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big teej
2011-02-02, 11:07 AM
My group on campus has come together nicely,

however, I have a few problems I'm seeking advice on

first, some background.

we had to finally cap the number of players at 8 + the DM/GM


we have 3 campaign's running
mine, which is somethin of a 'teaching' campaign.
the party consists of
Costain, Human Paladin of Heironious
Tarik, Dwarf Fighter, hailing from Karak Hin
Bartholomew, Half-elf Ranger, Ranged combat style
Arcellere (sp?) Human Barbarian, hailing from the wilderness surrounding karak hin
Talta-Rama, Human Ranger, TWF combat style
Lawesse, Elf Druid, wolf companion Naila
Lan, Human Ranger, TWF combat style, uses Greataxe
Sol-Ra, Dwarf Barbarian, hails from a dwarf hold the party cleared.

the party is level 3

the other campaign is being run by Lan's player
and is a bit beyond my concerns

first
my conundrum

it has become painfully obvious to me (but not to my players apparently) that the campaign revolves around the paladin.
(has his own personal recurring villian, keeps throwing me plot hooks, leads the party, etc.)

and it concerns me that this has happened, I don't want the party to feel like I'm playing favorites or something.

so far the only 2 players to give me a background are Costain and Tarik
Sol-Ra and Arcillere have just enough back ground to add them to the party (they just joined)

I'm looking for suggestions to encourage backgroundmaking
and
looking for suggestions to 'de-center' the campaign, because the paladin is driving it....

the paladin also has a tendency to charge into combat at the first sign of trouble, regardless of what the enemy is.


2nd,
metagaming issue

so far, the only players really roleplaying or attempting to
(or even making it effort to engage the world out of combat) are Costain and Tarik

so I'm looking for suggestions to
a) encourage roleplay
b) encourage seperation of player and character knowledge



tl;dr how can I make sure all characters are important to the campaign, and increase role-play?

thanks in advance!

Kol Korran
2011-02-02, 12:37 PM
the party is level 3

my conundrum

it has become painfully obvious to me (but not to my players apparently) that the campaign revolves around the paladin.
(has his own personal recurring villian, keeps throwing me plot hooks, leads the party, etc.)

and it concerns me that this has happened, I don't want the party to feel like I'm playing favorites or something.

so far the only 2 players to give me a background are Costain and Tarik
Sol-Ra and Arcillere have just enough back ground to add them to the party (they just joined)

I'm looking for suggestions to encourage backgroundmaking
and
looking for suggestions to 'de-center' the campaign, because the paladin is driving it....

the paladin also has a tendency to charge into combat at the first sign of trouble, regardless of what the enemy is.


2nd,
metagaming issue

so far, the only players really roleplaying or attempting to
(or even making it effort to engage the world out of combat) are Costain and Tarik

so I'm looking for suggestions to
a) encourage roleplay
b) encourage seperation of player and character knowledge

thanks in advance!

Ok, I'll try to dispense any advice i have. first of all you must understand that not all players are the same, nor should they aspire to some "roleplay ideal". some like roleplay more, some are more active, some less, some like puzzles, some just like being out with the guys and care less about the game, some are there for character building, and some just really like to smash stuff. these are different people. as a DM the job is to make sure the players (and yourself!) have fun. are they having fun?

are these new players? (you mentioned it was a teaching campaign), maybe they just don't know or feel comfortable roleplaying? how much have you? but i'm getting out of hand. let me try and concentrate on the questions asked:

1) how to decentralize the game from the paladin to the other players: 2 basic tools:
- make the plot about something else, not directly tied to him (though a few touches here and there are nice) and hopefully, have enough things in it to draw the interest of the other players.
- introduce elements that affect the other players somehow (note: make sure the player won't consider these a ruination of their fun). you don't have to have backgrounds for this (if the players didn't invent details, you surely can): -the wizard/ arcane caster finds a formula for some special spell, or staff, or power, but he needs to find the other pieces, and maybe whomever can decipher it (this could lead to a lot of roleplaying as well). a religious character (or just a cleric/ favored soul) gets a vision from their god, or are called by their church on a special mission. someone wrote they are orphans (there is always someone)- appearently one of the parents didn't die? (it was a doppleganger?!) and now they need your help (or lost brother/ sister) or whatever. pick someone who is not in the shadows (those players prefer to stay there), but is not in the front. S/he is called by their nation/ village/ tribe to help protect them from horrible X. someone falls under a curse that makes him look/ talk/ act funny (again an opportunity for roleplay), that can only be dispelled on a special quest.

