Battletech

[big teej]

okay teej has another question.


what is the difference between streak and normal SRM?

[mangosta71]

Jump in and alpha strike, accepting a bit of heat buildup. The next turn you jump into hiding and cool down - it's just like the Marauder alternating between firing one and both PPCs.

what is the difference between streak and normal SRM?
Streaks are homing missiles. Normal SRMs are unguided rockets. Mechanically, if you roll a hit with a Streak SRM pack, all of the missiles hit every time, and if you roll a miss they don't fire and waste ammo. If you roll a hit with normal SRMs, you have another roll to see how many hit (the average is about half of them).

[Fineous Orlon]

A good compromise is just to drop a half ton of MG ammo and add 4 points of armor to each arm. Still have the heat issue, though.

8 points of armor?
2 to head, 3 @ arm or..., 3 to head, 2 @ arm, give up last one [shows fondness for armor symmetry...]



Nah, if you want to mod a phoenix hawk, you don't drop the jump jets. 6/9/6 is the real strength of the machine. I'd swap the LL and MGs for an LRM 10 instead. LRM + Medium Lasers are a great way to force good heat management in 3025, since you pretty much cannot reasonably fire them at the same target. Trebuchet and Whitworth work on the same principle.

For me, the real problem isn't designing a better mech, that is trivial. The problem is designing a better mech that looks like it fits in the 3025 milieu [and fits the illustration, if possible, for rule-of-cool win!]. While I do not necessarily agree with putting LRMs on a 6-jumper, GBPrime has sussed out a good way to emulate, and a playable reason behind, 3025 design. I might be tempted to alpha at range 6, however, if the movement mods were favorable.

For 3025 milieu, I offer this example: A MAD-3R works MUCH better as an energy mech, yanking the AC, adding HS, armor, and adding or moving MLs to the torso. However, it no longer looks like the Marauder, nor does it share characteristics with other 3025 mechs. I think others in this thread have made this point, I do not expect a gold star.

However I may like to try for a 3025 feel, I draw the line at underarmoring the head, like the original Phoenix Hawk. That is criminally irresponsible in-universe, and a bad attempt at game balance or verisimilitude in game design. Mechs with a walk/jump of 8 [or 7] at least have a reason to hope they might survive with an underarmored head, the PXH lacks that kind of move, and if it uses its jump and weaponry, heat can slow it even more.

[Shyftir]

Fluff/Video game-wise Streaks have homing capabilities where standard SRMs don't.

Not sure what the difference is in the board game other than that Streaks probably are better.

edit: well I was gonna find a BT connected way to say ninja'd but couldn't find out what the Kurita assassin people were called so...

[Gnoman]

LL and SL mod is nice, but that lack of range would encourage you to move into 1-hex ranges all the time. And you don't want to be putting a 'Hawk into a situation where it can get punched in the head... not when you're looking at 9's to hit with all those smalls. not a good return on the risk.

Ah. When i use a pixie, 40% of my shots are longr-range LL shots, and 50% are point-blank backshots. Thus I don't worry so much about punches, which usually would have to roll an 11 anyway.

[mangosta71]

Heat does not affect jump speed. Ideally, the Phoenix Hawk would be operating in rugged terrain - thick forest, swamp, hills/mountains, etc - where it can get the maximum advantage out of its jump speed and be able to hide from larger Mech's counterattacks.

[Fineous Orlon]

The Rifleman has so little armor that you don't need to get behind it to ruin its day. Anything of the same weight class can breach the thing from the front on the first round. It's even worse than the freaking Hellbringer.

If there's a single design that convinced me that ACs are horrible weapons on anything under 75 tons, it's gotta be either the Rifleman or the JagerMech. Useless pieces of trash. Give me a Phoenix Hawk over either of them any day of the week.

Ehh, put the most berserker like player on your side in a Rifleman. It'll be entertaining for a few turns, and hopefully distract the other side while you attempt other tactical magic.

The RFL can be interesting if you remove/change either half of its heavy weapons. Doesn't look like the mondo cool profile anymore, though.

[mangosta71]

Fluff/Video game-wise Streaks have homing capabilities where standard SRMs don't.

Not sure what the difference is in the board game other than that Streaks probably are better.
LRMs in the fluff/video games also operate like Streak SRMs. In the board game, like normal SRMs, they are unguided rockets.

Ehh, put the most berserker like player on your side in a Rifleman. It'll be entertaining for a few turns, and hopefully distract the other side while you attempt other tactical magic.

The RFL can be interesting if you remove/change either half of its heavy weapons. Doesn't look like the mondo cool profile anymore, though.
If you want to be a real bastard, sub out a Rifleman IIC for that RFL. Pretty much the same profile, but it's so much more capable than any configuration the IS ever came up with. If the rule is "Riflemen are useless pieces of trash," the IIC is the exception. Of course, it's Clan tech...

[Fineous Orlon]

Heat does not affect jump speed. Ideally, the Phoenix Hawk would be operating in rugged terrain - thick forest, swamp, hills/mountains, etc - where it can get the maximum advantage out of its jump speed and be able to hide from larger Mech's counterattacks.

I may be betraying the last set of rules I bought for myself, but the original book clearly says that, "A 'Mech cannot jump further than it can walk."

I don't mind if they've changed that for 3025 mechs, I just have not been exposed to it.

[gbprime]

I may be betraying the last set of rules I bought for myself, but the original book clearly says that, "A 'Mech cannot jump further than it can walk."

I don't mind if they've changed that for 3025 mechs, I just have not been exposed to it.

That's just for design purposes. 4/6/4, 5/8/5 etc. Once damage and/or heat set in, it may very well jump farther than it can walk.

[Fineous Orlon]

That's just for design purposes. 4/6/4, 5/8/5 etc. Once damage and/or heat set in, it may very well jump farther than it can walk.

I do not know if it is for design purposes NOW, it was listed under movement rules originally.

EDIT: Given the movement rules, it would have been silly to mount more JJs than needed for the distance the mech could walk.

[mangosta71]

No, it's still the rule for designing Mechs. You can't, say, make a Mech with a movement rate of 3/5/6. The maximum jump speed of a Mech is its maximum walk speed, pre-heat buildup. Reduced movement speed due to heat only applies to walking and running - jumping is specifically excluded. A Mech with an unmodified movement rate of 6/9/6 (such as the Phoenix Hawk) may have its walk speed reduced to 5, but it retains its jump speed.

The same applies to loss of movement rate due to damage - taking a critical hit to the hip or any of the leg actuators does not hamper a Mech's jumping ability (though the landing is another matter), just like a critical hit that destroys a jump jet does not alter its walk/run speed.

[Fineous Orlon]

No, it's still the rule for designing Mechs. You can't, say, make a Mech with a movement rate of 3/5/6. The maximum jump speed of a Mech is its maximum walk speed, pre-heat buildup. Reduced movement speed due to heat only applies to walking and running - jumping is specifically excluded.

The design rules originally were limited by the movement rules. JJ maximums were not even listed under 'Mech design, so you would be silly to put in JJs for more jump than you could walk.

EDIT: Meaning: Given the movement rules, it would have been silly to mount more JJs than needed for the distance the mech could walk./EDIT


That is an interesting rule change. Thank you.

I may have to get the new set, if it comes out end of the month as promised, for updated rules.

[otakuryoga]

The Rifleman has so little armor that you don't need to get behind it to ruin its day. Anything of the same weight class can breach the thing from the front on the first round. It's even worse than the freaking Hellbringer.

If there's a single design that convinced me that ACs are horrible weapons on anything under 75 tons, it's gotta be either the Rifleman or the JagerMech. Useless pieces of trash. Give me a Phoenix Hawk over either of them any day of the week.

yes rifleman is very much sub-optimal for mech2mech fighting....however thats not what it was designed for
it was designed(fluffwise anyways) as a premiere anti-air mech which usually meant in a base or with the supply train is where it was supposed to operate, so slow speed and lack of ability to take multiple hits was acceptable
of course there were no air units with the original rules and when they did introduce air units they neglected to give rules making rifleman any better than any other mech at AA hence the fact that it(and the related jaegermech) are so bad
Fluff...the same reason you find so many older mechs with "useless" mg's...fluffwise they were supposed to be likely to encounter infantry, but most battletech play being of the "one-off" type battle you rarely see PBI's

[FelixG]

Fluff/Video game-wise Streaks have homing capabilities where standard SRMs don't.

Not sure what the difference is in the board game other than that Streaks probably are better.

edit: well I was gonna find a BT connected way to say ninja'd but couldn't find out what the Kurita assassin people were called so...

If I recall Streaks just dont launch their missiles unless the computer can confirm target lock, that way you dont have any wasted missiles.

[shuyung]

edit: well I was gonna find a BT connected way to say ninja'd but couldn't find out what the Kurita assassin people were called so...
I would guess you're thinking of DEST.

[mangosta71]

edit: well I was gonna find a BT connected way to say ninja'd but couldn't find out what the Kurita assassin people were called so...
Executioner'd? Look it up in the 2750 TR. The fluff around the design is pretty interesting.

That is an interesting rule change. Thank you.
I started playing...18 years ago? Something like that. Third Edition according to the box on the shelf next to me. It was the rule then, and I never heard about it being changed.

If I recall Streaks just dont launch their missiles unless the computer can confirm target lock, that way you dont have any wasted missiles.
There's that (and it also doesn't generate any heat from not firing), but also every missile lands on the target. If you hit with an SRM6, you roll another 2d6 and look up how many missiles hit - the average for that particular launcher is 4. With a Streak SRM6, there's no second roll - all 6 missiles automatically hit.

Yeah. Streak SRMs are hawt.

[Swordguy]

I started playing...18 years ago? Something like that. Third Edition according to the box on the shelf next to me. It was the rule then, and I never heard about it being changed.

BattleDroids didn't specify one way or the other; leaving it ambiguous as to whether jump MP was reduced via heat. The way it's currently run is the way it's been run since BattleDroids became Battletech in 1986.

[FelixG]

BattleDroids didn't specify one way or the other; leaving it ambiguous as to whether jump MP was reduced via heat. The way it's currently run is the way it's been run since BattleDroids became Battletech in 1986.

Hey swordguy, I looked through my books (old Mechwarrior RPG and other sourcebooks) and couldnt find any stating for Kai Allard-Liao, do you know if he is 0/0 or even lower? Also do you know if Phelen Kell/Ward was stated anywhere?

[Fineous Orlon]

BattleDroids didn't specify one way or the other; leaving it ambiguous as to whether jump MP was reduced via heat. The way it's currently run is the way it's been run since BattleDroids became Battle[I]tech in 1986.
The 1985 rulebook for the Battletech boxed set did specify, that is why I quoted it earlier. It was run as written in the book.

"A 'Mech cannot jump farther than it can walk."

How far can your 'Mech walk? You cannot jump farther than that.

They introduce movement points and it becomes clear that the concept 'how far a 'Mech can walk' refers to walking movement points, because of various terrain costs, and this is illustrated.

Later, under jumping, it says "When a 'Mech jumps, it can move 1 hex in any direction for every MP it has available for jumping." Jumping uses 1 MP per hex travelled, it is much faster in rough terrain for getting somewhere.

What determines MP available for jumping? Number of jump jets installed [covered under the design rules, p39] and how far you can walk, or more exactingly, walking MPs, because the terrain costs for jumping and walking are frequently different.

Anything that affects a 'Mech's walking MPs will also limit its jump MPs, because a 'Mech cannot jump farther than it can walk [terrain excepted as specifically illustrated in the movement and jump rules]. That is, it cannot have more jump MPs than it can have walk MPs, because, otherwise, a 'Mech could jump farther than it could walk.

There is no specific example nor rule in that book that says 'jump MPs do not decrease due to damage or heat.' There is a specific rule that says "a 'Mech cannot jump farther than it can walk," then it explains walking MPs and what can happen to those.

Running is also defined in relation to walking. No specific rules are given under heat or damage in regards to running, the rules refer to MPs, at this point referring to walking MPs. To get running MPs, you multiply walking MPs by 1.5 and round up, always. If walking MPs go down, so do running MPs.

Both running and jumping capabilities are defined by the walking capability of the 'Mech. Why would damage or heat suddenly divorce jumping MPs from walking MPs? Does damage or heat also separate running MPs from walking MPs?

That is why I find Jump movement to be no longer limited by walk movement interesting.

[FelixG]

Another thing I wonder, what are peoples opinions on the game "Mech Assault"

I had to lul when I could spin my torso 360 degrees over and over and when they said the Cougar was an upgraded Kit Fox.

[big teej]

Streaks are homing missiles. Normal SRMs are unguided rockets. Mechanically, if you roll a hit with a Streak SRM pack, all of the missiles hit every time, and if you roll a miss they don't fire and waste ammo. If you roll a hit with normal SRMs, you have another roll to see how many hit (the average is about half of them).

:smallconfused:

in the computer game, it seemed that every missle homed in on the target.

[Seatbelt]

Mech Assault, as a game, was amazing. It was so much fun to play. I remember when Mech Assault 2 came out, my buddies and I were an unstoppable force of destruction. Yours truly in the blood asp or other super-heavy (I always prefer the Thor, but my friends could not handle the raw power of an assault mech like I could), Jeff/Indiana in the VTOL and my other buddies in whatever was left. Other teams could not handle their assault mech getting Alpha'd right out of the gate while fully powered -everything else- tore in to them. We had amazing team work and we could dance a perfectly choreographed waltz of victory.

Then we stopped playing for about 6 months, and when we came back people had learned that you only play on one map with specific mechs and you use this specific tactic to lock down your enemy's spawn. Our "generalist" approach to support fire and team work could not overcome those jumpy bastards just outside our spawn point. We couldn't handle it, and never played again.

Edit: Literally. Never. Played. Again. We got beat down so hard core and our defeat was so unfair/cheap/utterly brutal that we turned off the console and I can't remember ever playing Mech Assault ever again.

[Mando Knight]

There's that (and it also doesn't generate any heat from not firing), but also every missile lands on the target. If you hit with an SRM6, you roll another 2d6 and look up how many missiles hit - the average for that particular launcher is 4. With a Streak SRM6, there's no second roll - all 6 missiles automatically hit.

Yeah. Streak SRMs are hawt.
However, two systems mess them up: Angel ECM (essentially a super-ECM unit), which forces them to roll normally on the cluster table, and Anti-Missile Systems, which effectively forces them to roll 7 on the cluster hit table (the book says to treat them as rolling 11 and then apply the -4, but 11-4=7 unless you enter some kind of Troll-Math-verse). Still better than pretty much all other missile systems (though Artemis can be better against AMS... if you get a good roll), though. Another benefit of Streak SRMs, for MechWarrior IV players: you don't need to wait for missile lock. It locks on as soon as you point your reticule over an in-range target.

That is why I find Jump movement to be no longer limited by walk movement interesting.
It had to have been before Maximum Tech was released that they started ruling the way Swordguy sees it, since that book was when they released Improved Jump Jets, which jump up to your run speed.

[Fineous Orlon]

I may be betraying the last set of rules I bought for myself, but the original book clearly says that, "A 'Mech cannot jump further than it can walk."

I don't mind if they've changed that for 3025 mechs, I just have not been exposed to it.

My mistake, when I said, 'the original book.' I should have said 1985 boxed set, labelled as 'Second Edition.' The quote came from the book from that set.

I am looking forward to the 25th anniversary set.

[Fineous Orlon]

Another thing I wonder, what are peoples opinions on the game "Mech Assault"

I had to lul when I could spin my torso 360 degrees over and over and when they said the Cougar was an upgraded Kit Fox.

Fun.

Not Battletech.

[gbprime]

The 1985 rulebook for the Battletech boxed set did specify, that is why I [i]quoted it earlier. It was run as written in the book.

"A 'Mech cannot jump farther than it can walk."

How far can your 'Mech walk? You cannot jump farther than that.

Well I dragged out my original rulebook to prove him wrong and... I can't. I was going to write it off as a rule from the basic game that gets superceded in the advanced or expert game (the game we all know now)... but it isn't.

1985 rulebook does in fact state that you cannot jump farther than you can walk. it lists no exceptions to that, so leg damage and heat would indeed reduce jump movement, rules as written.

Now we never played it that way, so the clarification that neither leg damage nor heat reduces jump movement must have come pretty quickly, but the rule is the same in the 1st Ed of Citytech, which was the next book out. By 1987, Battletech Manual: Rules of Warfare does specify that clarification.

So... huh. :smallconfused:

[Seatbelt]

Frankly the idea that leg damage reduces jump jet speed sounds stupid. That would be like saying I can't type because I broke my elbow.

[Fineous Orlon]

Frankly the idea that leg damage reduces jump jet speed sounds stupid. That would be like saying I can't type because I broke my elbow.

You might not jump as far or as fast if your 'landing gear' was unstable, or if your jets were in your legs, and now you could not control them as well, due to ... damage.

Not really so stupid.

Anyway, that's defending a past version of a game [that I remembered clearly], and fluff is fluff.

I hope they can get the 25th anniversary set out. I will gladly read the rules in my new boxed set, and soon, perhaps.

