Battletech

[Kikaz]

So I've heard there's a Battletech Roleplaying game (or two). I'm not sure exactly what it's called (Dark Ages?), but any information on it I would welcome, especially if anyone would like to teach me some of the gameplay and/or host a PbyP if possible :smallsmile:. War stories for anyone experienced in the game would also be welcome, as it would help build up a better picture of just what the game is like.

[Aemoh87]

I can't help you, but I always wanted a good giant robot game so if you know of any please post. I wanna be a giant robot :(

[Trekkin]

The Battletech RPG is called Mechwarrior, if that helps anyone.

[Aemoh87]

is it good?

[9mm]

is it good?

Mechwarrior was a fine, if a thin veneer on top of the core "giant mechs blowing stuff up." Universe at War was to be it's update, but Catalyst has kinda gone "poof" since I lasted checked, Though I did see a copy of Intersteller Operations in a store recently; I have no idea if UaW is out now or will be soon.

[Ravens_cry]

I have an old copy I found at an thriftstore of Battletech 2nd edition. Is it any good?

[9mm]

I have an old copy I found at an thriftstore of Battletech 2nd edition. Is it any good?

I would highly, HIGHLY, recommend getting the latest edition "Total Warfare" over previous editions; This is a 80's war game; and it PLAYS like an 80's war game, fun as all hell, but a bit of number crunching that will go very slowly till you start memorizing the common modifiers. Total Warfare will save you massive amounts of headache if you ever want to add in anything other then Battlemechs; as older editions will refer you to other books. Also, all Tech, Weapons, ect. will be up to date, with current mechsheet packs/mechmaker programs that are currently in print.

[Mando Knight]

I'm in an IRL game that's using "A Time of War (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/A_Time_of_War)," released in 2009 in PDF form as its main RPG rulebook, and only recently (Holiday season 2010!) released in print, by Catalyst Game Labs. The book uses existing BattleTech rules for combat, basically taking the 'Mech rules and using them for character-scale combat as well, and providing rules for transferring character skills (this is a skills-based game) to 'Mech scale.

[9mm]

I'm in an IRL game that's using "A Time of War (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/A_Time_of_War)," released in 2009 in PDF form as its main RPG rulebook, and only recently (Holiday season 2010!) released in print, by Catalyst Game Labs. The book uses existing BattleTech rules for combat, basically taking the 'Mech rules and using them for character-scale combat as well, and providing rules for transferring character skills (this is a skills-based game) to 'Mech scale.

IT'S OUT?!?!

BRB; I need to get this. they changed the name on me though, jerks.

[Mando Knight]

IT'S OUT?!?!

BRB; I need to get this. they changed the name on me though, jerks.
I have held the book in my hands. I'm pretty sure it's out.

[9mm]

I have held the book in my hands. I'm pretty sure it's out.

*Drools and wishes he knew people who played that wasn't the grumpy shopkeep who hates anything after the 4th succession war*

[Darrin]

is it good?

Yes, in most instances, quite good.

Battletech is actually a family of all sorts of different games. The tabletop miniatures game is the original, much more of a tactical wargame than an RPG (although most die-hard Battletech players get so wrapped up in the backstory and history that a lot of roleplaying starts to bleed into the tabletop game). There were several expansions: Aerotech (aerial combat), Citytech (vehicles/buildings), Battlespace (interstellar spacecraft), and probably a couple others I'm forgetting. Battleforce was infantry, or was that the bigger combined-arms game? There was also a big strategic board game, "The Succession Wars", that I think took several weeks just to go through one turn.

The Mechwarrior RPG had at least three different editions. 1st edition I think was based on one of FASA's earlier RPGs (Prime Directive?), but from what I've been told it was klunky and not particularly useful.

2nd edition integrated much more seamlessly with the tabletop rules, and worked really well if every PC was a mechwarrior, but it got very unwieldy and wonky if you tried to do anything that couldn't be easily resolved by jumping into a battlemech and melting it down into slag with a barrage of medium lasers. Still, loads of fun.

3rd edition was much more of a departure from the previous editions, but featured character generation that was a little like trying to do integral calculus in your head while gargling napalm (about as enjoyable, too), and somewhat obtusely did not include any rules for piloting battlemechs. FASA closed its doors shortly after that, and I'm not sure if FanPro did anything with the RPG. Catalyst Games has the license now.

The Mechwarrior computer games are owned by Microsoft, which released several X-Box and PC titles. I don't think any of those titles are still being supported/developed.

Mechwarrior: the Dark Ages was a click-based collectible miniatures game created by WizKids, which got bought by Topps, and then Topps more or less killed it, I think...

There was no cartoon. No, don't even bring it up, we don't want to talk about it, it didn't exist.

[Reverent-One]

Mechwarrior: the Dark Ages was a click-based collectible miniatures game created by WizKids, which got bought by Topps, and then Topps more or less killed it, I think...

Eh, it was more the people behind MW: Dark Ages's fault, they ran the game into the ground with poor design and management.

[Mando Knight]

The Mechwarrior computer games are owned by Microsoft, which released several X-Box and PC titles. I don't think any of those titles are still being supported/developed.

MechWarrior 4 is available for free, though.

A Time of War technically lets players be powered armor or vehicle users as well, but more fudging is required to make things "work" for them if 'Mechs are on the field. (Since it uses standard BattleTech rules for 'Mech scale combat... and vehicles are essentially tanks with horribly vulnerable systems)

[MeeposFire]

I think battleforce was a combined arms game.

[Swordguy]

OK, CGL Demo Agent here. Check inside your front cover for Beta-testers, and I'm there ("Darrian Wolffe").


The current BattleTech character-level RPG is called "A Time of War", and was released in dead-tree format about a month ago after a lengthy PDF-based Beta-testing cycle. Other BattleTech games include Total Warfare (giant stompy robots and what is considered to be "BattleTech" proper; handles about 4-12 Mechs per side on average), and the built-in support for AeroSpace Fighter and WarShip combat ("AreoTech"), and the large-scale BattleMech combat game found in Strategic Operations called "Quick-strike" (handles 24-36-ish Mechs per side with ease).

Character generation is relatively simple, but uses two different systems depending on the proclivities of your group. In both cases, you start the game with a certain amount of XP, determined by the GM (usually about 5,000). The first type is called the "life module" system, in which you purchase "packages" of skills and traits (advantages or disadvantages) for a given amount of XP. Some are mandatory - if your character is from the Lyran Alliance, you have to take the Lyran Alliance Affiliation Package to begin with (costing you 150 of your 5000 XP). As you progress through your character's background, you purchase additional packages representing different stages of their life; early or late childhood, higher education, military service, and so forth. Once you've achieved the age with which you want to start the game, you add up all the XP under each individual skill, attribute, or trait and convert them over to specific skill rankings (+1, +3, etc).

The second type of character creation system dispenses with the Life Modules and just gives you 5,000 XP in a big chunk, and you can buy skills, traits, attributes and so forth directly. While this saves time, it also has the tendency to produce more heavily min-maxed characters, and so the Life Module system is the "default", and the pure point-buy is strictly optional at the GM's discretion.

The task resolution system is fairly simple. There is a task-resolution table giving base target numbers for different types of skills and attribute checks. The Communications/Field Comms skill has a rating of "Simple - Basic". Because it has this rating, its starting TN is a 7, and then you modify it per the appropriate circumstances (via a table found on pg 41). Roll 2d6, and add your skill modifier (+0 to +10). Meet or beat the TN to succeed. Higher or lower margins of success or failure can have additional effects. You can make untrained checks on any skill that is not rated "Complex - Advanced" (which is stuff like fusion reactor repair or cryptography).

The combat system is fairly lethal; armor is important and weapons, if they hit you, will mess you up. Much like Shadowrun or Cyberpunk 2020, your best defense when the shooting starts is finding cover ASAP. The book makes it very clear that if you want to "be a hero", it will most likely be posthumous. There is support for integrating the BattleTech: Total Warfare game with the A Time of War RPG, and the book provides several advanced abilities that are intended for that game.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, this game is in no way shape or form balanced". I cannot emphasize this strongly enough. To paraphrase, the CGL policy is thus:

"Game companies have spent the last 15-ish years trying to build systems that intelligent and highly-motivated people are incapable of "breaking" to screw up a game experience. They have universally failed. Thusly, screw it. We're going to design a game that is concerned with reasonably accurately portraying the game world, and aside from very gross checks and balances, we're not going to bother trying to keep every munchkin out there from gaming the system. No really. Go ahead. You want to have a Pilot/BattleMech skill of +10 (equivalent to a negative Piloting skill in Classic BattleTech) just out of character creation? You can. We feel it's up to the Game Master to decide what power level he would like the game to be run at, and to use his discretion to enforce that power level. That means every game will be house-ruled to an extent, and we support that."

This game does NOT supply a balanced game. It instead supplies a toolset that more or less accurately represents the BattleTech universe, which is itself not "balanced". It is up to the GM to restrict things like starting skill levels, equipment, or combinations of traits that give unfair game advantages. Be aware.

[FelixG]

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, this game is in no way shape or form balanced". I cannot emphasize this strongly enough. To paraphrase, the CGL policy is thus:

"Game companies have spent the last 15-ish years trying to build systems that intelligent and highly-motivated people are incapable of "breaking" to screw up a game experience. They have universally failed. Thusly, screw it. We're going to design a game that is concerned with reasonably accurately portraying the game world, and aside from very gross checks and balances, we're not going to bother trying to keep every munchkin out there from gaming the system. No really. Go ahead. You want to have a Pilot/BattleMech skill of +10 (equivalent to a negative Piloting skill in Classic BattleTech) just out of character creation? You can. We feel it's up to the Game Master to decide what power level he would like the game to be run at, and to use his discretion to enforce that power level. That means every game will be house-ruled to an extent, and we support that."

This game does NOT supply a balanced game. It instead supplies a toolset that more or less accurately represents the BattleTech universe, which is itself not "balanced". It is up to the GM to restrict things like starting skill levels, equipment, or combinations of traits that give unfair game advantages. Be aware.

You know, just by stating that policy there You have convinced me to pick the book up and give it a chance. (I was pretty firmly set in my MW 3rd edition rule sets)

And if only more developers thought this way i think there would be a lot more fun game systems out there designed for the world and not some random holy grail of balance.

It has been far too long sense I had a chance to play in a good ol Btech game!

[big teej]

I recentely reread all of my battle tech novels

I've been looking for a game like this since

if we could get a play by post/tutorial game going I WANT IN!!!!!

with a madcat
or a pillager
or an atlas WITH A SKELETON PAINT JOB

....
or a hatchetman

.... I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this.
nope.
:smallredface:

[9mm]

I recentely reread all of my battle tech novels

I've been looking for a game like this since

if we could get a play by post/tutorial game going I WANT IN!!!!!

with a madcat
or a pillager
or an atlas WITH A SKELETON PAINT JOB

....
or a hatchetman

.... I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this.
nope.
:smallredface:
duuuude, I have a 28K battlepoint mercenary force I'd like to deploy; yes I'm a crazy man.

[John Campbell]

Eh, it was more the people behind MW: Dark Ages's fault, they ran the game into the ground with poor design and management.

Alienating practically their entire existing customer base by attempting to kill the game we were there for and replace it with collectible clicky B.S. didn't help.

[9mm]

Alienating practically their entire existing customer base by attempting to kill the game we were there for and replace it with collectible clicky B.S. didn't help.

All the while confusing up the Storyline as well. I realize that the fluff was always from the point of view of the in story writer; but Jihad has been nothing but an confusing mess that some how leads to the FPG blackout and crazy shenanigans involving nights and The black widow's clone daughter.

[Reverent-One]

Alienating practically their entire existing customer base by attempting to kill the game we were there for and replace it with collectible clicky B.S. didn't help.

The game was doing well for a while, the problem was they shook things up too much with MW 2.0, with a number of those changes being poor choices in the long run. Also, they were trying to kill the Classic BT? Is that why they licensed it off to companies that would make more books for it? Strange, you'd think if they wanted to kill it they would just sit on the license and not make anything else for it.


All the while confusing up the Storyline as well. I realize that the fluff was always from the point of view of the in story writer; but Jihad has been nothing but an confusing mess that some how leads to the FPG blackout and crazy shenanigans involving nights and The black widow's clone daughter.

What's confusing about the religious fanatics who help keep the HPG's running either sabtogaging them or nuking them?

[Swordguy]

Regarding BattleTech fluff and the Jihad:

The Word of Blake Jihad (Roland - it's NOT a Real-world religious thing!) was planned by the original creators of the universe. It was an event that was slated to happen from at LEAST 1991. Wizkids had nothing to do with it. Except...

When Wizkids took BattleTech over, they decided that the most dynamic method to do so would be to "reset" the fluff back to the way the BattleTech universe originally started - a Mad Max-style universe where 1 lance of Mechs can garrison a whole planet, and Mech's are stupidly rare. I (and many others ) disagree with the way it was done, but most folks have accepted that it was necessary so that future stories set up in the BattleTech universe post-Republic of the Sphere would have somewhere to grow to. Thusly, they wrote a backstory from the end of the FASA timeline (3067) to justify why there were suddenly so few Mechs around. One of those was to kick off the Jihad, which destroys HUGE numbers of Mechs and factories. Another was having almost everybody give up their Mechs in a "guns for food/tech" program.

These alone probably would have been fine (if a little wierd; but it's happened in real-life before). What Wizkids did to screw things up is that they locked in dates when things happened. One of those was locking in the date of the WoB Jihad starting in 3067. At the time, since Wizkids had jumped forward to the 3130's, nobody really cared.

Unfortunately, FanPro (now CGL) was awarded the license to produce Classic BattleTech stuff shortly thereafter, and to continue the timeline from the end of the FedCom Civil War in 3067 up to the current year (3138 or thereabouts). That presented FanPro with a real problem - they were contractually obligated to go along with the Wizkids timeline. And having the WoB kick off the Jihad so early in 3067 simply didn't make any sense, in-universe. FanPro and CGL have tried as best they can to make this work, but they literally don't have a choice in when and how some things happen. There WILL be a Republic of the Sphere. Devlin Stone DOES exist, and if these things change, regardless of how the fans feel, CGL loses the license and the ability to make BattleTech products whatsoever.

So if you're wondering why the BT fluff is so dammed convoluted, it's because the writers are being constrained by events that are preset for them, that they have no input into in the first place.

Once we clear the Jihad, I believe CGL is planning to spend a year or two in real life doing a "time jump" to the "current day" in the storyline (3139) and pick up from there. Once they get there, they have the freedom to treat the storyline however they like. Until then, they're required to do what's prewritten for them.

Nobody's happy about it, but there it is.

[Kikaz]

Holy Hauptmann! This thread exploded! A lot of good stuff here, combining A Time For War with Strategic Operations or Total Warfare, sounds like pretty much the best game ever made... also, play by post? Let's ****ing do it!

[Reverent-One]

Unfortunately, FanPro (now CGL) was awarded the license to produce Classic BattleTech stuff shortly thereafter, and to continue the timeline from the end of the FedCom Civil War in 3067 up to the current year (3138 or thereabouts). That presented FanPro with a real problem - they were contractually obligated to go along with the Wizkids timeline. And having the WoB kick off the Jihad so early in 3067 simply didn't make any sense, in-universe. FanPro and CGL have tried as best they can to make this work, but they literally don't have a choice in when and how some things happen. There WILL be a Republic of the Sphere. Devlin Stone DOES exist, and if these things change, regardless of how the fans feel, CGL loses the license and the ability to make BattleTech products whatsoever.


Why exactly does it not make sense in-universe for WoB to kick off the Jihad in 3067?

[Swordguy]

Why exactly does it not make sense in-universe for WoB to kick off the Jihad in 3067?

The usual reasons given are twofold:

1) Military buildup. The WoB had forces appear out of nowhere to suddenly make themselves a credible threat at the start of the Jihad. Now, pretty much every faction has this happen at one time or another (the fan term is "magic warehouses"), but in the case of the WoB, the number of "surprise units" something like tripled their military strength, and added a double-digit number of full-bore WarShips to their TO&E. That's orders of magnitude more than anyone else has ever had from the magic warehouses. If the WoB had waited another decade to "build up their forces", nobody would have minded much. But they'd basically existed as a serious faction for all of 9 years by the time they did this (3058-3067 is the time they had access to factories to make equipment). In 9 years, any other faction is able to build perhaps a half-dozen regiments of Mechs. The WoB built fifty(ish). Oh, and many of the factories were damaged from being taken by the WoB, so add repair time into that - it was closer to 7 years of actual production time. Add onto this the magic WarShips (in-universe, it tends to take several years to salvage or build a WarShip; the WoB was doing it every 2 months), and there's some validity in this issue. Again, start the Jihad in 3075-3080 and it wouldn't have been NEARLY so much of an issue.

2) Motivations. They basically had a "temper tantrum" when the second Star League dissolved, and that's what started the Jihad. This is a weird motivation to a lot of people - it doesn't feel severe enough of one to justify what happened. Granted, this one's more about opinion than in-universe fact, but it's still there.

There's one more out-of-universe issue, in that there's too much stuff happening too fast. We go from the WoB taking Terra to the Jade Falcon Incursion to the Trial of Rufusal and the annihilation of Clan Smoke Jaguar to the FedCom Civil War straight into the Jihad. It's a decade of several different war happening right on the heels of each other, and it strains disbelief to have all this happening right on each other's heels with no time to rest and refit for any factions. Before, the BT universe would have a low-intensity war or two that would last several dozen years and with a 5-10 year break between them of relative peace, or a high-intensity war that lasted a year or two with a 5-10 year break in between. 3058-3067 is nothing but fighting, and then it jumps straight into the Jihad, which ends in 3085ish. So we've got nothing but one long high-intensity conflict from 3058-3085...a quarter-century. It just strains disbelief for a lot of fans on an out-of-universe perspective.

[Hawriel]

Cool thanks the the info swordguy. Ive been waiting to see if the new RPG was out. I'll think about buying the PDF. I just prefer a real book. However considering CGL troubles that my take awile of at all.

Oh and thanks for the explination about why their world is the way it is. IT really rubbed me the wrong way.

[Swordguy]

Cool thanks the the info swordguy. Ive been waiting to see if the new RPG was out. I'll think about buying the PDF. I just prefer a real book. However considering CGL troubles that my take awile of at all.

Oh and thanks for the explination about why their world is the way it is. IT really rubbed me the wrong way.

If you want to help CGL, then buy the stuff. One doesn't get out of money troubles (and the troubles they were in weren't NEARLY so bad as Frank Trollman made them sound; otherwise they wouldn't have been re-awarded the license when it came up for review about 2 weeks after the news broke) without people purchasing stuff to help them make the money, yes?

And the physical, dead-tree book IS out. Here's a link for the PDF/hardcover combo: http://battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2611

EDIT: Oh...right. Forgot about this. Note to Mods: I am a volunteer Demo Agent for CGL, and do NOT have a financial stake in the company. This is NOT For-profit advertising. I'm trying to help the guy, not make money.

There's a lot of people who don't like where the universe is. Unfortunately, that's part of having a dynamic universe. Heck, I'm sure that a hypothetical gamer who followed the Prussians through the Napoleonic period on through the Franco-Prussian War would be pretty upset about the direction their "faction" took in the years around 1914-1945. All you can do is stick with it, and know that what goes around, comes around. The alternative is a universe where nothing ever changes - like in Warhammer 40K. At least CGL is supporting differing eras of play so you can game when you want along the larger timeline.

[Kikaz]

My Space Marines can consider themselves sales fodder...

[Crossblade]

I did a quick google for BattleTech: A Time of War reviews. Found one on DriveThru RPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=64580)

The 2 star Customer Comment made me do a spit take:

A well put togther Beta Release of the Battletech universe many gamers know and love, updated to use the same rules as Shadowrun 4th edition.

While containing excellent artwork and a plethora of rules and statistics one major thing is lacking:

Statistics and pictures of the battlemechs themselves.

The mechwarrior pilot class is included, but without any mecha stats it's all but useless.

I deeply hope the final relase has these stats, otherwise playing such classes or anything to due with mecha are all but impossible.
The Table of Context preview doesn't list any Mech stats.

A mecha game without any mechas? Is this right? The Publisher's Reply says something about the mechas being in another book.
Granted, DnD is all about separate books, but players don't 'have to' buy the Monster Manuals....

Confirmation/Clarification please, if you would be so kind and if possible.

[Mando Knight]

1.) A Time of War is not a class system. (Though you do need to pick specializations in your skills, and a Trueborn needs to pick his phenotype, which in essence sets his "class")

2.) There are too many 'Mechs to have them print all of that in one volume. The 'Mech combat rules are in the other books, and there are enough 'Mechs that you need to publish multiple volumes to contain them all. Here's a list. (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:BattleMechs) The first page covers the first 200 of them. And that's not including the common armament variants. Or the vehicles, Drop and WarShips, or Aerospace fighters.

3.) They're 'Mechs, not "Mechas." :smalltongue: (The latter term, being a word taken from the Japanese, should actually remain "Mecha" in the plural, as well...)


...Oh, yeah. You can also get some free stuff (http://battletech.catalystgamelabs.com/free-downloads/), including 24 'Mech readouts.

[The_JJ]

if we could get a play by post/tutorial game going I WANT IN!!!!!


I say yes to this.

[Swordguy]

I did a quick google for BattleTech: A Time of War reviews. Found one on DriveThru RPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=64580)

The 2 star Customer Comment made me do a spit take:

The Table of Context preview doesn't list any Mech stats.

A mecha game without any mechas? Is this right? The Publisher's Reply says something about the mechas being in another book.
Granted, DnD is all about separate books, but players don't 'have to' buy the Monster Manuals....