2) paladin rushing into combat at the first sign of trouble: 2 solutions, i recommend combining them:
- give him a bad experience or 2 (not consecutive!)- running into something that is too powerful, probably get him to fall unconscious, but not die, then leave. the enemy should have some other purpose so as to leave the paladin alone. Important: don't make this enemy obviously threatening, and don't describe it as such ( a little "color" is fine, just don't immediatly give a "don't mess with this" atmosphere) that way the paladin will keep guessing.
- have starting a combat ruin something for the party- they could be on a stealthy mission into a city, or whomever they attack turns up to be members of an ally's party later on and so on.

3) encouraging roleplay/ separating player knowledge from character knowledge: first of all- understand and respect that not all players are roleplayers, and that it is FINE. (though i agree i prefer some roleplay too) some will dislike your attempts, so don't push it too much. try it a few times (not consecutive!) and see who bites. on later sessions mix things up- you can't please everyone all the time, but everyone some ofthe time is quite dandy!

about encouraging roleplay, what sort of encounters have you been running? try to put on things that don't require (or even dis encourage) combat. here are some ideas, that i (or my friends) have used in play (don't let these come down to just simple skill checks!):
- Market investigation: (originally for 4E, as a skill challenge, but it can be used for this as well)the party for some reason need to investigate a market (in my campaign they were looking fora person that was last seen there). make the market lively, with odd sellers, merchandise, and street people. a few possible "roleplay" hooks:

there is a filthy disgusting merchant that keeps following the party, trying to sell them all kind of useless junk for high prices- a broken mirror ("can be used to summon efreets!"), a cracked porcelin jar ("belonged to queen aurasia herself!"), some smelly fluids ("good for manly vigor, eh, eh?") and more. the party can't exactly attack it in the city. if they may be nice to him, barter with him maybe, they might get a crucial bit of infomration. hey, one of his items might even have real worth, if examined closely.
There is a small shrine in the market, for some small minor god, that however opposes the one the players follows. he too know some info, but will yell his insult, and demand a "holy discussion" with the offender. perhaps he may even accuse him of some wrong doing? and draw the crowd to his favor?
a fortune teller calls forthe party members, asking them various questions, turning cards, and then giving some auspacious and obscure prophecy for some (or all). look at the oracle from the OOTS)
a pair of bizzare dwarves (or some other race you like) are speaking in riddles and trying to sell various animals. they may go home only after they've sold them all. they will tell the party their piece of info, if the party can sell a bizzare and strange (or just very unappealing) animal/ beast- a spitting camel, a blind cockatrice, or anything else that comes to mind. this might be also a traditionally "good" creature (a unicorn with his horn cut off) and bring some moral dilemma. the selling and the dwarves bring the real interaction.
the guard come looking after the characters after a while, trying to see what they are up to. they could be upstanding, corrupt, or whatever fits with your party.
street urchins pickpockets! some players take real offense to having even one cp taken from them, some are more heartwarming. you could handle a market chase after the buggers. what will the players do when they catch them? treated nicely, this runts may have the last piece of the puzzle.


- the border keepers: this is a classic, the party tries to pass somewhere/ get access to something, but someone quite powerful is prohibiting them. again, a few ideas:

"looking for a..." the party is being beset by a group of harpies (could owrk with hags, and a few other mainly female creatures). instead of a fight, they want an exchange! they even have shiny stones/ cool non specific magic item for it. but what they want in exchange are... mates. (i'm assuming most of your party are males. this is "usually" the case). they may make "lucrative remarks" about who is agood specimen or not. let the players argue over it (in my group they tried to "sell" each other) it's fun.
gate to the...: some place is guarded by some powerfull bound fiend! he might try and kill the party, but that is boring (hopefully he has the means from preventing the party escaping). he would like some sort of distraction however. this can be many things- a story, a joke, or maybe what our DM chose for us- he wanted 3 of our party to do something they wouldn't do otherwise, to show how badly they needed access. (too long a story to explain what we did.
in the Kingmaker adventure path of Paizo, there are 2 fey creatures that keep pulling pranks on the party each night they are in their turf, until the party pulled a prank in return. that could be awesome if done in character.