[Seatbelt]

I have to disagree. If you use legs to jump like a human does, thats one thing and a broken leg should incur a penalty. But in so far as I understand it, Mechs take off like the space shuttle does and no actual "jump" motion is required. You might take mad penalties to LAND because you have a gimped leg, but not to actual movement.

Also why would you take a penalty if the jump jet is on your leg? You check the system, and it is either damaged or undamaged, and then you jump.

[Fineous Orlon]

I have to disagree. If you use legs to jump like a human does, thats one thing and a broken leg should incur a penalty. But in so far as I understand it, Mechs take off like the space shuttle does and no actual "jump" motion is required. You might take mad penalties to LAND because you have a gimped leg, but not to actual movement.

Also why would you take a penalty if the jump jet is on your leg? You check the system, and it is either damaged or undamaged, and then you jump.


You know this is fluff right? You want to get into a fluff debate?

Second point first. Ever seen Robotech Macross stuff? Exhaust in the soles of the 'boots?' Or how about exhaust jets just mounted on the legs?

Interior leg damage [leg critical hits] is generally to leg actuators, the systems that move the legs. Not just move the legs for gross movements for walking, but also for finer movements, like balancing, or... wait for it... steering the exhausts while jumping. Or if the jet is actually damaged, instead of a leg actuator, you lose a MP.

First point, why wouldn't a system be designed to lower its capabilities when necessary parts are damaged, if it could, to limit further damage? Lots of systems limit themselves to moderate damage. In this very game, you have to override heat shutdown for the WHOLE mech in that very line of thought, because heat is bad for a battlemech [and the pilot]! Battlemechs were expensive!

Shoot, ask any pilot or passenger what is more important, going fast...,

... or landing well?

Anyway, I thought 'sounds stupid' was a poor choice of words for perfectly defensible fluff on no-longer current version of this quite fun game.

[Gnoman]

I can't remember where I read it, but I remember reading an interview with the designers wbere this was raised. The original wording was never anything but a mistake, and the game was playtested with the current rule from the beginning (well, once it stopped being a WWII tank game early in development.)

[big teej]

Another thing I wonder, what are peoples opinions on the game "Mech Assault"

I had to lul when I could spin my torso 360 degrees over and over and when they said the Cougar was an upgraded Kit Fox.

when I heard about a mechwarrior game for XBOX
I was like SUHWEET!!!

when I saw the comercials
I wasl like 'SUHWEET!!!!"

when I PURCHASED THE GAME!
I was like "this is gonna be sooooo much fun!"

half hour of gameplay
"this...... sucks. :smallfrown:"

[Mando Knight]

Second point first. Ever seen Robotech Macross stuff? Exhaust in the soles of the 'boots?' Or how about exhaust jets just mounted on the legs?

Interior leg damage [leg critical hits] is generally to leg actuators, the systems that move the legs. Not just move the legs for gross movements for walking, but also for finer movements, like balancing, or... wait for it... steering the exhausts while jumping. Or if the jet is actually damaged, instead of a leg actuator, you lose a MP.
Given what time period we're talking, I wouldn't be surprised if the official explanation for that is "Thrust Vector Control and a fairly advanced dynamic stability model." After all, a MechWarrior has very little actual control over the fine details walking/jumping system... he tells the 'Mech how fast to go, where to go, and when it's OK to not stay upright.

[Fineous Orlon]

Given what time period we're talking, I wouldn't be surprised if the official explanation for that is "Thrust Vector Control and a fairly advanced dynamic stability model." After all, a MechWarrior has very little actual control over the fine details walking/jumping system... he tells the 'Mech how fast to go, where to go, and when it's OK to not stay upright.

Sure, why not? If it's official, or if it fires your imagination, or if it gives verisimilitude to the rules...

Meta-point: There is possible lots of reasonable fluff for a 25 year old game based on cool Anime, designers' imaginations and illustrations, along with game balance.

Anywho, the jump rules have been researched, hashed out and resolved, and ...,

... fluff is fluff, not crunch. If it is fun, cool, and/or reasonable, or even official, so much the better!

[The Precentor]

Well walking mp and jumping mp were unrelated as of Total Warfare at least (I'm having difficulty locating my copy of the Battletech Master Rules in order to check that edition), which specifically stated that running mp is reduced if walking mp is reduced, but makes no mention of jumping mp being reduced if walking mp is reduced. The construction rules do state that a unit can't mount more jump jets than it has walking mp, but the book doesn't mention that jumping mp is reduced by heat or damage at any point, nor does it explicitly state that walking mp and jumping mp are tied to each other in any way outside of the construction rules. Attempting to jump with leg actuator damage does force a piloting skill roll when you land, but it currently doesn't reduce the amount of distance you can jump. Also, considering that we currently canonically have two mechs with a movement rate of 4/6/7 (improved jump jets+battlemech partial wings), I'm pretty sure that mechs can now jump farther than they can walk.

I'm not doubting that this was a rule at some point, however it appears to have been done away with at some point between 1985 and now.

Edit: Does anyone who has all of the rule books know exactly when this change was made?

[gbprime]

Edit: Does anyone who has all of the rule books know exactly when this change was made?

Yeah, scroll up to my last post.

[Mando Knight]

but the book doesn't mention that jumping mp is reduced by heat or damage at any point,

Actually, Total Warfare specifically states that Jump MP isn't reduced by heat. Which means a jump-happy MechWarrior can effectively stick to about 7 heat before he really feels anything. Getting hit on a Jet will reduce your Jump MP, though no other 'Mech damage will directly hinder its jump capability... so long as it stays standing.

[Swordguy]

I hope they can get the 25th anniversary set out. I will gladly read the rules in my new boxed set, and soon, perhaps.

The OFFICIAL street date in the US is March 30th. Your FLGS may have it in a week or so later due to shipping issues...but it's supposed to be available for purchase on that date.

Really this time. I've seen images of the pallets and pallets of Boxed sets sitting in a warehouse ready to be shipped. It's actually happening!

[The Precentor]

Yeah, scroll up to my last post.

Well, I feel stupid now, serves me right for glancing over and not properly reading posts though.

[RandomLunatic]

Here is a question for the old timers: Has there ever been an explanation for why the AC/2 only gets 45 shots per ton, instead of the 50 you would expect? It was hardly OPed, and game balance was not a big concern way back in the day.

[John Campbell]

I can't say as I've ever figured it out. A ton of SRM 6 ammo contains 90 missiles instead of the 100 that other SRM rack sizes get (all LRMs get 120), but that's explainable by the fact that 16.666... isn't a very nice number. That doesn't apply to the AC/2, so I've got nothin'.

[Gnoman]

That is very odd, now that you mention it. The other 3 autcannon have identical total damage values (if all shots hit) of 100/ton, while the AC/2 has only a value of 90/ton. Maybe they wanted to reduce damage from ammo explosions?

[FelixG]

It may also be that they fire more rounds? each shot of an autocannon isnt a single bullet after all, just a fluff reason perhaps

[Gnoman]

First of all, the amount of slugs fired by an autocannon varies by specific model within a damage class.

Second of all, that bit of fluff has zero support within the rules, directly contradicts the way every multiple projectile weapon performs mechanically (every other weapon fluffed as firing more than one projectile rolls on the cluster hits table without exception) and should never have existed in the first place.

[mangosta71]

Well, ACs don't make any sense if you consult things like the laws of physics. An AC/20 is a larger caliber weapon than an AC/2 and has a higher muzzle velocity. It should have a much greater range.

[Fineous Orlon]

Well, ACs don't make any sense if you consult things like the laws of physics. An AC/20 is a larger caliber weapon than an AC/2 and has a higher muzzle velocity. It should have a much greater range.

Really. The barrels on AC 20 are usually shown as noticeably shorter than on AC 2. I would have thought the AC 2 had a much higher muzzle velocity.

Did they fluff out actual muzzle velocities in the various supplements?

[Gnoman]

Not really, no. However, it is clear that the barrels get longer on ACs as the damage goes down, so that explains the range difference.

[Shyftir]

So if somebody made longer barrels for AC 20's they'd get better range in exchange for more weight?

If I wasn't sure that just going Gauss would be a better option in the long run that might make in interesting bit of "Homebrew."

So favorite weapons divided by Missile/Laser/Ballistic and Fluff/Game-play?

(My game-play desicions are based on MW IV:Mercs with mekpak 3, due to my experience there being much greater.)

Missile:
Fluff: Streak missiles especially the MRM versions. instant lock-on +decent range = great.
Game-Play: LRM20 + Artemis, quick lock on devastating damage.

Laser:
Fluff: ER PPC - especially a single one mounted on a light-fast 'mech
Game-play: Light PPC all the joy of using PPCs much more reasonable heat output.

Ballistics:
Fluff: Guass Rifles, all kinds. The whole railgun-style weapon firing watermelon-sized projectiles? Awesome.

Game-Play: Clan LBX AC 20 comparatively light for impressive damage.

[Mando Knight]

So if somebody made longer barrels for AC 20's they'd get better range in exchange for more weight?

If I wasn't sure that just going Gauss would be a better option in the long run that might make in interesting bit of "Homebrew."

We call them Hypervelocity Autocannon (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hypervelocity_Autocannon). They're generally worse off than Ultra ACs or LB-X ACs, though... same range as those two and heavier, but its only advantage is that it generates less heat. And the Inner Sphere Gauss rifle is just better than the HVAC/10... except if you really need that extra crit-slot or ton of mass.

[Shyftir]

I'd heard of those via MWIV but wasn't sure if that was the fluff or not.

[Mando Knight]

I'd heard of those via MWIV but wasn't sure if that was the fluff or not.

It's about as much from increasing the propellant mass as it is from increasing barrel length (HVAC/10 is 2 tons heavier than an AC/10 and has 8 shots/ton instead of 10), but that's the general idea.

[gbprime]

Hey, in all this looking up the history of when jump jets officially became divorced from walking MP... when did they add the guass rifle explosion rule? It's not in the original 2750 tech readout...

[Mando Knight]

Is it in TRO 3050? The original printing of both books was 1989...

[John Campbell]

Yes. Also my 1990 Compendium.

2750 Gausses also got 10 shots per ton.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So if somebody made longer barrels for AC 20's they'd get better range in exchange for more weight?

If I wasn't sure that just going Gauss would be a better option in the long run that might make in interesting bit of "Homebrew."

So favorite weapons divided by Missile/Laser/Ballistic and Fluff/Game-play?

(My game-play desicions are based on MW IV:Mercs with mekpak 3, due to my experience there being much greater.)

Missile:
Fluff: Streak missiles especially the MRM versions. instant lock-on +decent range = great.
Game-Play: LRM20 + Artemis, quick lock on devastating damage. MRM's are 'dumb-fire' missiles, they cannot 'lock on' to any damn thing. The latter is quite commonly used.


Laser:
Fluff: ER PPC - especially a single one mounted on a light-fast 'mech
Game-play: Light PPC all the joy of using PPCs much more reasonable heat output. For Fluff, the mech you want is the Panther. Failing that, if you are willing to settle for a large laser, the Hussar. A light PPC is called a Heavy Laser.


Ballistics:
Fluff: Guass Rifles, all kinds. The whole railgun-style weapon firing watermelon-sized projectiles? Awesome.

Game-Play: Clan LBX AC 20 comparatively light for impressive damage.

Gauss Rifles are pretty much the only ballistic weapon system worth mounting, other than perhaps AC/20's, if you know you can close with the opponent.

[Mando Knight]

MRM's are 'dumb-fire' missiles, they cannot 'lock on' to any damn thing. The latter is quite commonly used.

There are, however, experimental Clan Streak LRMs.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There are, however, experimental Clan Streak LRMs.

Quite possibly the most broken thing since Triple Heat Sinks and Targeting Computers allowing all direct fire weapons to hit the same hit location... Ultra AC/20 + Targeting Computer... 40 damage to one location. I don't care if you are in an Atlas, you're still taking IS from that, even in a Central Torso shot.

[Shyftir]

(My game-play desicions are based on MW IV:Mercs with mekpak 3, due to my experience there being much greater.)

Shneeky, I guess I should say my fluff decisions are also heavily influenced by that game because everything I described is in that game.

But yeah they have Light PPCs in the newest incarnation of MW IV as well as Streak MRMs. Also no actually the Mech I had in mind for the light mech with a single Er PPC is the Pack Hunter.

[John Campbell]

For Fluff, the mech you want is the Panther.
I'm a big fan of the Panther, and it does have a PPC (even ER, if you get the right version), and it is technically a light mech... but "fast" it ain't. Because of its unimpressive speed, relatively heavy armor, and big long-range gun, I tend to classify it - like the Centurion - as a pocket heavy rather than a light. It's just not fast enough to operate according to the high-mobility doctrine that most light mechs use... but standing and slugging? It can do that. Frequently even against heavier mechs.

(It's possible, if you upgrade a Panther right, to get it the ER PPC, Streak missiles, CASE, sufficient heat sinks, and get it up to 5/8/5 without using an XL. House Kurita did not do this, of course. And even then, it wouldn't be a fast mech. Assaults can move that fast. (They shouldn't. But they can.))


Failing that, if you are willing to settle for a large laser, the Hussar. A light PPC is called a Heavy Laser.
There are actually Light PPCs now. I haven't actually used one yet, but they look pretty slick. They're basically a regular PPC split in half... same range, half the weight, half the size, half the damage, half the heat. Two of them together, you save a ton and lose a crit slot compared to a regular PPC, and split your damage into two shots, with the attendant advantages and disadvantages. I think I'd usually rather have one standard PPC than two Light PPCs, but they look handy for a single long-range energy weapon on a light mech that won't cough up the tonnage for a real PPC.

There are Heavy PPCs, too, which are basically the same deal, but they're 50% bigger than a standard PPC. Which makes them 18-hex energy-based (i.e., non-exploding) headcappers. They're toasty warm, but no worse than an ER PPC, and unlike the ER, you're actually getting something worthwhile for all that heat. I'd call them cheese, but the Clans have had a even better PPC for the last twenty-plus years.

(Man. I just realized that it would be 3051 - between the Clan Invasion and Tukayyid - now if they hadn't done the 20 Year Update jump.)


Gauss Rifles are pretty much the only ballistic weapon system worth mounting, other than perhaps AC/20's, if you know you can close with the opponent.
AC/10s aren't bad. They're roughly comparable to a standard PPC in efficiency, and as a low-heat, medium-long range gun, they make good additions to PPC+ML dual-weapon-set mechs, as a supplement to both weapons sets. The one down side is the ammo, which if it doesn't run out, will blow up. Hate ammo. Don't do ammo, kids. It'll kill ya.

And LB-10Xes are Just Better, which is very rare in Battletech. (Unless you're the Clans, in which case you get stinky cheese for free and can stay out of my game or die in cleansing nuclear fire.) Generally "advanced" versions of things are heavier or hotter or bulkier or jam or something... but compared to the AC/10, the LB-10X has absolutely no downside. It's lighter, smaller, longer-ranged, produces less heat, and can (but does not have to) fire Cluster. Even the other LB-Xes don't get that good a deal.

[gbprime]

I look at the Light PPC and see a really extended range laser.

{table=head]IS Weapon|Heat|Damage|Minimum|Range|Tonnage
Medium Laser|3|5|-|3/6/9|1
ER Medium Laser|5|5|-|4/8/12|1
Light PPC|5|5|3|6/12/18|3[/table]

But it is essentially the demigod of IS small caliber weapons. Energy weapon, 18 hex range, 3 tons. Done! Light mechs should have one of these, maybe even two.

---

Oh, and more love for the AC10 here. In 3025, it's a great 1-2 combo with a PPC or large laser. And in clan or star league years, the LB-10X is, as previously described, freaking awesome, as it provides great ranged damage plus the ability as a dual-role crit-seeker weapon. That dual role makes it viable in the face of the Gauss Rifle.

[Hawriel]

The LB-ACs are also one ton lighter. If you replace an AC with the LB you can add in another heat sink, medium laser, artemis to a missile system, extra armor, case, or what ever els you can think of.

[mangosta71]

Or, more likely, use that extra ton for more ammo. You only get 10 shots per ton with an LB-10X, and you probably want (at minimum) one ton of each type of ammo.

[gbprime]

Or, more likely, use that extra ton for more ammo. You only get 10 shots per ton with an LB-10X, and you probably want (at minimum) one ton of each type of ammo.

I feel most comfortable with 3 tons of ammo. (That is, if anyone can feel comfortable sitting on top of a pile of high explosives...) 2 tons of slug ammo, 1 ton of crit-seeker ammo.