Confirmation/Clarification please, if you would be so kind and if possible.


The RPG isn't about the Mechs, it's about the people who drive the Mechs. Or repair them. Or fly the areospace fighters. Or do covert ops. Or any of a billion other jobs in the BattleTech universe.

The RPG includes rules for personal-level combat, up through powered armor. The rules for driving Mechs are the rules in Total Warfare (yes, a separate book, because it's a separate game that is compatible with ATOW). Secondarily, at this time, there are something like 1500 Mech designs published, along with 500ish AreoSpace Fighters, 500 Tanks, 200 support vehicles, about 100 WarShips, 150 DropShips, and so forth. They are collected in Technical Readouts that have been published since 1986. There is no possible way they they're all going to appear in the book.

In-play, game scaling from system to system would work like this:

You - the heir to the Successor State of your choice - are ambushed by a Word of Blake force in your base. You dash to the hangar where your Mech is kept. On the way, you encounter a WoB trooper, have a shootout using the A Time of War rules, and emerge victorious. Then you encounter a WoB trooper in power armor. Using ATOW rules, and finding a fortuitous anti-tank weapon, you win the combat, and dash into the hangar and power up your Mech. You stride out onto the tarmac and are engaged by a WoB 'Mech. Using Total Warfare rules, you engage the enemy Mech and destroy it. Realizing that the enemy is going to win the day, you retreat to your DropShip and take off for friendly-controlled area of the planet. On the way, you are jumped by WoB AreoSphace fighters, and have a game of AreoTech (found in Total Warfare). After shooting down the fighters, you see that there is a massive engagement going on on the plains. You deploy your Mech out of the DropShip via its jump jets, and enter a regiment-on-regiment game of Quickstrike (found in the Strategic Operations book). After the battle, your side is victorious - barely - and there's more WoB forces headed your way. Your unit boards its DropShips and take off-planet, docking with your interstellar-capable WarShip. On your way out of the system, you are attacked by WoB WarShips, and break out the Warship Combat Rules found in Strategic Operations. During the battle, a boarding pod containing a bunch of marines attaches itself to the hull of your WarShip, and you and several other friendly MechWarriors engage the marines in a room-to-room fight though the WarShip using the rules found in A Time of War. You defeat the WoB and escape the system. As quickly as you can, you report back to your capital world, where your parent, the lord of your Successor State, puts you in charge of the defense of that sector. You are now in command of a dozen Regiments and a half-dozen WarShips, moving from planet to planet and exterminating the Word forces using the Interstellar Combat Rules found in the upcoming book, Interstellar Operations.

So you see, A Time of War only covers a single level of engagement in a unified system that will allow you to control anyone from a single infantryman all the way up through an entire Successor State. A Time of War is not a stand-alone product, but is designed to be interwoven with the entire BattleTech core book line: Total Warfare, Tactical Operations, Strategic Operations, Interstellar Operations, and A Time of War.

In short, the reviewer doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

[Crossblade]

1.) A Time of War is not a class system. (Though you do need to pick specializations in your skills, and a Trueborn needs to pick his phenotype, which in essence sets his "class")
Ok, so I saw classifications and thought class. It's a genera caused bias. Most table top RPGs are class based. Not enough aren't.


3.) They're 'Mechs, not "Mechas." :smalltongue: (The latter term, being a word taken from the Japanese, should actually remain "Mecha" in the plural, as well...)
I could start a "Everything is better in Japan" fanboy counter argument (TvTrope's Katanas Are Just Better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KatanasAreJustBetter) mentions something about "Nippophiles", a term I can't find a definition for)
But it would all be futile, because I will admit, I said "mecha" because the review said it, and was confused which term was correct to us. So my bad. :smalltongue:
(I did use the word "Mech" before that in my post though)


2.) There are too many 'Mechs to have them print all of that in one volume. The 'Mech combat rules are in the other books, and there are enough 'Mechs that you need to publish multiple volumes to contain them all. Here's a list. (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:BattleMechs) The first page covers the first 200 of them. And that's not including the common armament variants. Or the vehicles, Drop and WarShips, or Aerospace fighters.
Wow. That's quite overwhelming. At a quick view, this doesn't look like an easy game to jump into and optimize easily. :smallfrown:


Makes me wish I had the ability and resources to form/create a simpler Mech Game System. Create-a-Character pilot, Create-a-Mech Part-by-Part by cost... type of system. Sure anyone can make a game, but it usually takes an experienced person to make a good game; I'm well aware I lack experience to formulate my desired game into a full fledged working game that's good. *sigh*

[Swordguy]

Wow. That's quite overwhelming. At a quick view, this doesn't look like an easy game to jump into and optimize easily. :smallfrown:

That's partially because you aren't SUPPOSED to optimize in these games the way people do in D&D. There's absolutely no challenge in it. There are options that are clearly, 100% better than anything else. The only "balancing" agents are in-universe constraints, the GM's say-so, and the player's desire to be challenged.

Also, be aware the BattleTech has been around since 1984/85 (depending on whether or not you count BattleDroids), and the core rules really haven't changed at all. Mechs published in 1984 are still totally valid units in the game. Thus, you've got 25 years of real-world stuff going into these games. 25 years of Mech designs. There isn't another game on the market that's had so little rules change and so much stuff published for it. BattleTech is actually on the same tier as Star Wars or GURPS for number of sourcebooks and novels (seriously, there's something like 110 novels published to date for the game universe, something like 200 sourcebooks and rulebooks, 20 boxed sets, a dozen video games...). It's just that everybody else has new editions that invalidate previous stuff, while BattleTech generally doesn't.

It is intimidating, I'll grant that. But each individual "thing" is fairly simple. Want a Mech designer? Go download Solaris SkunkWerks - a free, official BattleMech designer that has every Mech ever published in its database and gives you the capacity to design your own. If you just want to play the BattleTech board game with custom Mechs, that, the free quick-start rules, two bottle caps with an arrow marking the front facing, 2d6, and a hex map are all you need.

The complexity of the game is totally customizable to the user's desires. As much or as little as you like...

[MeeposFire]

Ok, so I saw classifications and thought class. It's a genera caused bias. Most table top RPGs are class based. Not enough aren't.


I could start a "Everything is better in Japan" fanboy counter argument (TvTrope's Katanas Are Just Better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KatanasAreJustBetter) mentions something about "Nippophiles", a term I can't find a definition for)
But it would all be futile, because I will admit, I said "mecha" because the review said it, and was confused which term was correct to us. So my bad. :smalltongue:
(I did use the word "Mech" before that in my post though)


Wow. That's quite overwhelming. At a quick view, this doesn't look like an easy game to jump into and optimize easily. :smallfrown:


Makes me wish I had the ability and resources to form/create a simpler Mech Game System. Create-a-Character pilot, Create-a-Mech Part-by-Part by cost... type of system. Sure anyone can make a game, but it usually takes an experienced person to make a good game; I'm well aware I lack experience to formulate my desired game into a full fledged working game that's good. *sigh*

Easy optimization choice for you in regards to mechs. Take the heaviest clan mech with an extra light engine. It is a good rule of thumb if you want the best destructive power.

[Crossblade]

First, I'd like to point out I didn't see your post before my previous post before I posted.
.... :p
Just as a time reference on my point of view for my previous post.


The RPG includes rules for personal-level combat, up through powered armor. The rules for driving Mechs are the rules in Total Warfare (yes, a separate book, because it's a separate game that is compatible with ATOW).

Ah, there's the key aspect I completely and utterly missed and was looking for!
Everything else is icing. Delicious, delicious, mounds of icing.

Now that everything is in proper perspective for me, the game DOES look awesome in its grandeur! I'll likely be spending the next 3 days going over the free source to familiarize myself with the system.


In short, the reviewer doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. Indeed. She likely had the same issue I did, and didn't realize it was not a stand alone.



Take the heaviest clan mech with an extra light engine.
Ah yes, the Big Red Button.
I had a friend who would tell me about a Mech Game he used to play, never new the title of the system, had a hunch it was BattleTech, this thread confirms it. He would tell me gaming stories about how he scavenged a giant mech in a battle with large missles set to fire with the press of a "Big Fuzzy Button".

[Shyftir]

Is this the part where we start arguing whether we like missiles, lasers or ballistics more?
PPCs rock!
I squeed when I saw this thread title. I freakin' love Battletech/Mechwarrior. Also having so many different levels of rules is very cool because when you get tired of one rule-set you just change scales.

I used to be part of a PbP freeform Battletech game. But be warned, such groups are basically collaborative novel writing.



P.S. For more simple mecha try M&Ms anime sourcebook.

[Crossblade]

P.S. For more simple mecha try M&Ms anime sourcebook.

I took a very quick look at that, if memory serves me right, the heavy orange/yellow stat blocks in the rules game me ADD/ADHD and I couldn't concentrate on ready any of it.

Edit: Correction, the book I looked into was M&M Mecha and Manga. Yellow section was Ch 2, "Manga Heros" that repulsed my eye with brightness and non standard character stat blocks. So I didn't even get a full review of the entire book. Probably didn't help that I don't have motivation of a group to participate it in, but that's side tracking. Back to looking through Battle Tech for me.

[MeeposFire]

Is this the part where we start arguing whether we like missiles, lasers or ballistics more?
PPCs rock!
I squeed when I saw this thread title. I freakin' love Battletech/Mechwarrior. Also having so many different levels of rules is very cool because when you get tired of one rule-set you just change scales.

I used to be part of a PbP freeform Battletech game. But be warned, such groups are basically collaborative novel writing.



P.S. For more simple mecha try M&Ms anime sourcebook.

I like energy weapons so lasers and PPCs for me please!

[Mando Knight]

Is this the part where we start arguing whether we like missiles, lasers or ballistics more?
PPCs rock!

PPCs, when you have the sinks to support them, are freaking LIGHTNING GUNS. They're easily my favorite energy weapon, roughly tied for favorite gun overall with the Gauss Rifle (except when it blows up. That thing is nasty when it gets hit).

However, the group I'm in has a rather sensible approach to weapons: there's basically two types, the ballistic/energy/missile bit notwithstanding.

First, there's punch-through weapons. PPCs, Gauss Rifles, anything with a single hit and lots of damage. They're meant to hammer the enemy's armor, hopefully opening it up for the second category...

...Which are Crit-Finders. They're anything you can mount in large numbers (like lighter lasers and ballistics) or are cluster-hit weapons (like missiles). They're called Crit-Finders because that's what they do... every hit that gets through armor (which is degraded on every strike) will threaten a critical hit (which shuts down systems). Since these weapons spread out their damage, if they hit areas with weakened or no armor, they will generally get a couple critical hits. Or they might find some poor sap's head.

Of course, with every dichotomy, there has to be a bit of blending. There are a few heavy weapons that deliver small clusters, and some cluster weapons with decent punch per hit, weapons that function as punch for lighter 'Mechs but are mounted in banks for heavier ones, and so on. And flamers, which are amusing for shutting down enemy 'Mechs without seriously damaging them... until your heavier guns come in and crush it because it's a sitting duck.

[FelixG]

ALSO:

If you dont want to buy the total warfare book to play out the mech or aero battles you could look into the program MegaMek

It has almost all Battlemechs/vehicles/warships ect... included in it and is free!

http://megamek.sourceforge.net/

Also saves you from learning a number of niche rules if they dont particularly pertain to you.

I have had great fun pitting myself + AI vs a few players as well, where the main force is controlled by my AI and I control a few critical mechs to give a small bit of thinking and more worrisome tactics to combat the players.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yanno what, I still wanna see a movie with modern-day graphics capabilities do a Battletech movie. Start out with 3025.

I wanna see a skirmish with light mechs, with a couple of mediums being particularly scary in the fight... only to have ALL of them run like hell when the Atlas comes over the hill :smallbiggrin:

[9mm]

ALSO:

If you dont want to buy the total warfare book to play out the mech or aero battles you could look into the program MegaMek

It has almost all Battlemechs/vehicles/warships ect... included in it and is free!

http://megamek.sourceforge.net/

Also saves you from learning a number of niche rules if they dont particularly pertain to you.

I have had great fun pitting myself + AI vs a few players as well, where the main force is controlled by my AI and I control a few critical mechs to give a small bit of thinking and more worrisome tactics to combat the players.
Megamek is ok, the fact it doesn't get some of the LoS rules bugs me sometimes.

As optimisation, while I can only speak for the the large scale combat part (battlesuit and up) your limiting factors are Battlepoints or C-bills; I have a modified devestator with nearly double theoretical throwwieght as the orignal; and nearly double the cost to build :smallamused:


Yanno what, I still wanna see a movie with modern-day graphics capabilities do a Battletech movie. Start out with 3025.

I wanna see a skirmish with light mechs, with a couple of mediums being particularly scary in the fight... only to have ALL of them run like hell when the Atlas comes over the hill :smallbiggrin:


My standard "this is battletech" is a Stinger, Panther, Hussar, Commando vs an escaping Atlas. Currently the lightmechs are winning with 2 out of the 3 games.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My standard "this is battletech" is a Stinger, Panther, Hussar, Commando vs an escaping Atlas. Currently the lightmechs are winning with 2 out of the 3 games.

The problem is 'escaping'... which an atlas generally doesn't need to do.

Hussar is a one-shot wonder. You hit it, and it blows up. Lead it into terrain where it can't use it's mobility, and it's a sitting duck.

The Panther and Commando are a bit more interesting, but again, as long as you don't let them set up back-shots, you shouldn't have too many problems killing them. The Panther is weak duck in open terrain, although the earned name of 'alley cat' is appropriate in urban settings, due to snipe shots with the PPC. However, lock it up, and it goes down quick too.

So generally, either the Hussar or the Panther will be a problem. Urban settings have too many twists and turns for the Hussar to rack up many to-hit modifiers, and out in the open, the panther is an easy kill.

However, as with any Assault mech, an Atlas was never designed to attack multiple opponents solo. It was designed to work as a lynchpin to a formation.

The scene I envision is where one side fields an atlas, and the other side quickly retreats because they have nothing which can reliably harm it while still surviving against what forces they already are engaged in.

I was also thinking of a couple of Catapults stepping up on a ridge and raining fire down on the battle, destroying mechs with relative impunity... only to have a Highlander jump up and demonstrating the 'Highlander Burial'.

[Swordguy]

The Panther and Commando are a bit more interesting, but again, as long as you don't let them set up back-shots, you shouldn't have too many problems killing them. The Panther is weak duck in open terrain, although the earned name of 'alley cat' is appropriate in urban settings, due to snipe shots with the PPC. However, lock it up, and it goes down quick too.

You can kill an Atlas with a single Panther pretty easily. It requires only that you aren't fighting in an "arena", but are on rolling mapsheets.

See the problem with the Atlas is that it's got a terrifying amount of close-in firepower. But once you get past 12 hexes, all its got is a single LRM-20 with 12 shots. Statistically, if it's chasing a Panther who keeps jumping backwards 4 hexes (meaning the Atlas will never catch up if there's any meaningful terrain whatsoever), it'll hit with 4-5 volleys of those 12, doing about 12 points of damage per volley. 48-60 damage isn't enough to even take off half of the Panther's armor. And once it's out of ammo, the PPC of the Panther will, eventually, kill the Atlas.

Oh, it's not a guarantee that the Panther will live through the LRM shots - but it's pretty likely. There's always the chance of multiple LRM groups to the head, or other "lucky" groupings or shot placements that'll win the battle for the Atlas. But 13 times out of 15 or so (the CBT community ran this one a while back), the Panther can kill the Atlas on its own.

Note that this assumes a 3025 Atlas, which is what most people mean and how I read the scenario. Some of the modern versions do have long-range throw-weight...but most don't.

[Kikaz]

Yanno what, I still wanna see a movie with modern-day graphics capabilities do a Battletech movie. Start out with 3025.

I wanna see a skirmish with light mechs, with a couple of mediums being particularly scary in the fight... only to have ALL of them run like hell when the Atlas comes over the hill :smallbiggrin:

If this ever gets done, we may not need a movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONEjoRQ0Cg8&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Warhammer, Atlas, and Jenner huzzah! They look absolutely perfect!

[Rockphed]

At some point I want to run a game of this system. Not with one of the players being an heir to a throne. No, with them being a small team of mech-pilots who got banished to the far end of a planet for some reason with only a tank right before the clans rolled in. I was planning to run this before I knew that there was actually a game with proper stats for mechwarriors. Now I need to get some money and figure out where I can buy it. :drool: Oh, yes. The horror that players would face trying to fight the clans with nothing but a tank and whatever they can salvage. Muwahahahahah!

[9mm]

You can kill an Atlas with a single Panther pretty easily. It requires only that you aren't fighting in an "arena", but are on rolling mapsheets.

See the problem with the Atlas is that it's got a terrifying amount of close-in firepower. But once you get past 12 hexes, all its got is a single LRM-20 with 12 shots. Statistically, if it's chasing a Panther who keeps jumping backwards 4 hexes (meaning the Atlas will never catch up if there's any meaningful terrain whatsoever), it'll hit with 4-5 volleys of those 12, doing about 12 points of damage per volley. 48-60 damage isn't enough to even take off half of the Panther's armor. And once it's out of ammo, the PPC of the Panther will, eventually, kill the Atlas.

Oh, it's not a guarantee that the Panther will live through the LRM shots - but it's pretty likely. There's always the chance of multiple LRM groups to the head, or other "lucky" groupings or shot placements that'll win the battle for the Atlas. But 13 times out of 15 or so (the CBT community ran this one a while back), the Panther can kill the Atlas on its own.

Note that this assumes a 3025 Atlas, which is what most people mean and how I read the scenario. Some of the modern versions do have long-range throw-weight...but most don't.


The problem is 'escaping'... which an atlas generally doesn't need to do.

Hussar is a one-shot wonder. You hit it, and it blows up. Lead it into terrain where it can't use it's mobility, and it's a sitting duck.

The Panther and Commando are a bit more interesting, but again, as long as you don't let them set up back-shots, you shouldn't have too many problems killing them. The Panther is weak duck in open terrain, although the earned name of 'alley cat' is appropriate in urban settings, due to snipe shots with the PPC. However, lock it up, and it goes down quick too.

So generally, either the Hussar or the Panther will be a problem. Urban settings have too many twists and turns for the Hussar to rack up many to-hit modifiers, and out in the open, the panther is an easy kill.

However, as with any Assault mech, an Atlas was never designed to attack multiple opponents solo. It was designed to work as a lynchpin to a formation.

The scene I envision is where one side fields an atlas, and the other side quickly retreats because they have nothing which can reliably harm it while still surviving against what forces they already are engaged in.

I was also thinking of a couple of Catapults stepping up on a ridge and raining fire down on the battle, destroying mechs with relative impunity... only to have a Highlander jump up and demonstrating the 'Highlander Burial'.

Its played on ye-old slightly wooded hills that comes with the starter kit, I vary the timeline. All 3 games have come down to who uses the heavy woods effectively, first time I ran it the panther scored the death shot (headshot naturally) while jumping between the two hills. However on clarification on "escaping," its a bandit in the Atlas, he grabbed the biggest thing he could find.

[MeeposFire]

You can kill an Atlas with a single Panther pretty easily. It requires only that you aren't fighting in an "arena", but are on rolling mapsheets.

See the problem with the Atlas is that it's got a terrifying amount of close-in firepower. But once you get past 12 hexes, all its got is a single LRM-20 with 12 shots. Statistically, if it's chasing a Panther who keeps jumping backwards 4 hexes (meaning the Atlas will never catch up if there's any meaningful terrain whatsoever), it'll hit with 4-5 volleys of those 12, doing about 12 points of damage per volley. 48-60 damage isn't enough to even take off half of the Panther's armor. And once it's out of ammo, the PPC of the Panther will, eventually, kill the Atlas.

Oh, it's not a guarantee that the Panther will live through the LRM shots - but it's pretty likely. There's always the chance of multiple LRM groups to the head, or other "lucky" groupings or shot placements that'll win the battle for the Atlas. But 13 times out of 15 or so (the CBT community ran this one a while back), the Panther can kill the Atlas on its own.

Note that this assumes a 3025 Atlas, which is what most people mean and how I read the scenario. Some of the modern versions do have long-range throw-weight...but most don't.

See I was thinking of the later version with a Gauss rifle, two ER large lasers, and an LRM 20. That should be plenty of firepower to own this fight.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yea, that's the one thing about a Panther... that PPC can, eventually, headshot a mech, if it gets lucky. However, it's fairly light armor and low speed for a Medium mech. It's definitely a nasty scrapper of a mech, no doubt.

Hussars are pretty much the same thing, writ smaller. If you can lock it up, anything will take it down. The problem is hitting the bastard.

Honestly, if I were the Atlas, I'd sit my butt in the heavy woods, and dare them to close. Only the Panther has anything that can really outrange the Atlas over the long-term.

[Togo]

I always end up going for Ballistics.

My favourite mech was a variant Hunchback (to be precise, a grand dragon modified to a hunchback style build). Not the best design, but very fun to play.

The key to enjoyable mechwarrior is not to let the players have entirely free choice of mechs/equipment. Some designs are simply better than others, and part of the fun is trying to pull off a mission with mechs that may not be particularly well suited to the task, or just plane old badly designed.

I also used to have fun designing vehicles. My favourites were the fast helicopers, and the submarine armed with twin longtoms.

[Mauther]

25+ years and Btech is still kicking? Man I've missed this game. Some of the best absolute fluff ever published. The house books, the tech readouts, etc. You could anjoy months just reading the background and setting without ever even getting into actual dice rolling. Haven't been to a Con in years but the Battletech games were always the highlight, especially the 12-16 hour marathon games (battalion v battalion, 40 mechs per side). Not to mention the ridiculous amounts of money I blew on the VR version at the old Virtual World sites. And the high lethality of the combat system for the RPG was really enjoyable.

