japanese only commonly use about 400-odd kanji not thousands. The bad news - they don't use them the same way as the Chinese do, who they borrowed them from in the first place. :smallsigh:

There's a Mandarin tongue twister I know, which renders into English as "14 is 14". In pinyin: sì shí shì sì shí.

As for the 92 shi tongue twister:




施氏食獅史

石室詩士施氏，嗜獅，誓食十獅。
氏時時適市視獅。
十時，適十獅適市。
是時，適施氏適市。
氏視是十獅，恃矢勢，使是十獅逝世。
氏拾是十獅屍，適石室。
石室濕，氏使侍拭石室。
石室拭，氏始試食是十獅。
食時，始識是十獅，實十石獅屍。
試釋是事。

Shī Shì shí shī shǐ

Shíshì shīshì Shī Shì, shì shī, shì shí shí shī.
Shì shíshí shì shì shì shī.
Shí shí, shì shí shī shì shì.
Shì shí, shì Shī Shì shì shì.
Shì shì shì shí shī, shì shǐ shì, shǐ shì shí shī shìshì.
Shì shí shì shí shī shī, shì shíshì.
Shíshì shī, Shì shǐ shì shì shíshì.
Shíshì shì, Shì shǐ shì shí shì shí shī.
Shí shí, shǐ shí shì shí shī, shí shí shí shī shī.
Shì shì shì shì.



For those wondering how it works, it's all tonal inflections of the single syllable. The best english approximation to the flat tone syllable is the word 'suet' as in the pudding, only leaving off the 'et' part.

[Yora]

As en example why Japanese is much easier than german:

Take for example:


I am, you are, he/she/it is, we/you/they are
I/you/he/she/it/we/you/they will be

In German:
Ich bin, du bist, er/sie/es ist, wir/sie sind, ihr seid
Ich werde sein, du wirst sein, er/sie/es wird sein, wir/sie werden sein, ihr werdet sein

In Japanese:
desu

And that's just the verbs. Have fun with articles, adjectives, and adverbs. :smallbiggrin:

[Maralais]

As en example why Japanese is much easier than german:

Take for example:



In German:
Ich bin, du bist, er/sie/es ist, wir/sie sind, ihr seid
Ich werde sein, du wirst sein, er/sie/es wird sein, wir/sie werden sein, ihr werdet sein

In Japanese:
desu

And that's just the verbs. Have fun with articles, adjectives, and adverbs. :smallbiggrin:

And after a long time, Maralais's German improves a tiny bit thanks to Yora! Seriously, I was stuck in perfekt.

[Brother Oni]

And that's just the verbs. Have fun with articles, adjectives, and adverbs. :smallbiggrin:

As a minor point, it should technically be 'wa', but your point still stands.

However:

Watakushi, Watashi, Atashi, Boku, Ore are all commonly used ways of saying 'I', varying as to gender and politeness (both of yourself and in referring to yourself to others).

This is not including slang (Atai) or archaic (Sessha) ways either, each with their own level of politeness.

Then you have fun with name honorifics. :smallbiggrin:

[Yora]

I was thinking along the lines of "I am xzy" and not about "I exist".
But even then, it's not wa. Wa is not only a word that can't be translated, but also a gramatical concept that doesn't exist in germanic and romanic languages.

I think the most similar thing in German would be the sufixes like gehe, gehst, geht. The only thing like that in english would be the s added to he/she/it (he walks).

If one considers the different forms of I as something that evens the scales, that's a personal oppinin, I think. You just learn the words and that's it. But when talking you don't have to go through your mind which gramatical form you know have to use. I think that's a lot easier.

But if anyone insists on learning German, I won't stop you. (Though I firmly believe it's a horrible language to learn. I have a much easier time learning the grammar of foreign languages than memorizing the gramatical rules of my own. :smallbiggrin: )

[Partysan]

Well, I'm a native German anyway. But while German has a needlessly complicated grammar there's no real problem in getting it wrong, while extra grammar for polite speech might be something you'd want to do right. Besides, Japanese has a lot of words that have different Kanji but sound all the same, so you'd never know which one's on right now.

On topic: in Persian there are some really wierd homonyms. For example, the word شسر means lion, milk and water-tap. So if, for some very strange reason, you wanted to tell someone that there was lion's milk coming from the water-tap you'd get some strange looks I'm sure.