[Spamotron]

Since we're doing weapon comparisons. Does the Heavy Gauss Rifle seem almost too niche to ever use to anyone else? Yes its technically the most damaging single shot weapon in the game. But it practically takes up an entire side torso, has terrible ammo per ton, explodes when hit, and has both a minimum range and loses damage at range which seems excessive, to say nothing of the weight. The Clan counterparts the HAG series seem downright broken by comparison. (I know all Clan weapons are broken compared to the Inner Sphere versions. I mean moreso than usual)

[Swordguy]

Since we're doing weapon comparisons. Does the Heavy Gauss Rifle seem almost too niche to ever use to anyone else? Yes its technically the most damaging single shot weapon in the game. But it practically takes up an entire side torso, has terrible ammo per ton, explodes when hit, and has both a minimum range and loses damage at range which seems excessive, to say nothing of the weight. The Clan counterparts the HAG series seem downright broken by comparison. (I know all Clan weapons are broken compared to the Inner Sphere versions. I mean moreso than usual)

Put one or two on a tank. Ambush somebody in a city. Watch them cry.

Put on on an Areospace Fighter. Air-to-ground attacks to the back armor from a 25-point beatstick...

There's more to the game than just Mechs. It's a niche weapon, but it's niche doesn't necessarily have to be on a massive bipedal war machine. ;)

[Kikaz]

Mech Assault, as a game, was amazing. It was so much fun to play. I remember when Mech Assault 2 came out, my buddies and I were an unstoppable force of destruction. Yours truly in the blood asp or other super-heavy (I always prefer the Thor, but my friends could not handle the raw power of an assault mech like I could), Jeff/Indiana in the VTOL and my other buddies in whatever was left. Other teams could not handle their assault mech getting Alpha'd right out of the gate while fully powered -everything else- tore in to them. We had amazing team work and we could dance a perfectly choreographed waltz of victory.

Then we stopped playing for about 6 months, and when we came back people had learned that you only play on one map with specific mechs and you use this specific tactic to lock down your enemy's spawn. Our "generalist" approach to support fire and team work could not overcome those jumpy bastards just outside our spawn point. We couldn't handle it, and never played again.

Edit: Literally. Never. Played. Again. We got beat down so hard core and our defeat was so unfair/cheap/utterly brutal that we turned off the console and I can't remember ever playing Mech Assault ever again.
Maybe it wasn't so great after all :smallbiggrin:? I played that a few times... there were SO many things that didn't make sense, for example, since when are a Wendigo and a Nova Cat even remotely the same thing!? Then you have the Blood Asp being called the Blood Asp AND the Star Adder despite that being the name of the clan that developed it. Then there were all the reused Mechs because the developers were apparently too lazy to even create a separate body for the totally dissimilar Bowman and Catapult or research that a Vulture and Mad Dog are the same thing... list goes on...:smallsigh:

[Shyftir]

Yeah Mech Assault attempted to bring the concept to a console, but did so in a way that ticked off actual MW/BT fans and failed to get any real interest from anybody else.

[mangosta71]

I miss MechWarrior 2. It was the only video game that actually followed a BT ruleset. Though the Trials to move up through the ranks were kind of silly. Ghost Bear's Legacy did that much better. And Mercenaries was all kinds of awesome - nothing like plastering a few IS lights with a Dire Wolf after a long day at work. There's something so satisfying about watching a whole lance of Panthers explode in quick succession...

[Shyftir]

I especially enjoy playing Heavy-Solaris matches in Mediums when a challenge is the goal. and playing Medium-Solaris matches in an Assault when blowing things away for fun is the goal.

[MeeposFire]

Actually Mech Assualt 1 was a hit. Not so sure about number 2. There was no way to appease battletech fans unless you made it just like the games and even then you never know. As a mech combat game I found it very fun. I just played it as an even more abstract version of battletech. I think those same people would have liked the game a lot if it did not have battletech in the game since that brings the fan mentality where it is never good enough (nearly so anyway).

Mechwarrior 2 mercs was the best. I remember having a dire wolf with 6 PPCs and enough heatsinks to use them. It was competently insane though I think I preferred the one I made with 5 PPCs and jump jets.

[Seatbelt]

Maybe it wasn't so great after all :smallbiggrin:? I played that a few times... there were SO many things that didn't make sense, for example, since when are a Wendigo and a Nova Cat even remotely the same thing!? Then you have the Blood Asp being called the Blood Asp AND the Star Adder despite that being the name of the clan that developed it. Then there were all the reused Mechs because the developers were apparently too lazy to even create a separate body for the totally dissimilar Bowman and Catapult or research that a Vulture and Mad Dog are the same thing... list goes on...:smallsigh:

No it was a great game. If you didn't care about the specific technical details and just wanted a quick simple arcade robot stomping game. I really enjoyed the Mech Warrior games for their attention to detail. I really enjoyed the Mech Assault games for its simple fun. "omg this Bowman is not a catapult!" is not a reason to completely discount a game. Sure its a reason to be dissatisfied with it using the Battletech universe. But that doesn't make it a bad game.

Edit: I would likely have been less interested in playing it if it wasn't at least loosely based on Battletech/Mech Warrior. "I hoped in my Gundam Salubrious 7 and tore in to him with heavy alpha cannons" does not satisfy me nearly as much as saying "I jumped into an Atlas and ripped him apart with autocannons."

[Kikaz]

No it was a great game. If you didn't care about the specific technical details and just wanted a quick simple arcade robot stomping game. I really enjoyed the Mech Warrior games for their attention to detail. I really enjoyed the Mech Assault games for its simple fun. "omg this Bowman is not a catapult!" is not a reason to completely discount a game. Sure its a reason to be dissatisfied with it using the Battletech universe. But that doesn't make it a bad game.

Edit: I would likely have been less interested in playing it if it wasn't at least loosely based on Battletech/Mech Warrior. "I hoped in my Gundam Salubrious 7 and tore in to him with heavy alpha cannons" does not satisfy me nearly as much as saying "I jumped into an Atlas and ripped him apart with autocannons."

It was fairly enjoyable for what it was, massive inaccuracies aside, however, the campaign could be beaten well within a day from what I recall. I've never had Xbox live but I did play Mechassault 2, online, at a friend's, a couple of times; it was fun, but I don't see how that coupled with the stubby campaign of either MA could warrant scores in excess of 9/10 with critics... Anyways, after I beat the campaign, I fired up Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries again, because, as MeeposFire said, it's the best. I wish I could experience the apparent magic of Mechwarrior 3 though...

[mangosta71]

Mechwarrior 2 mercs was the best. I remember having a dire wolf with 6 PPCs and enough heatsinks to use them. It was competently insane though I think I preferred the one I made with 5 PPCs and jump jets.
Just don't put yourself or anyone you care about into a Catapult. Those things were deathtraps in MW2: Mercs.

[The Glyphstone]

Ah, MW2: Mercs.....

"So, how does it feel being strapped into a walking nuke-reactor at 6AM?"

"You shoot me even once and I'll turn that beer can you call a mech into scrap."

[Kikaz]

Ah, MW2: Mercs.....

"So, how does it feel being strapped into a walking nuke-reactor at 6AM?"

"You shoot me even once and I'll turn that beer can you call a mech into scrap."


Just don't put yourself or anyone you care about into a Catapult. Those things were deathtraps in MW2: Mercs.
Perhaps that's why the tutorial guy was so touchy about being shot...

[mangosta71]

An IC response to OOC bad design? I suppose it's possible. But I was referring to the fact that whenever I came up against a Catapult, I put my first shot in the bugger's head every time. Instant kill, usually before they managed to get a single shot at me.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, it's head was about 10x the size of everyone else's...

[mangosta71]

Yeah, the hitbox for its head was freakishly huge. I was shocked at how hard it was to headcap a Timber Wolf after merrily blowing Catapults heads off for the whole game until that point.

[gbprime]

Yeah, the hitbox for its head was freakishly huge. I was shocked at how hard it was to headcap a Timber Wolf after merrily blowing Catapults heads off for the whole game until that point.

I recall being quite annoyed at head shotting pretty much every catapult I ran across but rarely being able to salvage one. I could blow 3 light mechs into stumbling scrapyards and headshot a catapult on the first volley... and somehow it was a light mech that was my only choice for salvaging.

Grr.

At least the music kicked butt.

[MeeposFire]

Funny I put one of my squad in a catapult and she killed everything. The computer just was not as good at head shooting like a player was.

[Kobold Esq]

I regularly stripped leg armor off my mechs to free up weight for one more ML or heat sink in most MW games. The computer almost always aimed at your torso, so as long as you weren't standing right next to tanks, you could get by with pretty minimal leg armor.

Obviously I'd never do this in CBT, with all the kicking that goes on there.

[Neon Knight]

Ah, Battletech. I've played Mechwarrior 4/Mercenaries extensively, as well as some experience with MechCommander 1/2. I've tried to get into the tabletop game before, but I never managed to get hooked.

How are the rules for tanks/armored vehicles? Are they a fun game in of themselves? Would it ever be viable to try and run an all armored vehicle force against Mechs?

Also, since people seem to enjoy weighing in on the validity of certain weapons, how do Rotary Autocannons stack up? They're a favorite of mine in Mercenaries.

[gbprime]

How are the rules for tanks/armored vehicles? Are they a fun game in of themselves? Would it ever be viable to try and run an all armored vehicle force against Mechs?

They're viable because they're cheaper than mechs, so you could field more of them in a given scenario. This is because vehicles can and do take critical hits right off their hit location chart, unlike a mech where this is rather rare. So it's entirely possible to de-fang or cripple a vehicle without ever depleting it's armor.


Also, since people seem to enjoy weighing in on the validity of certain weapons, how do Rotary Autocannons stack up? They're a favorite of mine in Mercenaries.

Rotary AC's are pretty good. You have to watch your rate of fire or you'll jam the thing, but the firepower you get out of the tonnage is worth it. A Rotary AC5 is pretty safe to fire 2 shots out of and you can pull off 3-4 shots if you're in a good firing position. I wouldn't try all 6 shots unless you have someone utterly dead to rights, though.

[John Campbell]

I regularly stripped leg armor off my mechs to free up weight for one more ML or heat sink in most MW games. The computer almost always aimed at your torso, so as long as you weren't standing right next to tanks, you could get by with pretty minimal leg armor.

Obviously I'd never do this in CBT, with all the kicking that goes on there.

Not just kicking... we had one session where the GM couldn't roll anything but 9s. And we were fighting on a dead-flat plain... there were some trees, but no partial cover in sight.

We lost three of our heavy/assault mechs in that fight because they got de-legged and killed after they were near-useless on the ground (including a MAD-3L, where he basically just walked fire up its left leg into its ammo), and had to drag our Stalker off the field. The Banshee came within two IS points of losing its left leg, too, which would've been problematic, because it was the only mech we had big enough to drag the Stalker. And we didn't have anything big enough to drag it.

And way too many canon designs don't have sufficient leg armor to begin with.


Ah, Battletech. I've played Mechwarrior 4/Mercenaries extensively, as well as some experience with MechCommander 1/2. I've tried to get into the tabletop game before, but I never managed to get hooked.

How are the rules for tanks/armored vehicles? Are they a fun game in of themselves? Would it ever be viable to try and run an all armored vehicle force against Mechs?
Vehicles are typically much cheaper than mechs, and have their own capabilities. If you pick the right type for the right job, they can be much more effective than mechs, too. The down side is that they're more fragile than mechs - unlike mechs, they have no limit on the armor they can carry, but they're a lot easier to kill or disable without penetrating the armor, and, again unlike mechs, killed vehicles are usually totally destroyed, unsalvageable and unrepairable.

I've had considerable success using vehicles against mechs before, given favorable circumstances... hovertanks vs. light mechs in swampy terrain is absolute murder, for example, and you really don't want to ever fight Demolishers in a city.

On the other hand, my unit's current contract has been putting us up against a lot of all-vehicle units, and we've been eating them for lunch... there was at least one skirmish where we took more damage from engineering casualties than actual battle damage. That's more due to that, while they have superior forces overall, we've got superiority in any given skirmish, and the GM hasn't been handling the vehicles well. I probably couldn't have beaten our force with what he's had, but I could've put a lot more hurt on us than he's been managing. (Starting by using the tanks as tanks instead of parking them in hull-down positions as static installations so they can get their turrets popped off at whatever range our mechs prefer to do it at.)


Also, since people seem to enjoy weighing in on the validity of certain weapons, how do Rotary Autocannons stack up? They're a favorite of mine in Mercenaries.
I haven't ever used one. The one time someone used one against me, it jammed midway through the fight, which caused him serious issues, because he was using it to tune his heat for TSM activation. And then I blew his mech apart with C3-controlled PPC and Gauss fire before he could get it unjammed. That was a three-way fight, though, and not really a fair comparison of anything. The other two guys got stuck in, and then I pretty much sniped them to death while they were pounding each other to scrap. The only damage I took was five points because my master unit botched a Piloting check and fell down crossing a river. My spotter got shot at a bit, but moving at 6/9 (TSM 60-tonner), with 3/5 and 4/6 mechs around, not very often, and none of it hit.

There was a long time where I wouldn't use Ultra autocannons, because every time - every time - I fired one, it would jam. It's really freakishly disturbing when you've got a pair of conventional fighters with a pair of UAC/20s each, and you come stooping in to attack, and all. four. guns. jam.

[Kobold Esq]

New cycle at MegaMekNET!

It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but I wanted to let everyone know about this. The cycle at MegaMekNET (mekwars.org) is resetting tonight. That means every player who had built up a hangar full of rare elite mechs is getting wiped tonight.

Come play starting in 3 hours and you'll be starting on even footing with everyone else. You can join one of six conquer factions (CC, FS, KC, FWL, DC, Periphery) and fight over planets in the inner sphere, or play as a mercenary and just fight for fun and profit.

I've been playing with them for a few weeks now thanks to someone earlier in the thread pointing it out to me. I definitely encourage everyone else to stop by and give it a shot. You can get in on the ground floor and be on the same footing as everyone else.


www.mekwars.org

[gbprime]

Sometimes the difference between an excellent battlemech and a crappy battlemech is... the illustration.

Example... the Firestarter.

Upgrades in 3050 or even turning it into an IS Omnimech in 3058 didn't help it get used very often if it has illustrations like this...

http://www.solaris7.com/Files/Members/69/Firestarter_3050.JPGhttp://www.solaris7.com/images/TRO/BattleMechs/TRO3058/Firestarter%203058.jpg

But spiff up the art used for it with something like the following and suddenly you start thinking about how you'd field one or mod one. :smallamused:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/142/332401714_2fdfb00666_z.jpg?zz=1

Presentation is everything.

[The Glyphstone]

Those legs are horrible. Battlemechs are supposed to be clunky, behemothic, bipedal tanks...that illustration looks like a Wraithlord with flamethrowers.

[Mando Knight]

Those legs are horrible. Battlemechs are supposed to be clunky, behemothic, bipedal tanks...that illustration looks like a Wraithlord with flamethrowers.

Yeah... those legs belong on a sexy-robot girl, not 35 tons of steel and FIRE.

[FelixG]

Also rather entertaining that its left leg seems to be clipping through the rubble :smallbiggrin:

[gbprime]

Those legs are horrible. Battlemechs are supposed to be clunky, behemothic, bipedal tanks...that illustration looks like a Wraithlord with flamethrowers.

Plenty of mechs out there with skinny legs. 3025 also has the Vulcan and the Hatchetman for sheer skinny. And they all have one thing in common... they don't have more armor than internal structure on that body location. Skinny actually makes sense.

[Mando Knight]

Plenty of mechs out there with skinny legs. 3025 also has the Vulcan and the Hatchetman for sheer skinny. And they all have one thing in common... they don't have more armor than internal structure on that body location. Skinny actually makes sense.

Still doesn't give it an excuse for having legs that look like they belong on a Playbot centerfold.

[9mm]

Presentation is everything.

And then there's the Bandersnatch, the mech with a hole in the middle.


http://www.solaris7.com/Images/TRO/BattleMechs/3055_Bandersnatch.jpg

[gbprime]

And then there's the Bandersnatch, the mech with a hole in the middle.


http://www.solaris7.com/Images/TRO/BattleMechs/3055_Bandersnatch.jpg


Another good example. That's hardly an inspiring image. But if you use one of THESE, then your desire to play that particular mech might go UP.

http://www.solaris7.com/files/members/69/Bandersnatch_3055U.JPGhttp://www.sarna.net/wiki/images/a/ac/CCG_Arsenal_Bandersnatch.jpg

[9mm]

Another good example. That's hardly an inspiring image. But if you use one of THESE, then your desire to play that particular mech might go UP.

http://www.solaris7.com/files/members/69/Bandersnatch_3055U.JPGhttp://www.sarna.net/wiki/images/a/ac/CCG_Arsenal_Bandersnatch.jpg

Indeed. I always like it because it's a garage tuner equivalent's "solution" to the Clan Invasion. However I don't care what other mechs you bring up, The original Bandersnatch art will win the award of "what's structural integrity?".

[John Campbell]

You can't really blame the Bandersnatch for having first appeared in an era when whoever they had doing the mech art had apparently never heard of things like "symmetry" or "plausible joints" or even "Euclidean geometry".

[Kobold Esq]

The CCG in general had very good artwork for most of the mechs. Not all of them, but most of them.

I think they did a good job of mixing action with just "displaying the mech." The line drawings in the TROs are all about boring, while the CCG art makes them feel more... real.

Generally speaking though, I prefer the mech art on the cards where the mechs aren't fighting.