One question maybe you can answer Swordguy. Any word if the rights situation on the so-called Unseen mechs ever got resolved. I know they were released in 2009, and then locked down again. Rumour had it that was one of the major stumbling blocks on the new PC version, because they were gearing for the classic designs.

[shuyung]

I suspect it's in exactly the same state it has been ever since FASA settled with Harmony Gold to undisclosed terms lo these many years ago. Of course, you'll note that Harmony Gold never wanted to defend image rights against Microsoft, which you would think would be an enormous arrow in the quiver of CGL.

[9mm]

One question maybe you can answer Swordguy. Any word if the rights situation on the so-called Unseen mechs ever got resolved. I know they were released in 2009, and then locked down again. Rumour had it that was one of the major stumbling blocks on the new PC version, because they were gearing for the classic designs.

The original Unseen designs are currently still the property of Harmony Gold, however Project Phoenix allowed new pictures to take the originals place in for any thing after 3050ish as they go through major tech upgrades. The PC game is in trouble because while harmony gold had given permission via e-mail, they pulled it right as the trailer was released (maliciously IMO) sending Mechwarrior 5 into legal hell; or at least that's the rumor.

[9mm]

Yea, that's the one thing about a Panther... that PPC can, eventually, headshot a mech, if it gets lucky. However, it's fairly light armor and low speed for a Medium mech. It's definitely a nasty scrapper of a mech, no doubt.

Hussars are pretty much the same thing, writ smaller. If you can lock it up, anything will take it down. The problem is hitting the bastard.

Honestly, if I were the Atlas, I'd sit my butt in the heavy woods, and dare them to close. Only the Panther has anything that can really outrange the Atlas over the long-term.

hense the "escaping" part, makes camping an non-starter.:smallwink: However setting up a temp fire hole in the woods is the smartest thing for him to do; he just can't do it for long.

[FelixG]

One question maybe you can answer Swordguy. Any word if the rights situation on the so-called Unseen mechs ever got resolved. I know they were released in 2009, and then locked down again. Rumour had it that was one of the major stumbling blocks on the new PC version, because they were gearing for the classic designs.

There are new versions of the Unseen, not a big fan of them though

The Reseen Marauder:
http://www.heavygauss.com/HEAVY/marauder10.jpg

Reseen Warhammer:
http://www.scrapyardarmory.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/warhammer01.jpg

Reseen Pheonix Hawk:
http://www.heavygauss.com/MEDIUM/phoenixhawk6.jpg

Also, on the topic of hiding inthe woods, just hope they dont get lit on fire by a missed shot :smallbiggrin:

[John Campbell]

Yea, that's the one thing about a Panther... that PPC can, eventually, headshot a mech, if it gets lucky. However, it's fairly light armor and low speed for a Medium mech. It's definitely a nasty scrapper of a mech, no doubt.
The Panther's light-armored for a medium, but it isn't a medium. It's a light mech by actual tonnage, and is massively armored for a light. By proper usage doctrine, it's a mobile heavy mech.

Most lights have little armor, lots of speed, and not much firepower, most of it short-ranged. The Panther isn't built like that. It's built like a heavy mech. It's slow (but jump-capable), near-max armor, and has the heavy long-range gun backed up by SRMs for close-in use. Glue two of them together and you've basically got a Thug. You can't use a Panther for the run-and-gun tactics that most light mechs can and must use (unless you're fighting something really slow, like an Atlas or an Annihilator), but it can stand in a line and slug it out with much heavier mechs, which is suicide for most mechs its weight.


Hussars are pretty much the same thing, writ smaller. If you can lock it up, anything will take it down. The problem is hitting the bastard.
The Hussar, on the other hand, is light mech taken to the extreme. Faster'n hell, but it's got tin foil for armor. If it stops moving, it dies. Anyone gets a good shot at it despite its movement modifier, it dies. Unlike most lights, though, it does have a good medium-long-range gun so that it doesn't have to give the enemy that good shot to get one of its own.


Honestly, if I were the Atlas, I'd sit my butt in the heavy woods, and dare them to close. Only the Panther has anything that can really outrange the Atlas over the long-term.
I think I'd use the Commando and Stinger to draw LRM fire, see if I can coax the Atlas into shooting at them instead of at the mechs that can outrange everything else the Atlas carries... and then pick it apart with PPC and large laser when it runs out of missiles.

[Gnoman]

ALSO:

If you dont want to buy the total warfare book to play out the mech or aero battles you could look into the program MegaMek

It has almost all Battlemechs/vehicles/warships ect... included in it and is free!

http://megamek.sourceforge.net/

Also saves you from learning a number of niche rules if they dont particularly pertain to you.

I have had great fun pitting myself + AI vs a few players as well, where the main force is controlled by my AI and I control a few critical mechs to give a small bit of thinking and more worrisome tactics to combat the players.

If you like MegaMek, try MekWars. MekWars is a campaign module using the MegaMek engine for battles. The server limits you to certain rulesets and availiable designs (the most popular one is 3025 era.)

[Shyftir]

So what is your favorite mech design?

Personally I'm a big fan of the Uziel.

[The Deej]

Ah, battletech. Though I have never been privileged to grace the tabletop game, I have read many of the novels and played all of the PC games from MW2 through MW4: Mercs. If I'm to pick a favorite, the Mad Cat/Timberwolf has always held a special place in my heart.

[J-H]

Same game experience as Deej. I have most of the books from 3025 up to the Refusal War. Great political background with lots of room for good storytelling.

There's also some truly excellent fanfic out there (the Ngo-verse).

The "Re-seen" mechs look like Clan designs...they are the style of newer mechs, not old 3025/earlier designs. Too light and angular, and where's the top gun on the Marauder? The only one that "works" is the Phoenix Hawk.

Favorite Mechs:
Panther
Hunchback
Mad Dog (Vulture)
Thor
Marauder (old)


MechCommander 2 can be beaten using nothing but a bunch of Panther-configured Wolfhounds. 1 PPC/ER PPC, jump jets, max armor, and mass deployment. Run and repair when damaged.

[big teej]

I am begging for a tutorial play by post here......

BEGGING I TELL YOU

gimmie my pillager and I'll be happy I promise!!!! :smallredface:

or a madcat
or an atlas
or a daishi
or a hatchetman
or a centurion
thor?
orion?
bushwacker?
I'M BEGGING HERE
I WANNA BLOW @#$^ UP!!!!

[Swordguy]

One question maybe you can answer Swordguy. Any word if the rights situation on the so-called Unseen mechs ever got resolved. I know they were released in 2009, and then locked down again. Rumour had it that was one of the major stumbling blocks on the new PC version, because they were gearing for the classic designs.

K, that's a bit of a can of worms. I'll try and keep it short.

In 1983-ish, while CBT was being developed, Jordan Weisman went to the guys in Japan who created Macross and asked if he could use the images for a game he was designing. The Japanese guys said yes. Unfortunately, the previous year, Harmony Gold had gotten the same Japanese guys to sell them "exclusive" rights to those images (so they could create Robotech). Now, in Japan, you CANNOT have exclusive rights to something like this (which is the reason they have so many doujin comics using other people's properties). So by Japanese law they did nothing wrong. By American copyright law, however, FASA was fraudulently given permission to use these.

For several years, both Harmony Gold and FASA used the same images, and neither one of them really wanted to get the lawyers involved. However, in the early 1990's, the toy company Playmates talked to Harmony Gold about expanding their Exo-Squad toy line. They used many of the Macross images in their toy line. FASA was annoyed, but it wasn't until Playmates straight-up ripped off the Mad Cat/Timber Wolf design (a 100% FASA design) to use as an e-Frame (see spoiler) that FASA called in the lawyers. Playmates got upset that they were being sued, and sicced Harmony Gold on FASA. The whole thing ended up being settled out of court, but the judge made a special note that "nobody was reall at fault, but everyone involved was guilty of gross stupidity".

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Funny/EXOSquad-proto1.jpg

So, the aftermath. FASA went on a tear, removing ALL designs that hadn't been done totally "in-house", including designs done by an external company (Victr Musical Industries) whom FASA had contracted to design Mechs. This included the original Macross designs, along with designs from the specifically open-source cartoons Crusher Joe, and Dougram: Fang of the Sun. These designs were dubbed "Unseen", and while they still existed in-universe and remained 100% legal for play, they were not allowed to be visually depicted in any official product. Some of the Mechs were given in-universe "makeovers" in TRO: Project Phoenix so they could be depicted in the artwork, but this only slved the issue insofar as the "makeovers" happened in 3067...artwork depiciting, say, 3030 would require the older artwork.

This persisted for about 15 years (1994-2009), until Catalyst Game Labs (the current producers of BattleTech) dropped a bombshell in July of 2009. Due to some changes in the way copyright law was being interpreted, they were bringing back the Unseens. The euphoria lasted about 5 weeks, until Harmon Gold re-filed suit to ensure that the Macross-sourced Mechs would remain Unseen. So, as of now, all of the Mechs sourced from Crusher Joe and Dougram, or anywhere else EXCEPT Macross are totally legit units in BattleTech, freely able to be depicted by any artist. These Mechs include the Shadow Hawk, Griffin, Wolverine, Thunderbolt and BattleMaster.

Regarding the video game, the Unseen were planned to be involved in the game, but given makeovers so they resembled but were visually distinct from the original Macross-sourced versions. Harmony Gold, however, has gotten involved claiming that they own the entire concept of "giant bipedal war machines" in the United States, and ths any video game depicting them is a challenge to their copyright.

That's pretty much the whole deal. FASA never "stole" any designs from anyplace, and CGL, their heirs, are currently involved in a bunch of legal BS with Harmony Gold. A bunch of the Mechs we've lost have been returned, but 14 of them remain gone for the forseeable future (until somebody buys HG and gives the rights to CGL).

Clear as mud? And yes...that's the short version. :smallwink:

[big teej]

can you really lay claim to a copyright like that?


its like copyrighting the idea of 'space marines'

its just there

how can you...

bu...

I now know how Elan feels when he tries to do math....

owwwww...............:smallfrown:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Harmony Gold, however, has gotten involved claiming that they own the entire concept of "giant bipedal war machines" in the United States, and ths any video game depicting them is a challenge to their copyright.

This is complete, utter, and total BS, and could *NEVER* stand up in any reasonable court of law. You can't copyright, or even patent, an entire concept. That would be like Microsoft trying to copyright the concept of a GUI-OS.

They might be able to lay claim to the Macross-based designs, but that's *ALL* they would have any remote chance of claiming copyright on. And that is only on the original designs which they laid claim to back in the '80's. Giving the mech a new design so that it no longer matched the original designs within a certain percentage mark is completely legitimate, and happens all the time. Case in point: Batman vs that owl guy from The Watchmen. Nearly identical characters. Changed *just* enough to squeak by.

In fact, they may be shooting themselves in the foot by taking that stance, because that is an easily defeated legal standing, which then leaves the door open to further losses of the rights they might have been able to have stand up in court, if they hadn't used such a flimsy standing to begin with.

[MeeposFire]

This is complete, utter, and total BS, and could *NEVER* stand up in any reasonable court of law. You can't copyright, or even patent, an entire concept. That would be like Microsoft trying to copyright the concept of a GUI-OS.

They might be able to lay claim to the Macross-based designs, but that's *ALL* they would have any remote chance of claiming copyright on. And that is only on the original designs which they laid claim to back in the '80's. Giving the mech a new design so that it no longer matched the original designs within a certain percentage mark is completely legitimate, and happens all the time. Case in point: Batman vs that owl guy from The Watchmen. Nearly identical characters. Changed *just* enough to squeak by.

In fact, they may be shooting themselves in the foot by taking that stance, because that is an easily defeated legal standing, which then leaves the door open to further losses of the rights they might have been able to have stand up in court, if they hadn't used such a flimsy standing to begin with.

The Owl guy on the watchman happens to be owned by the same company as Batman so it would not be a problem regardless.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The Owl guy on the watchman happens to be owned by the same company as Batman so it would not be a problem regardless.

Not quite, DC owns the parent company, but through a subsidiary, and was never granted rights by DC. In fact, DC distanced themselves as much as possible because it was a lot closer to 'politically incorrect' than they really wanted to get. Case in point: blue ass.

However, Marvel and DC have often skirted this line, lampooning and copying characters in both directions.

[9mm]

Not quite, DC owns the parent company, but through a subsidiary, and was never granted rights by DC. In fact, DC distanced themselves as much as possible because it was a lot closer to 'politically incorrect' than they really wanted to get. Case in point: blue ass.

However, Marvel and DC have often skirted this line, lampooning and copying characters in both directions.

See the Midnighter and his gay lover Apollo. DC owned them too... notice how long the gay batman and superman lovers stick around.

But yeah, Copyright is a issue that will make your head explode.

[Swordguy]

This is complete, utter, and total BS, and could *NEVER* stand up in any reasonable court of law. You can't copyright, or even patent, an entire concept. That would be like Microsoft trying to copyright the concept of a GUI-OS.

You're missing the point. HG has a lot of money to throw around on lawyers, while CGL does not. Thus, CGL is in the unfortunate postion that, even if they are in the right (and they did, in fact redesign the Macross Mechs for the computer game), they can't afford the court case to prove it.

And I suggest we move the topic off of copyright law. Yes, it's asinine, and really only serves the interests of the plaintiff with more money, but it has a habit of getting threads locked on these forums, and I LIKE talking about BattleTech.

[king.com]

can you really lay claim to a copyright like that?


I just want to see my beloved warhammer take to the field again :smalleek:

[Tyrant]

Not quite, DC owns the parent company, but through a subsidiary, and was never granted rights by DC. In fact, DC distanced themselves as much as possible because it was a lot closer to 'politically incorrect' than they really wanted to get. Case in point: blue ass.
Not to derail, but can you elaborate on this because that is not how I understand the situation. The DC stamp on the front cover of the graphic novel is hard to miss. I know not everyone wants to trust Wikipedia, but if you look up Watchmen and look under publication and reception it seems obvious to me that DC has backed it all the way. So, in all seriousness, if there is something I am missing (quite possible, I admit) please fill me in.

As for Battletech, my experience has been with the video games (Mechwarrior 2-4 and the X Box games) and the clix game. I liked the clix game. It had it's flaws though. I think the biggest limitation is the clix dial (likewise that is HeroClix biggest limitation in my mind). Unfortunately, that is what makes it so easy too so it's kind of the point. I know why (in terms of the story) it took so long to get to the well known factions, but I wish it would've happened sooner than it did. Too bad the Clix game and the table top game aren't the same scale. The PC games are good too. The level of customizabilitiy is great. I would love to see a part 5.

[Swordguy]

To get this thing away from the legal issues, what say we talk about the Mechs themselves, or at least share our collections? To kick things off, here's a few pics of my own stuff:

3rd Davion Guards
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Davion%20Guards/1GroupShot.jpg

Ghost Bears (painted for the GenCon 2009 Canon Event)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Ghost%20Bears/GroupShot.jpg

4th Falcon Velites
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Jade%20Falcons/GroupShot2.jpg

41st Shadow Division, Word of Blake
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/Faction%20Project/41stSDGroupShot.jpg

2 Company, Death Commandos
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Death%20Commandos/GroupShot.jpg

1st Battalion, 6th Lyran Guard (painted for GenCon 2008 Canon event)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Lyran%20Guard/1Company.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Lyran%20Guard/2Company.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Lyran%20Guard/3Company.jpg

2 Battalion, 5th Sword of Light (painted for GenCon 2008 Canon event)

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Sword%20of%20Light/GroupShot.jpg


A few Unique Minis done for display or commission

Iron Cheetah (Commssion, Mechforce UK model)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/IronCheetah6.jpg

Unseen Ice Hellion Vixen (gift for a friend whose stuff was stolen at GenCon)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/DSCN0927.jpg

Artillery-firing UrbanMech that was the one who literally nuked the Kell Hounds during the Jihad (I built the mini, brought it to GenCon, and was allowed to actually nuke the Hounds. The Mech is now canonized) along with the mini nuclear weapon template which fits on a mapsheet.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/P1010002-1.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/DSCN0956.jpg

The Prototype mini built for the new Rifleman that debuted in this year's TRO:3085. This mini was scratchbuilt and painted in 24 hours.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/TRO3085Rifleman1.jpg

BattleDroids Behemoth
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/BDBehemoth5.jpg

AS8-something Atlas, personal canon ride of the 3rd Davion Guards CO
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/McCaffeesAS8-DAtlas4.jpg

The infamous "Dancing Marauder" (built on a bet that I couldn't repose an Unseen Marauder - a notoriously difficult-to-work-with miniature)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/DSCN0037-WIP.jpg

BattleDroids Marauder (for a painting contest)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/MarauderEntry2DW.jpg


BattleMech Hockey! (This was an experiment on the limitations of the new multi-part poseable Phoenx Hawk models that snowballed out of control...)

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/DSCN0068.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/DSCN0046.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/DSCN0069.jpg


OK folks. Your turn!:smallbiggrin:

[MeeposFire]

I did not realize that the behemoth was the monster type destroid from Robotech (and whatever they call it in Macross). I know about the marauders, archers, and the like but missed behemoth. That is not a mech I have seen or even read about much.

[Swordguy]

I did not realize that the behemoth was the monster type destroid from Robotech (and whatever they call it in Macross). I know about the marauders, archers, and the like but missed behemoth. That is not a mech I have seen or even read about much.

That's because, while it got a mini (very, VERY rare) it never got an offical record sheet.

[MeeposFire]

That's because, while it got a mini (very, VERY rare) it never got an offical record sheet.

Now that is really interesting. About to say after reading all sorts of books I was really surprised I had not seen it. I wonder what its armament was and its armor. Oh and its speed.

[Swordguy]

Now that is really interesting. About to say after reading all sorts of books I was really surprised I had not seen it. I wonder what its armament was and its armor. Oh and its speed.

The nearest thing to fluff regarding the Behemoth comes from the Star League Sourcebook (rarest BT book, bar none), and the TRO 3055 for the Clan Behemoth. It basically says that the Behemoth was a failed design from Stefan Amaris made to take on a whole company of enemy Mechs and win. It was "so heavy its leg actuators shut down".

The Clan version is 100 tons with 2 Large Pulses, 2 Gausses and a max-armor, 3/5/3 profile. However, most do not believe that this represents the Amaris version, because the Clans tend to cut weight down on their Mechs (the Shadow Hawk IIC, Griffin IIC, and so forth are all MUCH lighter than their IS Tech versions). Thus, I believe that the Clans cut down a "superheavy" Mech to a 100 ton frame (coincidentally solving the actuator issue).

Unfortunately, it's otherwise all guesswork. There's some experimental superheavy Mech rules out there by Mike Miller - one of the BT rules gurus. Using that, you can build a Behemoth at about 200 tons with a 2/3 movement profile, 30 tons of armor, quad sniper artillery guns, and a sextet of large lasers (3 in each arm) and the heat sinks to use either the artillery or the lasers. That's the "best guess" right now...but in the Dark Ages, we start seeng superheavy Mechs (the Ares), so CGL is eventually going to have to come up with rules for them. Hopefully then we'll get to the "official" statline. Someday...

[Shyftir]

<---- me covets swordguy's stuff


I'm pretty jealous here. I'm the only 'Mech fan among my friends though we did try getting into the clicks game. (Didn't work out well, too little 'Mechs too much everything else.) Had a friend who was into the ccg in college but it was already dead at that point. I've gotten a few buddies to play the video games but straight up b-tech? No such luck.

I totally wish I had the friends (and money) to be into the actual real thing.

[MeeposFire]

Thanks that was really interesting. I thought having 6 PPCs were nasty enough! Artillery guns+ 6 large lasers is nasty.

[Rockphed]

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/DSCN0069.jpg

OK folks. Your turn!:smallbiggrin:

Wait, what are they using as a puck? Is that a hovercraft? Also, that is perhaps the best idea ever, mech hockey is. I shall have to see about stealing it.:smallcool:

[MeeposFire]

Think about the stats on that hockey stick. Would it do more damage than a hatchetmans axe?:smallwink:

[Hawriel]

Great mechhocky swordguy. I remember one of the plastic boxsets that came out in the late 90s. The hunchbacks leaned like a hocky player holding a stick. I wish I didnt lose them. THey where going to be painted like Redwings.

My friends way back when wanted to come up with Battletech football. A hollender was the QB and an elimental the ball. A locust had to be the kicker.

[Rockphed]

No, mech football doesn't work. Football almost never devolves into a fight. Hockey? That is much more frequent.

[John Campbell]

Wait, what are they using as a puck? Is that a hovercraft? Also, that is perhaps the best idea ever, mech hockey is. I shall have to see about stealing it.:smallcool:

Looks like a Savannah Master. I can't say I've ever played hockey with one, but I will admit to having attempted soccer on a couple of occasions.

[The Glyphstone]

Mech Hockey is the best thing ever. Also, elaborate on the nuke-firing Urbanmech, there has to be an awesome story behind this.

[Swordguy]

Mech Hockey is the best thing ever. Also, elaborate on the nuke-firing Urbanmech, there has to be an awesome story behind this.

There is indeed. I'll have to get back to it Monday evening - have my kid's baptism and the Super Bowl tonight and the drive back home tomorrow.

In my absence, talk BattleTech!

[J-H]

Nice minis!
Is it assumed that all mechs are stock for whatever time period is in play? How do you handle variants?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yanno, one of my favorite pasttimes was creating custom mechs, and building better mechs out of Tech Level 1 mechs using Tech level 2 tech. Give a Catapult an IS XL Engine, and space opens up to give it jump jets, for example. Sure, it gets destroyed easier, which is why it uses it's mobility more often. Not designed to be a solo mech, it's purpose is long-range fire support (using C3, and Semi-Guided missiles with 'targeting mechs' having TAG equipped for stupidly good to-hit numbers).

