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Talesin
2011-02-03, 08:04 AM
Hi there playground! My first post here so I hope i'm in the right place.

I've recently hit level 4 with my fighter and taken up the agile shield figher feat (-2 to MH and OH attacks if you're weilding a shield) and am looking forward to getting my shield into the face of some unexpecting (or expecting, not really limiting myself by this) enemies.

However I have some questions regarding shields. I've had a bit of a read around, including the shield bashing guide but unless i've skipped over it I don't believe my question has been answered.

I understand bashing and shield spikes stack so I can get 2d6 damage from my shield bash if I use a large shield with the spikes and the enchant but how much does this bashing cost?

We've had a bit of a debate about it, my DM and I, and honestly we're not sure, so rather than throw our numbers at you i'd like to get a fresh perspective before I say what we believe. Our main query is do I have to enchant the shield as a weapon in order to get the bashing enchant, or do I enchant it as a shield (so getting +1 to AC rather than to hit)? Tied into this, am I paying for this to be a masterwork weapon or shield/armour?

Additionally, when it comes to shield spikes, if I make them masterwork, do I get the bonus to hit that would come with a masterwork weapon? Then if/when I enchant these spikes, do they add bonuses to hit/damage? Can they then be enchanted with other enchantments (defending/flaming etc) or can they only be made +3etc?

Sorry for the large number of questions, i've been having a read around but can't seem to get an answer so they've been building up in my head.

Thanks,

Talesin

Darrin
2011-02-03, 09:43 AM
I understand bashing and shield spikes stack so I can get 2d6 damage from my shield bash if I use a large shield with the spikes and the enchant but how much does this bashing cost?


Bashing is a shield enhancement, not a weapon enhancement, so it's actually cheaper. You need at least a shield +1 to get started, and Bashing adds +1 on top of that, so you need to pay for at least a shield +2: +4000 GP on top of the cost of a masterwork heavy shield (157 GP). Your total AC bonus is +3 (+2 for a heavy shield, +1 enhancement bonus). The additional +1 enhancement bonus for Bashing isn't added to your AC.



Our main query is do I have to enchant the shield as a weapon in order to get the bashing enchant, or do I enchant it as a shield (so getting +1 to AC rather than to hit)? Tied into this, am I paying for this to be a masterwork weapon or shield/armour?
Additionally, when it comes to shield spikes, if I make them masterwork, do I get the bonus to hit that would come with a masterwork weapon? Then if/when I enchant these spikes, do they add bonuses to hit/damage?


You can enchant a shield as a weapon, but you have to pay for it separately. The +1 enhancement bonus as a shield doesn't make it count as a magic weapon for the purposes of shield-bashing. In general, enchanting weapons costs about double what you'd pay for an armor/shield:

+50 GP, add shield spikes
+300 GP, masterwork shield spikes
+2000 GP, shield spikes +1

Masterwork weapons have a +1 enhancement bonus to attacks. When you enchant them as a +1 weapon, the +1 enhancement bonus from being magical doesn't stack with the +1 enhancement bonus for being masterwork (the +1 bonus on attack/damage from the Bashing property doesn't stack, either). However, a magic weapon gets that +1 enhancement bonus on both attack and damage.



Can they then be enchanted with other enchantments (defending/flaming etc) or can they only be made +3etc?


Yes, you can add weapon enhancements to your shield, you just pay for your armor/shield enhancements and weapon enhancements separately. To add the Flaming property to your Bashing Heavy Spiked Shield +1, you calculate it like any other magic weapon. You have to pay for the first +1 enhancement (2000 GP) before you can add any other weapon properties. Assuming you want Flaming Shield Spikes +1:

+50 GP, shield spikes
+300 GP, masterwork shield spikes
+8000 GP, +2 enhancement bonus (+1 to start with, +1 for Flaming)

or:

+50 GP, shield spikes
+300 GP, masterwork shield spikes
+2000 GP, shield spikes +1
+6000 GP, Flaming property, +1 enhancement (difference between a +2 enhancement and a +1 enhancement, or 8000 GP - 2000 GP = 6000 GP)

manyslayer
2011-02-03, 10:16 AM
I understand bashing and shield spikes stack so I can get 2d6 damage from my shield bash if I use a large shield with the spikes and the enchant but how much does this bashing cost?