[gbprime]

I think they did a good job of mixing action with just "displaying the mech." The line drawings in the TROs are all about boring, while the CCG art makes them feel more... real.

Note of truth there. The original 3025 and 2750 mech line drawings are all pretty good, but then FASA apparently started accepting absoltutely anything from it's one artist without sending anything back for revision or saying "dude, that really sucks." The line art is pretty much horrible from then until FASA stopped producing the books.

Once Catalyst and FanPro started releasing books, things got better. Not with every mech, but better.

[Swordguy]

Note of truth there. The original 3025 and 2750 mech line drawings are all pretty good, but then FASA apparently started accepting absoltutely anything from it's one artist without sending anything back for revision or saying "dude, that really sucks." The line art is pretty much horrible from then until FASA stopped producing the books.

Once Catalyst and FanPro started releasing books, things got better. Not with every mech, but better.

Can't really argue that one.

What's blindingly frustrating is listening to people complain that the minis "look like garbage" when they're a dead-on representation of the artwork. IWM (the guys who have the minis license from CGL) aren't allowed to change stuff - they have to sculpt what appears in the TRO...even if it looks dumb.

And yet they get 90% of the flak for dumb-looking Mech designs. :smallfurious:

[gbprime]

Can't really argue that one.

What's blindingly frustrating is listening to people complain that the minis "look like garbage" when they're a dead-on representation of the artwork. IWM (the guys who have the minis license from CGL) aren't allowed to change stuff - they have to sculpt what appears in the TRO...even if it looks dumb.

And yet they get 90% of the flak for dumb-looking Mech designs. :smallfurious:

Yeah, I feel sorry for them sometimes. They're under contract to produce a mini for every mech design and they somehow have to turn a profit. With hideous designs like the Jagermech III, I wonder how that's possible some days. It's no WONDER they banished it to their archives and people prefer to buy the original jager instead. This thing is LITERALLY a garbage can on stilts...

http://www.solaris7.com/Images/TRO/BattleMechs/JagerMechIII.jpghttp://www.ironwindmetals.com/store/images/btmechs/20-815.jpg

I think the PROBLEM is that the people that make the rules have always been a different company from the people who make the miniatures. The rules are cool, the rules sell. But to move the miniature line, people have to have a reason to get that particular mini, and for tabletop wargames that means the mini has to either be sexy or be powerful. And on those rare occasions when the mini is both sexy AND powerful, then every gamer gets one.

But since the people who design the mechs see only indirect payola from the sale of miniatures, they're under no pressure to make them sexy and powerful. Other miniatures lines live and die by this, but Ironwind Metals just has to grin and bear it.

The latest releases have been in 3039. If the current owners focussed on art and resculpts of the 3050 mechs, I think they could sell a lot of product and thereby generate more interest in the game again. Bring back the sexy. :smallamused:

[big teej]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/142/332401714_2fdfb00666_z.jpg?zz=1


uhm... is that thing in amidts the blood specks batman? :smallconfused:

(bottom right corner, under a beam of wood, blood everywhere, tilt your head to the right a bit..... batman = slain by firestarter?)

I mean to me it really looks like that beam has crushed his back and he's all like O.O with blood pouring out of his mouth.

[Shyftir]

That's just power armor infantry I'd guess. Which Firestarters are pretty good at taking out.

[Mando Knight]

With hideous designs like the Jagermech III, I wonder how that's possible some days. It's no WONDER they banished it to their archives and people prefer to buy the original jager instead.
Both of them have this weird bridge-cockpit, though.

[9mm]

I like the Jager III :smallfrown:, its not THAT different from the original either. I think it's the PPCs.

[Aerlock]

uhm... is that thing in amidts the blood specks batman? :smallconfused:

(bottom right corner, under a beam of wood, blood everywhere, tilt your head to the right a bit..... batman = slain by firestarter?)

I mean to me it really looks like that beam has crushed his back and he's all like O.O with blood pouring out of his mouth.

If you rotate the pic around and zoom in you can see its some kind of cartoon-ish animal like a cat or a dog. I can definitely see whiskers and ears on it. I think the artist was having some fun when drawing casualties.

[gbprime]

If you rotate the pic around and zoom in you can see its some kind of cartoon-ish animal like a cat or a dog. I can definitely see whiskers and ears on it. I think the artist was having some fun when drawing casualties.

I think the banner on the upper right corner says "AnthroCon". If that's true, then the Firestarter is killing furries.

[Mando Knight]

Even in the 31st century, they're the outcasts of the outcasts...

[The Glyphstone]

I think the banner on the upper right corner says "AnthroCon". If that's true, then the Firestarter is killing furries.

Yeah, at least three of the figures being immolated on the left have pointed ears.

[John Campbell]

So the question is, what is it that you have to do to make a Firestarter kill a catgirl?

[Shyftir]

Mention the economy in a Battletech thread?

[9mm]

Mention the economy in a Battletech thread?

*snicker* If there was ever a demonstration of "sci-fi writers have no sense of scale" the Economy in Battletech is most certainly it.

[The Glyphstone]

So the question is, what is it that you have to do to make a Firestarter kill a catgirl?

Easy. Determine the square area coverage of a Firestarter's feet relative to its 35-ton weight, then use that to calculate how deep each of its 'footprints' should sink into the ground. Repeat for various materials - dirt, stone, cement, etc. Then use the footprints as graves for the catgirls you killed.


besides, everyone knows that the battletech universe runs on a hole economy.

[John Campbell]

Easy. Determine the square area coverage of a Firestarter's feet relative to its 35-ton weight, then use that to calculate how deep each of its 'footprints' should sink into the ground. Repeat for various materials - dirt, stone, cement, etc. Then use the footprints as graves for the catgirls you killed.
As I recall, the problem there actually goes the other direction. Hang on, I've got a Griffin here; I'll do the math.

The model's about 20cm x 12cm x 6cm, at 1/48 scale, or 9.6m x 5.76m x 2.88m at full scale, so the mech will fit into a box with a volume of 160m^3. If we figure it fills that box with 50% efficiency, that's 80m^3 of actual mech. It masses 55 (presumably metric) tons, or 55,000kg. That works out to a density of 688 kg/m^3.

The density of water is 1000 kg/m^3.

Its feet are roughly 4 to 5 square meters each. Call it a total of 9.8m^2 to simplify the arithmetic, and, under 1 standard gravity, that gives our Griffin a ground pressure of... 55 kPa. Which is, coincidentally, what Wikipedia lists as the ground pressure of an adult male human's feet, and is less than a fifth the ground pressure of my car's tires.

So not only do mechs not sink into dirt, they should be able to swim.


Yeah, probably time to set some catgirls on fire here.

[The Glyphstone]

I quite literally ROBL'd at this.Roll on Bed Laughing

[gbprime]

As I recall, the problem there actually goes the other direction. Hang on, I've got a Griffin here; I'll do the math.

The model's about 20cm x 12cm x 6cm, at 1/48 scale, or 9.6m x 5.76m x 2.88m at full scale, so the mech will fit into a box with a volume of 160m^3. If we figure it fills that box with 50% efficiency, that's 80m^3 of actual mech. It masses 55 (presumably metric) tons, or 55,000kg. That works out to a density of 688 kg/m^3.

The density of water is 1000 kg/m^3.

Its feet are roughly 4 to 5 square meters each. Call it a total of 9.8m^2 to simplify the arithmetic, and, under 1 standard gravity, that gives our Griffin a ground pressure of... 55 kPa. Which is, coincidentally, what Wikipedia lists as the ground pressure of an adult male human's feet, and is less than a fifth the ground pressure of my car's tires.

So not only do mechs not sink into dirt, they should be able to swim.


Yeah, probably time to set some catgirls on fire here.

Maybe in that sci fi genre, the term "ton" has taken on a different meaning? Maybe they're not metric tons but rather mojo tons, or magni-tons, or even butt tons.

Nah.

The mechs run on the same thing the economy runs on... hot air.

[The Glyphstone]

You may be on to something there - the hole economy of Battletech needs consumers, so the Mech engines must be fueled by the empty space created by hole digging.

[Swordguy]

So not only do mechs not sink into dirt, they should be able to swim.


Yeah, probably time to set some catgirls on fire here.

Same goes for DropShips, actually. It was a plot point all the way back in the Gray Death novel, Mercenary's Star (being about the 6th novel written for the universe whatsoever). A DropShip gets shot down and crashes near a beach. They plug the holes, rig the reactor to act as a steam engine, and float the Union-class DropShip across 800 kilometers of ocean to a repair facility.

And the ground pressure of a standing Mech isn't the part that matters. What matters is how much downward force is exerted by the Mech's myomers and weight combined as it stomps the furry into the ground. :smallwink:

[John Campbell]

Yeah, but dropships are, well, ships. There's, by function and design, a lot of empty space inside... mech bays, crew spaces, and so on. And probably a lot of tankage for liquid hydrogen, which is a fair bit lighter than water, too. I can't figure any reason for a mech to contain that much empty space.

Hell, I don't float in fresh water. Even without my armor. Big stompy armored war machines are lower density than I am?


Hmm. Occurs to me that D&J provides good dimensions for the dropships...

The Union's plenty close enough to being a sphere 80 meters in diameter for this sort of calculation, and we know it masses 3500 tons. So 4/3 pi r^3, that's 268,000 m^3, so about 13 kg/m^3.

Again, density of water: 1000 kg/m^3. Yeah, that dropship's not going to have any trouble floating. It'll ride pretty high in the water, too. Like, beachball high in the water.

... Okay, yeah, a Union is denser than air, by about an order of magnitude. I was worried for a second there...

[Mando Knight]

Big stompy armored war machines are lower density than I am?

Fusion reactors and similar weight-saving designs as aircraft but without the space requirements can do that. Though I wouldn't say that it fills it with 50% efficiency, probably a little closer to 40%, once you figure in the legs and arms.

Also, the feet might not be displacing 4-5 m² each... looking at the designs, it could be as little as around 2-3 m² each, meaning that it would have at least a little more reasonable pressure than before...

[John Campbell]

Fusion reactors and similar weight-saving designs as aircraft but without the space requirements can do that. Though I wouldn't say that it fills it with 50% efficiency, probably a little closer to 40%, once you figure in the legs and arms.
50% was my conservative estimate, eyeballing the model, and knowing where I measured it to. And you've got to get it down below 34% before it'll actually sink. Ain't no way a Griffin only fills a third of that box.


Also, the feet might not be displacing 4-5 m² each... looking at the designs, it could be as little as around 2-3 m² each, meaning that it would have at least a little more reasonable pressure than before...
I measured 'em directly. The bottoms of the Griffin's feet aren't rectangular, so there was some approximation there, but each foot is 2.90m long, with a minimum width of 1.37m and a maximum width of 1.90m, which puts the lower bound for single footprint area at 3.97 m^2 and the upper bound at 5.52 m^2. Actual area's certainly closer to the high end, possibly even more than 5 m^2, but I was, again, being conservative with my estimates.

Griffin's got proportionately bigger feet than some mech designs, admittedly, but there are few designs with feet so small that they should be sinking into the ground, not with the low density they've got.

I've got a 1/48-scale Shadow Hawk and Goliath and some smaller-scale mechs here, too. Want the numbers for those? They'll be worse. The Goliath's, especially.

[Shyftir]

The really scary thing: BT 'mechs are fluffed as being heavier and more ponderous than almost any other mecha in media.

[Seatbelt]

I like my big stompy robots to be big and unwieldy and stompy.

[The Glyphstone]

And now I will always treasure the image of a Rifleman doing the backstroke across a lake with its rotating arms. Like a paddlewheel attached to each shoulder, at least until the arm actuators burn out.

[gbprime]

I like my big stompy robots to be big and unwieldy and stompy.

Well they're still quite proficient at crashing their way through buildings. Pretty impressive for something with less density than a water balloon, eh?

[mangosta71]

They're also remarkably sturdy. I mean, when was the last time you blasted a water balloon with 200 kilos of high explosive shells and still had a water balloon at the end of the show?

[The Glyphstone]

Not to mention a water balloon that could then shoot high explosive shells back at you.

[Mando Knight]

And LIGHTNING.

Speaking of which, due to some unusual circumstances ending in my Shadow Cat (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Shadow_Cat) being turned into roughly 30 tons of scrap metal, I'm in need of a new 'Mech. The group I'm in has some Clan salvage left and we're on Arc-Royal, and it looks for now like I'm going to inherit a Nova (Black Hawk) (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nova_%28Black_Hawk%29). Currently, it's in its Prime configuration, but I'm really jump-happy and not entirely thrilled with the idea that an Alpha Strike while standing immediately confronts me with a TN 8 shutdown check.

Thus, because it's an Omni (with 16 tons of pod space), I'm being allowed to fiddle with it a bit. I'm currently looking at the following build...
+2 Double Heat Sinks (bringing the total to 16)
3 Medium Pulse Lasers
1 ER Medium Laser
1 ER PPC
1 ECM unit (this thing helped us so much earlier... shut down Artemis, turn off enemy ghost images, flip over to ECCM to shut off enemy ECM... yes, we're using several Advanced rules)

It generates 5 heat on a full jump alpha strike, and the Pulse Lasers and long range of the ERPPC let me jump and shoot without too much penalty, using the ERML if I need 7 more damage or if the enemy is 13-15 hexes away.
Any advice, O ye of the Playground with more BattleTech experience than I?

Our time period is 3064, and we're en route to Blue Hole to defend it from Jade Falcon.

[mangosta71]

Is there a reason you're going with an ECM rather than the Watchdog system? It combines ECM with active radar for the same tonnage and space requirements.

As for weapons, I prefer large pulse lasers to ERPPCs - same tonnage, near enough the same range, sacrifice some hitting power for higher accuracy and less heat. If you do that, you can remove one of those extra heat sinks and convert the ERML into another MPL. A full jump alpha strike would give you +1 heat (and -2 to hit with all weapons).

The downside of the Nova is that it's slow for a Clan Omni of its weight class - it's not any more mobile than a typical IS medium. I'd much rather work with an Ice Ferret (plus the Ice Ferret looks cooler), or even a Stormcrow.

[tyckspoon]

For sheer effectiveness, I'd just replace them all with an equal load of pulse lasers if you have 'em.. but then, I think pulse lasers and specifically their -2 TN modification to be about the cheesiest thing ever done to a 'mech weapon, and there's a lot of competition in that category.

Otherwise.. ERML are perfectly satisfactory weapons, the Nova's design just went way over the top with 'em (I suspect you're actually just meant to fire one armload or the other, and having both arms that way is just for some longevity so you don't get completely hosed by losing one side.) I'd pull out enough to get your heat back into a reasonable curve, move a few of them into the torsos so you don't have such concentrated points of failure in your weapon spread, and add ECM and a targeting computer if available.

[Mando Knight]

Is there a reason you're going with an ECM rather than the Watchdog system? It combines ECM with active radar for the same tonnage and space requirements.
Watchdog is Experimental, and consumes Inner Sphere ECM mass/size (1.5 tons, 2 spaces). Clan ECM is 1.0 tons and only 1 space.

As for weapons, I prefer large pulse lasers to ERPPCs - same tonnage, near enough the same range, sacrifice some hitting power for higher accuracy and less heat. If you do that, you can remove one of those extra heat sinks and convert the ERML into another MPL. A full jump alpha strike would give you +1 heat (and -2 to hit with all weapons).
It was due to the loss of damage and range that I swapped out the Large Pulse for an ERPPC.

The downside of the Nova is that it's slow for a Clan Omni of its weight class - it's not any more mobile than a typical IS medium. I'd much rather work with an Ice Ferret (plus the Ice Ferret looks cooler), or even a Stormcrow.
We've got an Ice Ferret in the bay as well, but it has less pod space (thanks to the utterly massive 360 engine... even with XL it eats up like half the mass) and slightly lower defensive equipment, and no jump jets. Again, I'm fairly jump-happy. Since we're playing with added Time of War rules, I'm also working towards Jumping Jack, which makes jumping the best movement mode ever. (Jump goes from a +3 modifier to a +1. Enemies attacking me still take the added +1 from my jump)

[mangosta71]

Watchdog is Experimental, and consumes Inner Sphere ECM mass/size (1.5 tons, 2 spaces). Clan ECM is 1.0 tons and only 1 space.
Really? I could have sworn that the Watchdog was 1 ton and 1 crit space...

It was due to the loss of damage and range that I swapped out the Large Pulse for an ERPPC.
Okay, that's a difference in playstyle, then. The loss of 3 hexes off the maximum range doesn't faze me, especially given that the -2 for pulse means that the LPL is much more likely to hit the target at any range. More accurate close in is also a big plus in my book. But if you favor the raw damage potential, the ERPPC is a solid choice.