I had even written up an entire backstory about a mercenary outfit who was hired by Kurita to go out and defend a planet outpost on the edge of the Clan invasion, and while they were at it, assassinate the tech there who is no longer politically reliable.

They ended up getting the tech to work for them instead of assassinating him, and beat off the clan attack using 'anything works' tactics, including Inferno SRM's to equalize out the heat advantage, judicious use of flamers to alter terrain and block LoS with smoke to negate the Clan's range advantage, and focus-fire and physical attacks, when they could get them.

The MadCAT ended up with a Highlander Burial, although said Highlander failed a piloting check, and ended up stunned for a couple of rounds. But a highlander's kick to the head location neatly disabled it.

The other thing the mercenaries had going for it were some outdated Arrow IV launching vehicles, which were heavily employed. The Tech managed to outfit a few of the mechs with a TAG system, and gave the Arrow IV missiles the ability to work with them, so that they were very effective in combat.

After fending off the Clan attack, they managed to convince the clans that they were not a part of the IS, that they had been backstabbed by Kurita, and really didn't give a damn about them, as long as THEY were left alone.

Their tech managed to reverse-engineer the double heat sinks, and made progress into some of the other technological advances (basically, teching up to Tech 2), and so the mercenary outfit began upgrading.

They began by snatching up a bunch of 3025 mechs that were sent out here because they weren't fully functional... parts were out of service, poorly maintained... but they were STILL mechs, so they could boast about how powerful a force that was stationed out here, while really using it as an elaborate scrapyard. And began upgrading them in the mech factories they 'liberated' for their use.

Tactics are generally as follows:

TAG and C3 are used on virtually every mech, based on a very network-heavy doctrine.

Jump Jets are also on virtually every mech, based on a very mobile doctrine.

Created an Arrow IV launcher on a hovercraft frame, to be used as mobile artillery support that still has a Flank speed of 12 and can easily escape over water. Stupidly inexpensive, compared to a full mech, and provides even light mechs with significant firepower support.

Upgraded the old 3025 mechs with Tech 2 level equipment, then made a couple of unique designs, that were still based on previous models, to save on design costs.

[9mm]

oh god don't get me started on my unit. >_< The Bad Moon Jokers are a case study in player stupidity; made solely for a 28,000 point game that never happened dubbed "the cheese war".

2 companies of mechs
1 company of hover/tanks
75 power armor infantry w/VTOL transport and fire support
1 company of artillery tanks
1 lance of mobile C3 bunkers
2 areospace fighters

sadly the only mini's i have are the starter sets' included ones + 4 Rommels.

[MeeposFire]

Catapults normally have jump jets.

[J-H]

Shneeky, that sounds similar to the doctrine employed by the Suomi Warders.

http://www.dropshipcommand.com/fanfic.cgi?show=Dave_Wainio

Catapult: 65 tons, 2 big LRM racks, jumpjets, 4 medium lasers, all facing forward
Archer: 70 tons, 2 big LRM racks, 2 forward medium lasers, and 2 rear medium lasers, no jumpjets

Why is the Archer depicted as superior to the Catapult?

[MeeposFire]

Shneeky, that sounds similar to the doctrine employed by the Suomi Warders.

http://www.dropshipcommand.com/fanfic.cgi?show=Dave_Wainio

Catapult: 65 tons, 2 big LRM racks, jumpjets, 4 medium lasers, all facing forward
Archer: 70 tons, 2 big LRM racks, 2 forward medium lasers, and 2 rear medium lasers, no jumpjets

Why is the Archer depicted as superior to the Catapult?

1) It is even more classic.

2) it is 5 tons heavier which gives people a false sense of superiority.

3) Larger LRM racks

4) I think it has heavier armor

5) ARMS AND HANDS!:smallsmile:

[John Campbell]

Catapult: 65 tons, 2 big LRM racks, jumpjets, 4 medium lasers, all facing forward
Archer: 70 tons, 2 big LRM racks, 2 forward medium lasers, and 2 rear medium lasers, no jumpjets

Why is the Archer depicted as superior to the Catapult?
Assuming we're talking about the original ARC-2R and CPLT-C1... 33% more missile tubes, 50% more shots per tube, and 30% more armor. The Archer hits harder, can keep hitting for longer, and can take significantly more return fire.

It's not jump-capable, but it's a fire support mech - it doesn't need to be jump-capable. Its job is to stand on a hilltop somewhere towards the rear and rain LRM doom down on the battlefield, not to get in the middle of things and hop around like a medium mech. It does need to have deep enough magazines to be able to keep those LRMs firing through the entire fight, which the Archer does and the Catapult doesn't.

(IME, ten shots per weapon is bare minimum, and you have to be a little picky about your shots even then. Twelve shots is usually adequate. Eight shots is insufficient.)

My only real complaint about the Archer is its inability to fire both LRM racks every turn without heat buildup. When I have leeway to mod them, I usually replace the rear lasers with two more heat sinks, which fixes that. Failing that, you can sustain a 2-2-1-2-2-1 firing pattern until you shoot the magazines dry and still put 100 missiles downrange for every 90 the Catapult can fire.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yea, when I upgraded to tech 2, double heat sinks were the first thing that happened to all mechs. Also, I think the upgrade to the Catapult was an IS XL Engine, and upgrade launchers to LRM/20 with an extra ton of ammo each. This made them a very vicious mech with surprising mobility and sandblasting power. Particularly with C3 and Semi-Guided missiles.

Archers got jump jets and more ammo, and C3. They also traded out one of their ML's for a Flamer to create covering smoke to make an escape, if necessary. This gave them surprising endurance, had like 15 shots per LRM/20.

[FelixG]

Dont forget that customizing mechs voids their warranties! :P

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Dont forget that customizing mechs voids their warranties! :P

Considering the houses wanted him dead, that was not a particular concern.

[MeeposFire]

Yea, when I upgraded to tech 2, double heat sinks were the first thing that happened to all mechs. Also, I think the upgrade to the Catapult was an IS XL Engine, and upgrade launchers to LRM/20 with an extra ton of ammo each. This made them a very vicious mech with surprising mobility and sandblasting power. Particularly with C3 and Semi-Guided missiles.

Archers got jump jets and more ammo, and C3. They also traded out one of their ML's for a Flamer to create covering smoke to make an escape, if necessary. This gave them surprising endurance, had like 15 shots per LRM/20.

The first "upgrade" I know about was replacing LRMs with Arrow IVs. Then again I am not sure if that book was the be all end all anyway.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The first "upgrade" I know about was replacing LRMs with Arrow IVs. Then again I am not sure if that book was the be all end all anyway.

That's why we're starting out with 3025 versions and doing our own upgrades. Arrow IV launcher on a mech is made of Fail. Putting them on hovercraft makes much more sense.

[FelixG]

The first "upgrade" I know about was replacing LRMs with Arrow IVs. Then again I am not sure if that book was the be all end all anyway.

Was never fond of the Arrows, i prefer standard missiles.

[9mm]

Was never fond of the Arrows, i prefer standard missiles.

Arrows are nice if you have TAGS en masse, but nothing will ever really beat copperheads from a Long Tom.

[FelixG]

Arrows are nice if you have TAGS en masse, but nothing will ever really beat copperheads from a Long Tom.

Everyone I have played with hates off map arty with a passion, partly because of how well I use it :smallbiggrin: They also dislike it when aerospace is added

[9mm]

Everyone I have played with hates off map arty with a passion, partly because of how well I use it :smallbiggrin: They also dislike it when aerospace is added

We never bothered with off field, we put our Heueys on the map, often in a corner, then we played on a water map, and my friend brought in the sub with 30 arrows... yeah, he once just shelled an entire hill.

[magellan]

Catapults normally have jump jets.

Since he mentioned Kurita, he maybe was talking about the CPLT K, the variant with the 2 PPCs and without jumpjets.

[FelixG]

Since he mentioned Kurita, he maybe was talking about the CPLT K, the variant with the 2 PPCs and without jumpjets.

A catapult with 2 PPCs just seems...inefficient

[magellan]

Its a pretty mean bastard actually: 180 armor points IIRC, mainly leg armor. 2 MGs and 2 Medlasers. And it obviously has a better hole-punching capacity than the standard CPLT. (And it is obviously IS L1 tech)

Ah,look here: the stats: http://www.blue-thundernet.com/newside/mechs/3025/Catapult%20CPLT-K2.htm

[FelixG]

wow, 20 heatsinks as well! so it can maintain the fire on those PPCs

[John Campbell]

Yeah, the CPLT-K2 is a nice ride, though they should have kept the other two medium lasers instead of swapping them out for machine guns. It's still a little light on the armor, but most FASA designs are. I mean, the Catapult is tonnage-mates with the JagerMech, fergodssakes, which has less armor than a Panther, at nearly twice the weight.

Incidentally, I was looking at the JagerMech the other day, and realized that an AC/2 weighs 6 tons, and an AC/5 weighs 8 tons. 6 + 8 == 14. An AC/20 weighs 14 tons. Rip the little plink guns out of a Jager's arms, replace them with a pair of real guns, and you've got a machine that can really mess someone up in the maybe two turns it'll survive. It's got something of a heat problem and a real shortage of ammo, but given its eggshell-with-a-sledgehammer construction, the fight's not going to last long enough for it to matter. One way or the other.

I call it the JagerMonster.

And once you've used one of these on somebody once, they'll waste time killing regular JagerMechs, just in case...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah, the CPLT-K2 is a nice ride, though they should have kept the other two medium lasers instead of swapping them out for machine guns. It's still a little light on the armor, but most FASA designs are. I mean, the Catapult is tonnage-mates with the JagerMech, fergodssakes, which has less armor than a Panther, at nearly twice the weight.

Incidentally, I was looking at the JagerMech the other day, and realized that an AC/2 weighs 6 tons, and an AC/5 weighs 8 tons. 6 + 8 == 14. An AC/20 weighs 14 tons. Rip the little plink guns out of a Jager's arms, replace them with a pair of real guns, and you've got a machine that can really mess someone up in the maybe two turns it'll survive. It's got something of a heat problem and a real shortage of ammo, but given its eggshell-with-a-sledgehammer construction, the fight's not going to last long enough for it to matter. One way or the other.

I call it the JagerMonster.

And once you've used one of these on somebody once, they'll waste time killing regular JagerMechs, just in case...

The reason a JagerMech uses AC 2 and AC5 is because of the range. It was originally designed as an anti-air mech. It doesn't have the speed to be able to close with anything to USE an AC/20. Like you said, hammer in an eggshell, and that egg moves very slowly. And also like you said, only 5 shots with those AC/20's. A nice compromise I use is to replace them with AC/10's, with the extra tonnage going to additional ammo. It's got decent range, decent hitting power (can headshot a mech), and decent stamina. Sure, it's still got problems, but at least it's a halfway viable mech.

Also GG reference FTW.

[magellan]

The reason a JagerMech uses AC 2 and AC5 is because of the range. It was originally designed as an anti-air mech. It doesn't have the speed to be able to close with anything to USE an AC/20. Like you said, hammer in an eggshell, and that egg moves very slowly. And also like you said, only 5 shots with those AC/20's. A nice compromise I use is to replace them with AC/10's, with the extra tonnage going to additional ammo. It's got decent range, decent hitting power (can headshot a mech), and decent stamina. Sure, it's still got problems, but at least it's a halfway viable mech.

Also GG reference FTW.

Ha!
Never put out AC2s!
Yes, they are heavy
Yes, they do very little damage
But those things are magic!
And I am not saying that because I once TACed off an undamaged Grasshoppers head with a 10+ AC2 shot from a BJ-1!

[Gnoman]

I find AC/2s to be an incredibly nasty weapon, especially in mediums and lights, but can be really effective against assaults. You just have to be able to saber dance with it, or have other units keeping the range open.

[Hawriel]

That's why we're starting out with 3025 versions and doing our own upgrades. Arrow IV launcher on a mech is made of Fail. Putting them on hovercraft makes much more sense.

friend of mine put one on a VTOL. It would hover at max altitude on the edge of the board.

[9mm]

I find AC/2s to be an incredibly nasty weapon, especially in mediums and lights, but can be really effective against assaults. You just have to be able to saber dance with it, or have other units keeping the range open.

RELEASE THE KRAKEN!

[BobSutan]

So I've heard there's a Battletech Roleplaying game (or two). I'm not sure exactly what it's called (Dark Ages?), but any information on it I would welcome, especially if anyone would like to teach me some of the gameplay and/or host a PbyP if possible :smallsmile:. War stories for anyone experienced in the game would also be welcome, as it would help build up a better picture of just what the game is like.

Played it off and on in high school. I don't remember all the details, but I do remember having some epic battles. Every mech had hit points you could distribute across the body and when you fired at another mech you rolled to see which body part got hit. IIRC you had to deal a certain amount of damage to the armor before you could actually hurt the mech proper, although a headshot with a high powered weapon could in some cases be an instant kill, even with an ejection system.

[BobSutan]

At some point I want to run a game of this system. Not with one of the players being an heir to a throne. No, with them being a small team of mech-pilots who got banished to the far end of a planet for some reason with only a tank right before the clans rolled in. I was planning to run this before I knew that there was actually a game with proper stats for mechwarriors. Now I need to get some money and figure out where I can buy it. :drool: Oh, yes. The horror that players would face trying to fight the clans with nothing but a tank and whatever they can salvage. Muwahahahahah!

Their small squad was removed from active duty because they were caught OFO in their mechs when they were on patrol. As a result they were demoted and put no what amounts to toilet scrubbing duty watching a small comm relay. The Clans land a dropship on the other side of the planet where their base was at and all hell can break loose from there. You could have them cut their teeth with them in a tank going up a couple elementals or something with an clan ATV with their own engineers who needed to capture the comm relay for intel purposes (maybe they need to get get into the crypto or something?)

[Mauther]

I find AC/2s to be an incredibly nasty weapon, especially in mediums and lights, but can be really effective against assaults. You just have to be able to saber dance with it, or have other units keeping the range open.

I never used AC2's because they never did anything for me. However I hated facing AC2s because inevitably I'd take enough plinks to the head to put my pilot to sleep.

My favorite design has to stay classic. The AWS-8Q Awesome.http://www.solaris7.com/Images/TRO/BattleMechs/3025%20Awesome1.jpg
80 tons so it was the lightest of assualt mechs but with max armor, 3 PPCs with enough heat sinks to keep them firing, and a light laser just for S&Gs. Seeing a lance of Awesomes sweeping a table was one of the sweetest things I've ever seen. Granted, it took all day, Awesomes are slooooow. Pair the Awesome lance with a heavy recon lance of Griffins and you've got a 1-2 punch that is almost unbeatable as long as they stay in support. Until those young whipper-snappers with the fancy XL engines and endosteel came along. Practically cheating! Ruined the game! Get off my lawn! Sadly, I no longer have my mechs, I sold them years ago when I couldn't find a regular game, but I had mine in the calvary blue and gold of the 1st FedCom RCT. (It was supposed to be the Davion Heavy Guards, but I started painting them before the house books came out and I aws left scrambling for a matching unit that wasn't those money grubbing huns in the Commonwealth).

Course the earliest cheese in the game was the Lyran Fortress class dropships they used in the 4th Succession War. At the time most dropships stayed away from combat, and used their heavy firepower as deterent. The Lyran's (who's armies where predominantly heavy) would drop a group of Fortresses behind the enemy line of resistance to serve as the anvil for their assualt. And sure you could try and just run past them, but you'd have to be fast because I think the Fortress was the first official vehicle that had a Long Tom artillery piece in its arsenal, on top of a blistering array of LRMs (4x20 4x10) and lasers (6 PPC, 8 large, 16 medium)

[John Campbell]

The reason a JagerMech uses AC 2 and AC5 is because of the range. It was originally designed as an anti-air mech.
Yeah, that's what the fluff says. But have you ever seen what happens to a JagerMech when an aerospace fighter - practically any aerospace fighter - drops by? They haven't got the firepower to make anything more heavily armored than a Seydlitz take notice, and the Jager's armor stands up to the return fire like a soda can stands up to BBs. Being full of explosive ammo doesn't help, either.

The JagerMonster would actually be a better anti-air mech. AC/20s have plenty of range for ground-to-air fire, and anything it hits is going to know it's been smacked.


It doesn't have the speed to be able to close with anything to USE an AC/20. Like you said, hammer in an eggshell, and that egg moves very slowly.
It's got the same speed and engagement envelope as a standard Hunchback, and those are effective mechs in real battles - though not so much in duels where the opponent has range, speed, and room to retreat. And, unlike the Hunchback, no one craps their pants and starts concentrating fire while backing away quickly when a JagerMech heads towards them.

I haven't actually used the JagerMonster yet, but I figure against someone who doesn't know what it's got, and assuming a fight where there are other mechs around, it'll probably get ignored until the first time it uses that sledgehammer. It'll get a second shot because of the simultaneity of damage rule, if nothing else. Maybe a third if the first round of return fire doesn't tag its ammo... the Jager's only got a 30-tonner's armor, but it's still got a 65-tonner's internal structure, and it's actually pretty hard to kill a mech with crits if you don't hit ammo.


And also like you said, only 5 shots with those AC/20's.
7.5 per, actually. The Jager carries three tons of ammo; two for the AC/5s and one for the AC/2s. 'Course, the JagerMonster will get to fire maybe, if it's lucky, six of those fifteen rounds before it gets terminated with extreme prejudice.

It's not intended to be a practical mech so much as a means of seeing the expressions on people's faces when something they expected to be shooting 14 damage worth of long-range plink guns opens up at point-blank range with 40 damage in monster cannons.

And then possibly the next time they face a JagerMech, and panic and start putting all the fire they can scrounge up into it to keep it from getting close enough to use AC/20s, only to discover that it really was just the regular version.


A nice compromise I use is to replace them with AC/10's, with the extra tonnage going to additional ammo. It's got decent range, decent hitting power (can headshot a mech), and decent stamina. Sure, it's still got problems, but at least it's a halfway viable mech.
If you actually want to turn it into a decent mech, forget autocannons... replace them with PPCs, heat sinks, and armor. It'll have the same engagement range as the original Jager (assuming it wants to use the AC/5s, which are more than 2/3rds of its long-range firepower), the same damage output as the AC/10 version, no ammo problems (either exploding or running out), and actually adequate armor.

Hell, throw in a pair of machine guns, and you have the CPLT-K2, which is where this tangent started...

Or replace the autocannons with a pair of LRM 20s, another ton of ammo (for four total, 12 shots per launcher), two or three more heat sinks, and four or five tons more armor, and you've got a mech that'll smack the original Jager silly at the long-range bombardment game.

Autocannons in general, and the smaller ones in particular, are pretty much a losing game. You can make practically any design better by ripping AC/2s or AC/5s off and replacing them with LRMs or PPCs... or just armor and/or heat sinks, which many 3025 designs (and all too many later designs) don't have enough of. In some extreme cases, even nothing at all is an improvement... the Marauder is a more dangerous mech if you send it into battle with the AC/5's ammo bin empty. Turning the autocannon into eight tons of dead weight is a small price to pay for not instantly exploding if anything at all penetrates the (insufficiently armored) left torso, where there isn't even anything but that ammo to soak up crits...

The LAC/2 and LAC/5 aren't great, but they're much better... they're what the small ACs should have been to begin with. It's actually possible to make a decent four-gun Rifleman with LAC/5s...

AC/10s are marginal. With heat sinks and ammo, AC/10 vs. PPC is pretty much a toss-up from the engineering side, and the PPC generally wins just because of the slightly longer range and the lack of ammo problems (both running out, and exploding if it gets hit). Because of the weirdness the 10 free heat sinks throw into the calculations, though, there are circumstances where the AC/10 is justifiable... you can't get away with a pure-PPC Annihilator, for example. You just can't cram enough heat sinks into the thing. (Though I think a 2+2 or 3+1 version would work, and would be an improvement. ... Actually, scratch that. I just crunched it out while waiting for the DB backup... you can do a 4-PPC Annihilator, with adequate heat dissipation. I'd forgotten how many heat sinks the thing had to begin with. You can even beef up its armor while you're at it. Or add another pair of MLs to discourage people from trying to close under PPC range... not that that's generally a bright idea against anything that's slinging around 10-point punches. Way too easy to get your cockpit bashed in. I think I'd go with the armor, though... it desperately needs it, especially as slow as it is.) And tanks, of course, are all about the AC/10, because, unlike PPCs, they don't have to worry about its heat, or power amps for the ICE ones.

As for the AC/20... from a pure efficiency standpoint, medium lasers are better. More damage output per ton, even after figuring in necessary heat sinks, at the same ranges, and no ammo problems. There's something to be said for punching big friggin' holes in things, though. The 4P (ML-boat) Swayback actually has more raw firepower than the original 4G Hunchback... but it's the 4G that's the terror weapon.


My favorite design has to stay classic. The AWS-8Q Awesome.
Oh, yeah. The Awesome easily lives up to its name.

Though... if you want to talk Golden BB stories, my best involves an Awesome and not an AC/2 but an LRM 5.

We were playing a regimental-scale engagement one summer (it took most of the summer), and I'd sent a company of choppers around into the enemy rear areas to take out some annoying artillery, when I stumbled across the enemy regimental command lance - a Cyclops and its bodyguards, including an Awesome.

