oracles message fufilled

[Temassasin]

when the oracle said the V would get power by saying four words did V say them when (s)he said i.. i must succeed?

[The Pilgrim]

Apparently, yes.

Reinforced by the fact that the strip in which V says that phrase is named "The Four Words".

[NerfTW]

And the commentary in Don't Split the Party, which lays out the exact meaning of V's question and the results, regardless of some people who still argued the author himself was lying or wrong.

[TimelordSimone]

And the commentary in Don't Split the Party, which lays out the exact meaning of V's question and the results, regardless of some people who still argued the author himself was lying or wrong.

There was a thread about that. I found it in like two minutes by using the search function.
(I don't mean to sound harsh, I am genuinely Just Saying.:smallsmile:)

[Alagaesian]

Apparently, yes.

Reinforced by the fact that the strip in which V says that phrase is named "The Four Words".

Actually, it's titled "The Wrong Reasons". Same idea, though.

[Dr.Epic]

I think Rich said so, but I have my doubts.

[Swordpriest]

I agree it's pretty lame, but the rest of the comic is awesome enough that who cares? :smallsmile:

[NerfTW]

I think Rich said so, but I have my doubts.

Besides being said on this forum as TimelordSimone said, I already pointed out that The Giant spells it out exactly in the commentary in Don't Split the Party. It's a whole page. So the only way you can "doubt" it is to basically say he's lying.

Here's the actual text:


V asks the kobold, "How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?" The Oracle responds," by saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons."
...
The Oracle pulled the same verbal trick on both V and the readers, replying positively to a phrase that connoted one thing, but actually denoted a lesser thing. Once V accepted the splices, he/she did have complete and total ultimate arcane power- insofar as he/she contained all three possible soul splices( and thus had a complete set), could use all of their spells at the same time (accessing the sum total of their magic), and had more total spell levels available than any other spellcaster. (giving him/her the ultimate selection of arcane powers.) Of course, more spells than anyone else does not necessarily mean every spell, and it certainly does not mean infinite power
...
The question then becomes, did events come to pass as the Oracle predicted? Yes. The being in question? Vaarsuvius him/herself. The four words? "I... I must succeed", spoken at the end of strip #634
....
As for the wrong reasons, Vaarsuvius chose to accept the fiends deal in order to preserve his/.her belief in the unrivaled might of arcane magic.


It goes on, especially on how V was doing it for the "wrong" reasons, but I'm not going to transcribe the entire page here.

[Swordpriest]

Aaaaaand we have a neat encapsulation of why I despise that story arc. V was railroaded by the author into a situation where he was forced to make a certain choice, and then blamed for it.

It was a bit like tying somebody up, tying their finger around the trigger of a gun pointed at somebody else, attaching a cord to their finger, and pulling on the cord so that their finger pulls the trigger, then trying them for murder and expecting everyone else to agree that's reasonable.

This thread has reminded me of the one part of this comic that I really, really dislike, so I think I'll bow out of it at this point. Not criticizing anyone here, just not a topic I'd really like to participate in any more than I already have.

[theinsulabot]

thats an extremely poor analogy. it would be more like doing what you just said, except instead, the cord doesn't do anything, and whispering in their ear if they wanted to they could kill the other person right then and get away with it because everyone would think it was the cord to blame.

following that analogy, V then shot the victim in cold blood.

[Swordpriest]

thats an extremely poor analogy. it would be more like doing what you just said, except instead, the cord doesn't do anything, and whispering in their ear if they wanted to they could kill the other person right then and get away with it because everyone would think it was the cord to blame.

following that analogy, V then shot the victim in cold blood.

Yes, that's true. V could have left his family to be tortured to death and eaten, then soul bound, by the dragon. However, I'm not sure if that really constitutes a "choice" because one of the alternatives is something that practically nobody (and perhaps nobody non-psychopathic who actually had a spouse and children in that situation) would accept.

But yes, V did have a choice, so the analogy is flawed.

Here's a better one.

Someone ties you up and gives you a rocket launcher, then ties up your family and points a steamroller at them, so that it will roll over them feet first. Having the choice between allowing your family to be slowly steamrolled, and firing the rocket launcher to disable it, you are probably 99% likely to fire the rocket launcher. Then, of course, you are blamed for "doing it because of an unreasonable faith in the power of ballistics."

That's what it's like -- a much better analogy, IMO.

[Thanatosia]

THis has been a VERY vigorously discussed into the ground topic, with multiple threads going very long in arguments and counterarguments. Word of God pretty much says the prophecy has been fulfilled.

Unfortunately, in one of the only situations of arguably bad writing to be found in all of OOTS, many people, myself included, find Vs prophecy fulfillment very unsatisfactory.

Some people feel that the soul splice did not count as Total Ultimate Arcane Power. Both because the actual extent of his powers under the splice seemed somewhat limited compared to what the words 'total ultimate arcane power' conjures in ones mind, and because of Xykons speach that strongly implies that V never had any real Power from the soul splice in the first place.

Others have taken issue with the fact that one word was just 'I' repeated twice. Kind of a semantic issue, but it is a gripe I've heard.

My personal stance is that the Oracle implied that the speaking of the 4 words would be the mechanism by which the power was obtained, and the giant then went out of his way to put in a non-verbal mechanism (the red and blue orbs) by which the Soul Splice agreement was 'signed'. This is the most egregious instance of 'bad writing' in the prophecy In my personal opinion, and strongly feel that the Giants insertion of the cheap "matrix" gag invalidated any legitimate fulfillment of the prophecy for no good reason... if the 4 words could have been taken as acceptance of the soul splice, then it would have been a valid fulfillment, but instead they just seem kind of... there.