We've got an Ice Ferret in the bay as well, but it has less pod space (thanks to the utterly massive 360 engine... even with XL it eats up like half the mass) and slightly lower defensive equipment, and no jump jets. Again, I'm fairly jump-happy. Since we're playing with added Time of War rules, I'm also working towards Jumping Jack, which makes jumping the best movement mode ever. (Jump goes from a +3 modifier to a +1. Enemies attacking me still take the added +1 from my jump)
A 360XL is only 16.5 tons - well under half the Mech's weight. :smalltongue: Yes, it's a substantial mount, but the Ice Ferret actually carries more armor than the Nova iirc. And you can close with anything, so you can load it up with highly-efficient short-range weaponry instead of the silly long-range setup of its primary configuration.

But yeah, if you're going for the jump thingy, I suppose it's not really the optimal choice. If you had access to a Viper or Mist Lynx, though... blazing speed AND jump jets. You can fit jets onto a Stormcrow and end up with something faster, tougher, and better-armed. Or you can keep your eye out for a Summoner/Executioner...

In the end, it comes down to how you like to play, what you'll be facing, and how your squadmates are kitted out. Does the rest of your squad have long-range combat covered? If so, you don't really need the range of the ERPPC - it sounds like your plan is to be a brawler, so you'd benefit more from the raw damage potential of a battery of medium lasers.

[Mando Knight]

Really? I could have sworn that the Watchdog was 1 ton and 1 crit space...
It might have been so in the Tactical Handbook, but in Tactical Operations, the item takes up 1.5 tons and 2 spaces.

Okay, that's a difference in playstyle, then. The loss of 3 hexes off the maximum range doesn't faze me, especially given that the -2 for pulse means that the LPL is much more likely to hit the target at any range. More accurate close in is also a big plus in my book. But if you favor the raw damage potential, the ERPPC is a solid choice.
Honestly, the -2 is fantastic, but I've got a fairly good Gunnery (base TN 1), so I wanted the punch of the PPC because it would deliver more punch per ton than the LPL without increasing the heat per point of damage.

A 360XL is only 16.5 tons - well under half the Mech's weight. :smalltongue: Yes, it's a substantial mount, but the Ice Ferret actually carries more armor than the Nova iirc.
Nova has 160 points of armor, the Ferret has 144. The difference is that the Ferret saves a lot of mass on that because it uses all of the Clan weight-savers, not just the XL engine.

But yeah, if you're going for the jump thingy, I suppose it's not really the optimal choice. If you had access to a Viper or Mist Lynx, though... blazing speed AND jump jets. You can fit jets onto a Stormcrow and end up with something faster, tougher, and better-armed. Or you can keep your eye out for a Summoner/Executioner...
One of my squadmates has a Timber Wolf, so I've been fiddling around with a variant of the S configuration, in case one fell into my hands...

In the end, it comes down to how you like to play, what you'll be facing, and how your squadmates are kitted out. Does the rest of your squad have long-range combat covered? If so, you don't really need the range of the ERPPC - it sounds like your plan is to be a brawler, so you'd benefit more from the raw damage potential of a battery of medium lasers.
Not a brawler, skirmisher. Jump in, smash things, jump more, continue smashing, jump out, leave a parting shot. We've got a few heavies and a custom Clan-based Assault Vee (with a few houserules for the Vee player's benefit... notably, a homebrew character trait to allow jury-rigging of damaged motive systems) for brawling.

The MechWarriors are almost all running Clan tech (except for one, who's running a custom medium 'Mech designed and built around the salvaged scrap of a Barghest), and we've got a mixed IS/Clan squad of power armor (including one at-this-period-experimental Assault Elemental armor, a stolen Ironhold), the Assault Vee, and some IS Aero support. One player is running a custom Huntsman (Nobori-Nin) and a pilot who takes hardly any penalties at range, another a Mad Dog (Vulture) with a scavenged head, and with the Timber Wolf, the guy with the prototype IS 'Mech, and me, that's all six of the MechWarriors (yes, it's a big game).

[9mm]

And LIGHTNING.

Speaking of which, due to some unusual circumstances ending in my Shadow Cat (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Shadow_Cat) being turned into roughly 30 tons of scrap metal, I'm in need of a new 'Mech. The group I'm in has some Clan salvage left and we're on Arc-Royal, and it looks for now like I'm going to inherit a Nova (Black Hawk) (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nova_%28Black_Hawk%29). Currently, it's in its Prime configuration, but I'm really jump-happy and not entirely thrilled with the idea that an Alpha Strike while standing immediately confronts me with a TN 8 shutdown check.

Thus, because it's an Omni (with 16 tons of pod space), I'm being allowed to fiddle with it a bit. I'm currently looking at the following build...
+2 Double Heat Sinks (bringing the total to 16)
3 Medium Pulse Lasers
1 ER Medium Laser
1 ER PPC
1 ECM unit (this thing helped us so much earlier... shut down Artemis, turn off enemy ghost images, flip over to ECCM to shut off enemy ECM... yes, we're using several Advanced rules)

It generates 5 heat on a full jump alpha strike, and the Pulse Lasers and long range of the ERPPC let me jump and shoot without too much penalty, using the ERML if I need 7 more damage or if the enemy is 13-15 hexes away.
Any advice, O ye of the Playground with more BattleTech experience than I?

Our time period is 3064, and we're en route to Blue Hole to defend it from Jade Falcon.

I like it, good solid energy boat. Just be sure your comfortable about when to commit from long range potshots to crit seeking with the pulses. Your light on anti-infantry weapons, but since your apparently dealing with clanners, that isn't really an issue.

[Mando Knight]

We've fought infantry like... once. And for any more infantry that show up, we've got a squad of power armor, including the PC who has dual AP Gauss rifles five years before they should exist. (Let alone the Ironhold battle armor that he's using. It's like some kind of gift from beyond... or another attempt by the GM at making playing not-'Mechs viable for players who choose to do so)

[9mm]

We've fought infantry like... once. And for any more infantry that show up, we've got a squad of power armor, including the PC who has dual AP Gauss rifles five years before they should exist. (Let alone the Ironhold battle armor that he's using. It's like some kind of gift from beyond... or another attempt by the GM at making playing not-'Mechs viable for players who choose to do so)

I must admit, the last bit makes me seethe a little; as I'm a massive user of combined arms tactics. I'd play a ground-pounder any day an just ask for a decent APC. Of course with power armor you get the best of both worlds.:smallsmile:

[Mando Knight]

Well, the GM is a giant-stompy-robots guy. We see some combined arms, but really running through 'Mechs is what we've been seeing. For example, while we were orbital-hot-dropping to fight WoBbies on a planet near the Capellan-FedCom border, some of our air support happened to be some LAM jockeys, switching to AirMech mode to punch out some of the enemy air defense.

Besides, these are player characters we're talking about: even if infantry are highly effective units, it doesn't change the fact that when you're just one guy in a squad of poor squishy meatbags, it's basically GM fiat that you don't die horribly the first time a 'Mech with anti-infantry weapons shows up.

[John Campbell]

I'm a big fan of combined arms, but I still only very rarely use conventional infantry. There are a few roles for which they're indispensable, but for most things they're not cost-effective, in either monetary or human terms. And the roles for which they're indispensable generally aren't ones that work well on the scale that the Battletech rules are well suited for... they're either planetary occupation scale where you're tracking much larger units than single platoons, or RPG scale where you're tracking individual people.

[FelixG]

A platoon of well trained kneecappers will send any lance running for the hills if they are in a city :smallbiggrin:

[Sahaar]

Okay, well, I've got a choice between this and Warmachine, and this thread is making Warmachine look like the less-likely choice.

I'm gonna ask my friend, since he and I were going to get into Warmachine together, which one he would prefer. I'm fairly confident that he'd pick Battletech, 'cuz he's played the crap out of MW4: Mercs and the custom mech-building aspect of the game would DEFNIATELY appeal to him.

Plus, the 25th anniversary box is coming out soon, and it looks sweet.

[big teej]

I still can't get megamek or the mechwarrior 4 thing to work:smallfrown:

[mangosta71]

Took me a while to get MW4 working on my machine, and never was able to turn up the resolution so that I could read text onscreen or make anything out of my map. Don't remember what all I fiddled with to make it run...

[Sahaar]

Hey, I vote for 2 things!

1: get a beginner game up and running.

2: Get a whole Battletech support group thing going! With Sigs! And links to a 'generic random Battletech fans discussion thread'!



And I think I'm gonna go Battletech over Warmachine. I've played MW since I was like 7 (which comes up to about 8 years).

[Shyftir]

Plus there are conversion rules if you want to make BT into more of a miniatures type game.

[Swordguy]

Plus there are conversion rules if you want to make BT into more of a miniatures type game.

There are, although I HIGHLY suggest making a "turn template"; arguing about how much someone has turned (a 60-degree turn is 1 MP, but making a 5-degree turn is arguable for some folks) is a very common thing to see.

Also, come to a group decision on LOS. Due to inconsistent miniature scaling, larger Mech minis are at an actual, ingame disadvantage because they find it harder to utilize cover. "True" line of sight, as written in the rules, is not recommended for this reason. Consider each type a unit a "cylinder" the width of the base and of a given height (light Mech=0.75", medium=1", heavy=1.25", assault=1.5"; tanks are 0.5", infantry is 0.25", and so forth) and ignore the bits about being unable to hit locations that are actually obscured by the modeled terrain, and you're good.

Do these, and the ruleset actually plays very quickly (for BT).

[9mm]

Also, come to a group decision on LOS. Due to inconsistent miniature scaling, larger Mech minis are at an actual, ingame disadvantage because they find it harder to utilize cover. "True" line of sight, as written in the rules, is not recommended for this reason. Consider each type a unit a "cylinder" the width of the base and of a given height (light Mech=0.75", medium=1", heavy=1.25", assault=1.5"; tanks are 0.5", infantry is 0.25", and so forth) and ignore the bits about being unable to hit locations that are actually obscured by the modeled terrain, and you're good.

Do these, and the ruleset actually plays very quickly (for BT).
If there was ever something I've learned: it's this always, always have rules about determining and adjudicating line of sight. Since I tended to be in three-ways it was the third person who'd make the call.

[Sahaar]

Let's not forget what TLOS did to Warhammer 40k...

I have a generic random quesiton: what would your dream mech/mech loadout be?

Mine would be my standard mech from MW4: Mercs. Filled with M-Lasers and a crapton of heatsinks.


Also, in regards to Mech Assault, there's a used copy going for 5 bucks at my local blockbuster. Was thinking of getting it.

[FelixG]

Dream mech: Its probably a custom varient of a Warhammer to remove the Machine guns and SRM for something with better heatsinks/armor

OR

A Jupiter...likely a HAG or standard version :smallbiggrin:

On the topic of buying Mechassault. You will have a LOT of fun for 5 bucks that way, just...dont go into it thinking too heavily it will relate to what you know of as battletech...you might end up with a broken TV and one less controller that way :smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

A great stompy robot game, a horrible Battletech game.

[gbprime]

Dream Mech: There are two things that, IMO, make a mech great... 5/8/5 movement and double-tap large weaponry (like a PPC/AC-10 combo). It's very hard to get BOTH without using an XL engine (which i despise), so I'll often settle for one or the other.

In a perfect world... Shadowhawk variant. LB-10X, ER Large Laser, several medium lasers. Can do that without XL Engine.

[John Campbell]

Dream Mech: There are two things that, IMO, make a mech great... 5/8/5 movement and double-tap large weaponry (like a PPC/AC-10 combo). It's very hard to get BOTH without using an XL engine (which i despise), so I'll often settle for one or the other.

It's not really that tricky. Canon designs are just badly designed.

Start with a 55-tonner (60 tons is the sweet spot for 5/8 with a standard fusion engine, but jump jets for a 55-tonner weigh half as much, which makes up for the marginal difference). Engine's 15.5 tons; gyro, cockpit, and Endo Steel IS add up to 9. 2.5 tons for the jump jets. 10(20) HS by default, all concealed in the engine. Max out the armor with 10 tons of FF, Slap on two PPCs (14 tons), and you've got 4 tons and 8 crits left for MLs and/or more heat sinks (and room for one more DHS in the engine).

Personally, I'll forget the jump jets and go 5 tons heavier with six MLs, a C3 Slave, and Triple-Strength Myomer. I've been looking at swapping the PPCs for a Heavy PPC and a Light PPC, too... having a 15, a 5, and a bunch of 3s to work with instead of just 10s and 3s would help with the problem I've been having with keeping it at 9 heat exactly regardless of range or movement mode. Also, head-capping long-range energy gun. No jump-capability, but a 60-tonner that moves 6/9, can punch the heads off assault mechs, spots for C3 fire when it's in there brawling, and has max armor and respectable firepower at both long and short range is nothing to scoff at.

Oh, and no ammo and no XL, which are the two things that will cut your meching career short in a hurry.

[Shyftir]

My standard Medium for MW4:Mercs would most likely be my chosen ride. Uziel, Two light PPCs, a Streak 6, Jump Jets, Max armor, spend the rest on HS and Engine.

Hits hard, moves fast, lots of durability. that assumes access to Clan tech, without clan tech drop the missiles and switch to two standard PPCs though in all honesty you are only firing one a turn in BT. My choices reflect the way I like to play MW4.

[Mando Knight]

My favorite 'Mech so far is the Timber Wolf. True, it needs to play careful when its side torsos get shot up thanks to using an XL engine, and it gets hardcore Spheroids all riled up just by being Clan tech, but the 75 tonner is maybe the best heavy Omni chassis ever designed. And while you could probably come up with better builds than the canon ones, I don't know if I could change anything about the chassis.

[Shyftir]

Honestly, I find MadCats to be a bit fragile. (MW4:Mercs experience speaking here.) I prefer a Thor or a Black Knight.

[Swordguy]

"Dream" Mech is a Marauder variant (the MAD-XX series being, by far, my favorite Mechs in the game).

Marauder MAD-9XX

Mass: 75 tons
Tech Base: Mixed
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: X/X-X-X
Production Year: 0
Cost: 19,920,250 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,858

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 375 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
2 (CL) ER PPCs
1 (CL) Gauss Rifle
2 (IS) Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================== ==============================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 114 points 4.00
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 3 LT, 3 RT, 4 LA, 3 RA
Engine: XL Engine 375 19.50
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 1 RT, 2 LL, 2 RL 5.00
Heat Sinks: (CL) Double Heat Sink 13(26) 3.00
Gyro: Extra-Light GyroXL 2.00
Cockpit: Small 2.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 220 11.50
Armor Locations: 1 HD, 3 LT, 1 LA, 2 RA

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 23 36
Center Torso (rear) 9
L/R Torso 16 24
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 12 22
L/R Leg 16 29

================================================== ==============================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(CL) Gauss Rifle RT 1 6 12.00
(CL) ER PPC RA 15 2 6.00
(IS) Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
(CL) ER PPC LA 15 2 6.00
(IS) Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
@Gauss Rifle (16) LT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 4

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 29
5j 4 4 4 0 3 2 Structure: 4
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SOA



It's total cheese, of course (although not by as much as you'd expect, given a mixed-tech Mech), but at least it still "feels" like a Marauder. A ridiculously nasty one, true, but it's basically everything I really want in a Mech - good speed, jumping, PPCs over mediums, and big-ass ballistic weapon on the torso.

[Mando Knight]

Honestly, I find MadCats to be a bit fragile. (MW4:Mercs experience speaking here.) I prefer a Thor or a Black Knight.
Technically, the Summoner (Thor) isn't any tougher than the Timber Wolf. In fact, it's more vulnerable in the tabletop game: less armor and inner structure (due to being 5 tons lighter), and the same weapon pod mass (when the Wolf is mounting pod jump jets) and top speed.

"Dream" Mech is a Marauder variant (the MAD-XX series being, by far, my favorite Mechs in the game).
Any reason in particular why it runs IS Endo Steel when it's mixed tech? Since it's not an Omni, it doesn't end up making any difference, but I'm curious all the same.

[Swordguy]

Technically, the Summoner (Thor) isn't any tougher than the Timber Wolf. In fact, it's more vulnerable in the tabletop game: less armor and inner structure (due to being 5 tons lighter), and the same weapon pod mass (when the Wolf is mounting pod jump jets) and top speed.

Any reason in particular why it runs IS Endo Steel when it's mixed tech? Since it's not an Omni, it doesn't end up making any difference, but I'm curious all the same.

Flavor. If it's Clan Internals, it's not really a Marauder - it's a Clan Mech. This way, at least it theoretically STARTED life as a Marauder.

[9mm]

Hilariously I don't really have a true "dream mech" as the Enforcer exists. Seriously I love that machine.

[Spamotron]

Whenever I make a custom mech I always lean toward a fast assault with TSM and maxed out armor. Yes I know making running up to other mechs and punching their heads off your main strategy is stupid-risky especially since it practically requires an XL engine to be fast enough to work. That doesn't make it any less satisfying when the opposing command mech's head gets knocked clean off with the first punch.

[mangosta71]

Flavor. If it's Clan Internals, it's not really a Marauder - it's a Clan Mech. This way, at least it theoretically STARTED life as a Marauder.
Does that mean you're running an IS XL engine, too? Because if so, one breach in the torso where the Gauss rifle is mounted that results in a critical hit puts you out of commission.

[Swordguy]

Does that mean you're running an IS XL engine, too? Because if so, one breach in the torso where the Gauss rifle is mounted that results in a critical hit puts you out of commission.