Shield spikes do not stack with shield damage. They increase the damage by one step and make it a martial piercing weapon. This makes a heavy shield for a medium creature go from 1d4 to 1d6 damage (not 2d6).


We've had a bit of a debate about it, my DM and I, and honestly we're not sure, so rather than throw our numbers at you i'd like to get a fresh perspective before I say what we believe. Our main query is do I have to enchant the shield as a weapon in order to get the bashing enchant, or do I enchant it as a shield (so getting +1 to AC rather than to hit)? Tied into this, am I paying for this to be a masterwork weapon or shield/armour?

Darrin answered about the bashing quality, but to point out, you have to have the shield be masterwork to add an armor/shield enchantment (150 gp). Also, you have to have the spikes be masterwork if you want to enchant them (300gp).

Also, check this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630)on shield useage.

Talesin
2011-02-03, 10:54 AM
Shield spikes do not stack with shield damage. They increase the damage by one step and make it a martial piercing weapon. This makes a heavy shield for a medium creature go from 1d4 to 1d6 damage (not 2d6).

The 2d6 thing is with bashing as well, so you get a 3fold increase in the shield's size. 1 from spikes and 2 from bashing, to move the damage from
1d4 -> 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 2d6 (from the builds portion of person man's guide). Or am I mistaken when it comes to this?

How do masterwork/enchanted shield spikes work in terms of hit and damage then? By enchanting the shield spikes as masterwork i'm sensing that's not going to give me the +1 to hit with shield bash. So is the only purpose in making them masterwork is that they can then be enchanted?

If so, then when you enchant the shield spikes +1, does this do nothing to the +hit portion of shield bash and only effect the damage or am I completely misreading this?

I apologize for the fairly nooby questions but i'm trying to get my head around this as a whole concept.

Darrin
2011-02-03, 10:55 AM
Shield spikes do not stack with shield damage. They increase the damage by one step and make it a martial piercing weapon. This makes a heavy shield for a medium creature go from 1d4 to 1d6 damage (not 2d6).


Apparently according to the Main FAQ, adding the Bashing property gives you another two effective size increases: 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 2d6.

Adding Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC p. 139) would get you up to 3d6. Heavy weapon property (Magic of Faerun p. 179) could get you up to 4d6.


How do masterwork/enchanted shield spikes work in terms of hit and damage then? By enchanting the shield spikes as masterwork i'm sensing that's not going to give me the +1 to hit with shield bash. So is the only purpose in making them masterwork is that they can then be enchanted?


The key sentence in the Bashing ability:

"The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash."

This could be either a +1 enhancement bonus (in which case it does not stack with the Masterwork +1 or a magic weapon +1 bonus), or an untyped bonus, which would stack. Actually, I'm not so sure that's a very good interpretation... per the Bashing property, the shield spikes are *not* magical weapons yet, you just get to treat them that way for attack/damage and bypassing DR X/magic. To make the shield spikes an actual magic weapon, you still need to pay +2000 GP. This allows you to enchant the spikes with additional weapon properties.

I think the designer's intention is fairly clear, though: this allows the +1 enhancement bonus *as a shield* to be used for attack/damage on shield bash attacks. When not bashing, though, they're still just ordinary spikes.

Do you have access to the Magic Item Compendium? Adding a Lesser Crystal of Energy Assault is usually cheaper (3000 GP) than adding the Flaming property. Wand Chamber (+100 GP, Dungeonscape p. 34) and a wand of blades of fire (750 GP, Spell Compendium) could also work.



If so, then when you enchant the shield spikes +1, does this do nothing to the +hit portion of shield bash and only effect the damage or am I completely misreading this?


Yes, that's the effect of enchanting any masterwork weapon as a +1 weapon. There are some other benefits: you can now bypass DR X/magic, it can glow as a light source, and magic items get better saving throws than non-magical objects.