Another complaint is that the 4 words would be spoken to the right being (singular) while the fiends that granted the power were 3 beings. Some counter argue that the words where spoken by V to V himself (the right being), to 'psych' himself up to it. This interpretation also helps counteract the 'causality' falure between the 4 words and the obtaining of the power, the argument goes that V "had" to say those words to himself in order to make himself touch the acceptance orb... I find that claim spurious, but thats just my opinion.

But anyhow, regaurdless of how we 'feel' about the validity of the prophecy and the fulfillment thereof, the Giant has laid the issue to rest in his Don't Split the Party commentary... the prophecy has been fulfilled.

[theinsulabot]

Yes, that's true. V could have left his family to be tortured to death and eaten, then soul bound, by the dragon. However, I'm not sure if that really constitutes a "choice" because one of the alternatives is something that practically nobody (and perhaps nobody non-psychopathic who actually had a spouse and children in that situation) would accept.

But yes, V did have a choice, so the analogy is flawed.

Here's a better one.

Someone ties you up and gives you a rocket launcher, then ties up your family and points a steamroller at them, so that it will roll over them feet first. Having the choice between allowing your family to be slowly steamrolled, and firing the rocket launcher to disable it, you are probably 99% likely to fire the rocket launcher. Then, of course, you are blamed for "doing it because of an unreasonable faith in the power of ballistics."

That's what it's like -- a much better analogy, IMO.


nooo... see, V had the option of saving his family without the splice. It would be one thing if he only had two options....splice and save his family, or don't splice and they die, however, that was incorrect. and V KNEW it was incorrect. He chose to splice anyway because losing a level and admitting he was wrong was to him a worse thought then splicing and the risks inherent in doing so. V made the choice to do it. He didn't do it to save his family, as his master could have done everything he did without problems

[Swordpriest]

My personal stance is that the Oracle implied that the speaking of the 4 words would be the mechanism by which the power was obtained, and the giant then went out of his way to put in a non-verbal mechanism (the red and blue orbs) by which the Soul Splice agreement was 'signed'. This is the most egregious instance of 'bad writing' in the prophecy In my personal opinion, and strongly feel that the Giants insertion of the cheap "matrix" gag invalidated any legitimate fulfillment of the prophecy for no good reason... if the 4 words could have been taken as acceptance of the soul splice, then it would have been a valid fulfillment, but instead they just seem kind of... there.

But anyhow, regaurdless of how we 'feel' about the validity of the prophecy and the fulfillment thereof, the Giant has laid the issue to rest in his Don't Split the Party commentary... the prophecy has been fulfilled.

I agree with both points of your summary, but would also like to add one more.

"Saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons."

That appears to be an exact reversal of what happened. "I-I must succeed" are the right words -- in what way? A bunch of soul-leaching demons and devils are "the right being" -- really :smallconfused:? At "the right time" -- trapped on a tiny island with the clock ticking on the torment and death of your family is the right time -- really? Saving your family from being eaten alive and soul bound is "all the wrong reasons" -- really?

Heck, saving any two little kids and harmless baker from being eaten alive and soulbound is all the wrong reasons?

It would appear to me that the prophecy would only have correct if it was phrased as "by saying the four wrong words to the wrong beings at the wrong time for all the right reasons."

But meh, as I've said before, I can just skip over that arc when I'm reading through the comics, so it's really only of interest when I'm depressed and in the mood for a forum debate.

[theinsulabot]

as the giant said, those words were not to the IFCC, they were spoken to the one, singular being he needed to say them to, V himself, in order to convince himself to splice. and again, because splicing had nothing to do with saving his family because he didnt need to do so, it was "for all the wrong reasons"

[Marillion]

In addition, his goal *wasn't* to save his family. Not entirely. As Inkyrius said, "If you did this terrible thing to yourself out of no motive but concern for us, then end this right now...But I think we both know that this? This thing you've become? This is what you have always really wanted." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html)

[Swordpriest]

as the giant said, those words were not to the IFCC, they were spoken to the one, singular being he needed to say them to, V himself, in order to convince himself to splice. and again, because splicing had nothing to do with saving his family because he didnt need to do so, it was "for all the wrong reasons"

Yep, he didn't need to do it because he could just have let them die. See also my steamroller metaphor -- I already covered this.

[Swordpriest]

In addition, his goal *wasn't* to save his family. Not entirely. As Inkyrius said, "If you did this terrible thing to yourself out of no motive but concern for us, then end this right now...But I think we both know that this? This thing you've become? This is what you have always really wanted." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html)

So, he didn't care about them at all, and it was nothing but an ego trip? Because in order for the statement "all the wrong reasons" to be literally true, then he had to do it because of absolutely no feelings for them at all, in which case why bother pulling out the spikes holding Inkyrius to the tree? If they were absolutely trivial to him, then why bother even talking to them. Just go, kill the dragon, and be on his way without even acknowledging their presence.

By the way, I think that Inkyrius is a complete jackass, but that's another discussion entirely. :smallbiggrin:

[slayerx]

Yep, he didn't need to do it because he could just have let them die. See also my steamroller metaphor -- I already covered this.