Nope - you can retrofit an Inner Sphere Mech with a Clan engine.

It's expensive, and a PITA...but you can do it.

IS-tech components on that Mech are: IS, Gyro, Cockpit, Jump Jets, Medium Lasers, Comm system, T&T System

Clan-tech components are: Armor, Engine, PPCs, Gauss Rifle, Heat Sinks (they HAVE to be Clan, since the engine Clan)

[FelixG]

Clan-tech components are: Armor, Engine, PPCs, Gauss Rifle, Heat Sinks (they HAVE to be Clan, since the engine Clan)

not to mention Clan Heat Sinks are just all around better :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

What do Clan have that isn't just better?

[9mm]

What do Clan have that isn't just better?

Tactics, strategic acumen, and variety in weaponry.

[Mando Knight]

Aerospace pilots are worse, and TSM and other melee equipment aren't widely adopted. Jump jets are the same, but there's really not much anyone can do with those (except somehow shave the weight off of Heavy/Assault jets or make Improved Jump Jets actually better than standard ones).

[Swordguy]

Hey, as long as we've got a BT thread open, anybody want to give a once-over of the ruleset for my upcoming campaign and see if you notice any glaring holes? Our playgroup's been over it a few times, but a few more sets of eyes can't hurt.

http://forums.cincybattletech.com/index.php?topic=177.0

[Mando Knight]

You sure you want to encourage low Will characters? It is related to the MechWarrior's ability to stay conscious after getting hit...

I like that you dropped the buy-a-rank and buy-your-citizenship (and buy-your-first-language) requirements from the game... they seem like XP taxes, so why didn't they assign those automatically and possibly drop the granted amount of XP?

[Hawriel]

4 of the traits give a -1 to pilot rolls to stay conscious or avoid damage. One of them for heat damage. Do all of these stack?

[Sahaar]

I'm just gonna post so we're not at 666 posts for any longer (XP)

Also, do you guys know any stores that sell Battletech? I don't want to order all my stuff online.

[Hawriel]

Your local hoby or book store should sell them. If they dont have it on the shelf ask if they can order it for you. Boarders for example usualy has a small section of gaming books. They would love to order somthing for you as well. Barns & Noble would too.

[Mando Knight]

After about three months of playing BattleTech in a Time of War game, I finally got my first 'Mech kill, a Hellbringer (Loki) B that, even though the pilot was specifically made to match my skill rank, lost due to the fact that his 'Mech only has 8 tons of standard armor on a 65 ton machine. The fight was basically a straight-up zellbrigen duel: both of us fought face-to-face at short range, with it as a near miracle that he didn't cleave off my right side with his Gauss rifle (one shot each on the right arm and torso to almost fully strip the armor there...).

For reference, I was piloting the custom Nova that I had posted a bit ago.

[Exachix]

So.. I bought the Battletech 25th Anniversary Box a couple of days ago, and have found the game to be AWESOME. Played a few games and got the missile firing and ammunition rules incorrect, but ah well.

In any case, I am looking to obtain more Clan 'Mechs and Tech. What would be best to start of looking at for this? And any suggestions to painting clan 'Mechs, or even their colour scheme?

[9mm]

So.. I bought the Battletech 25th Anniversary Box a couple of days ago, and have found the game to be AWESOME. Played a few games and got the missile firing and ammunition rules incorrect, but ah well.

In any case, I am looking to obtain more Clan 'Mechs and Tech. What would be best to start of looking at for this? And any suggestions to painting clan 'Mechs, or even their colour scheme?

Ironwind is your miniature source; as for paint schemes it depends on the Clan but always paint before assembling.

[Mando Knight]

In any case, I am looking to obtain more Clan 'Mechs and Tech. What would be best to start of looking at for this? And any suggestions to painting clan 'Mechs, or even their colour scheme?

Rules-wise, you might want to invest in Technical Readouts 3050 and 3058 (likely the Upgrade/Refit/whatever later revisions), and the Timber Wolf (Mad Cat) is a ridiculously customizable chassis with a balance of speed (5/8, with pod space if you want jump jets), firepower (27.5 tons of pod space for weapons), and armor (near-maximum armor for a 75-ton 'Mech) that's otherwise unheard of. If you didn't notice, a good number of mediums have 5/8 movement profiles, and the Timber Wolf is just five tons lighter than an Assault 'Mech.

Yes, it's things like that that make dedicated Inner Sphere players hate the Clans... (fortunately for them, Battle Value makes sure that they can generally run about two Lances for every Clan Star)

[Mutazoia]

Well I have the proverbial TON of stuff for B-Tech (granted its 80's/90's era stuff) so if you have ??'s just ask.

[9mm]

Rules-wise, you might want to invest in Technical Readouts 3050 and 3058 (likely the Upgrade/Refit/whatever later revisions), and the Timber Wolf (Mad Cat) is a ridiculously customizable chassis with a balance of speed (5/8, with pod space if you want jump jets), firepower (27.5 tons of pod space for weapons), and armor (near-maximum armor for a 75-ton 'Mech) that's otherwise unheard of. If you didn't notice, a good number of mediums have 5/8 movement profiles, and the Timber Wolf is just five tons lighter than an Assault 'Mech.

Yes, it's things like that that make dedicated Inner Sphere players hate the Clans... (fortunately for them, Battle Value makes sure that they can generally run about two Lances for every Clan Star)

Timberwolfs may be the saving grace of Clan Wolf. They feel a neeed, a neeeed fooor SPEEEEED, which makes either have amazing things like the Timber Wolf or lack luster Summoner.

[MeeposFire]

I thought summoner was more of a Jade Falcon mech.

[Seatbelt]

I thought the Summoner was aso a Thor? I love me some Thors in the vidya games. No idea how it shapes up in the PnP games.

[Mando Knight]

I thought summoner was more of a Jade Falcon mech.

I thought the Summoner was aso a Thor? I love me some Thors in the vidya games. No idea how it shapes up in the PnP games.
Yes on both. Summoners are generally found in Jade Falcon, but enough of them have been lost, traded, or gifted by the Falcons that all the Clans have them.

It's got less armor than the Timber Wolf, but thanks to that and its lighter engine and frame (built for a 70-tonner instead of 75), it can mount jump jets as part of its standard loadout as well as carry almost whatever weapon loadout the user wishes. Unless it's a HAG-40.

[mangosta71]

Well, even if you mount jump jets on a Timber Wolf, it would have a quarter ton more pod space and one more heat sink than a Summoner, in addition to having heavier armor (1 point shy of max for a 75-ton Mech). A quarter ton doesn't sound like much until you realize that the TW's podspace comes out even (28T as opposed to the Summoner's 22.75), so you don't have to mount a machine gun to maximize your ordinance.

To quote Falconer Joanna, "A beautiful killing machine."

[Seatbelt]

Is there any sense of balance to mech design by devs or does it all come down to flavor and they handle balance in the buy values? I mean.. some mechs are just going to be better than others. Otherwise there's no fun in starting in a terrible light mech and upgrading from salvage and stuff. But the way you describe the TW makes it sound like the most amazing/broken piece of tech evar.

[9mm]

Is there any sense of balance to mech design by devs or does it all come down to flavor and they handle balance in the buy values? I mean.. some mechs are just going to be better than others. Otherwise there's no fun in starting in a terrible light mech and upgrading from salvage and stuff. But the way you describe the TW makes it sound like the most amazing/broken piece of tech evar.

Mech optimization is childsplay, however the cannon mechs are, in general, un-optimized. The TW is an awesome engine of destruction; so long as its only fighting other mechs in a trial of possession. Long term service tours and dragged out fights are not it's strong suit. That statement can generally be applied to any Clan omni-mech from the initial clan invasion.

[MeeposFire]

Many mechs are not very good in general combat but in the right circumstance they become better than even the best mechs. For instance the flashman is a strong 75 ton inner sphere mech but it cannot compete against equal ton clan mechs in general but if you had a game set like the end of Turkiyad (sorry spelling is unknown to me) where ammo problems were common for most clan forces the flashman with its all laser array will beat even the timber wolf (same speed, both no jumpjets normally, flashman is not quite as armored but it is almost as good in that regard, and flashman has more firepower when the timberwolf is out of missiles and other ammunition based weapons).

[mangosta71]

For instance, if you want to commit suicide on the battlefield, the Hellbringer is the Mech for you. It has it all - explosive ammunition, light armor, low heat capacity, and enough energy weapons to make your final shot (which, incidentally, will also probably be your first) a literal blaze of glory.

The TW is a wonderful machine, and can be configured for just about any role you care to name (though that's the common strength of omnis). However, if you need firepower and mobility isn't a concern, there's also the Dire Wolf. If you want to crush anything you set your sights on with a single volley, you'd be interested in a Warhawk. If you want something so fast that your opponents can't lock on, the Fire Moth is a good choice. For recon work/rough terrain, the Mist Lynx isn't quite as fast as the FM on level/open ground but comes with jump jets.

It's true that there are many canon designs that are not good in any circumstances. Take the original Charger as an example - a 5/8/5 80 ton Mech before the days of the XL engine. Sure, it's fast for its size, but the engine is so heavy that the Mech can't carry things like weapons or armor. I know, I'm being narrow-minded when I consider such things essentials instead of trivialities...

[Mando Knight]

The Timber Wolf's Prime and A configurations are still more than a match for a FLS 8K when you dump all their ammo, since they carry enough Clan energy weapons to make up for the loss of their missiles (and machine guns for the Prime). The Flashman would have more of a chance than before, but it's still outmatched without figuring in that the Wolf should have a couple holes in its armor.

[mangosta71]

It's true that the Flashman has the same speed as a TW with comparable armor and reasonable firepower, along with the heat capacity to use its firepower. However, the Inner Sphere tech XL engine makes it much more fragile in tabletop games - you only have to take out one torso location to put it down. A TW is still in the fight if you blow one of its sides off.

I would also point out that the D configuration has comparable firepower to a FLS 8K even after it's out of ammo (and more at long range) - the pair of ERPPCs packs more punch than the FLS's trio of large lasers.

[9mm]

It's true that there are many canon designs that are not good in any circumstances. Take the original Charger as an example - a 5/8/5 80 ton Mech before the days of the XL engine. Sure, it's fast for its size, but the engine is so heavy that the Mech can't carry things like weapons or armor. I know, I'm being narrow-minded when I consider such things essentials instead of trivialities...

Hey the charger had decent armor too; It was the laughable 5 small laser weapon array that was pathetic. Though I'll always love the 4th succession war upgrade, it's like a mini Atlas.

Also it bears noting that for the most part we're talking Clantech, which was FASA's way of making fun of munchins as far as I'm concerned. More range! More damage! Less weight! Moronic Strategy! What's logistics?

[mangosta71]

Even the updated version's armament was silly. The designers looked at it and said, "Hmm, what should we put on a Mech whose primary role is close quarters combat? Oh, I know! LRMs!"

The Charger was one of the ways in which FASA has trolled the BT universe over the years.

[Shyftir]

Yeah, Battletech fandom is a veritable minefield of little nuances and traps for the newbie. Probably why its a strong but small group of fans.

Which makes a lot of us very sadly unable to get our friends into trying it.

"It looks complicated."
"A gundam could slaughter one of those."
"It's too slow paced."
"I'm a whiney baby who wants to game without needing to think."

Sorry bit o' ranting there.

The closest I got was a couple of my buddies tried out some video games, and we started the clicks game but quit. (I blame the boxes that had lots of vehicles and power armor but not a lot of 'mechs. I'm mean seriously we want 'mechs; it's the whole point!)

[9mm]

Even the updated version's armament was silly. The designers looked at it and said, "Hmm, what should we put on a Mech whose primary role is close quarters combat? Oh, I know! LRMs!"

The Charger was one of the ways in which FASA has trolled the BT universe over the years.

we aren't talking about the same upgrade. I'm talking about the pre-memory core Charger CGR-1A5 with a the AC-20 and SRMs.

[Swordguy]

Mechs are not designed with game optimization in mind - they are designed via in-universe considerations first and only.

The Charger, for example, was intended to be a super-heavy scout. Since scout Mechs tend to be obliterated by massed fire when they actually find something, the idea was to make a unit big and heavy enough that it could carry enough armor to break contact and report back in. Since engagements between scout Mechs also tend to happen at close range (due to the small, short-ranged weapons scout Mechs tend to carry), it was intended to be big and nasty enough that it could easily close the distance to a lighter Mech and pound it into scrap. The goal of the Charger was to be a specialized unit in a military (the Star League) that had literally entire BATTALIONS of the same Mech design, so a unit with arguably-crippling overspecialization didn't matter so much.

In short, you don't use a Charger against heavy or assault Mechs - except to flee the battlefield and report to HQ what you've found. You use the Charger against the other Star League-era SCOUT Mechs; Wasps, Stingers, Locusts, and so on. Given a bit of luck on initiative, the Charger totally works in that role; the enemy scout Mechs can't bring it down before it can escape the battle area, or if the Charger wants to fight, it is mobile enough to close with and utterly obliterate a scout Mech via physical attacks. If you're using a Charger against stuff over 40 tons, you're Doing It Wrong.

Now, in light of the scarcity of Mechs post-Amaris Coup and the fact that the Successor States couldn't afford to use hyper-specialized Mechs like the Charger, of course it's a bad design...under those parameters. Use the tool for the job it was designed for, and it'll work well. (And to the naysayer about to say that a Wolfhound can take the Charger, so it sucks against scout Mechs too - remember that you can only compare a Mech to what existed in-universe when the Mech was designed; the WLF-1 post-dates the Charger by about 4 centuries. You have to compare the performance of the Charger to the Scout Mechs fielded at the time: Clint, Hermes, Spider, Mongoose, Wasp, Stinger, Locust, Falcon, Firebee, and Commando...that's it.).

tl;dr? Judging Mechs by game optimization alone is a massive mistake. You have to take into account the in-game circumstances of their design as well.

[otakuryoga]

Yeah, Battletech fandom is a veritable minefield of little nuances and traps for the newbie. Probably why its a strong but small group of fans.

Which makes a lot of us very sadly unable to get our friends into trying it.

"It looks complicated."
"A gundam could slaughter one of those."
"It's too slow paced."
"I'm a whiney baby who wants to game without needing to think."

Sorry bit o' ranting there.

The closest I got was a couple of my buddies tried out some video games, and we started the clicks game but quit. (I blame the boxes that had lots of vehicles and power armor but not a lot of 'mechs. I'm mean seriously we want 'mechs; it's the whole point!)

thats because the clicks game is set after the Jihad
and in that setting mechs are much much much .....insert 8x much....much more rare than during the succession/clan wars

[9mm]

Lots of good points about mech evaluations here

yes but, they still have radios (the amount of communication/jamming is always contentious in the fiction I'll admit), and many of it's contemparies with few exceptions could either run down the Charger or just plain beat it down. Even in the era of the Star League, it was considered a failed experiment, Like the Banshee.

[John Campbell]

The Charger's problem is not that it's overspecialized for a design role other than mech-to-mech combat. The Charger's problem is that it's so poorly designed that it isn't good at anything. The only thing it can be used for that other mechs (frequently practically any other mech) aren't better at is as a horrific example of the concept of "diminishing returns" as it applies to engine ratings. I suspect it only exists because the guys at FASA wanted to use that 400-ton-rated engine for something and didn't want a 4/6 piece of suck sharing the Atlas's biggest-mech-ever spotlight.

It's way, way too heavy to move as fast as it does... but it's only fast for an assault mech, not in any absolute sense, and it's not jump-capable. It's well-armored... for a medium mech. (It's not a medium mech.) Its guns suck, even for a light mech. Any real scout mech can run circles around it. Some mediums and most heavies have armor as good or better - and some of those are as fast as the Charger is. Most light mechs outgun it, and literally every other mech ever out-ranges it.

You can snuff a Charger with a Stinger without the Charger ever so much as getting a shot at you... I've done it. It's not even a challenge to do it with a Spider. Most mediums are as fast or faster, many of them have similar armor, and practically all of them are much handier in a fight. A Dragon is just as fast, just as well armored, and much better armed, because despite being 20 tons lighter, it's got 16.5 tons more usable tonnage.

You want a heavy scout? Get a Phoenix Hawk. (The PXH-1K has only half a ton less armor than the Charger, and is faster and better-armed.) Get a Scorpion (also too big to be as fast as it is, but only marginally). Hell, get that Dragon. A Dragon's a joke as a scout (the punchline to the joke probably involves the Steiners), but it's just as capable of doing the job as a Charger, and it's halfway decent in a fight, too. Get a Griffin or Wolverine... they're only a half-ton shy of the Charger's armor, just as fast, jump-capable, and much better armed. Any of those mechs will do the Charger's job at least as well as a Charger, and will incidentally rip a Charger a new one in a fight.

(Note, I refer only to the CGR-1A1. The 1A5 is a pretty decent machine. It is specialized for a narrow role, but it's at least good in its role. I'd rather a CGR-1A5 than a Victor to do a Victor's job.)