First round after contact, the only unit in range on either side was one of my missile-boat choppers, which was 21 hexes out from the Awesome, and, after movement and terrain and so on, needed 12s to hit with its LRMs. But I had ammo to burn, so I lobbed off a volley. Missed with three of its four 5-racks, but the fourth came up boxcars. So I rolled for number of missiles, and got a 3 - one single solitary 1-point LRM. Location... snake eyes, CT with a chance of through-armor crit. Crit chance... boxcars again, three crits. Slots... engine, engine, engine. And 80 tons of first-rate assault mech toppled over dead, after taking one point of damage.

[Swordguy]

Yeah, that's what the fluff says. But have you ever seen what happens to a JagerMech when an aerospace fighter - practically any aerospace fighter - drops by? They haven't got the firepower to make anything more heavily armored than a Seydlitz take notice, and the Jager's armor stands up to the return fire like a soda can stands up to BBs. Being full of explosive ammo doesn't help, either.

What happens is that the JaegerMech sits in Hex 0909 on a map that it doesn't want the areospace fighter to get near. It flips arms and torso twists if necessary, meaning there isn't an angle that the ASF can take to not get shot at by the JaegerMech. If the ASF attacks that board that turn, the JM measures it's range as just double the ASF's altitude (plus the range to Hex 0909....but it's occupying that hex in the first place). Critically, the ASF must be at an altitude 4 or lower to strike or strafe ground targets.

Now, as soon as the JM hits the target, the ASF has to make an immediate Piloting Skill Roll (with a +2 penalty for being in atmosphere, and an extra +1 for every 20 points of damage it takes that phase) just for taking damage while in an atmosphere. Failure means a loss of 1d6 altitude levels. Since, realistically, the ASF is going to be at Altitude 4 or less, that means a 1 in 3 chance (or better) of crashing the ASF into the ground - from a single 2-point hit. The odds of this happening are actually orders of magnitude more likely than through-armor-criticals that take out an engine.

Now, why the ACs? They can mount Flak ammo (-3 to hit modifier vs ASFs!). Why the AC/2s? Because you're not always in Hex 0909...and the AC/2s will be in range from basically anywhere on the mapsheet as long as the ASF is low enough to make air-to-ground attacks. The AC/2s are ALWAYS in range. The ASF driver basically has to accept a significant chance of getting hit and possibly losing the fighter if he wants to attack a mapsheet that has a JaegerMech anywhere on it.

Compare that to your JaegerMonster; the 9-hex range of the AC/20 is paltry in comparison - just the ASF's altitude is likely to eat up 6 to 8 hexes of that range, which means you must be on or adjacent to Hex 0909. And since you can't move from there and still be effective on the anti-air attack, I'd be dropping all sorts of artillery on that position. You can't move away, after all...

[magellan]

The Jagermech is of course a fire support mech for low BV fights.
What people seem to forget that he also has 2 AC5s for a total of 14 damage points at range. Thats your average CN9 A with AC10 and LRM10s. But the jager gets to roll 4 times, and the CN only twice.
And if the (usually low on long range weapons) get close in to avoid the long range fire, they must be carefull because that beast kicks for 15 points of damage.
JM is really one of those Mechs that look awful, but are actually awesome. The AWS Q is the other way round ;)

[Darrin]

Our group had a joke about the Jagermech, to explain why Hanse Davion had a stroke before the 4th Succession War:

"Wait... I said, 'Build more Jagermechs?!?!?' NOOOO! *Achkkkthgh* *Grrk* *Klngk*"

In a single-heavy-mech multiplayer battle, I had the bad luck to get stuck with a Jagermech, but actually wound up doing pretty decently... mostly because the other players ignored me to focus on more dangerous threats. When the rest of the 'mechs had half their armor/weapons blown off, then yes, that's about the same power level as a Jagermech.

Loved the Catapult, though. Boggled my mind why the Capellans didn't build more of those... idiots shoehorn an Arrow IV on it instead. Makes me wonder if the Cappies wouldn't know a decent 'mech even if it alpha-striked right up their tailpipe.

[big teej]

I'm going to flex my ignorance here and ask about some of my favorite mechs. and how they tended to fair on the tabletop.

the Pillager
the Atlas
the Madcat
the Thor
the Daishi
the Bushwacker
the Hatchetman

and how hard they'd be to find if I can con my gaming group into battletech

[FelixG]

I'm going to flex my ignorance here and ask about some of my favorite mechs. and how they tended to fair on the tabletop.

the Pillager
the Atlas
the Madcat
the Thor
the Daishi
the Bushwacker
the Hatchetman

and how hard they'd be to find if I can con my gaming group into battletech

Never tried the Pillager
I have used an atlas to great effect in Urban combat
Madcat is sexy all around
Thor hasnt ever been used by me
Daishi is all around good
Havent tried the bushwacker but it rocked in MC 2 :P
and the Hatchetman is good if you can get it close

and you can find a good deal of minis here:
http://ironwindmetals.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=16&osCsid=4714bdd1859a0981d51601b4324cce02

Thats where my friend buys his, I use Legos because myself and the people I play with are poor kids :smallbiggrin:

[Grommen]

I just want to see my beloved warhammer take to the field again :smalleek:

He can. If you need a Warhammer. I have several...

IN F-N LEAD! :smallbiggrin:

The new Warhammer is not all that ugly, where the Marauder and Phoenix Hawk make me die a little every time I see them.

[Grommen]

Clan Based Large Pulse Laser is my choice for the best weapon in the game. Is their anything it can't solve? Add a Targeting Computer and life becomes O sooooo good.

I just managed to cram a 260 Light engine (From the Tech Manual and Total Warfare) into a Catapult, along with MASC, JJ's, 2 LRM 15 + Artemis, 2 Med pulse, 2 ER-Med Lasers, and that new C3i. Paired it up with a Raven that has extensive modifications, stealth armor, and a C3i. They seem to work well.

And with the new tech available to the IS I have managed to recreate a Clan Nova (Black Hawk) with IS tech. Sadly it shares the Nova's slight overheating issue. :smallwink:

My only problem now is that I've been playing with the same people so long they know what I'm going to do next, what my mechs are capable of, and on more than one occasion they have employed my own designs against me. I used to ambush the snot out of players with my C3 networked Inferior sphere. Now my buddy takes ECM capable mechs only so my C3 network is nothing but junk and extra weight. I've had to resort to Targeting Computers, I feel so dirty....:smalleek:

Speaking of. If anyone is in the neighborhood (Flint Michigan), we are playing a semi loose campaign of Battletech. Were limited to Inner Sphere equipment and what ever we can salvage. Sure could use a few clan players to show up. Don't worry "The Scrvy Dawgs" only shoot clan players in the legs. Their equipment is far to valuable to risk damaging. Daddie needs a Large Pulse Laser :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

the Pillager


The 3058 version? Pretty decent, but I'm puzzled why it the max heat is 25 but it has 14 DHS (dissipates 28). Maybe the LL was supposed to be ER? It doesn't last as long as most 100-tonners because as soon as you breach one of the side torsos, any crits hit either your XL engine or a gauss rifle, which almost always blows out the rest of the torso and shuts you down.



the Atlas


Catch it alone and out in the open with a little bit of terrain, and you can whittle it down with some long-range sniping or hope to get behind it and peck away at its back armor. If it's got any other 'mechs with it to provide long-range fire support... pray for snake-eyes/box-cars or run away.



the Madcat


Ugh. I'm not all that familiar with clan 'mechs, but my general experience with Madcats:
Turn 1 vs. Madcat: If you're lucky, you get a volley off at long range, maybe just enough to make the pilot annoyed.
Turn 2 vs. Madcat: Holy <bleep> he's already in your face and over half your armor is gone!
Turn 3 vs. Madcat: You can now fly an aerospace fighter through the smoking cavity that used to be your center torso, and the Madcat is already bounding off to his next target.



the Thor


Sort of looks like someone took a Warhammer, tried to screw it up, and almost succeeded. Best hope is to try and keep it at range and hope it runs out of ammo quickly (very hard to do when it moves 5/8/5). The Prime is nice, punch big holes with the ERPPC and then crithunt with the LB10X. Config-C: Run away. Run away NOW.



the Daishi


Some heat problems unless you're in Config-A, but otherwise 100 tons of "if I can see it, it's dead". The config with the targetting computer is a lot like shooting fish in a barrel... with a bazooka... firing tac-nuke shells.



the Bushwacker


Kind of a textbook example of what *not* to do with an XL engine... like load the mech up with low-damage ballistic weapons. Too ammo-dependent, and the speed increase doesn't really make up for it. 55 tons of crap waiting to explode, basically. I'll take a 3025 Griffin over this turkey any day.



the Hatchetman


A little too slow and not enough armor to make up for it. Lighter 'mechs are usually fast enough to make sure it never gets close, and anything its size or heavier can either outgun it up close or pick it apart at long range. Mechanically, a hatchet isn't as good as two punch attacks, and somewhat annoyingly the hatchetman is too lightweight to decapitate most 'mechs with one swing. Great flavor, but a little shy on the teeth to back it up.

[big teej]

Never tried the Pillager
I have used an atlas to great effect in Urban combat
Madcat is sexy all around
Thor hasnt ever been used by me
Daishi is all around good
Havent tried the bushwacker but it rocked in MC 2 :P
and the Hatchetman is good if you can get it close

and you can find a good deal of minis here:
http://ironwindmetals.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=16&osCsid=4714bdd1859a0981d51601b4324cce02

Thats where my friend buys his, I use Legos because myself and the people I play with are poor kids :smallbiggrin:

I actually really like the lego idea
pics for ideas? XD

@ darrin

that's extremely helpful :smallbiggrin:

however I'm assuming your response is based on if you're fighting AGAINST the mechs...

how would you employ them offensively?

and for the record for anyone reading, my experience with battletech/mechwarrior consists of
a) mechwarrior 3 for the PC
b) the novels
c) a single centurion clicket thingy

I also had a converted mining mech, but it's missing, and after dropping the centurion it needs its head glued back on. :smalltongue:

but I digress

and now that I"m thinking of that

what about centurions? outdated? yes I know. but it's what I've got.


EDIT: some other mech's I've read about that I am curious about
the commando
the puma
the black knight
any other assault class (prefferably 100 tons) mechs.

I like big
I like beefy
I like heavy

speed?
pah!
thats what lancemates are for!!!

:smalltongue:

[Kobold Esq]

So, anyone here ever play the CCG?

[Mando Knight]

how would you employ them offensively?

You do roughly the opposite of what Darrin said: try to keep in close with a Thor, and go for a Thor-C if possible. Daishi, being a Clan design, is a walking murder-machine, but needs some heat-juggling to stay functional. Mad Cat (Clan name: Timberwolf) is another Clan 'Mech, and will generally blast out its targets' armor in a few turns before shredding the inner structure with its LRMs. The Bushwacker is a cool-looking design, but its configurations are all ammo-dependent and it runs IS tech.

[magellan]

Our group had a joke about the Jagermech, to explain why Hanse Davion had a stroke before the 4th Succession War:

"Wait... I said, 'Build more Jagermechs?!?!?' NOOOO! *Achkkkthgh* *Grrk* *Klngk*"

In a single-heavy-mech multiplayer battle, I had the bad luck to get stuck with a Jagermech, but actually wound up doing pretty decently... mostly because the other players ignored me to focus on more dangerous threats. When the rest of the 'mechs had half their armor/weapons blown off, then yes, that's about the same power level as a Jagermech.

Loved the Catapult, though. Boggled my mind why the Capellans didn't build more of those... idiots shoehorn an Arrow IV on it instead. Makes me wonder if the Cappies wouldn't know a decent 'mech even if it alpha-striked right up their tailpipe.

Among heavies the JM is as misplaced as a CGR 1A1 among assaults.
Among mediums and lights though it is a beast. And gets ignored just as much. :) Thats one of it's secret weapons: looking harmless.

[big teej]

okay, so I've got enough interest in my group to ask this question.


what do you need to start?
are there any online resources?
how much does it cost to get a group going?
how long does a game take?

@sword guy
see above +
how time intensive is it to learn all the rules and integrate a game like that from the individual all the way up to mech or lance command level?

my gaming group needs more giant stompy robots!!!

back at everyone
any suggestions for utter noobs to tabletop battletech?


is springing a daishi on my unsuspecting buddies too cruel?
how expensive would a command/assault lance of a mad kat, a daishi, an atlas and a thor be?

if you wanted to know it when you started
I wanna know it now!!! :smallbiggrin:

[Swordguy]

okay, so I've got enough interest in my group to ask this question.


what do you need to start?
are there any online resources?
how much does it cost to get a group going?
how long does a game take?

@sword guy
see above +
how time intensive is it to learn all the rules and integrate a game like that from the individual all the way up to mech or lance command level?


(Sorry - in a hurry)

The answer to pretty much all of the above is "It varies".

You'll want to start here (free Quick-start rules):
http://www.classicbattletech.com/downloads/QSR_BattleTech_EN.pdf


...and here (an intro rulebook that talks about BattleMech tactics on the tabletop and how to "learn to play effectively"):
http://www.classicbattletech.com/downloads/CBT_Introductory_Rulebook.pdf


...and here (a free download about universe fluff - history, faction guides, technology primer, etc):
http://www.classicbattletech.com/downloads/CBTUniverse.pdf

You'll need to print out some hex grids, but no minis are required, and you can play with anything that has a clearly defined front facing (such as a bottlecap with an arrow on it).

Once you're comfy with that, I suggest you look up the Introductory Boxed Set, which is supposed to be a Q1 re-release this year. It includes the Intro rules, two nice mapsheets, "cheat sheets", dice, and 26 plastic minis.

Once you're comfy with THAT, I recommend going and buying a copy of Total Warfare - the full-on BattleTech ruleset. That's really all you ever need to buy; purchases beyond that are strictly optional, depending on how much you want to add to your game.

The "standard" BattleTech game is a 4v4 matchup (4 Mechs is called a "Lance", analogous to a platoon of tanks) on 2 mapsheets. It normally takes 1-2 hours, depending on your level of rules knowledge. The game can easily handle anything from a 1v1 game up to about a 12v12 game (which will take most people most of a day). My home game has seen 50v50 matchups over a 10-hour block (getting in about 2 turns per hours), but we know the game inside and out.

A note about technology: The game of BattleTech is NOT balanced in any way shape or form. As the timeline progresses, new technology is introduced that is flat-out better than old technology. New-tech designs will most often wipe the floor with older-tech stuff. Resist the urge to go straight for the "bestest tech" stuff and learn the game with older tech first. That will do two things: it will make the newer stuff seem more awesome when you DO get to use it, and it will make you a better player because you don't need the "crutch" of high-tech to win. It is trivially easy to min-max Mech designs - but everybody who has been playing BT for any length of time knows this already. Thusly, winning with a force of customized high-tech stuff (Clan LPLs and Targeting computers, etc) is going to be looked at less approvingly than the time you took about bunch of low-tech Mechs up against those same customized high-tech stuff and won through sheer tactical badassery.

[Hawriel]

CGL has some free down laod quick start rules.

http://battletech.catalystgamelabs.com/free-downloads/


Edit. my browser had a heart attack so I couldnt post this link in befor.

Some one wanted lago Battletech well here we go.

http://www.go.to/LegoMC

CGL battletech web sight has a ton of links to fan sights and supporting companies.

[The Glyphstone]

So Sword, I believe you had a story to tell about how you got an Urbanmech with a nuke upgraded to Canon Immigrant?:smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

what about centurions? outdated? yes I know. but it's what I've got.


Centurion is a pretty solid 'mech in 3025 (Level 1). It mixes well with heavy 'mechs, where it's slower speed isn't such a handicap. Against smaller/lighter 'mechs, it's a bit klunky and underpowered at short range, but they're durable and can take a lot of punishment. In 3025 you'll frequently see battered armless/torsoless Centurions wandering around the battlefield, tenaciously trying to finish off an opponent with the MLs in its CT or with kicks.

In 3050, the engine was upgraded to a 300 XL and now moves 6/9/0, so it can keep up with the light 'mechs but lost a lot of ruggedness. Good for hunting down light 'mechs, but doesn't last as long against medium/heavies.



the commando


Looks somewhat harmless at first glance, but packs one heck of wallop up close. Most players tend to think of SRMs as crit-hunter weapons, but when stacked together, they can strip off quite a bit of armor in 2-point chunks. Goes *kaboom* if you can take out either the RT or LT (SRM ammo). The 3050 upgrade isn't... exactly an improvement (almost the entire 3050 TR is a bunch of stupid examples of how *not* to upgrade your 'mechs with new tech). Endosteel + ferrrofibrous = good idea, thinner armor + fewer missiles = not so good idea. Best strategy is to use cover to run up close, and then charge into close range. For a 25-ton 'mech that's essentially an SRM ammo explosion waiting to happen: life is short, make your death glorious.



the puma


*wince* I hate these things. It's a friggin' head shot with legs. If you're lucky, the player might make a mistake, leave it out in the open, and you may take an arm off with a gauss rifle hit or a pair of PPCs... otherwise it will carve you up 22 hexes away in 30-point chunks.



the black knight


Nice 'mech, has a lot of heat management issues, particularly at long range, but no ammo to worry about. For level 1, get it up close and it can tear apart almost anything up to a Marauder. Otherwise, try and get ahold of the 3062 upgrade with the DHS and targeting computer. It still has heat issues, but if you're not afraid of riding it up the heat scale, *whoa* it can dish out quite a bit of whoopass.

[Swordguy]

So Sword, I believe you had a story to tell about how you got an Urbanmech with a nuke upgraded to Canon Immigrant?:smallbiggrin:

Ah, yes.

We've got a guy in our playgroup (www.cincybattletech.com) who is widely known to be in it for the proverbial "lulz". That is, if there is a choice between a course of action that is "effective" and a course of action that is "funny"...well...he'll choose the latter almost every time.

So, naturally, his ride of choice is the UrbanMech. In a 2-year mercenary campaign, his UrbanMech went from the regular, 2/3/2 AC/10 smLA version to a 6/9/9 monstrosity with an ER PPC (and a small laser, natch). In fact, piloting UrbanMechs is his specialty; he's dropped assault Mechs in Canon Event play at GenCon and Origins with the things before.

So, something I've been doing for him for some time has been creating minis of his various UrbanMechs. Like so:


http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/UrbanMech1.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/Display%20Minis/DSCN0913.jpg


So the question was brought up: why doesn't the Word of Blake have any really useful UrbanMech variants? They have one of everything else, seemingly, so why not this one. That led into a discussion about what the UrbanMech was actually good for, and the idea of an Arrow IV-packing UrbanMech came about (so it could pack nukes).

So, I modeled one up - mainly for kicks, and brought it to GenCon to show off. I knew that nukes were going to fly at GenCon, because a few years ago I ran part of the Battle for Odessa for my own home group, and created a nuclear weapon template for that game. A few days after hearing about it, Herb Beas contacted me privately and asked about my building a full-scale nuke template, but canceled the idea after I ran the math and told him that we'd need a truck to get it to GenCon; it'd be around 12.7 FEET in radius (approx 25 feet in diameter). I was therefore asked to build a much smaller one instead.

In a bit of divine coincidence, this year's canon storyline event at GenCon was the Battle for Terra (Egyptian Theatre of Operations), where the rest of the Inner Sphere gets together to kick the WoB's collective ass. One table, therefore, was detailing the efforts of the Kell Hounds mercenary unit against the Word of Blake.

Now, canonically and totally unrelated to my making the mini, the Kell Hounds got nuked during the battle. I was mainly scheduled to demo Leviathans (http://monstersinthesky.com/), but I had the good fortune to be scheduled to help run the Canon Event Table on Day 1. When the demo coordinator realized that I had brought a mini of an UrbanMech firing off a nuclear missile, it was immediately pressed into service - starting the day on the Camospecs (http://www.camospecs.com/) display table (next to the Canon Event game tables), and then being revealed in dramatic fashion at the end of my shift when the nuke it had fired landed.

So, I ended up building the Mech that launched the nuke, the nuke template itself, physically made the rolls to launch the nuke and check where it it, and ran the game where I decided when and where the nuke would launch. All in canon play. The only thing I didn't do was make the decision to nuke 'em i the first place. I killed the Kell Hounds! Mua-ha-ha-ha!

So, that's part 1. The second part is what happened the next day.

See, CGL runs a Masters & Minions game, where fans get to sit down and play a game of CBT against the guys who run CGL - Loren, Herb, Randall, etc. The main rules for this event is that you can pick ANY canon Mech configuration for your choice of Mech. It's 1 board of play per Master, and the Master gets 4 Mechs, while each fan gets 1 (for a 4v4 fight).

Now, Herb Beas is informally known as "Lord Of Nukes", because he nominally controls which factions or units live and die (mostly die). When he saw the UrbanMech, he wanted it for his Mech selections, and wanted it BAD. Problem was, it wasn't a canon Mech configuration. Up until the point where we appraised him of that. Being the BattleTech Line Developer and Guy Who Controls What Gets Canonized, we drew up a record sheet for it real fast, and the Nuclear UrbanMech was canonized on the spot (being first published in the PDF TRO:3085 Unabridged).

The Urbie went on to totally wipe out Herb's opposition...and three other mapsheets where other Masters were playing once time started to run out on the event. :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm going to flex my ignorance here and ask about some of my favorite mechs. and how they tended to fair on the tabletop.

the Pillager Never played with one before, but heard good things

the AtlasSolid support mech. DO NOT get within around 6 hexes unless you wish to be viewing the smoking ruins of your mech from your ejection seat view

the Madcat No fair bringing Clan tech into an IS fight. Seriously, it doesn't matter where you are, you're in for two worlds of pain.

the Thor Unless you are in a Clan heavy or assault mech, or have a number of Clan medium mechs, your best bet is to block LoS, and pray to whatever dieties you worship that it finds something more worth it's time while you utilize the waste product filters and run for dear life.

the Daishi You remember what I said about the thor and 'unless you are in a clan heavy or assault mech'? This is a Clan Assault mech. Resistance is pretty much futile, you will be eliminated.

the Bushwacker Good idea, poor execution

Hatchetman Armor is too thin for it to reliabally close with anything. Needs more armor and mobility to be a viable threat. Although, anything it does hit with it's hatchet is gonna know it's been hit. Odds of that happening... too insignificant to meaningfully calculate.