[Asta Kask]

Finnish has fifteen cases:

Nominative
Genitive
Accusative
Partitive
Inessive
Elative
Illative
Addesiv
Ablative
Allative
Essive
Exessive (dialectal)
Translative
Instructive
Abessive
Comitative

Adjectives are inflected like nouns. Comparative is made by adding -mpi to the stem. To make the inflecting stem of the comparative, the '-mpi' ending loses its final 'i'. If the syllable context calls for a weak consonant, the '-mp-' becomes '-mm-'. Then '-a-' is added before the actual case ending (or '-i-' in plural).

And yes, people speak this language. And complain about learning Swedish because it's too difficult.

[Yora]

German has four cases:
Nominativ
Genitiv
Dativ
Akkusativ

In recent years, lots of particularly younger people have started to drop the Genitiv completely and instead use just the Dativ where it would be needed. And I think most people don't even notice that by now.

As someone who doesn't really care about the systems of classification of grammar and instead is much more interested in the constant transformations of language, I think the Genitiv in German has become mostly redundant. Using the Dativ instead does not reduce comprehension of a statement at all.

[Partysan]

However even before the Genitiv we lost the Konjunktiv 1 (a form of Subjunctive) which actually makes a difference.

[Maralais]

Ah, the fun I get with my native language being in the same family as Japanese and all my foreign languages being Germanic ones, causing me to have a difficulty in finding similar points between them...

[Xuc Xac]

In English, "right" can mean either the direction (not left), or the right to do something (right to free speech). Despite these having completely different meanings, it's the same case in spanish. "Derecho" means both the direction and the right to something. I asked a Canadian friend who speaks French, and she told me the words are very similar (although not identical) in French as well.

Anyone have an explaination for this? Generally I've noticed that most words in english or spanish that have multiple meanings don't translate the same for both meanings.

Those words all originally meant "correct, proper". The "not left" meaning came as a result of referring to the right hand as the "proper hand" because the left hand is wrong and weird. This is also why "left" is usually synonymous with "bad", such as "sinister" or "left-handed compliment".

[SaintRidley]

As en example why Japanese is much easier than german:

Take for example:



In German:
Ich bin, du bist, er/sie/es ist, wir/sie sind, ihr seid
Ich werde sein, du wirst sein, er/sie/es wird sein, wir/sie werden sein, ihr werdet sein

In Japanese:
desu



And that's just the verbs. Have fun with articles, adjectives, and adverbs. :smallbiggrin:


All that says to me is Japanese makes no sense as a language at all and German makes things easy to differentiate.

[Mina Kobold]

All that says to me is Japanese makes no sense as a language at all and German makes things easy to differentiate.

Seems opposite to me.

If you want to communicate in German you will have to know what the subject is classified as but in Japanese it is just "SaintRidley wa kawaiidesu" no matter what. :smallsmile:

But I guess that comes from my inability to form two sentences in a row in French despite years upon years of French classes. :smalltongue:

[SaintRidley]

Seems opposite to me.

If you want to communicate in German you will have to know what the subject is classified as but in Japanese it is just "SaintRidley wa kawaiidesu" no matter what. :smallsmile:

But I guess that comes from my inability to form two sentences in a row in French despite years upon years of French classes. :smalltongue:

See, I like strong and differentiated verb conjugation and noun declension. Makes a language more direct and less ambiguous in meaning.

[Mina Kobold]

See, I like strong and differentiated verb conjugation and noun declension. Makes a language more direct and less ambiguous in meaning.

Undertsandable, I agree fully that it makes it more direct and undertsandable but I still say that Japanese makes sense as a language.

Just not in the same way. :smallsmile:

[Mary Leathert]

I saw some tongue-twister up there, so I thought I'd provide with some Finnish ones:

Appilan pappilan apupapin papupata pankolla kiehuu ja kuohuu.

Mustan kissan paksut posket (you will mess up those "sk" and "ks" at some point).


Because the Finnish and the Swedish have a bit of rivalry going on, we like to make fun of each other, including the languages. This is classically used as a "proof" that Swedish is the ugliest language ever.

In English: Island, island, grassy island, grassy island's bride.
In Finnish: Saari, saari, heinäsaari, heinäsaaren morsian.
In Swedish: Ö, ö, hö ö, hö ös mö. :smalltongue:


And other random Finnishness.
Long word: järjestelmällistämättömyydellänsäkään (We sure like our inflections/suffixes. That word isn't actually used, but it is technically possible to string freakishly many suffixes into a word. The base in that word would be either "järjestelmä" (noun) or "järjestää" (verb).