[Seatbelt]

I suspected the in-universe argument was the principle design philosophy. Thanks for clarifying. :)

[Shyftir]

thats because the clicks game is set after the Jihad and in that setting mechs are much much much .....insert 8x much....much more rare than during the succession/clan wars

Just because it makes sense doesn't mean its a good idea. I really feel like the Dark Age setting did more to kill that game then any other factor. Except perhaps the glut of cliks games at the time.

[king.com]

Just because it makes sense doesn't mean its a good idea. I really feel like the Dark Age setting did more to kill that game then any other factor. Except perhaps the glut of cliks games at the time.

I always have this picture of some really silly things going on in that universe.

Like the Liao representative going "we got rid of our mechs" while standing in front of a Cyclops.
"err..isnt that a..."
"Its a statue. Go away now."

Or the Clans deciding "Warrior code and their arms? Who needs that!"

[FelixG]

I always have this picture of some really silly things going on in that universe.

Like the Liao representative going "we got rid of our mechs" while standing in front of a Cyclops.
"err..isnt that a..."
"Its a statue. Go away now."

Or the Clans deciding "Warrior code and their arms? Who needs that!"

It would make me happy if Catalyst, opnce they get through with the dark age crap, had the other factions sort of split up the republic of the sphere, ramp up their productions of war time equipment again and pretty much go

"So...where did we leave off before this universe went bat-[exponent deleted] crazy?"

[gbprime]

Battletech stopped being Battletech once they introduced Dark Age. My gaming group kept calling it "Mad Mechs" in reference to the Mel Gibson films.

When we weren't making some derogatory comment about cliks, that is.

Thanks, but we like our universe stuck in 4th Succession War. :smallamused:

[Sahaar]

Clan invasion FTW!!! wooo!

[mangosta71]

The Dark Age never happened.

The Clans just stopping after the Smoke Jags got scragged makes no sense based on their societal values. More likely they would have put a hold on their infighting, stopped using "minimum necessary force", and torched the hell out of the IS. They had so many more Warships that they wouldn't even need to land troops - just give the the old Turtle Bay treatment to every planet that offers resistance.

But even if they couldn't win, their principles would have them go down swinging instead of accepting surrender, disarmament, and coexistence.

[Mando Knight]

The Clans just stopping after the Smoke Jags got scragged makes no sense based on their societal values. More likely they would have put a hold on their infighting, stopped using "minimum necessary force", and torched the hell out of the IS.
1.) Warden Clans. They're fine with the foothold they've got, so long as the IS doesn't make too big a mess of itself.
2.) Even the Crusader Clans held themselves to the Tukayyid line.
3.) Jade Falcons tried again, but failed (see #1: Wolves-in-Exile helped the Lyrans fend off the Falcon Incursion). Crusader Wolves were hemmed in by Falcons on one side and the recently-turned-Warden Ghost Bear on the other.
4.) The Sphere started catching up to the Clans, whose tech stayed mostly the same up to the 3060s.

[Reverent-One]

Just because it makes sense doesn't mean its a good idea. I really feel like the Dark Age setting did more to kill that game then any other factor. Except perhaps the glut of cliks games at the time.

No, horrible game design choices are what really killed that game. Rules changes, poorly designed units, and bad choices for the makeup of the sets. I have a long rant prepared of everything Wizkids did wrong at the end there, if you want to hear it. *you really don't*


The Clans just stopping after the Smoke Jags got scragged makes no sense based on their societal values. More likely they would have put a hold on their infighting, stopped using "minimum necessary force", and torched the hell out of the IS. They had so many more Warships that they wouldn't even need to land troops - just give the the old Turtle Bay treatment to every planet that offers resistance.

So given their societal values, it would make more sense for them to ignore the results of a valid Trial of Refusal? And then go around using such dishonorable tatics as orbital bombardment? We are talking about the Clans here, not freebirth scum, quiaff?

[Mando Knight]

Silly but potentially cool mixed 'Mech that I just came up with. It's currently unnamed, as its most (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragon)obvious (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Grand_Dragon)names (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Fafnir) are already taken.

It's a 75-tonner with a head-mounted flamer, partial wing, and claws. Also space and mass for some additional energy weapons for some extra ka-pow. Or possibly TSM, for which it would probably use less than its crit-free maximum heat sinks to free up more weight and increase the heat potential. Mixed tech is necessary due to the lack of melee weapons (or TSM) on the Clan side, as well as the build's dependency on the rest of the machine being Clan-built.

[9mm]

Parts of the Dark Age makes sense; The idea of a new Terran Herm is great: the idea that the HPG network gets kablooied is less realistic, if for no other reason that if all else fails buy replacement parts from Clan Diamond Shark. Ideas like "all contact with the pentagon is gone" and "no one knows the route anymore" make no sense.

I realize that there is a ways to go before the fiction catches up, but I wish it would hurry a little.

[Mando Knight]

if for no other reason that if all else fails buy replacement parts from Clan Diamond Shark.

Which leads us to another point: Diamond Shark is a cool name. Like, 2000% cooler than Sea Fox.

[king.com]

Parts of the Dark Age makes sense; The idea of a new Terran Herm is great: the idea that the HPG network gets kablooied is less realistic, if for no other reason that if all else fails buy replacement parts from Clan Diamond Shark. Ideas like "all contact with the pentagon is gone" and "no one knows the route anymore" make no sense.

I realize that there is a ways to go before the fiction catches up, but I wish it would hurry a little.

So have they actually revealed who took out all the HPGs yet? Like the most crucially plot point of the whole affair and by the time I was done with the whole Dark Age line, i still didn't know who did it, or who kill Victor Steiner-Davion.

[Reverent-One]

the idea that the HPG network gets kablooied is less realistic, if for no other reason that if all else fails buy replacement parts from Clan Diamond Shark.

The problem with that is that the HPG failure goes further than just broken parts, for many HPGs, new cores would be installed, only to burn out again immediately.

As for King's question, I'm not sure (though as far as I understand it, it was the WoBies). I never got the last dark age book as it was only released as a 10 part pdf on battlecorps and ebook, looks like Wizkids going under threw things off. From reviews though it does seem like it tied up a number of the ongoing plotlines, with the HPG network plotline as a major focus of the novel.

[MeeposFire]

I remember liking the books all the way through the end of the twilight of the clans and then they completely lost me. It was unfortunate too since I really liked reading them.

[mangosta71]

So given their societal values, it would make more sense for them to ignore the results of a valid Trial of Refusal?
No, I'm saying that, once the Truce of Tukayyid ended, the gloves should have come off because they would have realized that they'd been played for suckers. Technically, I'm not convinced that Tukayyid should have been legally binding anyway - Comstar was shuffling forces around so much that each Clan faced more than what was agreed upon.

And then go around using such dishonorable tatics as orbital bombardment?
Who ever said anything about orbital bombardment being dishonorable? And even if it is, the freebirth scum is inherently dishonorable to begin with - there's no honor to be had on the battlefield anyway.

[Reverent-One]

No, I'm saying that, once the Truce of Tukayyid ended, the gloves should have come off because they would have realized that they'd been played for suckers. Technically, I'm not convinced that Tukayyid should have been legally binding anyway - Comstar was shuffling forces around so much that each Clan faced more than what was agreed upon.

The Clans recognized it as legitiment, they should know better than anyone.


Who ever said anything about orbital bombardment being dishonorable? And even if it is, the freebirth scum is inherently dishonorable to begin with - there's no honor to be had on the battlefield anyway.

Where's the warrior on warrior combat in an orbital bombardment like Turtle Bay? There is none, it's just shooting civilians with Warship cannons. This breaks two of the Clan's priciples, involving non-combatants and wasteful destruction of resources. There's no honor there. If the freeborn warriors fight without honor, the Clanners will not personally give them any, but that doesn't mean that the Clanners will dishonor themselves.

[mangosta71]

Every IS character is a Mary Sue and every Clanner has a firm grasp on the idiot ball in the novels (with the extremely rare but occasional exception that proves the rule). This holds at least through the end of the Twilight of the Clans travesty series - I was so disgusted with the universe by that point that I had to stop reading, so I never got into the Dark Age crap.

[Reverent-One]

You don't need to hold back so much, tell us how you really feel. :smallwink:

[king.com]

Huh, thats the first time I've heard someone call Maximilian Liao a Mary Sue.

[Mando Knight]

Being somewhat successful while at the same time being completely nuts? Sounds like the roots of a Villain Sue...

[MeeposFire]

I don't know about calling losing half your realm somewhat successful though.

[king.com]

I don't know about calling losing half your realm somewhat successful though.

And having all but 1 of your heirs going against you.

[Swordguy]

Every IS character is a Mary Sue and every Clanner has a firm grasp on the idiot ball in the novels (with the extremely rare but occasional exception that proves the rule). This holds at least through the end of the Twilight of the Clans travesty series - I was so disgusted with the universe by that point that I had to stop reading, so I never got into the Dark Age crap.

If every character is a Mary Sue, then the term no longer has meaning.

Every faction gets hit with the nerf-bat at some point, and every faction gets to be awesome for a little while (except the Free Worlds League, but nobody who matters cares about them anyway). It's cyclical - just because a faction or character you don't like is on top today doesn't mean that they're an authorial insert or the writers are living vicariously through that character.

In fact, there are ACTUAL Mary Sues in the universe in the form of authorial inserts. Herbtram Beas, an INN correspondent who specializes in reporting on the Jihad, is the alter-ego of Herb Beas, the BattleTech Line Developer. Others include Col. de. SummerIsle of the Canopian Armed Forces, and there's other (work calls - gg). None of the "people in power" in the Inner Sphere or the Clans are Mary Sues...you just don't like them.

[mangosta71]

Have you read the Blood of Kerensky trilogy? If so, name one thing that Kai, Victor, Phelan, Hohiro, Galen, Shin, Hanse, Theodore, or Focht touches that doesn't turn into gold.

For instance, no Hatchetman was ever built that could take the punishment that the one Kai was in on Twycross took. Nor has there ever been one with the firepower it had. The axe really doesn't do that much damage - certainly nowhere near enough to shear a pristine Summoner's arm off with one blow. By the board game rules, an ejection mechanism launches a pilot so that he lands 30 meters from the Mech he bails out from. The detonation of a fusion plant has a 90-meter radius - there's no way he should have survived that. And then on Alyina, his Centurion (a 4/6/0 design) has godmode enabled - it's impossibly fast (no Centurion can outrun the rest of a scout lance), it's one-shotting undamaged Clan Mechs left and right, and then when it tumbles into the sea, there just happens to be a shelf that's just big enough for his Mech to land safely before it reaches crushing depth. Oh, and then he takes out an Elemental - you know, those guys that are "8 feet tall, solid muscle, and trained in unarmed combat from the crib" - in hand-to-hand combat (Phelan does this, too). Even if he's not technically an author insert, he's so covered in plot armor that he can survive a nuclear explosion in close proximity with no shielding.

[9mm]

Have you read the Blood of Kerensky trilogy? If so, name one thing that Kai, Victor, Phelan, Hohiro, Galen, Shin, Hanse, Theodore, or Focht touches that doesn't turn into gold.

For instance, no Hatchetman was ever built that could take the punishment that the one Kai was in on Twycross took. Nor has there ever been one with the firepower it had. The axe really doesn't do that much damage - certainly nowhere near enough to shear a pristine Summoner's arm off with one blow. By the board game rules, an ejection mechanism launches a pilot so that he lands 30 meters from the Mech he bails out from. The detonation of a fusion plant has a 90-meter radius - there's no way he should have survived that. And then on Alyina, his Centurion (a 4/6/0 design) has godmode enabled - it's impossibly fast (no Centurion can outrun the rest of a scout lance), it's one-shotting undamaged Clan Mechs left and right, and then when it tumbles into the sea, there just happens to be a shelf that's just big enough for his Mech to land safely before it reaches crushing depth. Oh, and then he takes out an Elemental - you know, those guys that are "8 feet tall, solid muscle, and trained in unarmed combat from the crib" - in hand-to-hand combat (Phelan does this, too). Even if he's not technically an author insert, he's so covered in plot armor that he can survive a nuclear explosion in close proximity with no shielding.

hmmm... someone needs to reread Fiction vs Rules on page 9 of Total Warefare.

Also since your ranting about Kai, there is exactly 1 other person who had Kai's in game stats; The Black Widow. It is perfectly reasonable that THE BEST MECHWARRIOR in ALL THE INNER SPHERE to be a headcapping master.

[mangosta71]

Also since your ranting about Kai, there is exactly 1 other person who had Kai's in game stats; The Black Widow. It is perfectly reasonable that THE BEST MECHWARRIOR in ALL THE INNER SPHERE to be a headcapping master.
Except that the book specifically states that he's shooting heavy and assault Clan Mechs in the torso with medium lasers.

Also, don't you think there's something a little incongruous with a kid fresh out of the Academy being better than guys with 20 years of experience? Especially given that pilot stats improve as the pilot gains experience?

[Shyftir]

Yeah, normal pilots start out not so good and get better.

Kai effin Allard Liao, is not a normal pilot.

He's like the Mozart of mechwarriors. He's ridiculously good. It's the whole point of the character. So yes, when the fiction covers extraordinary people they do extraordinary things.

Not that they don't go way overboard sometimes, but what makes a good story doesn't necessarily make a good game. If your average pilot could do the stuff Kai could do, the game would break down into rocket tag.

I mean really in a universe that suggests that giant walking robots are more powerful and more capable vehicles than a well designed tank, all bets are off as far as being realistic.

Disclaimer: I freakin' love 'Mechs. But love doesn't make them realistically viable military hardware.

[9mm]

Except that the book specifically states that he's shooting heavy and assault Clan Mechs in the torso with medium lasers.

Also, don't you think there's something a little incongruous with a kid fresh out of the Academy being better than guys with 20 years of experience? Especially given that pilot stats improve as the pilot gains experience?

Under the rules of the time, a roll of 2 was center torso (critical) (BTMR p34), a crit roll of 10-11 was 2 crit hits, and 12 meant 3 (BTmR p.36). It was entirely possible too one shot a mech, in game. Given that Kai was a twink with infinite Edge; yep he could do that repeatedly.

Kai wasn't some kid out of academy. Kai was the son of Justin Allard, former Solaris Champ and most famous double agent ever, his mother was also a mechwarrior. He was admitted into the New Avalon Military Academy, the best military college in the Federated Commonwealth. He was the first person to draw a tie under the "La Mancha" exercise, and his tactics were then adapted by Victor to beat it. He was part of the team assembled to develop an anti-clan strategy. Him beating the Falcons on Twycross was no accident.

[Swordguy]

Moreover, stories are about the special people - the one MechWarrior in a million who can actually DO all that stuff. Stories about "Joe the MechWarrior from the Davion Outback who Never Saw Combat Except for the One Time When Private Billy Thought the Barn Silo Was an Atlas" are neither exciting to read nor good sellers.

Stories are about special people. They're always going to be about the one special guy who can BREAK the rules. Get over it. Being special doesn't make one a Mary Sue...it's a result of being a protagonist. With no protagonist, you have no story. Ergot, bitching about the people who are supposed to be special actually being special is really an argument that you'd rather have no fiction at all.

And I find that abhorrent.

[Shyftir]

Stories about "Joe the MechWarrior from the Davion Outback who Never Saw Combat Except for the One Time When Private Billy Thought the Barn Silo Was an Atlas" are neither exciting to read nor good sellers.


I just wanna point out that I lol'd at the "Thought the Barn Silo was an Atlas" thing there.

[9mm]

Stories about "Joe the MechWarrior from the Davion Outback who Never Saw Combat Except for the One Time When Private Billy Thought the Barn Silo Was an Atlas"

There is a rule book story or battleforce release in that above senerio, I feel it in my bones; and it will be lulzy.

[MeeposFire]

I think you are confusing mary sue for plot armor. It is a book. Protagonists often do things that in a game would not be possible because a fictino is beholden to making a good story and games are designed to be a fun experience (in this case a competitive one so you won't often have people wanting characters from the other side doing amazing things without the rules saying so.

This is no different from about any movie, show, etc where main character death is rare or non-existent and even if not that character death usually is for a purpose not random like it is in game.

[Telok]

Stories are about special people. They're always going to be about the one special guy who can BREAK the rules. Get over it. Being special doesn't make one a Mary Sue...it's a result of being a protagonist.

Sorry, that one made me flinch. There are many many good books of ordinary people in special situations. Once you get out of the SF/F section you can even find quite a bit with ordinary people in ordinary situations. Using 'always' here is a highly imperfect generalization.

Slightly more on topic, I never did understand why people didn't use ramming more. Not mech vs. mech ramming, that was a messy tactic that smacked of desperation or showing off. I'm talking vehicle vs. mech ramming. Taking fast hovercraft and stripping weapons and turrets for another two or three tons of armor on the front then legging mechs with them.

It's not a duelling tactic and obviously pretty useless in cities and heavily covered or broken terrain. You also need at least some mechs and, ideally, artillery to back it up. But over any space with 10+ hexes of open terrain it makes a surprisingly effective point value trade.