[FelixG]

@ Swordguy:

I am guessing the urbie carried Davey Crockett nukes?

Those are the only ones I could see fitting onto a Battlemech, In The Ideal War they carried them on jeeps too, but I could never find stats for them, are they in the TRO with the urbie? :smallbiggrin:

[Swordguy]

@ Swordguy:

I am guessing the urbie carried Davey Crockett nukes?

Those are the only ones I could see fitting onto a Battlemech, In The Ideal War they carried them on jeeps too, but I could never find stats for them, are they in the TRO with the urbie? :smallbiggrin:

That's correct: Davy Crockett-Ms. Although with a "special" WoB payload that increased the yield to 500 points at Ground Zero, up from 100.

And rules for nuclear warheads are found in Jihad Hot Spots: 3070 (also available in the book Blake Ascending, which is a compliation of the sourcebooks Dawn of the Jihad and JHS:3070, both of which are out of print as individual books).

[big teej]

Centurion is a pretty solid 'mech in 3025 (Level 1). It mixes well with heavy 'mechs, where it's slower speed isn't such a handicap. Against smaller/lighter 'mechs, it's a bit klunky and underpowered at short range, but they're durable and can take a lot of punishment. In 3025 you'll frequently see battered armless/torsoless Centurions wandering around the battlefield, tenaciously trying to finish off an opponent with the MLs in its CT or with kicks.

In 3050, the engine was upgraded to a 300 XL and now moves 6/9/0, so it can keep up with the light 'mechs but lost a lot of ruggedness. Good for hunting down light 'mechs, but doesn't last as long against medium/heavies.
.


how can I tell which version I have? or is that entirely on the paper side of things? not the minis
also: YAY A DURABLE FIRST MECH :smallbiggrin:
I like durable...:smallredface:





*wince* I hate these things. It's a friggin' head shot with legs. If you're lucky, the player might make a mistake, leave it out in the open, and you may take an arm off with a gauss rifle hit or a pair of PPCs... otherwise it will carve you up 22 hexes away in 30-point chunks.


.
I assume you mean you hate fighting against them? :smallconfused:

(if I'm reading this right) they sound pretty flipping durable.... just like they were in Mechwarrior 3 (poured PPC and autocannon fire into one from my thor IT WOULD NOT DIE)



@ sword guy
taht was super helpful and I'll probably ask a buncha new questions tomorrow when I have time to read it.

most of the novels I have have to deal with either A) the clan invasions B) the clans themselves or C) the succession war between Victor and Katrina

so between those novels and Mechwarrior 3, I'm hooked on some of these mechs




oh, as a final note (to all)
I was looking through the Iron wind and I came across to pictures that made me drool

the Akuma
and the Atlas II

are they as good as they look?

[9mm]

It makes me sad that so many hate the Bushwacker :smallfrown: I love the thing, LRM support on an Enforcer? Sign me up! Now I'll admit I almost always rip out the machine guns for something more useful, but the amount of fire support a bushy can bring is really something.

[big teej]

unrelated tangent


is it me? or is the Ahnillator REALLY fragile for an assault mech?

whenever I pilot one in mechwarrior 3, it gets shot out from under me in no time, but my Thor and/or Daishi (or Orion) last almost forever

[Kikaz]

I assume you mean you hate fighting against them? :smallconfused:


That is almost certainly what he means, Puma/Adder have pretty much the biggest light mech ballz ever.


It makes me sad that so many hate the Bushwacker :smallfrown: I love the thing, LRM support on an Enforcer? Sign me up! Now I'll admit I almost always rip out the machine guns for something more useful, but the amount of fire support a bushy can bring is really something.
From my experiences in MW4M, I love the Bushwacker.

[RandomLunatic]

unrelated tangent


is it me? or is the Ahnillator REALLY fragile for an assault mech?

whenever I pilot one in mechwarrior 3, it gets shot out from under me in no time, but my Thor and/or Daishi (or Orion) last almost forever

Oh, it is fragile alright. It has about the same armor coverage as an Orion, but without anything approaching the speed. With the Annie, it is kill or be killed.

[king.com]

Oh, it is fragile alright. It has about the same armor coverage as an Orion, but without anything approaching the speed. With the Annie, it is kill or be killed.

Though to be fair it does a pretty decent job in the kill department.

[Gnoman]

The AS7-D version of the atlas is actually pretty dissapointing in 1 on 1 combat. There are light mechs that can easily take one out (a perfect example being the PNT-9) unless it get REALLY lucky with the LRM-20. It's just too slow to bring it's main battery into play, and is way too crit-vulnerable because of the ammo.

Now, in a well-built lance (for example, 1 Atlas, 1 Awesome, 1 Archer, and 1 of something else,) it's incredible.

[Darrin]

Oh, it is fragile alright. It has about the same armor coverage as an Orion, but without anything approaching the speed. With the Annie, it is kill or be killed.

The Annihilator was originally a design unique to the Wolf Dragoons in the 3025-era... first appeared in either the Wolf Dragoon sourcebook or Tales of the Black Widow? Can't recall exactly. With Level 1 tech, getting hit by four AC/10s from a single 'mech was almost unheared of, and the thin armor wasn't quite so notable... a 100-tonner can survive quite a few rounds on just it's internal structure in Level 1. The 3050 upgrade is a 100-ton klunker.

I worked out a custom 100-tonner that fits PPC x2 + LB10X x3 with 13 DHS, endosteel, and about... I think 15 tons of armor. Not quite Gausszilla, but it can tear through an Annihilator pretty quick.

[FelixG]

I have to say one of my favorite Assault Mechs has to be the Jupiter.

I dont remember if it is a custom varient i made but i have one on my list with 2 HAG 30s, 2 AC 10s and 2 er medium lasers.

my friends HATE this mech with a passion

[Swordguy]

The Annihilator was originally a design unique to the Wolf Dragoons in the 3025-era... first appeared in either the Wolf Dragoon sourcebook or Tales of the Black Widow? Can't recall exactly. With Level 1 tech, getting hit by four AC/10s from a single 'mech was almost unheared of, and the thin armor wasn't quite so notable... a 100-tonner can survive quite a few rounds on just it's internal structure in Level 1. The 3050 upgrade is a 100-ton klunker.

Having played CBT for so long and having gotten bored with force and Mech optimization (it's too easy...), one of my favorite things to do is put together Mech forces that have no business being good at all, and then figuring out ways to win with them. A Level 1 lance of a Scorpion, JaegerMech, Shadow Hawk, and Vulcan, for example.

The Annie is a perfect test case. I recall building a force to defend a city from a trio of Clan elite heavy Mechs (Mad Dog, and two Timber Wolfs). The force was something like an Awesome, a 3050 Annihilator, a Griffin, and a 3050 Axeman. I parked the Awesome on top of a parking garage, kept the Griffin jumping from rooftop to rooftop, and once they had entered the city, jumped the Axeman into and out of the middle of their formation and started Axing and AC/20-ing away. The Annihilator? I parked it in a tree stand, in a park next to the parking garage, and used Hidden Unit rules. Well, as it happened, eventually the Clans blew away the Axman and Grffin, but boy they had gotten beat up. Constant, unrelenting fire from the Awesome and Griffin's PPCs and the AC/20 and hatchet of the Axman had sure opened a lot of holes. So, they came for the Awesome, which I walked down the ramp of the parking garage and said "come get me". So they did, crossing straight into the park.

And that was when I let fly with the hidden Annihilator and it's quad LB-10Xs, scoring something like a dozen critical hits on a Timber Wolf in one go, taking it totally out of the fight. The other two Mechs went after the Annie, but even a pair of Clan Mechs, luck notwithstanding, have a hard time getting through 200 points of armor in a single turn. The Awesome came around the parking garage, and the pair of Clanners were wiped out the next turn.

The Annie has uses. It's a close-range defense turret that can move itself from place to place. In the normal, "open-field" setting of BattleTech tabletop games, it's pretty bad. But do you have a place you need to defend where the OPFOR can't see or shoot you until they're right on top of you (defending, say, a group of LRM carriers behind a hill)? And Annie isn't nearly so bad then. It's just a matter of find the right use for it.

[big teej]

okay, I've decided I need an army of stompy robots...

and I've composed a list of things I think I want.

so this is (I really really hope) my last bout of "how good are these" post

I'm curious as to anyone's experience with the following mechs, facing, using, whatever.

and if possible, tell me what their weight class is, the website doesn't list that =(

list 1 (these are mechs that have already been responded too, I just figured yall might wanna know what's already on the 'to buy' list)

Atlas II
Daishi
Cauldron born
Commando
Madcat II
Madcat
Puma
Thor
Awesome

technicallyl I never asked about the cauldron born, but I feel that its a pretty stand out mech

anyways, the following is a list of mechs that I found on the Ironwinds metal website
and I'm curious


Akuma
Bear cub
Bombardier
Charger
Colossus
Cyngus D.A.
Grizzley
Hellhound
Kraken
Longbow
Maurader IIC
Mauler
Patriot
Scylla
Shootist
Templar
Thunderbolt
Toro
Bloodkite



thanks in advance, I hope these posts arn't bugging anybody :smallredface:

[Kikaz]

And I'm quite curious about how good the Zeus is. I've wanted one since seeing the Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries intro.

[9mm]

And I'm quite curious about how good the Zeus is. I've wanted one since seeing the Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries intro.

It's House Stiener's Scout mech, clocking at in at 80 tons.

In all seriousness its an overweight heavy mech, damn good at providing some solid firepower, but not exactly a face melter. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zeus for more info.

[FelixG]

It's House Stiener's Scout mech, clocking at in at 80 tons.

In all seriousness its an overweight heavy mech, damn good at providing some solid firepower, but not exactly a face melter. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zeus for more info.

You got the Scout lance wrong, all wrong.

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/2856/steiner1.jpg

Also Orbital insertions with the Lyrans are a lot more fun!
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5742/steiner4.jpg

[MeeposFire]

I like thugs but I like removing my SRMs as I like energy weapons.

[The Glyphstone]

Okay, we need more Battletech motivators, stat.

[VA_beds]

There was no cartoon. No, don't even bring it up, we don't want to talk about it, it didn't exist.

lol...o how i agree with this
(yes i just found this thread)

anyway just randomly firing off a comment bout my fave mechs (base Inner sphere) are the Awesome and the Hunchback (the p variation..with the 9 med laser instead of the ac20)

[FelixG]

Okay, we need more Battletech motivators, stat.

Not a motivator but it made me lol
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2799/4541895512_e28011db82.jpg

[Darrin]

Cauldron born


Eh... basically, a Thor with better artwork.



Akuma


Very decent assault 'mech. A little weak at long range, but really brutal crit-hunter up close.



Bear cub


Kinda underwhelming for a clan design, even for a 2nd line 'mech. Should be just fine against inner sphere lights, but I wouldn't go near any front-line light omni's with this thing.



Bombardier


An Archer-wannabe. Don't settle for substitutes, always go with the original LRM-boat.




Charger


The 3025 version was widely considered some kind of joke... an assault mech that could be outgunned by a Locust. The 3050 version was usually avoided as well, but once you got it into some terrain it could be a surprisingly nimble backstabber... there aren't a lot of assault 'mechs that can jump 5 hexes, and the -2 bonus from the 4xMPLs offsets the +3 penalty for jumping.



Colossus


Um... yeah, the Solaris 7 'mechs had some... issues with, well, basic math, mostly. I'm not sure if a level 2 version of the Colossus has been published. The S7 version was Level 3, and the update with the new artwork also appears to be level 3. The original artwork is sorta an anime-style Marauder on steroids... possibly borrowed from the Japanese version of Battletech? The updated artwork and design is a completely different 'mech... but looks like it's still using some wacky Level 3 tech.



Cyngus D.A.


Not familiar with this one... is this the 2nd line 95-ton Clan 'mech? 28 tons of direct-fire weapons + targeting computer... yep, looks like a murder-machine.



Grizzley


A bit slow and underpowered for a 70-ton Clan 'mech, but max armor, almost no heat worries, and no XL engine... very rugged, good long-range fire support, and not too shabby up close, but could use a few more torso-mounted weapons... take off it's arms and the LRM-10 isn't much of a threat.



Hellhound


Sort of a Clan version of a Phoenix Hawk... very nice 'mech. Jump around and snipe or pop in close for an alpha strike. Try and put in a stravag pilot so he can punch twice when he jumps in.



Kraken


Probably the only 100-ton Clan 'mech most Inner Sphere players don't mind going up against... up until it opens fire, and an hour later, you're still waiting for the raxxafrickin-bastidge to finish rolling.



Longbow


Really obscure 'mech that took a long time to get into a Technical Readout (originally the Spartan from Macross). Great for raining down torrents of LRMs, but if you can get up close to it, about as tough as a cardboard box. The 3058 version is slower, but has better armor and can keep pouring out buckets of LRMs without worrying too much about heat.



Maurader IIC


3x Clan ERPPCs... and almost enough heat sinks to fire them every turn. Nasty, evil 'mech.



Mauler


90 tons of pure crapola. AC/2s... oh yeah, that'll strike fear into those rotten Clanners! Also... you just don't put ERLLs on assault 'mechs, particularly 90-ton crapfests with only 11 DHS. And we've got the tech to put in an XL engine, DHS, ER lasers, but no Artemis IVs on the LRM15s? And if that isn't bad enough, no short range weapons, so if something gets in close, you're fighting the heat scale just to fire both ERLLs. Never, ever, ever field this 'mech. The ridicule and mockery heaped upon you will be legendary.



Patriot


This is a gimmick 'mech, but not a bad choice if you want to play around with some Arrow IV homing missiles. Did the designers get around to changing the rules so you can TAG your own homing missiles? (In the Battletech Compendium, you couldn't fire any other weapons when using TAG... not even your own Arrow IVs.)



Scylla


Not quite up to the firepower you expect to see on a 100-tonner Clan 'mech, but not bad for a 100-tonner that moves 4/6/4. Weapons layout isn't really designed for jumping, though... those LRM20s need to be ditched for some pulse lasers.



Shootist


Somewhat similar to an Axeman (without the axe)... but that ERLL really needs to be swapped for a PPC, maybe by switching the MPLs for MLs. Nice design, though.



Templar


Pretty nasty... not a lot of options if you're Inner Sphere and want to use a targeting computer. It can't really hold a candle to any of the Clan assaults, but should be able to take down everything else.



Thunderbolt


Classic design, always a pretty solid choice in either 3025 or 3050. Dropping the MGs to upgrade the LL to a PPC was quite popular with our group.




Toro


Nice little fire support 'mech... but those Taurians really need to get that whole DHS-thing figured out.



Bloodkite


Missile boat and... Ok, do we *really* need three ERLLs on this thing? Pretty scary for an 85-tonner... looks like it can hold its own against any of the Clan assaults.

[Mando Knight]

Missile boat and... Ok, do we *really* need three ERLLs on this thing? Pretty scary for an 85-tonner... looks like it can hold its own against any of the Clan assaults.

Probably because it is a Clan Assault, if we're looking at the same missile boat with triple ERLLs...

[FelixG]

i love the blood kite. lots of long reaching slap as well as a bit more longevity with those ERLLs, particularly important in campaign operations!

That is mostly why when I play a campaign i refit my mechs with energy weapons ASAP, to cut down operating costs :smallamused:

[magellan]

Having played CBT for so long and having gotten bored with force and Mech optimization (it's too easy...), one of my favorite things to do is put together Mech forces that have no business being good at all, and then figuring out ways to win with them. A Level 1 lance of a Scorpion, JaegerMech, Shadow Hawk, and Vulcan, for example.


Funny:
When I look at this lance I see 2 Fire support units and 2 brawlers. And all 4 decent to good at their tasks too :)

Give me a CN9, a WTH H, a FS H and a PXH and I am fairly certain we would have an interesting fight!

[big teej]

@ darrin

that was super helpful, and helped thin out the list a bit.


but what, may I ask, would you pick up first if you had the chance?

either for A) an assault lance, or B) a 'balanced' lance consisting of a light, medium, heavy, and assault?



and is it considered bad form to use the Clan force orginization as opposed to the inner sphere? (stars as opposed to lances?)


EDIT: what does DHS stand for? =P

[Swordguy]

but what, may I ask, would you pick up first if you had the chance?

either for A) an assault lance, or B) a 'balanced' lance consisting of a light, medium, heavy, and assault?

What time period are you talking about? The answer will vary wildly due to the presence or absence of certain timeline-specific technologies. Secondarily, what faction are you talking about? A Draconis Combine Lance will be very different from a Free Worlds League lance.

Secondarily, the best "non-munchkin-y" lances are generally built around a purpose or specific theme, because having a lance containing one of each weight class is actually pretty hard to handle. Due to differing movement rates, each Mech will usually end up fighting alone, and be destroyed in detail. Usually what happens is you have a company of Mechs (3 lances), and each lance has a different purpose (usually 1 Recon lance, 1 Cavalry lance, and 1 Heavy lance).

So a good sample company of "mercenary" Mechs operating on the Davion/Kurita border in 3039 might look like so:

Recon Lance
Locust -1S
Locust -1E
Jenner JR-7F
Ostscout -7J

Cavalry Lance
Phoenix Hawk -1
Phoenix Hawk -1D
Griffin -1N
Grasshopper -5H

Heavy Lance
Thunderbolt -5S
Archer -2R
Warhammer -6K
Victor -9A1





and is it considered bad form to use the Clan force orginization as opposed to the inner sphere? (stars as opposed to lances?)

Not if you're playing Clan, or if you're playing one of the units that are specifically organized that way to act as Opposing Force training units for other commands (such as ComStar's 472nd Division "Invader Galaxy", or the mercenary unit Wolf's Dragoons post-3051).




EDIT: what does DHS stand for? =P

Double Heat Sink.

[big teej]

in response to timeline and faction

to be honest, I haven't the slightest clue

whatever allows me to (somewhat logically) field as many of the following as possible.



Atlas II
Daishi
Cauldron born
Commando
Madcat II
Madcat
Puma
Thor
Awesome
Akuma
Hellhound
Kraken
Longbow
Maurader IIC
Toro
Bloodkite



emphasis on the heavy/assault mechs.

furthermore, as far as faction, from the novels I've developed a bit of an affection for the Davion house...
but after that steiner house motivator.... I may rethink that....

but I love the clans the most if we allow all factions (specifically ghost bear)

sooo.......
I have no idea if this answer is helpful at all, if its not I'll tweak it =P

[MeeposFire]

in response to timeline and faction

to be honest, I haven't the slightest clue

whatever allows me to (somewhat logically) field as many of the following as possible.



Atlas II
Daishi
Cauldron born
Commando
Madcat II
Madcat
Puma
Thor
Awesome
Akuma
Hellhound
Kraken
Longbow
Maurader IIC
Toro
Bloodkite



emphasis on the heavy/assault mechs.

furthermore, as far as faction, from the novels I've developed a bit of an affection for the Davion house...
but after that steiner house motivator.... I may rethink that....

but I love the clans the most if we allow all factions (specifically ghost bear)

sooo.......
I have no idea if this answer is helpful at all, if its not I'll tweak it =P

Do stuff in the time period when Hanse Davion was in charge of the Federated Commonwealth and you can be both Steiner and Davion.

I was partial always partial to these mechs

Light-wolfhound

Medium-clint with a PPC (not a great mech but I loved its look in the technical readout so I wanted it anyway).

heavy-flashman-always wanted one with jump jets and a PPC oh well maybe with clan tech...

Assault-thug-I dislike missile so I always try to swap them out for a few lasers and I still want jump jets.

How do those mechs rate?

[magellan]

Wolfhound is one of the best lights (Unless it's in terrain that needs Jumpjets)
Flashman is a really mean bugger!
People seem to like Thugs. I always thought I rather have a Warhammer. 2 ML, SRM6 and MGs for close combat vs 2 SRM 4s. Only weakness of the WHM armorwise are the legs, and a good player can protect those. The Thug on the other hand suffers from the Longrange energy, short range ammo problem: You can't empty the bins while away from the enemy and then go in. (Like with an Archer or Catapult.)
And I never knew there was a Clint with a PPC :) (Only one with an AC10 and that one is a bit of a glass cannon)

[MeeposFire]

That clint is listed as an alternate as parts for the AC 10 are very scarce so people modd it with a PPC since that is more reliable. Makes it last longer in a fight too. It still is a bit of a glass cannon though so are a lot of medium mechs from that time.

[Hawriel]

I'm supprised alot of peaple dont use custome mechs more often. Is it that most players use the published senarios more often? Most games I have played have been skirmishes.

Battletech was the first wargame I have played. I really like the world that FASA built and how they written the stores. I also got into the tinkering that the game allowed. I never considered myself a powergamer or "optimiser". I try to make mechs better at what their origional role would be. Or creat my own desine for what I needed it to do. My redesine of a stock level 1 Griffin would fit right into what an in world varient would be like. Or a level 2 or 3 tech varient.

For example, I made my own update on the Centurian. A solid level 1 mech. I found out that the only difference between my mech and the level 2 update is that I didnt up the speed with an XL engine. I used endo and FFA to do the same weapons upgrades. Sure it still moves 4/6 but it's still a good mech for a fire lance, or the commander of a heavyer than normal recon lance.