The IFCC presented V with an alternative plan, one that would save his family without him needing to resort to the splice. You can argue that the alternative plan would not have worked, but that's a moot point since V did not consider and come to that conclusion. The important thing is that in V's mind, there WAS a way to save his family without taking on the splice, meaning the only TRUE reason he took on the splice was to satisfy his own damn pride...

[Mystic Muse]

I agree with both points of your summary, but would also like to add one more.

"Saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons."

That appears to be an exact reversal of what happened. "I-I must succeed" are the right words -- in what way? A bunch of soul-leaching demons and devils are "the right being" -- really :smallconfused:? At "the right time" -- trapped on a tiny island with the clock ticking on the torment and death of your family is the right time -- really? Saving your family from being eaten alive and soul bound is "all the wrong reasons" -- really?


the fiends specifically brought up that there were alternatives to accepting the splice. In addition, V's words were "I, I must succeed." Not, "I must save them."

Also, the analogy of the steam roller works, but with one distinction. He didn't just kill the MBD, he killed everybody related to her down her family line. If he had just killed the MBD it would have been justified, but he committed genocide which is evil by D&D alignment.

Remember, threads that go into real life morality get locked.

[Swordpriest]

The IFCC presented V with an alternative plan, one that would save his family without him needing to resort to the splice. You can argue whether or not that alternative plan would not have worked, but that's a moot point since V did not consider and come to that conclusion. The important thing is that in V's mind, there WAS a way to save his family without taking on the splice, meaning the only TRUE reason he took on the splice is for his own damn pride

Yeah .... "cut off your own head and have someone carry it to your friends to save your family's life" is a great plan.

It's a stupid part of the comic, a stupid situation, and an author cop-out, IMO. But, you've got your opinion, I've got mine, and we're not going to change them by chewing it over endlessly. I've long ago realized that debate is basically useless, because everyone believes something, and nothing changes that, basically.

So, thanks for the interesting discussion.

[slayerx]

Yeah .... "cut off your own head and have someone carry it to your friends to save your family's life" is a great plan.


Yes, if you actually think about the plan you can find a number of flaws in it, but like i said it doesn't matter what the truth is, only the truth as far as V knows it, since THAT's the basis for V's decision. V only had like literally 5 seconds to make his decision, and thus not enough time to actually analyze their plan. As far as V new, their plan was a viable option. And that's what is important, that "their plan will not work" was NOT one of the reasons he took on the splice

[NerfTW]

Uh, "wrong reasons" does NOT MEAN "wrong decision".

V isn't being "blamed" for anything. Nobody on this planet, including the author, is going to think that V's decision was wrong. What was "wrong" was the decision to do it to prove the superiority of magic. This is further shown when V refuses to relinquish the power or accept non magical aid.


Complain about the story all you want, but don't assign your own meanings to words and then complain about it.

[The Linker]

Debate can be useful. It is possible to raise points the other hasn't considered.

Debating something you don't actually know a lot about while continually saying "But yeah, debate's stupid, I'm not gonna do it," and coming back anyway... that's when it's counterproductive.

[Leecros]

bah, y'all got it wrong.

Yasee, V's power is capped by his/her androgyny


Therefore The four words are actually "I am A ____" with the blank being whatever his/her gender is.

Once those four words are said the limitations placed by his/her androgynous nature will be lifted and V will ascend to a godlike status and rule the cosmos from lofty peaks made of gold!


all the rest is moot.:smalltongue:

[Mystic Muse]

bah, y'all got it wrong.

Yasee, V's power is capped by his/her androgyny


Therefore The four words are actually "I am A ____" with the blank being whatever his/her gender is.

Once those four words are said the limitations placed by his/her androgynous nature will be lifted and V will ascend to a godlike status and rule the cosmos from lofty peaks made of gold!


all the rest is moot.:smalltongue:

I seem to recall this being a theory in the older four words threads.

It's just as hilarious now as it was then.

[MoonCat]

bah, y'all got it wrong.

Yasee, V's power is capped by his/her androgyny


Therefore The four words are actually "I am A ____" with the blank being whatever his/her gender is.

Once those four words are said the limitations placed by his/her androgynous nature will be lifted and V will ascend to a godlike status and rule the cosmos from lofty peaks made of gold!


all the rest is moot.:smalltongue:

In a bonus strip: Elan is helping Vaarsuvius by stating random for word phrases.

"I am a woman"

"I am a man"

... "None of your business?"

[LuPuWei]

I recall someone in this forum with "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind" as a signature. I think those four words would also do very well as The Four Words, since V's completely random disintegration of Kubota was a turning point in his character for me.

Of course, word of God = word of God, and I'm not here to debate that.

[Kish]

I recall someone in this forum with "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind" as a signature. I think those four words would also do very well as The Four Words, since V's completely random disintegration of Kubota was a turning point in his character for me.

He didn't say them to a being. He said one of them at Kubota, and the other three at a pile of dust.


Of course, word of God = word of God, and I'm not here to debate that.
Good.

[G-Man Graves]

Yep, he didn't need to do it because he could just have let them die. See also my steamroller metaphor -- I already covered this.

Sure, it's like you were right, except instead of being right, you're wrong. You've completely misinterpretted the comic, and now you're blaming it on the story itself. So if you don't like that arc, it's your own fault.

Also, in regards to your initial comment, you can't "railroad" the characters in a story. They're characters. They exsist to do whatever the author wants.

[Capt Spanner]

I can't remember who suggested it originally, but I'm sure I remember someone suggesting that the four words would be "Hand me the doily."

