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Triskavanski
2011-02-03, 11:36 AM
What is a class out there that focuses primary on debuffing?

I'm looking for something to play a nezumi with.

Keld Denar
2011-02-03, 11:43 AM
Debuffing what? Like, taking away actions from opponents? Wizard, probably a BC oriented Conjourer does it best. If you're talking about reducing opponents saves radically so that they are vulnerable to other caster's offensive spells, you'd probably do well with a Hexblade/Binder/Blackguard, combining Hex and Dark Companion (PHBII) with Aura of Dispair, and then binding Foculor for Aura of Sadness. Thats a total of -6 on saves before the Hex, and -8 if the Hex hits.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-02-03, 11:44 AM
A Necromancy specalist wizard can be a pretty nasty debuffer. Ray of Enfeeblement, Enervation, the Shivering Touch line ect...A Necro wizard may suck an animating an undead army but they can do the debuffing thing VERY well. However, if you don't want to play a wizard then the Hexblade is a debuff-focused class but also kinda sucks power-level wise. However, if you don't mind playing a low tier class and/or are in a low OP game then the hexblade fits what your looking for quite well.

However, one of the best debuff classes happens to be a pathfinder class called the witch. Witches can make VERY VERY potient debuffers with their curses and such. The only downside to them is that they are a pathfinder only class and you asked for 3.5e as appose to a 3.5e pathfinder blend so unless your DM is allowing pathfinder exclusive content then the Witch may not be an option avalivble to you.

[EDIT]: Uchiha'ed(As all other ninjas kneel before the Uchiha and their broken magical HAXX eyes of doom.) on the Hexblade thing.

Greenish
2011-02-03, 11:49 AM
Bard has some very nifty debuffing options in various splats, especially if you can get Intimidate as a class skill.

Doomspeak!

Triskavanski
2011-02-03, 11:54 AM
Yeah. 3.5 pathfinder blend isn't allowed.

Basically our party is composed of a bard, truenamer, druid, a potential alchemist and then my totemist and a DMPC

The totemist and DMPC joined at the same time and appear to move as a group which i find a great excuse to switch my character as the totemist deals far too much more damage than the rest of the party, resulting in the DM needing to put in creatures with more and more hp, and possibly even more damage.

Course that results in creatures being unkillable unless my totemist is killing them.

So I want to go along the same powerscale as the rest of the party. but focus on debuff instead of buffing.

Hexblade seemed interesting until I found you have very heavy limits on hexes. (Thought they were sort of like the hexblades spells)

Warlock is another I'm looking at, even though the -2 cha will reduce my DC a bit, the CON will help later if I wanted to go hellfire.

Wizard might be interesting in that I could go down the path of a blood mage as I'll have greater con ability.

I'm pretty much allowed to use any varient, any 3.x book, or even the dragon... as long as it isn't stupid powerful. (Like being able to attack 4 times a standard action at will)

Greenish
2011-02-03, 12:03 PM
A good debuffer wizard might also cause troubles power-wise, though it's somewhat less vulnerable to such concerns as a play style.

Hexblade is cool but not very strong, so it might be what the doctor ordered. Warlock is a fun class, too.

Amphetryon
2011-02-03, 12:04 PM
Decent-to-good debuffing options include:


Hexblade, particularly with the Dark Companion ACF.
Dread Necromancer.
Binder.
Swordsage focused on Shadow Hand maneuvers.
Warlock.
Cleric with a particular focus on the right spells.
Anything already listed by others that I didn't duplicate on this list.
Samurai, though that's a hard road. See ShneekeytheLost's sig.
Paladin of Tyranny, at least for a 3 level dip. Pairs will with Samurai, Hexblade, and the Blackguard PrC.

quiet1mi
2011-02-03, 12:04 PM
A solid Debuff class, arguably all their good at, is the Hexblade (online fix), just look up hexblade online fix...

Debuffed:
Sickened: The character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Shaken: A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.

Cursed: The character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Dark Companion: The character takes a –2 penalty on saving throws, and AC.
End result is:

Saves: -8
Skill Checks: -6
Ability Checks: -6
Attack Rolls: -6
Damage Rolls: -4
Ac: -2

Do not forget that Initiative is an ability check, debuffing them would lower their initiative.

Picking up Imperious Command takes enemies that are not immune to fear out of the fight completely....

Or you could pick up doomspeak as a Bard... I am not sure if the Doomspeak could stack with the Hexblade... if it can, I know what I am building later today...