Lot's of vowels: hääyöaie, riiuuyöaie (Again not really used, meaning "wedding night intention" and "dating night intention" approximately, but definitely acceptable Finnish still.)

[Yora]

There are some interesting cases in Japanese as well, in which the suffix will be far longer than the verb.

Good example is iku (to go).
Ik-u - to go
Ik-imasu - I go
Ik-imasen - I don't go
Ik-imasen de****a - I did not go

Adjectives will get much worse, (yes, you have to adjust adjectives to the time), but it's been over two months since my last class. :smallbiggrin:

Also, french is rediculous when it comes to spelling.
In german we would write
"Keske"
The correct french spelling is
"Qu'est-ce que"
That's alsmost three times as long.

Also, do you know Scandinavia and the World (http://satwcomic.com/)? I'm just watching from the fence here, but I think it's all very accurate. :smallbiggrin:

All that says to me is Japanese makes no sense as a language at all and German makes things easy to differentiate.
In a way it's true. In Japanese lots of information is missing from the words and you have to figure it out by yourself. In German, those things are always very clearly indicated and without any context, there is usually only one correct way what a sentence can mean.
However, you first have to learn all those rules! :smallbiggrin:
And there's so many of them and thousands of special cases that don't follow the standard shema. You have to learn all those special cases in addition to all the general rules... :smalleek:
In Japanese, almost any sentence makes only any sense if you know who's speaking, to whom, and what they have been talking about before. But if you have those information, you only need to know a much more smaller number of rules. It's a simpler language, which also means it does not have the same precision. I prefer languages in which I have to memorize very few rules and then can jump right in and start training my speaking skill. But I guess different people learn in different ways.

[Maralais]

There are some interesting cases in Japanese as well, in which the suffix will be far longer than the verb.

Good example is iku (to go).
Ik-u - to go
Ik-imasu - I go
Ik-imasen - I don't go
Ik-imasen de****a - I did not go

Adjectives will get much worse, (yes, you have to adjust adjectives to the time), but it's been over two months since my last class. :smallbiggrin:

Also, french is rediculous when it comes to spelling.
In german we would write
"Keske"
The correct french spelling is
"Qu'est-ce que"
That's alsmost three times as long.

Also, do you know Scandinavia and the World (http://satwcomic.com/)? I'm just watching from the fence here, but I think it's all very accurate. :smallbiggrin:

In a way it's true. In Japanese lots of information is missing from the words and you have to figure it out by yourself. In German, those things are always very clearly indicated and without any context, there is usually only one correct way what a sentence can mean.
However, you first have to learn all those rules! :smallbiggrin:
And there's so many of them and thousands of special cases that don't follow the standard shema. You have to learn all those special cases in addition to all the general rules... :smalleek:
In Japanese, almost any sentence makes only any sense if you know who's speaking, to whom, and what they have been talking about before. But if you have those information, you only need to know a much more smaller number of rules. It's a simpler language, which also means it does not have the same precision. I prefer languages in which I have to memorize very few rules and then can jump right in and start training my speaking skill. But I guess different people learn in different ways.

I used to make fun of the long spelling in French words, but after spending some time with the language, one understands that those long words are the only ones capable of giving that exact sound:smallbiggrin:

[Brother Oni]

It's a simpler language, which also means it does not have the same precision.

Unless you try writing in the blasted language, especially on a computer.

I can hit a fairly reasonable 30-35 wpm in English - my wife's cousin can type faster than me, but if she wants to type a proper sentence in Japanese (with proper adult kanji) it goes down to something like 10 wpm.

[SaintRidley]

There are some interesting cases in Japanese as well, in which the suffix will be far longer than the verb.

Good example is iku (to go).
Ik-u - to go
Ik-imasu - I go
Ik-imasen - I don't go
Ik-imasen de****a - I did not go

Adjectives will get much worse, (yes, you have to adjust adjectives to the time), but it's been over two months since my last class. :smallbiggrin:

Also, french is rediculous when it comes to spelling.
In german we would write
"Keske"
The correct french spelling is
"Qu'est-ce que"
That's alsmost three times as long.

Also, do you know Scandinavia and the World (http://satwcomic.com/)? I'm just watching from the fence here, but I think it's all very accurate. :smallbiggrin:

In a way it's true. In Japanese lots of information is missing from the words and you have to figure it out by yourself. In German, those things are always very clearly indicated and without any context, there is usually only one correct way what a sentence can mean.
However, you first have to learn all those rules! :smallbiggrin:
And there's so many of them and thousands of special cases that don't follow the standard shema. You have to learn all those special cases in addition to all the general rules... :smalleek:
In Japanese, almost any sentence makes only any sense if you know who's speaking, to whom, and what they have been talking about before. But if you have those information, you only need to know a much more smaller number of rules. It's a simpler language, which also means it does not have the same precision. I prefer languages in which I have to memorize very few rules and then can jump right in and start training my speaking skill. But I guess different people learn in different ways.