EDIT:

Found it: from a thread discussing the end of the webcomic:


Malack serves the cake, and Vaarsuvius says, "Is that a doily?" These four words, said for all the wrong reasons, lead him/her to understanding the doily as a source of ultimate cosmic power. With this power, she/he finds and destroys Xykon's phylactery.

<snip>

[John Cribati]

That appears to be an exact reversal of what happened. "I-I must succeed" are the right words -- in what way? A bunch of soul-leaching demons and devils are "the right being" -- really :smallconfused:? At "the right time" -- trapped on a tiny island with the clock ticking on the torment and death of your family is the right time -- really?
"Right" has several definitions.
1.
in accordance with what is good, proper, or just: right conduct.
2.
in conformity with fact, reason, truth, or some standard or principle; correct: the right solution; the right answer.
3.
correct in judgment, opinion, or action.
4.
fitting or appropriate; suitable: to say the right thing at the right time.
5.
most convenient, desirable, or favorable: Omaha is the right location for a meatpacking firm.
6.
of, pertaining to, or located on or near the side of a person or thing that is turned toward the east when the subject is facing north ( opposed to left).
7.
in a satisfactory state; in good order: to put things right.
8.
sound, sane, or normal: to be in one's right mind; She wasn't right in her head when she made the will.
9.
in good health or spirits: I don't feel quite right today.
10.
principal, front, or upper: the right side of cloth.
11.
( often initial capital letter ) of or pertaining to political conservatives or their beliefs.
12.
socially approved, desirable, or influential: to go to the right schools and know the right people.
13.
formed by or with reference to a perpendicular: a right angle.
14.
straight: a right line.
15.
Geometry . having an axis perpendicular to the base: a right cone.
16.
Mathematics . pertaining to an element of a set that has a given property when placed on the right of an element or set of elements of the given set: a right identity.
17.
genuine; authentic: the right owner.

[Jay R]

I think one crucial aspect is that the Oracle has no choice in how the question was phrased. He wasn't asked "Will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power, and if so, how?"

He was asked "How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?"

Let us assume that V will never become the single God of this universe, but that he will at one point have a soul slice that would technically give him more kinds of power, and more total spells, than any other arcane caster. Then what answer can the Oracle give? Only how s/he achieves that soul splice.

The second crucial aspect is what was Vaarsuvius thinking about when s/he made the choice. Was s/he asking which of the two methods in front of him/her (death and resurrection or selling his/her soul) would be more effective for saving Inky and the kids, or which one would be better for V's personal quest for power?

And with no thought balloons, that's ambiguous. If the accent is on "succeed", then s/he did it for the right reasons. (" I ... I must succeed.")But if the accent was on the second "I", then it was about a concern for personal power. ("I ... I must succeed")

And reading that part of the story, we can't tell. The only hints we have are that s/he was totally stressed out and not thinking well, that s/he hadn't been at home with family in a long time, and that the question was phrased the way it was. V's assumption was that s/he would achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power -- the only question was how. And that's where the wrong reasons came from.

[G-Man Graves]

I think we don't even need an emphasis on one word. What does V say immediately after the Dragon leaves?

No. NO. I cannot allow my power to fail me again.

He really doesn't seem to care about his family as much as him personally succeeding.

[Herald Alberich]

It is true that the alternate plan was totally ridiculous and entirely unworkable. Qarr said as much (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) to the fiends, who did not deny it when they had no reason to lie to him. Before they dangled the plan, Vaarsuvius had made the decision to accept the splice to save his family: for the right reasons.

But then they provided an alternative, and gave V no time to consider it rationally. Had V been of sound mind, or had more time to think, he may have realized that the alternate idea was stupid, and accepted the splice, again, for the right reasons. Instead, he succumbed to their temptation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), equating "it was your idea" with "it's your magic", even though it totally wasn't (a point of Xykon's speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)). He believed there was another way of accomplishing the goal, and accepted the splice anyway.

Look at that last point again. Even though the splice was in fact the only way of saving his family, V no longer believed that it was, and took it anyway. For personal gain. So that he did not have to rely on others (or so he thought). The wrong reasons.

(On some level, V knew it, too - look at his face on the two occasions he reaches for the blue orb. The first time, stoic acceptance. The second time - sadness. Didn't stop him, though.)

So why did the fiends plant the alternate idea in his mind, and change his reasons for accepting? *shrug* Because they're Evil fiends, it's what they do. They're jerks like that. Also, had V accepted the deal selflessly, he may have been more inclined to give it up when Inkyrius confronted him about it.

[Boogastreehouse]

Aaaaaand we have a neat encapsulation of why I despise that story arc. V was railroaded by the author into a situation where he was forced to make a certain choice, and then blamed for it.

It was a bit like tying somebody up, tying their finger around the trigger of a gun pointed at somebody else, attaching a cord to their finger, and pulling on the cord so that their finger pulls the trigger, then trying them for murder and expecting everyone else to agree that's reasonable.

Vaarsuvius isn't a real person that the giant can railroad. The Giant just knew that V would react a certain way, because... well,,, he made V in the first place. He may have made V vulnerable to this situation, and I guess you could call it railroading, but that's what all authors do with all of their characters all the time ever.


Someone ties you up and gives you a rocket launcher, then ties up your family and points a steamroller at them, so that it will roll over them feet first. Having the choice between allowing your family to be slowly steamrolled, and firing the rocket launcher to disable it, you are probably 99% likely to fire the rocket launcher. Then, of course, you are blamed for "doing it because of an unreasonable faith in the power of ballistics."