With Doom Speak:
Saves: -18
Skill Checks: -16
Ability Checks: -16
Attack Rolls: -16
Damage Rolls: -14
Ac: -2

I cast charm person, DC is effectively: 3+1+10+18 (32)

Tokuhara
2011-02-03, 12:10 PM
Decent-to-good debuffing options include:


Hexblade, particularly with the Dark Companion ACF.
Dread Necromancer.
Binder.
Swordsage focused on Shadow Hand maneuvers.
Warlock.
Cleric with a particular focus on the right spells.
Anything already listed by others that I didn't duplicate on this list.
Samurai, though that's a hard road. See ShneekeytheLost's sig.


I suggest actually Samurai/Dark Companion Hexblade/Blackguard. I realise samurai is crap, but its potent debuff can allow for easy combat, then tandemize with DC Hexblade and Blackguard, maybe toss a level or two of Ronin and you start to cause serious damage

Greenish
2011-02-03, 12:18 PM
I realise samurai is crap, but its potent debuff can allow for easy combatIntimidate (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) can be built to be rather powerful, true, but you need quite a few levels to gain any benefits to it from samurai (6th level: +4 to Intimidate, 10th level: Mass Staredown).

Gullintanni
2011-02-03, 12:23 PM
I've always enjoyed Clerics with the Divine Magician ACF. This gives you access to most of the great Wiz/Sorc debuffs, and great party support abilities. Make the enemy party worse while making you own party better at what they do.

Elric VIII
2011-02-03, 12:56 PM
Debuffing what? Like, taking away actions from opponents? Wizard, probably a BC oriented Conjourer does it best. If you're talking about reducing opponents saves radically so that they are vulnerable to other caster's offensive spells, you'd probably do well with a Hexblade/Binder/Blackguard, combining Hex and Dark Companion (PHBII) with Aura of Dispair, and then binding Foculor for Aura of Sadness. Thats a total of -6 on saves before the Hex, and -8 if the Hex hits.

I'm actually using this on a cohort and it's amazing. Doesn't steal the spotlight and has a subtle but important effect on combat.

grimbold
2011-02-03, 01:05 PM
any class with a vampire race ;)
better still a necromancer vampire

Triskavanski
2011-02-03, 02:59 PM
I'm thinking more and more that either a warlock or bloodmage would be best.

While the bard and intimidation stuff sound great, I kinda need something that could be early on as a debuffer (level 2 or 3) and is a bit less reliant on cha doing everything for the class.

The bloodmage one, I could take some of the blood casting feats from the Feats book, that boost my spells effectiveness.

Was looking into doing diseases and such like some of the nezumi from champions of kamigawa block of magic.


What feats exist that can replace toughness?

Keld Denar
2011-02-03, 03:11 PM
Intimidation is available at 1st level, especially with the Dreadful Wrath feat (PGtF). If you have at least a 16 Cha, thats a +7 check. The DC to intimidate most CR 1-2 foes is gonna be about 11-12 unless they are like, a cleric or druid or other high wisdom class. Thats around a 75% sucess rate.

If you use the Mike Mearls Hexblade fix, you'll also have more hexes/day at level 1. That combined with Dreadful Wrath could get you a -4 saves at level 1 a few times per day. Dark Companion comes online at level 4, and then Aura of Sadness at level 7.

Never heard of Bloodmage. Is that like a bloodninja? (I put on my robe and wizard hat!)

Cancer Mage from BoVD isn't a caster, despite the name. You do get to carry diseases around, though, and can inflict them on people. Not really useful in combat though, as incubation times are kinda long. Hexblade would be a decent leadin to Cancer Mage, as the saves for diseases tend to be low, debuffing saves becomes necessary. Just don't abuse Festering Anger or Vile Rigidity, or your DM might bludgeon you.

Triskavanski
2011-02-03, 03:18 PM
Blood Magus actually is the real name of the PRC.

The Feats Book increases the whole blood thing, with feats that eat up your con and hp to cast spells for extra power. (Sac 5hp per level of spell +metamagics to not use the slot.)


Any feats that replace toughness with something a little more useful?


If, not I'll look for something other than blood magi, as I've found this feat. Just need to get a bunch of fortsave spells.