- The job interview: the party seeks to impress someone of high authority, be it a high lord, a thieves master, a sage of the seven peaks, or a dragon. how to do so may vary, may involve some combat, but to a limited degree. a few ideas:

the caravan: the lord suggests all of the parties escort a caravan with some goods to another place, protecting it from robbers/ defilers, and all the various competing groups for the lord's favor must cooperate. there was a general "second in command" who oversaw things. we had to escort the body of a stone giant (too long to explain) as a sort of funeral procession for 2 weeks, and act respectfully, while the others tried to embarass us, and we them. that was splendid!
the boat race: the high lord believed highly that a good "sea man!" is good for everything, and so he told us and our competing group to rush to the harbor, and try and sail around the island first. problems: we didn't own a ship. we didn't own a crew. we knew nothing about sailing. the "damsel" of the group sure proved her worth at the start, and the dwarf his worth at the end "i don't know how to use an oar! but i do know how to use this sharp heavy axe!"


- there's a stranger amongst us: add someone to the party. this should not be a DMPC, but it should cause some reactions. don't do this often though. a few ideas:

Princess/ high noble: the party for some reason is burdened with high nobility, (make sure they know they'll get into REAL trouble if harm come to her/ him). this one could indeed be noble, but it's more fun (and cuases more reactions), if they act like a pompeous jerk. they may or may not need protection (depending on their skill), but they do get the party into trouble. of course, some may like it. (a member of my party started courting her, trying to get into the throne room this way)
the old, the crippled, the help needing: someone far more friendly and helpfull (perhaps has quite a bit of magic?) but almost blind, walks very slowly, and is of poor health. needs protection most of the time.
an enemy: for some reason (you can always find it) have a reason for their enemy to be in their group- perhaps a defector, perhaps a true ally, perhaps undecided? the party for some reason must deal with it. prepare for them to kill it anyway.


i think that is long enough. hopefully it will inspire you too. as to seperation of gamer's knowledge from character- it will come with roleplay or won't come at all.

good luck! tell us how it went!

bloodtide
2011-02-02, 03:53 PM
1.It is normal enough for one character to be the 'star' of the group, while everyone else is a 'best supporting character'. Plenty of people are very comfortable being followers. Not everyone likes the spot light, attention or focus of being the star. So if the other players are fine with it, you just might want to let it slide.

2.Remember that as the DM, the reason that the game is focuses on the paladin is, oh 90% your fault. But note that it is also 90% in your control. If you suddenly want to shift the focus....you can, your the DM. You could have the villain die, for example(or at least get caught and put in jail to keep him out of the game for a while).

3.So the paladin throws you plot hooks..that you take and use just for the paladin? It's easy enough to expand on that. Simply add some of the other characters to the plot hooks.

*Easy plot hooks:
A)Vengeance. Give a character a reason to go after someone or do something. I'm not a big fan of 'history vengeance'(orc bob killed your dad go kill orc bob). Doing something simple like 'have a monster take over a grove or nature spot'. The nature characters should want to do something about that.

B)Greed. Each player and character wants things. If one of them plot hooks involves the 'Dwarf Helm of Battle', you can bet the dwarf might want that..or at least want to save it.


BackgroundsNot every player is good at making a back ground, and not every player really wants a back ground. I think a back ground is a poor way to motivate a player. I've had plenty of characters who had backgrounds like 'grew up happy on a farm for 18 years'.

If you feel you must have detailed, complex backgrounds, then you might want to help the players make them. give them ideas and talk it over with each of them.

But I think the best way to give the characters backgrounds is in the game. Have them encounter things and build up a (real) history. A lot of players have a hard time being used by their history. For example a DM says 'Oh Jack your old magic school was attacked and your favorite teacher was hurt'. Now the DM wants Jack to drop everything and run over to magic school and boo hoo find out what happened to favorite teacher. But it's just a silly story to the player. The player does not care about some NPC that they have never even met.

Role Playing Not every one plays their role. Some players just like to be detached, and don't get into it much. You should just let them be.

Bribes are the best way to get anyone to role play. If you have a dwarven princess walk by and want to chat, your dwarven characters will most likely just ignore her...but if she is the last of the Hardrocks and is looking for a warrior to give 'the Heart of Hardrock' too, then you can watch as the players with dwarf characters scramble to get it.

Most bribes will need to be physical rewards.

Meta-Gaming First talk to them about it and explain it all to them. The whole 'what you know' and 'what your character' knows can be hard for a lot of people to understand. Worse, I'll bet a lot of your players are doing the 'I'm playing my character as if it was me' thing.

A good trick is to simply keep the players in the dark as much as the characters are in the dark. Don't tell the players and game information, unless they figure it out.

If you can give a couple example that would be good.

big teej
2011-02-02, 09:59 PM
wow.... big. helpful. post
haha

I'm afraid I don't have time to respond to that tonight but I'll try to tommorrow

alot of that looks like its going to be very helpful

just one slight misunderstanding I wanna clear up

the paladin charging into combat isn't a complaint, merely an observation of behavior.