That's what it's like -- a much better analogy, IMO.

If you fired a rocket launcher to save your family, that would be one thing.

But if you fired the rocket launcher not so much to save your family as to prove something to yourself and to keep from failing, that would be another. That's what "the wrong reasons" means.

The exact same action can be taken and, depending on the motivation for that action, it can be good or bad. If you save an old lady from being hit by a bus because you want to save the old lady, that's awesome. If you save an old lady from being hit by a bus because she'll probably give you a reward, and you'll be a hero and hey! there's a cute girl watching, well, yeah, you still saved the old lady, it's just slightly less awesome.

[Dragon Star]

*sigh*

look, what's done is done. it was written the way it was written, and unless someone is going to kill the Giant and take his place, the prophecy was fulfilled.
its not going to come up again. i agree that it wasn't a perfect way to do it, but whatever. and v did get rid of his/her evil side after that, and realized his/her mistakes.
so arguing about it wont do anything.
it's clear that his/her actions were evil, and now s/he is good.

so let it drop.

[The Linker]

Again, debate has its merits. That's why, you know, many schools support debate teams as an extracurricular activity. This isn't about changing the comic -- it's not even necessarily about changing others' opinions, though I suppose that's the desired outcome for most debaters. It's mostly about making sure your 'opponent' is seeing the issue from the right perspective and with all the relevant information.

Non-abusive debate is healthy! No need to quash it. :smallbiggrin:

[Timst]

Also, this might have been covered elsewhere, but why is everyone thinking that the alternate plan would not have worked ? Sure it was a bit complicated and circuitous, but it seems pretty workable to me.

[Mystic Muse]

Also, this might have been covered elsewhere, but why is everyone thinking that the alternate plan would not have worked ? Sure it was a bit complicated and circuitous, but it seems pretty workable to me.

Elan and Durkon were on their way to Greysky city at the time. There was no way Durkon could have used sending to notify V's mentor as the Imp wouldn't have reached Durkon.

[Kish]

Also, this might have been covered elsewhere, but why is everyone thinking that the alternate plan would not have worked ? Sure it was a bit complicated and circuitous, but it seems pretty workable to me.
Do you want them alphebetically? Well, you can't have them alphabetically. However.

1) The IFCC counted on Vaarsuvius not making the distinction between "Lawful" and "robot." If the imp had actually been presented with a plan which involved his death, he would likely have said, "No way, and no I don't care that I said I'd help you!"
2) Resurrection has a ten-minute casting time. Would you like to guess how much would have been left of Vaarsuvius' family in ten minutes?
3) Durkon may, or may not, actually have a scroll of Sending. I do, however, note that after he used up all four Sending spells he'd prepared talking to Roy, he scrapped his plan to Send to Haley, Vaarsuvius and Elan, rather than pulling out a scroll to do it with.
That enough to be going on with?

[MReav]

Someone ties you up and gives you a rocket launcher, then ties up your family and points a steamroller at them, so that it will roll over them feet first. Having the choice between allowing your family to be slowly steamrolled, and firing the rocket launcher to disable it, you are probably 99% likely to fire the rocket launcher. Then, of course, you are blamed for "doing it because of an unreasonable faith in the power of ballistics."

That's what it's like -- a much better analogy, IMO.

You need to remember that V wasn't thinking straight (hadn't slept in months, reeling from several failures, and probably malnourished). If he had more time to think (or was in better health), V would have still accepted the deal, but because he realized the alternative was crap. Expanding your analogy, you are not firing the rocket launcher to save your family, you are firing the rocket launcher because in your sleep-deprived state you hallucinated the bulldozer driver challenging your rocket-firing skills. One is an acceptable way to save your family, the other is inherently selfish.

[Porthos]

I would like to point out something about V's Prophecy and Rich's Writing.

Rich barely talked about V's Prophecy after it was made. It was referenced in all of one or two strips after the initial strip it appeared. All of the speculation and figuring out what the Prophecy implied was done on this (and other) forum(s).

All of the nit picky analyzations, all of the Story Implications, and all of the conclusions were made without the slightest contribution from Rich. No blog or news entires. No interviews. No hints from the commentary*.

Nada.

All Rich had to say on the subject, before the prophecy came to pass, was in that initial comic.

<<<* Well, strictly speaking, there was a hint in the commentary of WaXP that a character would screw up horribly in the next major arc. But it wasn't an out and out direct link to V's Prophecy at the time.>>>

It's just, in this case, Rich intentionally subverted forum goers expectations. He knew full well what type of power/story point people were speculating. He knew full well that people were expecting some sort of climatic story ending event. Even though he tries not to read forum threads, just by seeing the title of threads, plus email feedback, he almost certainly has a very good idea of what the Forum Consensus (or Controversies, if one prefers) is when it comes to what is going to happen in the comic.

And he did absolutely nothing to dissuade people of that notion.

Why?

Well I can't speak for Rich, obviously. But it wouldn't surprise me that he might have wanted to throw a major curveball when it came to one of the Oracle Predictions. So far, most of them have been fairly straightforward. But I think in this case he wanted to have a Subverted Prophecy. Besides saluting Storytelling cliches Conventions, it's just good drama to shake up the audience expectations now and again.

And that, I think, more than anything is the reason why a lot of people are/were upset over V's Prophecy. They had spent so much time on the forums building up Situation X, that when Completely Different Situation Y occurred, they weren't ready for it. They expected V as a God (if not a Nice God) at/near the End of the Story, and instead they got V as a Hubristic Figure Changing the Story Direction Radically.