Quite so. My linguistic interests lie more on the Germanic side of things (with a heavy dash of the Romance languages, as well). Between Old English and Spanish, with bits of Latin and Old Norse slowly making their way into my repetoire (Thank you Normans for giving us that lovely piece of word), I'm just far better at languages with deliberate and extensive rulesets.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I used to make fun of the long spelling in French words, but after spending some time with the language, one understands that those long words are the only ones capable of giving that exact sound:smallbiggrin:

especially because it's properly pronounced "Kuh-ehs--s'kk", only shortened because it's easier to say "Keske" then the above. Same reason why "Est-ce que je peut" is shortened to "Puis-je", or "Ehs-k-j-puh"

[Yora]

I can hit a fairly reasonable 30-35 wpm in English - my wife's cousin can type faster than me, but if she wants to type a proper sentence in Japanese (with proper adult kanji) it goes down to something like 10 wpm.
However, I think when you really know the languages, you can read much faster when something is written in Japanese or Chinese.

It also depends on how you write. When using a western keyboard on a computer and have everything automatically converted into hiragana and kanji, I think it should also go quite fast, as Japanese words are usually very short.
But writing by hand, that does take some time. :smallbiggrin:

[Brother Oni]

It also depends on how you write. When using a western keyboard on a computer and have everything automatically converted into hiragana and kanji, I think it should also go quite fast, as Japanese words are usually very short.


Japanese keyboards are standard QWERTY layout, but they usually use the Microsoft IME to input Japanese text.

My wife's cousin's a native Japanese speaker and while typing the hiragana is relatively quick, converting them into the kanji isn't. As an example:

moon - 4 keystrokes
tsuki - 5 keystrokes
月　- 6 keystrokes and a mouse movement to pick the right kanji from a dropdown menu

I think there's some sort of predictive text, but it never seems to find the right characters (at least she never used it).

[Asta Kask]

There are some interesting cases in Japanese as well, in which the suffix will be far longer than the verb.

Could you say what something like "Shadow of the Mahotsukai" would be in Japanese? Transcribed, please. I will give you cookies. :smallsmile:

[Yora]

That'd be "Mahoutsukai no kage". No guarantee though, that it's right.
But I don't see how one could get this wrong, unless kage is a very special case of shadow that my dictionary doesn't mention.

It's a long o in Mahou, so you either have to write it as ou as the Japanese do, or with a makron as Mahō. Outside of Japanese classes and huge anime nerd forums, a regular o will do it, though. :smallwink:

[Asta Kask]

It's a long o in Mahou, so you either have to write it as ou as the Japanese do, or with a makron as Mahō. Outside of Japanese classes and huge anime nerd forums, a regular o will do it, though. :smallwink:

Or Mahootsukai. That's how my Finnish relatives would solve it. Double vowel = long vowel.

[Yora]

Yes, you could do that.

But I think that's poor style. Though Japanese does not have an alphabet, the sylable system does seem to use that concept as a basis.
There are many systems how to transcribe japanese into latin script, but now almost everyone uses the Hepbourn system, which I believe is because it's the only one that makes sense! :smallbiggrin:

{table=head]_w_|_r_|_y_|_m_|_h_|_n_|_t_|_s_|_k_|___
wa|ra|ya|ma|ha|na|ta|sa|ka|a
|ri||mi|hi|ni|chi|shi|ki|i
|ru|yu|mu|fu|nu|tsu|su|ku|u
|re||me|he|ne|te|se|ke|e
wo|ro|yo|mo|ho|no|to|so|ko|o[/table]
(simplefied: You get a line for g just by adding " to the symbols for k, and the same for s/j, t/d, and h/b/p
http://www.e-artjapan.com/zen/images/hiragana-chart/hiragana-chart-aiu.gif

And in Japanese, if you write in hiragana or katakana using the system shown above, mahou is written "Ma" + "Ho" + "U"
Strange thing is that with a, i, u, and e, they do just add another a, i, u, or e. No idea why they do that with o.

Fun Fact #2: In German we do the same with i. The "ie" is really an "ii". English speakers often mix it up with "ei", but that's a completely different sound.