[Mando Knight]

One of my group's guys actually tried that. His souped up tank was getting shot up anyway, so he charged... and missed his target, an 85-ton GUN-1ERD Gunslinger.

[Swordguy]

Slightly more on topic, I never did understand why people didn't use ramming more. Not mech vs. mech ramming, that was a messy tactic that smacked of desperation or showing off. I'm talking vehicle vs. mech ramming. Taking fast hovercraft and stripping weapons and turrets for another two or three tons of armor on the front then legging mechs with them.

It's not a duelling tactic and obviously pretty useless in cities and heavily covered or broken terrain. You also need at least some mechs and, ideally, artillery to back it up. But over any space with 10+ hexes of open terrain it makes a surprisingly effective point value trade.

People do use it. They take swarms of Savannah Masters and use them as guided missiles. It's considered one of the few ways aside from cheating to be thrown out of convention play.

It's one thing to be playing, say, a Saladin hovercraft that's lost it's AC/20 and most of its armor, and decides to go out in a blaze of glory. That's what the ramming rules are for. It's another thing entirely to deliberately line up 25-ish Savannah Masters and make suicide attacks with them.

The most common rules of "good sportsmanship" when playing BT are as follows:

1) Don't be a ****.
2) Make sure ALL parties to the game agree on customs ahead of time.
3) Make sure ALL parties to the game agree on rules levels ahead of time.
4) Don't use hyper-specialized "swarms" of things - hovercraft, infantry, etc.
5) All proxies need to be clearly labelled, and if using miniatures, at least be close to the weight class of the Mech being proxied (to prevent the dreaded "floating Dire Wolf" when playing against 8 Locusts).
6) For the duration of the game, even if you really dislike the timeline or tech level being used, shut up about it. Kvetch afterwards, not during the game, and especially not right after being headcapped by advanced-tech weaponry.
7) Don't be a ****. Because it needs repeating.

[mangosta71]

Under the rules of the time, a roll of 2 was center torso (critical) (BTMR p34), a crit roll of 10-11 was 2 crit hits, and 12 meant 3 (BTmR p.36). It was entirely possible too one shot a mech, in game. Given that Kai was a twink with infinite Edge; yep he could do that repeatedly.
Sure, it's possible. Lemme run you through the math: to one-shot a Mech without breaching its armor, you have to roll a 2 on 2d6. That's a 1/36 probability. Then you have to roll a 12 (because you have to get 3 engine crits), with is another 1/36. Then all three hits have to be on the engine, which takes up half the crit slots in the location, so that's roughly 1/8 (actually a little lower, given that you reroll if you hit the same crit slot). Total probability: 1/10368. Doing it three times in a row would be that probability cubed, with exceeds 1 in 1000000000000 (that's one trillion).

Kai wasn't some kid out of academy.
Sure he was. Consider the entertainment sought by children and teenagers in the real world. Consider now that in the BT universe, Mech combat is glorified even more than combat is glorified in our society. What do you think the kids do all the time they're growing up? My bet is Mech simulators. The only advantage he would have over any of his classmates upon entry into the academy is that he has probably spent some time in a real Mech over the past 4-6 years (he would have been too small to reach the controls before the age of 12-14).

Kai was the son of Justin Allard, former Solaris Champ
Yes, and Solaris Champ means duelist. Need I remind you that Justin only ever saw actual, non-duel combat once in his career? The tactics do not apply.

and most famous double agent ever,
Irrelevant to his ability as a pilot.

his mother was also a mechwarrior.
Who never saw combat. At all.

He was admitted into the New Avalon Military Academy, the best military college in the Federated Commonwealth.
And so were thousands of other people in the universe. Not to mention that it's probably a lot like Ivy League schools, where a famous family/money is enough to get accepted regardless of actual qualifications.

He was the first person to draw a tie under the "La Mancha" exercise, and his tactics were then adapted by Victor to beat it.
And this is just ridiculous. How many years had the scenario been common knowledge? Nobody ever figured it out? His tactics weren't anything clever - it was a blatantly obvious "divide and conquer" that any idiot should have been able to see within seconds of looking at it. The fact that he was the first is an indication of how stupid the people in the BT universe are.

He was part of the team assembled to develop an anti-clan strategy.
He survived an actual encounter with the Clans, but so did a lot of other people. He was put on that council because he had a famous daddy.

Him beating the Falcons on Twycross was no accident.
No, it was worse. It was heavy-handed authorial decree.

But this is all beside the point. My problem isn't that he's special. I could live with all that if he had any flaws, but he doesn't. He's perfect. He's impossible. He's totally unrelatable, and that makes him unlikable to me. The rules that he breaks so casually are supposed to be as immutable as the laws of physics in the real world. Kai can walk outside, declare that gravity doesn't apply any more, and start flying. That's seriously ****ed up.

[9mm]

But this is all beside the point. My problem isn't that he's special. I could live with all that if he had any flaws, but he doesn't. He's perfect. He's impossible. He's totally unrelatable, and that makes him unlikable to me. The rules that he breaks so casually are supposed to be as immutable as the laws of physics in the real world. Kai can walk outside, declare that gravity doesn't apply any more, and start flying. That's seriously ****ed up.

Thats infinite edge at work :smallwink: And if you don't see his flaws you are blind; for all his gifts as a mechwarrior, he was a TERRIBLE statesman. His country ended up being swallowed by its greatest enemy, and he spent the rest of his life a damn hostage on Sian.

[Telok]

The most common rules of "good sportsmanship" when playing BT are as

Ah that would be it. The BT scene up here was always pretty scarce and when WH40K caught on it was left with only the dregs of BT society. Public play is very rare and the whine factor is high.

Of course the reason it's rare in the literature is that it would make a mockery of light mechs in open terrain, and nearly everyone in the universe seems to have congenital brain defects related to military tactics and mech design.

[Rockphed]

Moreover, stories are about the special people - the one MechWarrior in a million who can actually DO all that stuff. Stories about "Joe the MechWarrior from the Davion Outback who Never Saw Combat Except for the One Time When Private Billy Thought the Barn Silo Was an Atlas" are neither exciting to read nor good sellers.

Depending on where this went, it could be totally awesome. Or it could totally suck. I want to see it now.


People do use it. They take swarms of Savannah Masters and use them as guided missiles. It's considered one of the few ways aside from cheating to be thrown out of convention play.

It's one thing to be playing, say, a Saladin hovercraft that's lost it's AC/20 and most of its armor, and decides to go out in a blaze of glory. That's what the ramming rules are for. It's another thing entirely to deliberately line up 25-ish Savannah Masters and make suicide attacks with them.

But fielding a force of 20 (standard) hover tanks and some mechs works, yes? My ideal scenario is pitting my enemy between my hover tanks and a heavy or medium lance. Probably heavy since medium mechs tend toward either fragility or pacifism.


The most common rules of "good sportsmanship" when playing BT are as follows:

1) Don't be a ****.
2) Make sure ALL parties to the game agree on customs ahead of time.
3) Make sure ALL parties to the game agree on rules levels ahead of time.
4) Don't use hyper-specialized "swarms" of things - hovercraft, infantry, etc.
5) All proxies need to be clearly labelled, and if using miniatures, at least be close to the weight class of the Mech being proxied (to prevent the dreaded "floating Dire Wolf" when playing against 8 Locusts).
6) For the duration of the game, even if you really dislike the timeline or tech level being used, shut up about it. Kvetch afterwards, not during the game, and especially not right after being headcapped by advanced-tech weaponry.
7) Don't be a ****. Because it needs repeating.

This seems an entirely reasonable set of rules. I'm not really surprised due to battletech having been around for about 30 years and thus people having lots of experience in making things go smooth.

[Swordguy]

But this is all beside the point. My problem isn't that he's special. I could live with all that if he had any flaws, but he doesn't. He's perfect. He's impossible. He's totally unrelatable, and that makes him unlikable to me. The rules that he breaks so casually are supposed to be as immutable as the laws of physics in the real world. Kai can walk outside, declare that gravity doesn't apply any more, and start flying. That's seriously ****ed up.

The rules. Do NOT. Apply to characters in the fiction.

They never have in BattleTech, and never will. That sort of analysis is EXACTLY the sort of thing that makes the CBT writers and staff want to stop doing it entirely. It's spelled out very clearly in Total Warfare:


It is important to note that fiction, though essential in making the game universe come alive, should never be construed as rules. While Classic BattleTech fiction usually attempts to adhere to the aesthetics established by the rules, authors often use creative license to accomplish the needs of a given story.

In short, relax.

(Note: I'm trying not to come across as hostile, but it's really hard. I have to be EXTRA nice to people on CBT.com when this stuff comes up, and they get upset that fictional characters don't follow the rules...here I don't have to follow the extra rules that Demo Agents have to follow over there about being polite to players who Don't Get It, but I'm trying to do so regardless. To be clear: this is the sort of complaining that actually makes the authors resent the fanbase and not want to publish the game any more. It hurts the game, and it hurts the community. This is probably the first time you've been exposed to this counterargument, and so I'm trying to not be hostile about it; we've had people on CBT.com get told 20 and 30 times that the fiction and rules are not meant to mesh, and they still complain and wish personal ill on the writers and say that they'd rather have no fiction at all. Please don't be like that. :smallfrown: )

[Swordguy]

But fielding a force of 20 (standard) hover tanks and some mechs works, yes? My ideal scenario is pitting my enemy between my hover tanks and a heavy or medium lance. Probably heavy since medium mechs tend toward either fragility or pacifism.

It can, provided that the OPFOR is a) expecting a whole lot of hovers (telling him that "I'm bringing a bunch of hovers" is generally considered enough), and b) fielding a force of sufficient size to deal with it.

What constitutes a "swarm" is generally a large-number of low-BV units, outnumbering the OPFOR by 3-4 or more to 1. In our example, I'd expect the OPFOR to get about a company of Mechs, and maybe a platoon of vehicles. By contrast, a "swarm" would be, in a 5,000-BV game where the OPFOR would have about 3 Mechs, fielding 25 Savannah Masters (@ 200-ish BV each).

This matters only, of course, for "pick-up" play. In a campaign game with a neutral GM, anything goes (force-composition-wise).

[otakuryoga]

heh....i expect the main chars to do outrageous stuff in the books(cassie suthorn anyone?)
most of the time it doesnt bother me cause its sstuff that COULD be doable in game...like the example of Kai at twycross...you could roll CT(with 3x crit) multiple times in a row...not likely but it could happen

the example i always despised was the series with the merc commander(cant think of the unit name offhand) who piloted the captured Masakari Prime and the constant mentions of him firing the ppc's as fast as they would cycle ready...being ungodly good/lucky is one thing...but no amount of skill can change how fast a heat sink works :smallannoyed:

[Mando Knight]

To be clear: this is the sort of complaining that actually makes the authors resent the fanbase and not want to publish the game any more. It hurts the game, and it hurts the community. This is probably the first time you've been exposed to this counterargument, and so I'm trying to not be hostile about it; we've had people on CBT.com get told 20 and 30 times that the fiction and rules are not meant to mesh, and they still complain and wish personal ill on the writers and say that they'd rather have no fiction at all. Please don't be like that. :smallfrown: )
...Wow. I'm still fairly new at this, but I've found the fiction to be some of the best parts of BattleTech. It also really pushes the rulebooks up a grade to have little snippets of stuff like that.

[Spamotron]

Question about ECM units and Stealth Armor/Void Systems. I'm aware that two ECM systems on a unit do not stack. However could you have one power the stealth system while the other does regular ECM at the same time?

[Mando Knight]

Question about ECM units and Stealth Armor/Void Systems. I'm aware that two ECM systems on a unit do not stack. However could you have one power the stealth system while the other does regular ECM at the same time?

No. Only one ECM suite may be active on any given unit at any given time, regardless of what they're set to. Angel ECM suites can normally be used in their standard Angel mode, or with Advanced ECM rules (Tactical Operations) can be tuned as if it were two independent, fully-functional Guardian suites... except that those ECM rules do not mention whether an Angel suite can power both Stealth and an alternate ECM mode simultaneously, and neither do the Angel ECM rules.

[Spamotron]

Thank you.

Speaking of dropping the fiction: Did they ever do anything with Clan Blood Spirit?

Last I heard you had a Clan that was so fanatically Crusader it makes the Jade Falcons look like Wardens bottled up on its homeworld by Clan Star Adder cornered and bloodied and being humiliated by being used as a continuous training exercise rather than being finished off. While (from the Blood Spirit's perspective) all the other Clans point and laugh. Everyone forgetting that the Blood Spirit warship fleet is above Strana Mechty just like all the other Clans. It seemed like such obvious foreshadowing...

[9mm]

Thank you.

Speaking of dropping the fiction: Did they ever do anything with Clan Blood Spirit?

Last I heard you had a Clan that was so fanatically Crusader it makes the Jade Falcons look like Wardens bottled up on its homeworld by Clan Star Adder cornered and bloodied and being humiliated by being used as a continuous training exercise rather than being finished off. While (from the Blood Spirit's perspective) all the other Clans point and laugh. Everyone forgetting that the Blood Spirit warship fleet is above Strana Mechty just like all the other Clans. It seemed like such obvious foreshadowing...

something happened in clan space during the Jihad and after: exactly WHAT happened is yet to be fully explained.

[John Campbell]

There are plenty of reasons that the fiction shouldn't adhere strictly to the rules, the big one being that making the mechs a little more fragile makes the fights drag less and makes things more dramatic.

But there's no reason that the protagonists in the fiction need to be special awesome hero-princes - or extraordinarily skilled, or even particularly important to the Inner Sphere in general - for the fiction to be interesting. Look at the bits of fiction between chapters in the rulebooks... they're mostly about nobody in particular, and they're mostly a lot more interesting than Designated Hero Steiner-Davion And His Magical Invincible Friends vs. The Evil Idiot Sister.

I'd rather read about the time Private Billy thought the silo was an Atlas. That sounds potentially hilarious, if not of Sphere-shattering import. (You ever read any of the fluff involving Waythehelloutthere that Mike Miller posted on r.g.m back in the day? I'm reminded of those posts. They're the reason that any time the Fractional Accounting Police steal a quarter-ton from my designs, I designate the lost tonnage as "Armored Beer Cooler".)

[Shyftir]

One of my favorite bits of fiction was the book Path of Glory which dealt with a couple ordinary mechwarriors one clan and one DC and their mutual hatred/respect. I also read a story about a mercenary group out in the Rim which was really fun.

So while I enjoy the mainline stuff, I also like the more small fry stories too.

[mangosta71]

Yeah, the Black Thorns books (Main Event and D.R.T.) were a lot better than most of the stuff in the universe, simply because the characters were neither invincible nor important in the grand scheme of things. Sadly, James Long only wrote two books (that I'm aware of).

I probably wouldn't be so annoyed by the rampant god-modes if the characters weren't statted as if they follow the rules of the game setting, though.

[9mm]

My favorite bit of fiction was Ghost of Winter. Guy gets lucky finds an abandoned clan depot; freaks the hell out of the rampaging pirates. There was another on dealing with mercs in the prefer as well, but I can't remember the name and the one with the Stalking Bears trinary.

[Shyftir]

Yeah Ghosts of Winter was really good. I really enjoyed the one about the dispossessed guy who ends up on Solaris VII when the fighting breaks out during the FedCom Civil War.

[The Glyphstone]

So what would people rate as their top 5 or top 10 BT novels?

[otakuryoga]

my faves are the Camacho's Cabballeros ones
---- Cassie Suthorn is just plain badass incarnate

[Mutazoia]

Slightly more on topic, I never did understand why people didn't use ramming more. Not mech vs. mech ramming, that was a messy tactic that smacked of desperation or showing off. I'm talking vehicle vs. mech ramming. Taking fast hovercraft and stripping weapons and turrets for another two or three tons of armor on the front then legging mechs with them.

Well the problem was that ramming didn't do a whole lot of damage so your tank would have to rush out in the open and get point blank range to a Mech, head butt it and then sit there while the Mech stomped/blasted it to smouldering chunky bits.

On a side note...best ramming attack I ever did was with a custom locust mod, MASC and Triple Str. Myomer...walked at 14.. got swarmed by battle armor, so in desperation (ramming always is) I pulled off a 14 hex charge into the back of a Diashi. The rules state any mech carrying battle armor taking damage, the armor takes the damage first...so long story short I took exactly enough damage to squash the elementals off my mech, forced a piloting skill roll for the Diashi pilot to avoid getting knocked out, which he failed....

[Mutazoia]

It's not a duelling tactic and obviously pretty useless in cities and heavily covered or broken terrain. You also need at least some mechs and, ideally, artillery to back it up. But over any space with 10+ hexes of open terrain it makes a surprisingly effective point value trade.

Oh..and it CAN be a dueling tactic. I took a 100 ton mech...loaded it with nothing but machine guns and ammo (chucked hand and lower arm actuators to have just a bank of machine guns mounted to the shoulders), rammed my opponent, pinned him to a wall for a sec, placed a brick on the fire button and went to sleep until the mess was over...(no weapon recharge time and machine guns at PBR is an nice combo in the arena)