And thus the nitpicky knives came out.

It's something I've seen time and time again across many different fandoms.

Sure, there are people who griped about how the story was told. And I sympathize with them. No storyteller is perfect, after all (see my gripes over how Rich handled Celia). But I do tend to think that the rather intense (if only representative of a fraction of the fanbase) backlash was over dashed expectations.

[Thanatosia]

Nah, i'm not mad because of failed expectations, I'm just mad cuz in my mind, the prophecy was not fulfilled, yet the Giant plays it off like it was.

How will I obtain X?
You'll obtain X by doing Y
Person obtains X by doing Z, but Y was just kind there when he did Z.

The Oracle might as well have said you'll get the total arcane ultimate power by the sky being blue. Lo and behold, the sky was blue when V gained the power! It being blue had nothing to do with him actually gaining the power, but by god it was... there? SUCESSFUL PROPHECY!!!

[Mystic Muse]

"How will I obtain ultimate arcane power?"

"By saying the right four words, to the right being, at the right time, for all the wrong reasons."

The four words were "I...I must succeed."

The right being was Vaarsuvious.

The right time. Obvious.

The wrong reasons were to prove the superiority of magic. If he truly cared more about his family at that point, he could have said something along the lines of "I must save them" Or "They must be saved."

terrible an idea as the fiend's alternate plan was, it cemented the idea that V had to be the one to do this for his own pride, not because he cared about his family.

[Porthos]

Nah, i'm not mad because of failed expectations, I'm just mad cuz in my mind, the prophecy was not fulfilled, yet the Giant plays it off like it was.

How will I obtain X?
You'll obtain X by doing Y
Person obtains X by doing Z, but Y was just kind there when he did Z.

The Oracle might as well have said you'll get the total arcane ultimate power by the sky being blue. Lo and behold, the sky was blue when V gained the power! It being blue had nothing to do with him actually gaining the power, but by god it was... there? SUCESSFUL PROPHECY!!!

I didn't say everyone. :smallwink:

But let's look at the "I... I must succeed" bit. One disadvantage of a Stick Figure Comic is that it is very hard to denote tone of voice and facial expression. Thus wording will probably be used more to try to denote feelings/motivations than might in other media.

So the hesitancy of "I... I" shows that V is trying to talk himself/give himself that final mental push to accept the deal. Thus V is the right being. He is convincing himself that he has to go through with this plan.

Sure there could have been different Four Words (or Five or Six or Seven). But I think that the choice of "I... I" was a fairly deliberate one.

Not saying it has to work for everyone. But I can see why it was done.

===

As a tangent, I want to expand a bit more on "I... I must succeed". It wasn't "I must save them" or "They can't be killed" or even "I have no choice". It was "I must succeed". That shifts the focus of this situation from an outward one (saving others) to an inward one (I can't allow myself to fail). While the actions might be the same, the intent isn't.

And this is where, I feel, that the whole "for all the wrong reasons" comes in. Let's not forget that "for all the wrong reasons" in many cases is a colloquialism. It doesn't literally mean that every reason you have for doing something is wrong. It just means that the/a major reason why someone does something isn't as good as one might think. In this case, V was certainly motivated to make sure that his family was saved. But he was more motivated that it was Magic, and more specifically his magic that saved them.

V and his guilt over his supposed inadequacy when it came to magic had been pounded into our skulls over the previous 100 strips. And when the admittedly ridiculous alternative deal from the IFCC was presented, he didn't even make as much of a peep saying what a bad plan it was. In fact, again admitting the problems with discerning facial features in a stick figure comic, he looked defeated and crestfallen.

And the very next words out of his mouth after being told that he was really doing this to salvage his pride over magic? "I... I must succeed".

In that statement, he was affirming to himself everything the IFCC had just said about him. And he was absolutely saddened by it. It was that self-realization at that very moment which pushed him over the edge and caused him to accept the deal with full knowledge of what it meant deep down in his soul.

This is how "I... I must succeed" works for both the right being (talking himself into doing this vile deed), and all the wrong reasons (confirming to himself just what type of person he thinks he is).

It's very psychological and subtle, really. Perhaps too much.

...

Which, come to think of it, is probably why Rich hit us over the head with a sledgehammer when it came to V's guilt the previous 100 strips. :smalltongue:

PS:

I would note one thing. The whole "Sell Your Soul" idea was in fact V's in the first place. So to say that he was railroaded into accepting the IFCC's plan is at least a little disingenuous in my eyes. What the IFCC wanted to do is to make sure that V realized just why he was doing this.

With some people that realization might be enough to get them to stop and turn away. But for V, he went through with it anyway. But it was obvious, at least to me, that he needed to talk himself into it. After all, it's one thing to Sell Your Soul if you have deluded yourself into thinking it was a Noble Cause. It's quite another thing to Sell Your Soul if you have been convinced that you are doing it for (at least partially) selfish reasons.

If one doesn't buy the last bit, or if one doesn't buy the fact that V has selfish motivations, then, yeah, it all falls apart. But I think that Rich did adequately set up V's realization that he wasn't as noble as he thought, and the need to talk himself into doing it.

[Jay R]

Let's remember that the beings offering this were evil. They wanted to tempt. They deliberately made V think that there was an alternative, because having V do it for the right reasons doesn't serve as a temptation.

