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Hawkflight
2011-02-02, 12:34 AM
So ... simple question. What's Loredrake, from Dragons of Eberron? I read about it in a Sorcerer guide somewhere, but I can't seem to find any information on it.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-02, 12:35 AM
So ... simple question. What's Loredrake, from Dragons of Eberron? I read about it in a Sorcerer guide somewhere, but I can't seem to find any information on it.

Pure cheese. You reduce RHD of a True Dragon to D10 and give them an extra two effective levels of sorcerer.

Coidzor
2011-02-02, 12:36 AM
^: On a dragonwrought kobold, sure, what with all of the other things it has to raise casting above ECL. You'll find it's divided enough in opinion when applied as it was meant to be to not really qualify as "pure cheese."

It's a boost for dragons' effective sorcerer level in exchange for non-sorcerer spell access and downgrading the dragon RHD.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-02-02, 12:37 AM
Pure cheese. You reduce RHD of a True Dragon to D10 and give them an extra two effective levels of sorcerer.

To elaborate, it only counts as cheese if you use it on a Dragonwrought Kobold, since that is the least painful way to become a true dragon and thus be able to use lore drake.

On actual dragons (hint Steel wyrmling is awesome) it is far less cheesy.

Coidzor
2011-02-02, 12:42 AM
To elaborate, it only counts as cheese if you use it on a Dragonwrought Kobold, since that is the least painful way to become a true dragon and thus be able to use lore drake.

On actual dragons (hint Steel wyrmling is awesome) it is far less cheesy.

What is it, between loredrake, sorcerer 1, and the draconic rites of passage, a 1st level kobold sorcerer can cast as a 5th level sorcerer?

Whereas a Wyrmling Steel Dragon Sorcerer 1 would be casting as a 4th level sorcerer while being a 7th level character, IIRC.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-02-02, 12:45 AM
The greater rite of draconic passage can't be taken till level 6 IIRC

And the loredrake steel wyrmling would cast as a sorcer 3 at ELC 6-ish (I think it has 4 hd and LA +2)

Jarian
2011-02-02, 12:57 AM
For clarity:

Loredrake is a Sovereign Archetype that can be applied to any True Dragon. It increases the dragon's effective sorcerer level by two. A True Dragon is defined in the Draconomicon as a creature with the Dragon type that advances through age categories.

Races of the Dragon did two major things for Kobolds. Firstly, it gave them draconic age categories corresponding to their age in years. Secondly, it introduced the Dragonwrought feat, which, among other things, changes a Kobold's type to Dragon.

People will argue this for eternity, but in the eyes of many, this qualifies Kobolds to take on Sovereign Archetypes.

The Draconic Rite of Passage, also introduced in Races of the Dragon, costs a kobold 1hp and 100gp. The Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, obtainable only after taking the Draconic Reservoir (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) feat and having 6HD or more, costs the Kobold another 1,000 gp and 3 hp, and gives him another +1 to his effective sorcerer level.

In effect, this makes a Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold who completed the Rites progress through spell levels 2 levels ahead of a Wizard.

JaronK
2011-02-02, 01:05 AM
Basically, Sovereign Archetypes (Dragons of Eberron) were designed to give True Dragons a much needed boost. Such dragons tend to have significant LA and racial HD, which makes them too weak, and players wanted to play them, so this was throwing them a bone. As such, the archetypes gives significant power (+2 Sorcerer levels, or a whole bunch of bonus feats and full martial proficiency, or adding all Cleric spells to your arcane list, etc) at minimal cost. The problem of course was what Races of the Dragon did with Kobolds, who did not need such a boost.

Sovereign Archetypes are quite balanced on standard True Dragons, but ridiculous on Kobolds, so make sure to ask your DM if you intend to use them on the lil' guys.

JaronK

Runestar
2011-02-02, 06:38 AM
I am pretty sure they were not designed with dragons as PCs in mind, but more of ways to customize your dragons. They do seem quite strong though, since some offer a boost for no perceived drawback (one version grants a bonus feat every 4th lv, IIRC, as well as tiger claw maneuvers).

Greenish
2011-02-02, 07:33 AM
The problem of course was what Races of the Dragon did with Kobolds, who did not need such a boost.Well, prior to RotD, kobolds did need a boost for a PC race.

True dragon shenanigans are too much, granted, but the boost that RotD and it's web enhancement on their own gave to kobolds was welcome.

Just clarifying. :smallwink:

[Edit]:
They do seem quite strong though, since some offer a boost for no perceived drawback (one version grants a bonus feat every 4th lv, IIRC, as well as tiger claw maneuvers).Wyrm of War loses the ability to cast divine spells, and gets to trade arcane spell slots for those maneuvers. It's not just free bonuses.