Some peaple don't like stock mechs because they have weapons systems that dont make sence. I look at them from an in world point of view. Having mechine guns on a Pheonix hawk make sence, or a the slow speed of an urban mech. Mechs dont just kill other mechs. Inventry can be a threat to a Phonix hawk in a city or heavy forest if it did not have mechineguns. The Urbanmechs speed is not a liability in the tight confines of a city. Roads have stable (mostly) clear pathways to move. The jumpjets let it hop over buildings with out needing to out run a faster mech.

Is there an ettiquet to the game that I missed? Is there room for custom desines out side of an RPG type setting? Or do custome mechs have a stigma of munchkin to them?

[Mando Knight]

I think custom refits are generally frowned on if they're not OmniMechs (aren't there rules for refitting an OmniMech with a non-standard payload?). Also you should probably come to an agreement before adding Clan Tech to any fight, especially if you're sticking it in an IS 'Mech...

[MeeposFire]

I am not speaking from experience but I think it has to do with the fact it is too easy. If you just play your custom mechs it becomes too easy against normal mechs you should be fighting and doing that in the game world is just not feasible at a great level.

Heck looking at the manuals it often talks about how this one weapon system would not work since the computer could not handle it despite no game rule preventing that weapon from working.

Playing stock mechs has a "real" feel to it. I think minor changes are probably not frown upon (such as replacing an AC with a PPC) or pulse lasers from originals but taking an IS mech and just throwing an EL engine in it that normally does not have one would probably make some people unhappy if they like following the in game story.

[Swordguy]

Is there an ettiquet to the game that I missed? Is there room for custom desines out side of an RPG type setting? Or do custome mechs have a stigma of munchkin to them?

Under certain circumstances, they do.

Once of the side-effects about the system being so easy to optimize is that The Powers That Be deliberately tend to create Mechs that are severely suboptimal. If they didn't, pretty much every Mech of a given size would look identical, as there is a definite "best" speed/armor/payload configuration for each weight of Mech.

Because the canon Mech designs are generally sub-optimal, custom Mechs very often have really large advantages over stock Mechs, making the game unfair. Under the most common "blind" scenario - that is, each person picks some Mechs arranged to some sort of balancing factor like Battle Value or tonnage - the person who takes custom Mechs is far more likely to win. Therefore, custom Mechs are discouraged in pick-up play. However, very often in campaign play, or under circumstances where all players agree ahead of time to use customs, there's no issue.

For example: Gausszilla (designed by FASA's Bryan Nystul and told never, EVER to be made "canon")


Annihilator Bryan "Gausszilla"

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-C-D
Production Year: 0
Cost: 9,496,667 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,482

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 200 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 21.6 km/h
Maximum Speed: 32.400000000000006 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
5 Gauss Rifles
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================== ==============================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 152 points 5.00
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 2 LT, 2 LA, 2 RA
Engine: Fusion Engine 200 8.50
Walking MP: 2
Running MP: 3
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LL, 1 RL
Gyro: Standard GyroStandard 2.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 248 15.50
CASE Locations: LT, RT, LA, RA 0.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 31 37
Center Torso (rear) 10
L/R Torso 21 33
L/R Torso (rear) 9
L/R Arm 17 24
L/R Leg 21 30

================================================== ==============================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Gauss Rifles RT 2 12 24.00
Gauss Rifle LT 1 6 12.00
Gauss Rifle RA 1 6 12.00
Gauss Rifle LA 1 6 12.00
@Gauss Rifle (32) LT - 4 4.00
@Gauss Rifle (8) RA - 1 1.00
@Gauss Rifle (8) LA - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 4

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 8 Points: 25
2 7 8 8 0 4 0 Structure: 8
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA


Running into two of these (about 5000 BV) at a blind pick-up game where you brought a balanced, stock Mech force of 5000 BV (1 Light, 2 Medium, and 1 Heavy will get you about 5k BV) isn't even a contest. It's stuff like this that gives "custom Mechs" a bad name.

Moral of the story: Before you play, ALWAYS make sure that you know whether custom Mechs are allowed in the game.

[big teej]

okay, I've got mech selection down, now I'm curious about some feasible tactics.....

*I am VERY well aware that no plan survives contact with the enemy, but humor me.

tactic 1

stick some LRM boats (carriers, catapults, longbows, etc, whatever)
in the back, and then rush the enemy with Pumas and rain LRM havoc on them from afar, whilst the mechs keep them occupied long enough for the LRMS to reduce them to scrap.
perhaps add in a second line of medium (or an assault) mech in case something slips past the pumas (madcat?)

tactic 2

send something REALLY small (puma again!) around one table edge, and send a madcat up the middle (see earlier post about how fighting madcats goes) while sending two heavies down the other table edge.

idea being, opposing forces are so focused on the madcat blowing their stuff up, and the heavies controlling a table edge, that they ignore the puma long enough for it to get around and punch PPC shots into their rear armor


tactic 3

hammer blow
or
'House Steiner STP'



-ducks cover-
yes I'm sure these are dumb... but I'm excited to play. so my brain is constantly churning out stuff:smallredface:

I reserve the right to claim sleep deprivation for this post as I was in the process of crawlinginto bed

[FelixG]

those tactics could have some merit, but remember: No plan survives first contact with the enemy. The enemy could see your concentration of lights pressing around the edge and send mediums to squash them and then flank you instead, or seeing the weak center field they could rush in and annihilate the center then press on the lights to cut them out of the action before your heavies and wheel around and provide cover.

The LRM thing can be fun, hopefully you have a NARC or TAG mech in the mix as well to really add to that pounding, but you would want some medium range mid fielders to swarm any mechs that break through the line to try to dissuade your missile boats.

[Mando Knight]

The LRM thing can be fun, hopefully you have a NARC or TAG mech in the mix as well to really add to that pounding, but you would want some medium range mid fielders to swarm any mechs that break through the line to try to dissuade your missile boats.

And also hopefully your Pumas don't get smashed up by PPCs and Gauss rifles while trying to distract the enemy. Remember, a 'Mech that light, outfitted with dual PPCs? Isn't a brawler. It's made for fire support and/or skirmishing. A single lucky shot could wipe out half your armament much more easily than on a medium 'Mech. (Though anyone used to IS tech would be caught off-guard for a bit if he didn't realize the Puma was a Clan design...)

[FelixG]

Also heres a question, anyone can feel free to answer, but its directed mostly to Swordguy

In a number of illustrations and in the novels it often describes and shows Aerodyne dropships making VTOL landings and takeoffs, do the rules for Aerospace support or deny this? (I am away from my books ATM but the thought just occurred to me while reading one of my novels)

[Swordguy]

Also heres a question, anyone can feel free to answer, but its directed mostly to Swordguy

In a number of illustrations and in the novels it often describes and shows Aerodyne dropships making VTOL landings and takeoffs, do the rules for Aerospace support or deny this? (I am away from my books ATM but the thought just occurred to me while reading one of my novels)

Areodyne DropShips can indeed take off vertically. The relevant rules are found on page 88 of Total Warfare. However, assuming they have to option to use a runway (minimum of 20 clear or paved hexes in a straight line) it is usually in their best interest not to do so.

See, any DropShip taking off vertically has to make a Piloting Skill roll with some modifiers. The higher the margin of failure on the roll, the more it's going to suck for the DropShip. Taking off like a regular aircraft requires no roll, so it's significantly safer...and when you're talking about a half-billion C-Bill DropShip, you don't want to take unnecessary chances.

[FelixG]

Areodyne DropShips can indeed take off vertically. The relevant rules are found on page 88 of Total Warfare. However, assuming they have to option to use a runway (minimum of 20 clear or paved hexes in a straight line) it is usually in their best interest not to do so.

See, any DropShip taking off vertically has to make a Piloting Skill roll with some modifiers. The higher the margin of failure on the roll, the more it's going to suck for the DropShip. Taking off like a regular aircraft requires no roll, so it's significantly safer...and when you're talking about a half-billion C-Bill DropShip, you don't want to take unnecessary chances.

Thats useful to know thanks! I was considering being an aerodyne dropship captain for a Time of War or 3rd ed MW game. Was going to use the dropship, after the ground pounders were unloaded, to provide fire support to them.

The other idea was to find a way to get a Fortress class ovoid and just support with the longtom on the nose :smallbiggrin:

[Hawriel]

Under certain circumstances, they do.

I see what your saying. I created my own monster mech. I dont think it's as bad. I created a 100 ton longbow and stuffed 4 LRM 20s with max armor load, and as much ammo it could carry. It also had a slave computer and artimis 4. I devastated an assalt clan mech with it in one round. The real key to this was the slave computer.

I got into Battletech when I was 16/17. I was the youngest of my group of friends. That was back in the mid 90s. My friends and I where part of a small group who gamed at the local gaming store. So being that age powergaming kinda works its way in. I learned how not to be a jerk by being ambushed by some guys with the oh so kick ass optimized clan tech.

By the time we drifted away from battletech I started to be more interested in more canon type games. Naver happed because the store went under. To bad because I still really enjoy the in game world.

My friend and I started playing Battletech again last december. We are back to relearning the game and checking out all the 3075 tech by experimenting with build rules. Light gyros, engines, small cockpits, and rotary ACs. I think Im going to strip the stealth system from light mechs.

I think it's way to much. I kinda want to play basic 3025 Battletech.

[Kikaz]

Wow, MegaMek AI is REALLY bad:

Flea FLE-15 (Bot1) must make a piloting skill check (can't get up with destroyed leg and arms).
Needs Impossible [can't get up with destroyed leg and arms], rolls 5 : falls.
****Flea FLE-15 (Bot1) falls on its left side, suffering 2 damage.
********Flea FLE-15 (Bot1) takes 2 damage to CT. SECTION DESTROYED,

*** Flea FLE-15 (Bot1) DESTROYED by damage! ***
******** Critical hit on CT. Roll is 8; 1 location.
************CRITICAL HIT on Flamer.
****
Pilot of Flea FLE-15 (Bot1) "Sharafat Syed" cannot avoid damage.
********Pilot of Flea FLE-15 (Bot1) "Sharafat Syed" takes 1 damage.
So, if I read this right: the pilot of the Flea tried to stand the mech back up with only one leg, fell over and blew up... that's funny.

[Swordguy]

I see what your saying. I created my own monster mech. I dont think it's as bad. I created a 100 ton longbow and stuffed 4 LRM 20s with max armor load, and as much ammo it could carry. It also had a slave computer and artimis 4. I devastated an assalt clan mech with it in one round. The real key to this was the slave computer.

Oh, don't worry too much. If you're going to mix Clan and Inner Sphere tech (as Teej is, above, with his missile carriers and Puma) and do custom designs, then go whole hog.

First thing you do is take a medium Clan OmniMech, such as a Dragonfly (jump 8) and give it a custom configuration with several TAG spotting lasers and NARC beacons, like so:


Viper (Dragonfly)

Mass: 40 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped Omnimech
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-E-E
Production Year: 2940
Cost: 10,211,833 C-Bills
Battle Value: 700

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 320 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 86.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 129.60000000000002 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 240 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
8.5 tons of pod space.
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================== ==============================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 67 points 2.00
Internal Locations: 1 CT, 3 LT, 3 RT
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 320 11.50
Walking MP: 8
Running MP: 12
Jumping MP: 8 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LL, 2 RL 4.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Gyro: GyroStandard 4.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 134 7.00
Armor Locations: 1 HD, 1 LT, 1 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 12 16
Center Torso (rear) 7
L/R Torso 10 13
L/R Torso (rear) 7
L/R Arm 6 12
L/R Leg 10 19



================================================== ==============================
Loadout Name: Insanity Cost: 11,107,221
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-E-E BV2: 1,640

Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jumping MP: 8 (Standard)
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LL, 2 RL 0.00
CASE Locations: LT 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H

Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TAG RA 0 1 1.00
3 ER Medium Lasers RA 15 3 3.00
Narc Launcher LA 0 1 2.00
TAG LA 0 1 1.00
ER Small Laser LA 2 1 0.50
@Narc (Homing) (6) LT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 13

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 4 Points: 16
8j 3 3 0 0 2 0 Structure: 2
Special Abilities: OMNI, SNARC, TAG, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA


Once you've got, say, two of these things in your prospective Star, then you throw three of THESE bastards (below) behind a hill, load them up with Inner Sphere Semi-guided LRM ammo (if shooting SG-LRMs at a TAG'd unit, ignore the Indirect Fire penalty, Spotter's movement penalty, and Target Movement Modifier...plus you're probably standing still while you shoot, and since you're firing indirectly, you ignore terrain modifiers).

Hwacha

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-D
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 23,860,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,969

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 32.400000000000006 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
10 LRM-15s
1 Medium Pulse Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================== ==============================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 152 points 10.00
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 300 9.50
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 20(40) 10.00
Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 1 LA, 1 RA, 1 LL, 1 RL
Gyro: GyroStandard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 272 17.00
CASE Locations: CT, LT, RT 0.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 31 45
Center Torso (rear) 10
L/R Torso 21 35
L/R Torso (rear) 7
L/R Arm 17 32
L/R Leg 21 30

================================================== ==============================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Pulse Laser HD 4 1 2.00
LRM-15 RT 5 2 3.50
LRM-15 LT 5 2 3.50
4 LRM-15s RA 20 8 14.00
4 LRM-15s LA 20 8 14.00
@LRM-15 (16) CT - 2 2.00
@LRM-15 (32) RT - 4 4.00
@LRM-15 (32) LT - 4 4.00
Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 9 Points: 30
3 1 1 0 0 4 2 Structure: 5
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA, LRM 7/7/7, IF 7


With an 8 Jump, they're going to have a horrific time hitting your spotters, and if they ignore them and just go for your fire support units...well...Clan LRMs have no minimum range. EACH Hwacha (named after the Korean cart that fired 200-ish rocket-powered arrows) can put out 120 LRMs per turn if they care about heat, or 150 if they don't.

My BattleTech group, Cincinnati BattleTech (http://www.cincybattletech.com/) goes and plays the canon storyline event game every year - all on the same team. They've had to rewrite scenarios the night before because of us. We took the Word of Blake on a 4-year consecutive winning streak before CGL got wise and broke up our command team by making some of us Demo Agents. Using TAG/Semi-guided LRM tactics with an understanding of the principles of concentrate fire and terrain superiority, not only did we win a lot...but we canonically ran the Inner Sphere OUT of Semi-guided LRMs. They can't be used in future Jihad-related canon events because there aren't any more! :smallbiggrin:

Trust me - that stuff works.

[Simba]

WOW.

It's been years since I last played Battletech. I love the tabletop game and used to play tournaments for a while. I stopped playing way back, though.

The roleplaying game was even more fun, we played with 3-5 characters per player, most of them pilots so we could field 12 mechs. Everyone had one non-pilot character so we could also play games where the mechs were not there. Tons of fun!

I would love to start a game here and I bet it would work. I guess agreeing on a setting/time/techlevel would be hard, though.

[FelixG]

WOW.

It's been years since I last played Battletech. I love the tabletop game and used to play tournaments for a while. I stopped playing way back, though.

The roleplaying game was even more fun, we played with 3-5 characters per player, most of them pilots so we could field 12 mechs. Everyone had one non-pilot character so we could also play games where the mechs were not there. Tons of fun!

I would love to start a game here and I bet it would work. I guess agreeing on a setting/time/techlevel would be hard, though.

I myself am fond of the Fedcom Civil War time and setting :smallbiggrin:

[Gnoman]

I'm supprised alot of peaple dont use custome mechs more often. Is it that most players use the published senarios more often? Most games I have played have been skirmishes.


BV. The BV system is very easy to use, but somewhat complex to assign to a unit. Thus, it's fairly common to just say "published configurations only." This way nobody ahs to go through every unit and make sure that the value was calculated correctly.

[FelixG]

BV. The BV system is very easy to use, but somewhat complex to assign to a unit. Thus, it's fairly common to just say "published configurations only." This way nobody ahs to go through every unit and make sure that the value was calculated correctly.

That's why you use one of the several custom mech builders out there.

I personally love my copy of Heavy Metal to death.

[big teej]

WOW.


I would love to start a game here and I bet it would work. I guess agreeing on a setting/time/techlevel would be hard, though.

+234985629387492347

also, I vote for when Hanse Davion was still in control of the Steiner-Davion set up


that way I can make the most of that mech list I posted up a few pages back :smallbiggrin:

(provided somebody is willing to put up with someone never playing before)

[John Campbell]

BV. The BV system is very easy to use, but somewhat complex to assign to a unit. Thus, it's fairly common to just say "published configurations only." This way nobody ahs to go through every unit and make sure that the value was calculated correctly.

The problem with BV isn't that it's hard to calculate. Mech designers do it automatically, and check your math on the mech build itself while they're at it.

The problem with BV is that it's imperfect and exploitable. Even with canon mechs, the BV number only matches very roughly with their actual combat capabilities (and I'm not slagging on BV here... given the complexity of the game, it's downright miraculous that it works as well as it does)... some mechs are underrated, some overrated, usually because there's a subtle but major flaw in the mech that doesn't show up in the formula, or because the BV formula's assumptions about the mech's usage don't quite match up with reality.

This is only a minor problem when you stick with canon designs. You pick up the underrated mechs, avoid the overrated ones, and it's all good. But once you introduce customs, you can start deliberately gaming the BV formula to maximize the gap between how good the formula evaluates the mech as and how good it really is.... e.g., slapping flamers you never intend to use on a mech to wreck its theoretical heat curve and drop its BV, without significantly affecting its actual capabilities.

In the extreme case - though they've closed this loophole in later revisions of the BV formula - it used to be possible to build a mech with a negative BV. 20 tonner, 8/12, a single machine gun with all remaining tonnage dedicated to MG ammo, and no armor, had a BV of -76. It's an ammunition explosion on legs, but it's still marginally combat capable, and you gain available BV for every one you field. In a pure BV-limited game, you field an arbitrary number of these, and then any force you want with the BV they generated for you. And the negative-BV machines may not be contributing much, but they're not actually a liability... they still do contribute.

[Kikaz]

My BattleTech group, Cincinnati BattleTech (http://www.cincybattletech.com/) goes and plays the canon storyline event game every year - all on the same team. They've had to rewrite scenarios the night before because of us. We took the Word of Blake on a 4-year consecutive winning streak before CGL got wise and broke up our command team by making some of us Demo Agents. Using TAG/Semi-guided LRM tactics with an understanding of the principles of concentrate fire and terrain superiority, not only did we win a lot...but we canonically ran the Inner Sphere OUT of Semi-guided LRMs. They can't be used in future Jihad-related canon events because there aren't any more! :smallbiggrin:

Trust me - that stuff works.

Now that is a war story.

[Swordguy]

OK, folks. Out of town till Sunday night. Try to keep the thread alive, yeah?

If anyone has questions regarding how to get into BT or similar, I'll get 'em when I get back. :smallwink:

[Kobold Esq]

I've been following this thread, though not closely. I only have very limited experience with the tabletop game (all my experience comes from the CCG and Mechwarrior computer games, plus reading some novels).

Has anyone considered running a play by post game here? I don't know what software, if any, exists to handle the mapping adequately though...

[big teej]

its at this point I'd like to +1 the idea of a play by post mech game again :smallbiggrin:


I also +1 the idea of it being a tutorial game, so those of us (me) who have no clue what we're doing can learn the system in a safe envioronment filled with experts (swordguy)

[Kobold Esq]

I also +1 the idea of it being a tutorial game, so those of us (me) who have no clue what we're doing can learn the system in a safe envioronment filled with experts (swordguy)

This too! I've played a grand total of maybe four actual skirmishes, the last of which was in 1999 at GenCon.

[big teej]

as an alternative setting that gets my vote


the clans.


followed by
the lowest tech level possible (that way we start with basics and can move up to more complex and moar powarful pew pew)

[9mm]

I don't know what software, if any, exists to handle the mapping adequately though...

welcome to the reason 2 I'm not already running one. Maps are a massive stumbling block.

[big teej]

welcome to the reason 2 I'm not already running one. Maps are a massive stumbling block.

we could ask arrowhen, he had some really sweet maps for a play-by-post I was in

I'll dig up a link to one later, gotta get to work.

[Mando Knight]

MapTool can do hex maps, though you'd need to get your own texture sets for tokens and such.

[Shyftir]

Also +1 the tutorial play by post, if it goes well I'll be introducing BT to my gaming group. I'm not betting that I'll get them hardcore into it but it's worth a try.

My experience is almost all video game and novel based.

[The_JJ]

If this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaMek) is above board, then it'd be a pretty easy fix for map problems.

[Mauther]

as an alternative setting that gets my vote


the clans.


followed by
the lowest tech level possible (that way we start with basics and can move up to more complex and moar powarful pew pew)

I'd start with 4th Succession war. Basic 3025 tech, not too complicated but pretty much every type of fight/scenario you can think of. Even LAMs (god rest their cheezy copywrite burning souls). Plus any war that starts with some guy giving away his enemy's territory as a marriage gift to his bride gets bonus points.

Graduate up to the clan invasion once your a bit more experienced. The challenge of taking on clan mechs with 3025 tech is a great experience.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It is also not too terribally difficult to generate numbered hexgrid (will have to be numbered in PbP so everyone knows where everyone is going), which can then be edited with topography on top of that.

+1 for being involved in a, or multiple, tutorial games. I can referee or be a third party adjudicator or simply Rules Wierdo for games.

I also vote 3025 tech, let's keep it simple before we start reaching for the EWF and Clan tech.

[Kobold Esq]

Would it be easier to run a single larger beginner game, or have a number of smaller games?

If it is a single large game, we could easily put one experienced person on each side, and give them a team of newbies to direct.

[Kikaz]

I may be able to make a map, though it would be in about a week as I'm away from my utilities. I do remember seeing hexmap generation tools somewhere though...