The alternative method might not have worked, but that wasn't its purpose. Its purpose was to make sure V was being self-centered, even when saving his/her family.

[Thanatosia]

The justification that V gained the power *BY* saying the 4 words to himself to psych himself up depends on the 4 words being required for him to touch the blue orb - otherwise, it's just something he happened to do prior to doing the thing that gave him the power.

Do you honestly think, that if for whatever reason, V was silenced and unable to speak the 4 words, that he would have chosen differently, and elected to pick the red orb? There's no way to prove that he would have or wouldn't have... but I just can't make myself believe that not being able to speak the words would have changed his decision.

I guess in the end it is my inability to believe that is why I cannot to accept that story arc as a correctly executed prophecy.

[Morthis]

Heh, the last time I read the forum was before the word of god confirmed the prophecy thing, people argued about it then, even though the combination of "I...I must succeed" and the comic name were pretty obvious, guess some things don't change.

What I really don't understand is the railroad argument mentioned. I mean Rich is the one who writes and created V, how can he railroad a character, when it's his character in the first place? You could say it's bad writing if the character behaves in a way that's out of their norm, but nothing about that situation felt out of the norm for V.

V is my favorite character in this comic, so yeah I hope everything works out alright for him, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to his faults. His belief in the superiority of magic has been well established, and he can be pretty self centered too. Hell, he relies almost exclusively on evocation spells, which is a rather blunt approach to magic. I realize he's an evoker, and no characters in oots are really optimized, but V still uses his magic is a pretty inefficient way. I thought that was the whole point, after having his ultimate arcane power and trying a little solo stint, he failed miserably and learns the value of teamwork. The "new" V is seen casting more support oriented spells, instead of almost exclusively relying on blasting spells.


The justification that V gained the power *BY* saying the 4 words to himself to psych himself up depends on the 4 words being required for him to touch the blue orb - otherwise, it's just something he happened to do prior to doing the thing that gave him the power.

Do you honestly think, that if for whatever reason, V was silenced and unable to speak the 4 words, that he would have chosen differently, and elected to pick the red orb? There's no way to prove that he would have or wouldn't have... but I just can't make myself believe that not being able to speak the words would have changed his decision.

I guess in the end it is my inability to believe that is why I cannot to accept that story arc as a correctly executed prophecy.

This largely seems like semantics. I mean if V had not used dimensional anchor the imp would have just escaped and he wouldn't have had the opportunity either. Touching the orbs didn't give V ultimate power either, the fiends granting the soul splice after V touched the blue orb did. I mean you could come up with a dozen different arguments here, and they all just strike me as nitpicking.

[theNater]

The justification that V gained the power *BY* saying the 4 words to himself to psych himself up depends on the 4 words being required for him to touch the blue orb - otherwise, it's just something he happened to do prior to doing the thing that gave him the power.

Do you honestly think, that if for whatever reason, V was silenced and unable to speak the 4 words, that he would have chosen differently, and elected to pick the red orb? There's no way to prove that he would have or wouldn't have... but I just can't make myself believe that not being able to speak the words would have changed his decision.

I guess in the end it is my inability to believe that is why I cannot to accept that story arc as a correctly executed prophecy.
I think that if V had been silenced and unable to speak, the oracle would have given a different answer. Something like "by making the right decision at the right time for all the wrong reasons", maybe.

The oracle identified a direct, immediate, causal step in V's acquisition of power. The fact that the causal steps would have been different in a different situation is irrelevant, because a different situation didn't occur.

[Thanatosia]

This largely seems like semantics. I mean if V had not used dimensional anchor the imp would have just escaped and he wouldn't have had the opportunity either. Touching the orbs didn't give V ultimate power either, the fiends granting the soul splice after V touched the blue orb did. I mean you could come up with a dozen different arguments here, and they all just strike me as nitpicking.
If the prophecy was that V would gain the ultimate power by abandoning his friends, it would have been valid

If the prophecy was that V would gain the ultimate power by touching the blue orb, it would have been valid

If the prophecy was that V would gain the ultimate power by casting Dimensional Achor on an imp, the prophecy would have been valid

If the Prophecy was that V would gain the ultimate power by Fiends, the prophecy would have been valid.

Yes... you can come up with MANY different things that had to happen for the power to be obtained, and any of them could have made for a valid prophecy.... but the 4 Words are NOT one of those many things in my opinion, and yet the prophecy said the 4 words would be the means by which the power would be obtained, not any of those other things that DID have a demonstrable cause-effect chain relationship to the power being obtained... and thats what makes it a failure and not mere semantic nitpicking IMO.

[Thanatosia]

I think that if V had been silenced and unable to speak, the oracle would have given a different answer. Something like "by making the right decision at the right time for all the wrong reasons", maybe.

The oracle identified a direct, immediate, causal step in V's acquisition of power. The fact that the causal steps would have been different in a different situation is irrelevant, because a different situation didn't occur.
My point is I don't see it as a causal step. It's just something he did. If I yawn while opening a door, I dont consider the yawning a causal step in the process towards opening the door, its just something I did unrelated to it.

The hypothetical silence was not to propose an alternate causal chain to obtaining the power, but to illustrate that it was never a link in the causal chain in the first place.

[Kish]

My point is I don't see it as a causal step. It's just something he did. If I yawn while opening a door, I dont consider the yawning a causal step in the process towards opening the door, its just something I did unrelated to it.
If you think Vaarsuvius telling himself/herself "I...I must succeed," was unrelated to his/her decision to accept the offer, then you're missing the entire point of the words, so no wonder you don't see them as having a point.

