PDA

View Full Version : Natural attacks and power attack.



Chuckthedwarf
2011-02-02, 12:12 AM
Can monsters power attack with natural weapons? I think I remember seeing the rules somewhere, but I'm not sure where...

I know that natural weapons generally count as light weapons and light weapons do not work with power attack (although weapons that are only considered light for the purpose of Finesse are fine)... But I could swear there are quite a few monsters in various books capable of power attack and only having natural weapons like claws and bite.

In short, can you power attack with claws/bite/whatever when Wild Shaped or not?

Dusk Eclipse
2011-02-02, 12:22 AM
IIRC they count as one handed weapons when used to PA so a 1:1 damage to to hit penalty ratio.

MeeposFire
2011-02-02, 12:24 AM
Yes you can power attack with natural weapons. It is in the feat description.

"If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.) ".

Power attack works well with natural weapons since they do not iterative attacks. This means if you have a lot of primary natural attacks or secondary natural attacks with multiattack you can use a lot more power attack effectively than a weapon user.

Chuckthedwarf
2011-02-02, 12:25 AM
IIRC they count as one handed weapons when used to PA so a 1:1 damage to to hit penalty ratio.

Oh, okay, thanks. I assume attacks like Bite that get 1.5 str to damage if used as a primary attack count as 2 handed?

MeeposFire
2011-02-02, 12:29 AM
Oh, okay, thanks. I assume attacks like Bite that get 1.5 str to damage if used as a primary attack count as 2 handed?

No. The double power attack bonus specifically applies to wielding a weapon in two hands. The fact you get 1.5X str bonus means nothing in this. If you were to wield a two handed weapon with two hands and got a x0 str bonus you could still get double power attack damage (assuming it did not say otherwise in that hypothetical weapon).

Thurbane
2011-02-02, 01:24 AM
Oh, okay, thanks. I assume attacks like Bite that get 1.5 str to damage if used as a primary attack count as 2 handed?
As MeeposFire says, this is not the case...but IMHO, it's not a bad houserule, especially for creatures that only have one natural attack.

Teron
2011-02-02, 01:38 AM
Oh, okay, thanks. I assume attacks like Bite that get 1.5 str to damage if used as a primary attack count as 2 handed?
Bite attacks don't generally get 1.5 x Str to damage. Only creatures with a single natural weapon get that; otherwise, a primary natural weapon gets 1 x Str and secondaries get 0.5 x Str.

Keld Denar
2011-02-02, 01:52 AM
There is no hard fast rule about single natural attacks and 1.5x. Some things, like dragons, have 1.5x str with various attacks as well, and some things that have single primary attacks don't get 1.5x +str.

Thurbane
2011-02-02, 02:09 AM
There is no hard fast rule about single natural attacks and 1.5x. Some things, like dragons, have 1.5x str with various attacks as well, and some things that have single primary attacks don't get 1.5x +str.
You're correct, but I suspect that's sloppy editing, more than anything. The SRD has this to say:

A creature’s primary attack damage includes its full Strength modifier (1-1/2 times its Strength bonus if the attack is with the creature’s sole natural weapon) and is given first. Secondary attacks add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus and are given second in the parentheses.
When I DM, any creature with a single natural attack gets 1.5 STR bonus, even if it's stat-block only says 1x.

MeeposFire
2011-02-02, 02:31 AM
or sloppy mechanics. 3.5 is full of stuff like this.

jpreem
2011-02-02, 04:11 AM
You get 1:2 with a natural attack in case it is your only natural attack I seem to remember from somewhere - otherwise it's always 1:1.

Edit: probably I confused it with the str bonus - which is 1,5 in case of a sole natural weapon. So it's 1:1 for any natural weapons.

Fitz10019
2011-02-02, 04:54 AM
If you were to wield a two handed weapon with two hands and got a x0 str bonus you could still get double power attack damage (assuming it did not say otherwise in that hypothetical weapon).

Actually, with a x0 Str bonus, your Strength would be 10 or 11, and you would not (or no longer) qualify for Power Attack. Unless there's another way to lose your bonus...

Teron
2011-02-02, 05:20 AM
"x0" would mean your Str bonus isn't applied, not that you don't have one. While I'm not aware of any way to make that happen with a two-handed mêlée weapon, I believe MeeposFire's point was that a weapon's Str multiplier and power attack multiplier are not intrinsically connected (1.5 x Str doesn't mean 2:1 power attack, and so on).

MeeposFire
2011-02-02, 06:05 PM
"x0" would mean your Str bonus isn't applied, not that you don't have one. While I'm not aware of any way to make that happen with a two-handed mêlée weapon, I believe MeeposFire's point was that a weapon's Str multiplier and power attack multiplier are not intrinsically connected (1.5 x Str doesn't mean 2:1 power attack, and so on).

Thank you that is exactly what I meant.

Runestar
2011-02-02, 07:33 PM
or sloppy mechanics. 3.5 is full of stuff like this.
I think it is more of exception-based design.

Monsters generally get 1.5 str bonus on their sole natural attack, 1x for their primary attack, and 0.5xstr mod for their secondary attacks, but some monsters buck this trend (and it is explicitly stated in their entry).

For example, the goristo gets 1.5xstr mod to damage on each of its slams, and power attack damage is double (as though its fists are 2-handed weapons). :smallsmile:

MeeposFire
2011-02-02, 08:03 PM
I think it is more of exception-based design.

Monsters generally get 1.5 str bonus on their sole natural attack, 1x for their primary attack, and 0.5xstr mod for their secondary attacks, but some monsters buck this trend (and it is explicitly stated in their entry).

For example, the goristo gets 1.5xstr mod to damage on each of its slams, and power attack damage is double (as though its fists are 2-handed weapons). :smallsmile:

Perhaps, though you cannot tell the difference unless they say explicitly that this is an exception to the normal rule (to let you know, yes I do know this was an actual exception not a mistake bred by lack of knowledge).

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-02, 08:41 PM
I wonder how this would apply to a Fleshraker's Rake attack? That's a two handed attack, or at least that's how I imagine it.

MeeposFire
2011-02-02, 08:45 PM
I wonder how this would apply to a Fleshraker's Rake attack? That's a two handed attack, or at least that's how I imagine it.

By raw it still would only get the 1:1 ratio since powerattack requires "a weapon wielded with two hands" and a rake with two feat is still an attack with two weapons attacking at once. Heck don't many rakes not require attack rolls anyway?

Coidzor
2011-02-02, 08:49 PM
Yeah, rakes are pretty screwy in general.