[The Glyphstone]

I like the sound of a tutorial game. Battletech is awesome, but I've never played anything related outside the Mech(whatever) video/computer games.

[Gnoman]

If this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaMek) is above board, then it'd be a pretty easy fix for map problems.

Perfectly aboveboard. The makers were given permission to make it.

[Hawriel]

MapTool can do hex maps, though you'd need to get your own texture sets for tokens and such.

This will work. My friend and I looked at map tools and its token maker. The program has a hex grid option. The token maker can make a token out of any thing in your pic file.

Grab your favorite mechs and a camara. Start taking pictures of them looking strate down. Or you could just rip pics from web pages and make tokens form thoughs. All you have to do is mark a front facing on the hex shaped token.

Then grab some free textures for making maps and go nuts. There is a character sheet otion in maptools so you might be able to put a Jpeg of a mech in the portrat box. It also has a simple dice roller. All target numbers can be calculated and posted in chat.

[Kikaz]

This will work. My friend and I looked at map tools and its token maker. The program has a hex grid option. The token maker can make a token out of any thing in your pic file.

Grab your favorite mechs and a camara. Start taking pictures of them looking strate down. Or you could just rip pics from web pages and make tokens form thoughs. All you have to do is mark a front facing on the hex shaped token.

Then grab some free textures for making maps and go nuts. There is a character sheet otion in maptools so you might be able to put a Jpeg of a mech in the portrat box. It also has a simple dice roller. All target numbers can be calculated and posted in chat.

So... we got a game?

[Hawriel]

So... we got a game?

I just ment that using maptools would work. Im sorry that I cant actualy play. Ive been working alot sence my car was totaled afew weeks ago. I need to save up for a new one and all. I am sorry if my post was missleading. I wanted to support and encorage the rest of you.

PS

Have fun kicking WOB ass swordguy.

:smallredface: Oh valentines day monday. Unless I made a mistake on your battletech game enjoy your week end.:smallredface:

[Kikaz]

I just ment that using maptools would work. Im sorry that I cant actualy play. Ive been working alot sence my car was totaled afew weeks ago. I need to save up for a new one and all. I am sorry if my post was missleading. I wanted to support and encorage the rest of you.

PS

Have fun kicking WOB ass swordguy.

:smallredface: Oh valentines day monday. Unless I made a mistake on your battletech game enjoy your week end.:smallredface:

Oh, no you were quite clear. I was mainly referring to the elements necessary for a game here, and if we had all of them.

[Gnoman]

Megamek would be far better than maptools. It's actually designed for Battletech.

[Kobold Esq]

I've been fiddling with megamek... It seems like it would be a nuisance for anything other than one on one.

[FelixG]

I've been fiddling with megamek... It seems like it would be a nuisance for anything other than one on one.

I have done 8 on 8 mech battles between 4 players in about an hour.

Mega Mek is actually faster than playing the board game if you are not intimatly familiar with the rules.

Another nice thing about it is that it gets you familiar with the rolls, it tells you the bonuses and negatives for individual actions as well as a percentage chance of success to help you gauge how well a particular tactic is going to work.

Sadly I have never managed to find a way to work in Aerotech effectively, il have to ask sword guy when he gets back

[Kikaz]

I find MegaMek quite nice too, though there's a bit of a learning curve.

[Kobold Esq]

How does it work for networked? Maybe I misunderstood, but it looks like the only way to do the equivalent of a play by post is to save the game and email it to the next person to act.

I may have a fundamental misunderstanding about how it works for multiplayer online play.

[Kobold Esq]

Unrelated: I've been running some one map skirmishes against the computer, and even with significant BV/tech advantages, I'm getting pounded to bits. :(

[Gnoman]

Megamek works Perfectly networked. There's even campaign software for it. You could set up A GitP campaign if you wanted to.

[FelixG]

One person hosts a game, gives the others that wish to connect to it the address and they join it.

Alternatively you can go online to find a number of always on servers to connect to and reset if no one is playing so you can rock and roll there.

When I get home I will look up the server lists on my computer and maybe share some here if allowed.

Also: Yes the computer can do quite well, as I said, when I ran a few RPG games using it i gave the AI my "grunt" mechs while i held just a couple of "villian" mechs in my own control. :smallwink:

[a_humble_lich]

I've been playing around with MegaMek too and I like it but it seems really unstable for me and will freeze regularly. Do other people have problems with that or is it just me :smallfrown:

I could just need a faster computer.

[Reverent-One]

The only real problem I've run into with Megamek (though I've haven't used it too extensively) is it having issues actually connecting to the other players.

[FelixG]

it gets a bit finicky with player to player, but using a server works

IIRC this is the one my friends and I used: http://megamek.game-host.org/

[big teej]

-big teej has no idea what he's doing, but he wants to play-


A centurion is a valid mech choice for 3025 correct?
given that it's the only model I have, I'd like to pilot one for my first go around



Would it be easier to run a single larger beginner game, or have a number of smaller games?

If it is a single large game, we could easily put one experienced person on each side, and give them a team of newbies to direct.

+1 to this idea,

I think that would also keep the match from degenerating into a slugfest that results in autovictory for experts (swordguy)


but heck, if we got everyone on this thread to play in the tutorial game, we could give each team an equal number of 'vets' and give each of them a lance worth of us noobies.

[Kobold Esq]

So I've been playing the first training scenario included in MegaMek as "Trainee A". The closest I've ever come to victory is my Griffin missing repeatedly as it tries to kill some stupid rinky dink Stinger that keeps running behind me. (my Wasp was also KO'd with one leg and both arms destroyed, while I had destroyed the enemy Wolverine already)


Argh, so frustrating, but I keep playing over and over.

[Kikaz]

So I've been playing the first training scenario included in MegaMek as "Trainee A". The closest I've ever come to victory is my Griffin missing repeatedly as it tries to kill some stupid rinky dink Stinger that keeps running behind me. (my Wasp was also KO'd with one leg and both arms destroyed, while I had destroyed the enemy Wolverine already)


Argh, so frustrating, but I keep playing over and over.

First game I played, I charged a Jenner II with my Wasp; the Wasp ran into it, fell over, the pilot lost consciousness and then the Jenner sat there shooting it until it blew up.

[Kobold Esq]

First game I played, I charged a Jenner II with my Wasp; the Wasp ran into it, fell over, the pilot lost consciousness and then the Jenner sat there shooting it until it blew up.

Almost as good as the win I just got! One of the pregens was Smoke Jaguar (Warhawk + elemental point) against Davion (Victor in Prometheus, plus a Falconer).

The battle was ended with five rounds of one lonely elemental firing its small laser at the cockpit of the downed Daishi where Victor was laying unconscious until Victor died. Kind of an anti-climactic end.

It seems like many small skirmishes I've been in are decided in hilarious fashion (involving usually me getting my gyro blasted and being unable to stand up). I suppose in larger combats, this level of luck evens out.

[Darrin]

@ darrin
but what, may I ask, would you pick up first if you had the chance?

either for A) an assault lance, or B) a 'balanced' lance consisting of a light, medium, heavy, and assault?


Sorry for the long delay... been out of the game so long, it took me a while to put this together. These are all Inner Sphere 'mechs, since I never had much interest in Clan tech. I haven't been keeping up with the factions, but if I were putting together a Merc company and just bought the 'mechs I liked, then it'd look something like this:

Level 1 (3025)

Light Lance:

MON-67 Mongoose. Locust with better armor and 3 MLs.

SDR-5V Spider. Spends most of the battle going "Neener neener neener!" but every once in a while you get to sink your fangs into some poor SOB's rear armor.

JR7-F Jenner. Yeah, I know, everyone takes the stinkin' F-version, but hey... hard to argue with results, and the JR7-F is one of the tougher lights.

WLF-1 Wolfhound. My favorite light 'mech, but dagnabbit I miss those DHS. Decent speed, max armor, and great survivability. Runs a little hot if you can't resist the alpha strike, but these things can tear apart most medium 'mechs.

Medium Lance:

WTH-1 Whitworth. A little slow, but adds some decent fire support and not entirely harmless if you get up close to it.

HBK-4G Hunchback. There are very few problems in Battletech that cannot be solved by repeatedly shooting it in the face with an AC/20. However, I'd much rather take an AC/20 to the face than go up against the HBK-4P (8xML)... Holy Kerensky, that 'mech is absolute pure murder to anything within 9 hexes.

GRF-1N Griffin. Good mix of fire support and mobility. Runs a little hot, but usually mobile enough to get back into cover to cool down.

WVR-6M Wolverine. Nasty up-close brawler with a lot of short-range firepower, good mobility, and decent heat management.

Heavy Lance:

CPLT-C1 Catapult. Great mix of mobility, long-range fire support, lots of MLs at short range, and good heat management.

CRD-3K Crusader. The CRD-3R runs too darned hot, I'd rather drop the LRM racks to 10's and keep the pair of SRM6s. Good for getting up close, you can fire the SRMs and MLs every round and stay cool.

ARC-2R Archer. Classic LRM-boat. Runs a little hot but can't go wrong with an Archie.

WHM-6D Warhammer. Max armor, better heat management, and no useless MG ammo to blow up on you.

Assault Lance:

STK-3H Stalker. It kills things at long range. It kills things at short range. It just plain kills things period.

BLR-1G BattleMaster. Can't keep up with most assaults at long range, but get up close and holy *bleep* this can dish out the whoopass.

BNC-3S Banshee. More awesome than the Awesome.

IMP-2E Imp. Outguns the Atlas at long range. Outguns the Atlas at short range. I am the Eggman, koo-koo-kachoo.

Level 2 (3050+)

Light Lance:

RTX1-OB Raptor. 20-ton 'mech that can move 7/11 and unload up to 39 points on an alpha strike.

SDR-8M Spider. Same as the SDR-7M, but someone was smart enough to put in DHS.

TLN-5W Talon. Fast sniper (moves 8/12) for pecking away with the ERPPC at 21 hexes.

WLF-2 Wolfhound. One of the best light 'mechs EVAR. Still runs a little hot with the ERLL, but wow these things can take a lot of punishment.

Medium Lance:

SR1-OE Strider. Most people think of SRMs as crit-hunters, but Streak-6s also tear off armor in 12-point chunks. 2xStreak-6 + ML = 39 points of damage on an alpha strike.

HBK-5N Hunchback. Same as the HBK-4G, just with DHS... and yes, I *do* want to keep all 10 shots of my AC/20, thank you very much.

APL-2S Apollo. A "Mini-Archer", a little slow but very sturdy for a 55-tonner. Unlike the Archer, the MLs are in the torso, freeing up the arms for punching.

TR1 Wraith. I have some issues with this design... it has heat problems if you jump and fire everything every turn, and I don't like that all the weapons are mounted in the arms, but once it gets into the right terrain this thing can become nigh-unhittable. Yeah, it's a cheddarsniper, but effective.

Heavy Lance:

ARC-4M Archer. One of the very few 3050 upgrades they didn't screw up. Nearly perfect, although if I can customize, I try and move the arm-mounted MLs into the torso (frees up the fists for punching) or flip the MLs in the CT forward.

WHM-8D Warhammer. Now that's how you update a Warhammer: Ditch the MGs, swap the energy weapons for ER versions, upgrade to a Streak-6, and max out the armor.

FLC-8R Falconer. I try to avoid XL engines whenever I can, but in this case the Falconer makes up for the fragility with pure whoopass.

ON2-M Orion. Max armor + icebox design (can fire everything and run without generating heat). Also can do up to 30 damage at long range, or up to 48 once the 3 MPLs get in range.

Assault Lance:

BLR-3M BattleMaster. Basically the same as the BLR-1G, but with DHS it can now alpha (fire everything) every turn.

VKG-2F Viking. Yes, I would like some LRMs! And some more... and some more!

HA1-OB Hauptman. No XL engine so it lasts longer. It's a bleepin' assault, it doesn't need to be fast, it just needs to dish out the hurt, and I think the Ultra AC/20 does that very nicely.

IMP-4E Imp. Everything that made the IMP-2E nasty, only with better range, a bigger LRM, and enough DHS to keep relatively cool.

[Seatbelt]

Are there any like.. prepackaged adventures? I would like to run some linked scenarios in the style of like Mech Commander 2 or MW4 where the players land as some rinky-dink merc group, salvage mechs, get more powerful, do something cool. But I don't have the time to design all that stuff and frankly I just want an excuse to buy and paint a bunch of mechs and tanks and such.

[Gorgon_Heap]

Gobs of them.

Though I've never played any of them. We always did freeform battles.

Oh, and I only came in to comment that I'm pretty astonished to find there are still BT fans out there.

Preach it.

[big teej]

Darrin's posts are uber-helpful XD


I also like the whole "no problem in battle tech.... repeatedly shooting it in the face" comment

I have a quote very similar to that that I use all the time
"there is no problem in the world that cannot be solved by the proper and precise application of brute force"

of course "shooting it in the face with an AC20" works too



okay new question for the posters

what clan?
(ghost bear here!)

[FelixG]

Back in my Mech Commander (IIRC) Cobra league or Star League days I was always clan Wolverine :smallbiggrin:

Always fun winning the trial of Annihilation AND winning a place in the invasion of the inner sphere haha

[otakuryoga]

HBK-4G Hunchback. There are very few problems in Battletech that cannot be solved by repeatedly shooting it in the face with an AC/20. However, I'd much rather take an AC/20 to the face than go up against the HBK-4P (8xML)... Holy Kerensky, that 'mech is absolute pure murder to anything within 9 hexes.


thats why i love it so much...every 3rd turn have to remember to fire 7 instead of 8 ML...and makes the piloting rolls rain down like, well, rain...followed by enemy mechs falling down
its amazing how much less dangerous a fallen enemy mech is :smallcool:

[MeeposFire]

thats why i love it so much...every 3rd turn have to remember to fire 7 instead of 8 ML...and makes the piloting rolls rain down like, well, rain...followed by enemy mechs falling down
its amazing how much less dangerous a fallen enemy mech is :smallcool:

Sounds like being in a Nova except with less lasers.

I remember liking the Super Nova in Mechwarrior 3. 6 ER large lasers and a big map was fun.

[FelixG]

Sounds like being in a Nova except with less lasers.

I remember liking the Super Nova in Mechwarrior 3. 6 ER large lasers and a big map was fun.

Makes me wish I hadn't lost my copy of MW3.

Though I cant remember if I ever managed to get C3 or C3s computers to work on my mech

[MeeposFire]

I was never entirely sure what they did in game mechanics with those C computers.

Anybody ever use a piranha mech? So many machine guns so little time.

[Seatbelt]

http://www.mektek.net/

Is a free open source and legal means of acquiring MW2/3/4 with some graphics updates. Its hella fun.


Can anyone suggest to me a good module to run or a place to look for them?

[Darrin]

I was never entirely sure what they did in game mechanics with those C computers.


At best, it could reduce your range modifier from long range to short range, effectively a -4 on your TN. However, that assumes the firing 'mech isn't moving, doesn't have any intervening terrain features, and your spotter 'mech is at optimum range for all the weapons you want to fire.

In most games, when you start to factor in that all your 'mechs are constantly moving and all the terrain features, it's difficult to get C3 to give you any kind of bonus. The other problem is that to get that -4 bonus, there has to be a lot of separation between your lead spotter and your big guns... which is usually lousy tactics. Any 'mech that gets separated from your main force that your enemy can focus its fire on will die very quickly. Many players assume the best spotters are light + fast 'mechs, but actually your ideal C3 spotter is something big, heavy, and not afraid to wade into the middle of a cluster*bleep*.



Anybody ever use a piranha mech? So many machine guns so little time.

It's pure absolute GAWDMODE if you're using the Solaris-7 dueling rules... which puzzled me greatly, since it's a Clan 'mech, and the Clans *hate* S7 with a passion.

[tyckspoon]

At best, it could reduce your range modifier from long range to short range, effectively a -4 on your TN. However, that assumes the firing 'mech isn't moving, doesn't have any intervening terrain features, and your spotter 'mech is at optimum range for all the weapons you want to fire.



I find C3 works best with multiple spotters, really. Get one really fast Light, one decent Medium/lower weight Heavy with good medium-range throw weight (an SRM or [ER]ML boat, maybe an AC/10 or 3), and a couple of long-range supports, Gauss rifles/ERPPCs/LRMs. The Light jumps around, hugs terrain, and threatens back shots, while primarily serving to spot. The medium-range attacker uses the Light's spotting to help beat up your focus target while being able to more effectively choose defensive positions, and is back-up spotter for when your opponent inevitably gets tired of the Light and swats it. The long-range support does what they do, and between the Light and the Medium spotting should never be firing from any further than medium range and will often have short. Works pretty well.

'Course, that does nothing to help with ECM-carrying mechs, which are the major reason I don't normally bother choosing C3-network groups. Stuff just kinda randomly shows up on mechs and knocks huge holes in your network coverage, generally for much much less BV cost than you spent on having the C3.

[9mm]

It's pure absolute GAWDMODE if you're using the Solaris-7 dueling rules... which puzzled me greatly, since it's a Clan 'mech, and the Clans *hate* S7 with a passion.

You forget the Clan RoE's. One on One combat unless the enemy gangs up or begins acting extremely dishonorable.

[MeeposFire]

Yea the Clans hate Solaris but that is a hatred of mercenaries and fighting for money. Clans do one on one duels all the time Trials of whatever and the like.

That many machine guns must be nasty assuming you can get close enough to use them.

[Kikaz]

Almost as good as the win I just got! One of the pregens was Smoke Jaguar (Warhawk + elemental point) against Davion (Victor in Prometheus, plus a Falconer).

The battle was ended with five rounds of one lonely elemental firing its small laser at the cockpit of the downed Daishi where Victor was laying unconscious until Victor died. Kind of an anti-climactic end.

It seems like many small skirmishes I've been in are decided in hilarious fashion (involving usually me getting my gyro blasted and being unable to stand up). I suppose in larger combats, this level of luck evens out.

Hahah, nice. Elemental trumps Dire Wolf, of course!

[Shyftir]

okay new question for the posters

what clan?
(ghost bear here!)

Nova Cat fan here, hate the 'Mech love the clan. Though the Falcons have a warm spot in my heart from the Jade Pheonix stuff.

[The_JJ]

The habit of 'abrev'-ing is becoming popular, at least with the SoCal 18-22 range.

I'm going to start using Clan slang until I start getting 'aff' and 'neg' from complete strangers.

[big teej]

The habit of 'abrev'-ing is becoming popular, at least with the SoCal 18-22 range.

I'm going to start using Clan slang until I start getting 'aff' and 'neg' from complete strangers.

that could take quite a bit of time quiaff?

[Kobold Esq]

Nova Cat fan here, hate the 'Mech love the clan. Though the Falcons have a warm spot in my heart from the Jade Pheonix stuff.

Jade Falcon, based entirely on my love for them in the CCG.

[John Campbell]

The only Clan worth the nukes it'd take to vaporize them bugged out after they got Trial-of-Annihilationed for questioning Crazy Nickie.

[Hawriel]

I tried out the Banchee S variant yester day against my fiend. It's the Stiener variant given in the 3025 tech read out. The origional one with the marauder on the cover. Pure level 1 tech in a level 3 game. It got my only two kills in the game and severely damaged two other mechs.

Ok it is a 95 ton mech and that variant does have alot of teeth.

[Mando Knight]

Falcons? Really? Wolf is where it's at.

[The_JJ]

that could take quite a bit of time quiaff?

Neg. I'm in a pretty self contained community (also known as a liberal arts college). Fads pass around like the common cold here.

[Ialdabaoth]

Ideally, you want to deploy C3 at the company level, and you want one spotter per lance.

Also - don't be tricked into taking light spotters! A Charger or Phoenix Hawk IIC can jump 8 hexes - which is ADMIRABLE speed for a spotter unit.

Your best C3 spotters, in order, are:

- an 80-tonner with 8 IJJ. (Chargers are the best chassis to start with, here)
- a 4/6/4 100-tonner with a hatchet and TSM. (Hey, look! A Berserker!)
- a 55-tonner with 10IJJ, TSM, and two punchy fists. (Wraiths are amazing platforms for this - just strip out those stupid arm lasers!)

Always maximize armor, engine, and IJJ, then give it TSM, a C3 Slave, and a TAG. Fill the rest with SRM's or Medium Lasers of whatever flavor seems fun, and prepare for carnage!

[FelixG]

Throw on a NARC with those SRMs for some added fun :smallbiggrin:

[king.com]

Falcons? Really? Wolf is where it's at.

They havn't been the same since they all split off from the main group, Dragoons, Kell Hounds. Hell Clan Wolf In Exile is more impressive than the regular Wolves.

[big teej]

Neg. I'm in a pretty self contained community (also known as a liberal arts college). Fads pass around like the common cold here.

I am intrigued
you must let me know how this little experiment works out.

I may have to try it at my own college

[Mando Knight]

They havn't been the same since they all split off from the main group, Dragoons, Kell Hounds. Hell Clan Wolf In Exile is more impressive than the regular Wolves.
That's an issue you should take up with Jade Falcon. They were just jealous of the Wolves, so they complained about them after the Invasion and forced them to break up in the Refusal War.

The Exiles are pretty cool, though. Except that some people may cry foul because its Khan (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Phelan_Kell) was raised and trained by both of the Writers' Favorite Merc Groups, the Hounds and the Dragoons. (And he's one of the few known Freeborn Khans since the introduction of the Clan Eugenics...)

[FelixG]

Well the Wolves turned their own Trial of Refusal into a Trial of Annihilation, its their own fault they got that emo panzy Vlad as their Kahn after the Falcons murdered Ulric

[big teej]

on a quasi related note

are any of the clan mechs I've mentioned (Daishi, Thor, Puma, Madcat in particular) unique to a specific clan?