[Marillion]

The point isn't whether or not Varsuvius said the words aloud. If it had been a thought-bubble saying the same thing, it wouldn't have mattered. The point is, he said them at all. If he had chosen not to engage in that dialogue, if he had chosen not to affirm himself as the selfish, power-hungry V he was, (nice analysis Porthos!) he may have refused the splice, or at least reexamined his motives.

[Gitman00]

If you think Vaarsuvius telling himself/herself "I...I must succeed," was unrelated to his/her decision to accept the offer, then you're missing the entire point of the words, so no wonder you don't see them as having a point.

QFT. See also: Porthos' dissertation a few posts earlier. Those four words were Vaarsuvius convincing him/herself to take the deal. They were the outward manifestation of an intense struggle Vaarsuvius was having with him/herself. To complain that the words themselves don't contain any inherent power is just being pedantic. The fact is, with those words, V made his/her decision. Without that decision, the soul splice never happens.

[theNater]

My point is I don't see it as a causal step. It's just something he did. If I yawn while opening a door, I dont consider the yawning a causal step in the process towards opening the door, its just something I did unrelated to it.
Think of it more like, instead of yawning, you say to yourself "I need to get the newspaper", then head over to the door and open it.

[Sholos]

Yes... you can come up with MANY different things that had to happen for the power to be obtained, and any of them could have made for a valid prophecy.... but the 4 Words are NOT one of those many things in my opinion, and yet the prophecy said the 4 words would be the means by which the power would be obtained, not any of those other things that DID have a demonstrable cause-effect chain relationship to the power being obtained... and thats what makes it a failure and not mere semantic nitpicking IMO.

Along with the other things that people have said, you have apparently forgotten that your opinion of V's mental state at the time really doesn't matter. The Giant's opinion of V's mental state is the only one that matters, and if the Giant said that the words were required, then the words were required. His opinion kind of overrules yours, and to argue that your interpretation of the character is more valid than the creator's is just silly.

[LuPuWei]

He didn't say them to a being. He said one of them at Kubota, and the other three at a pile of dust.


Semantics.

[Kish]

Semantics.
You can argue anything "could have been the words" if you wave away the reasons they couldn't have been.

Regardless, they weren't the words.

[Porthos]

Think of it more like, instead of yawning, you say to yourself "I need to get the newspaper", then head over to the door and open it.

And, let's face it, if The Oracle had said:

"By Touching Your Blue Ball", it would have led to far less interesting discussions.

...

Well the ones that weren't destined to be zapped by the mods, that is. :smalltongue:


EDIT:

NOTE: While some might quibble about the word "Your" (though since it was offered to him it can work if one squints enough), I figured "His" or "Their" would have been even worse. :smalltongue:

[Jay R]

One idea just crossed my mind. The evil beings are trying to corrupt the elf; that much is certain. So suppose Vaarsuvius had said, "I must sacrifice myself to save others." This would not be a corrupting influence, and would therefore fail in the primary goal of temptation.

And in fact, when V was about to do it for an ennobling reason ("I must, as a parent, make this deep sacrifice and accept your accursed bargain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)"), the three tempters specifically offered another possibility, to make V have to choose it for selfish, power-driven reasons. If this had failed, and V had still said, "I can't be sure that would work, so I must still, as a parent, make this deep sacrifice and accept your accursed bargain"...

Would they have given V the power anyway?

If they would have continued to try to find a way to change V's thinking, as they already had the first time s/he said it, then s/he gained that power by saying those four words.

[Forum Explorer]

One idea just crossed my mind. The evil beings are trying to corrupt the elf; that much is certain. So suppose Vaarsuvius had said, "I must sacrifice myself to save others." This would not be a corrupting influence, and would therefore fail in the primary goal of temptation.

And in fact, when V was about to do it for an ennobling reason ("I must, as a parent, make this deep sacrifice and accept your accursed bargain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)"), the three tempters specifically offered another possibility, to make V have to choose it for selfish, power-driven reasons. If this had failed, and V had still said, "I can't be sure that would work, so I must still, as a parent, make this deep sacrifice and accept your accursed bargain"...

Would they have given V the power anyway?

If they would have continued to try to find a way to change V's thinking, as they already had the first time s/he said it, then s/he gained that power by saying those four words.

They still would have given her the power because V's soul was just a nice bargin. They more wanted Xykon to get moving again.

[LuPuWei]

You can argue anything "could have been the words" if you wave away the reasons they couldn't have been.

Regardless, they weren't the words.

Agreed that they weren't the words.

However talked at and talked to don't make that much of a difference to me (unless there's some underlying D&D rule that specifically differentiates).

Otherwise, they were said to the right person (someone who deserved a disintegration) at the right time (well, he certainly deserved a disintegration right about then) for all the wrong reasons (well, its not like V knew that Kubota needed a disintegration, or what a Kubota even was for that matter) He ended a life because it got in his way, which is one of the defining traits of Evil in most fictional works.

As I told you my reasons were more because of how they seemed to signify the turning point in Vs character.

At any rate, again, word of God=word of God, and I don't really care about getting my point across right now. However, I do feel that more experienced forum-goers need to go a little easier on n00bs like us- we haven't been through the 500 prior discussions of the same topic, and for some of us the stories and old plotlines are still kinda fresh and we'd like to discuss them. Examples of where Word of God already exist is rather helpful, but there's no need to go for the jugular in this kind of a discussion.