POX MAGIC [GENERAL]
Your magic is plagued with a taint that cannot be
adequately defined. Sagescall the inability to draw purely
from magicalley lines poxmagic.
Prerequisite: Arcane spellcaster 1st+ level.
Benefit: Your magic does not tap purely into the ley
lines of eldritch magic. As a result, your spells have a foul
and malevolent taint. The term among sagesis pox magic
and it is a terrible curse.
First, increase the saveDC of your spells by +1. Second,
spells that require the target to make a Fortitude savehave
an additional effect. Every time acreature fails a Fortitude
saveasa result of pox magic, the target suffers 1 point of
temporary Constitution damage.Lastly, pox magic is hard
to identify and the DC for Spellcraft checks to identify
your spells is increased by +5.
The drawback to pox magic is that it is difficult to learn
and acquire new spells. Whenever you advance in a level
that would allow you to learn a new spell, make a
Willpower save(DC 15+ spell level) for each chosen spell.
Failure indicates the DM chooses the spell for you
instead.
Special: This feat can only be chosen at 1st level

Triskavanski
2011-02-03, 06:31 PM
So I'm thinking Wizard, focused into necromancy.. unless I can find a better class to take use of that feat.

Psyren
2011-02-03, 07:53 PM
Sadly, the two classes that would have been fantastic at debuffing (Shadowcasters and Truenamers) ended up tripping over themselves in execution. But if you're able to use Kyeudo or Ari's fixes you'll have something with a lot more flavor and decent power level to use.

There's also that "caster Binder" floating around here, that uses Hexes and Vestiges, in the Homebrew section. I forget what it's called though, but it looked interesting.

Thurbane
2011-02-03, 08:25 PM
There's also that "caster Binder" floating around here, that uses Hexes and Vestiges, in the Homebrew section. I forget what it's called though, but it looked interesting.
Along those lines, a Binder/Sorcerer(or Wiz)/Anima Mage can be a potent debuffer, with the right vestige and spell selections. You only need 1 level of Binder to get in (or none, if you want to cheese it up) to enter AM, so you can still get CL 19 easily.

I'm personally quite fond of Binder/Sorc/AM/Fiend Blooded...

Psyren
2011-02-03, 08:42 PM
Better yet, Cleric (with the Anima Mage adaptation that makes it divine, ToM pg. 53.) then you can tack on Tenebrous Apostate for more bindy-casty, and end up with max level spells and vestiges both.

Cloistered Cleric/Binder/Anima Priest/Tenebrous Apostate = the sleeper heretic

Triskavanski
2011-02-03, 11:57 PM
Well someone showed me the poison spell feat. Along with Pox magic.. that is some dangerous spellcasting there.

My stat rolls are..
STR 18, DEX 15, CON 17, INT 18, WIS 11, CHA 14
... and due to the nature of the grid system I can't just swap them around.

So I was going down wizard and to focus in necromancy. Course that just gives me another spell per day... not increase my dcs..

Anyone know where a bunch of variants for wizards is besides the unearthed arcana?

I think I might take a flaw to drop familiar for a feat (Would rather take a feat at level 3 to get one that matches my caster level anyways), and then something else. But I never really use scribe scroll.

Triskavanski
2011-02-04, 03:09 PM
I've got most of my spells selected.

Deaths call - AoE fortsave
Chill touch - 1d6, then save or lose str. Also has effects against undead.
RoE - lose str
Rot of Ages - Become sickened
Parching touch - lose con, hp and become deydrated.

I've still got three spells left I'm looking for. One of which was a disembodied hand spell I found once, and have been trying to find again.

My banned schools are evo, illusion and enchantment.

FMArthur
2011-02-04, 08:39 PM
Do not forget that Initiative is an ability check, debuffing them would lower their initiative.

I'm pretty sure this only applies if you do it before they roll their initiative at all. A combatant's initiative count itself is a separate entity from the ability check or the dexterity score that created it, so only things that say they mess with combatants' initiative or initiative count will actually affect it, regardless of new effects that come into play regarding initiative checks after they have already been rolled.

Amphetryon
2011-02-04, 09:47 PM
I'm pretty sure this only applies if you do it before they roll their initiative at all. A combatants initiative count itself is a separate entity from the ability check or the dexterity score that created it, so only things that say they mess with combatants' initiative or initiative count will actually affect it, regardless of new effects that come into play regarding initiative checks after they have already been rolled.

It can get brutal if you're using the variant where Initiative is rerolled every round, though.

FMArthur
2011-02-04, 10:52 PM
Wow, that seems pretty neat for computer-generated initiative although a horrible pain for normal play. It would average-out Initiative for extreme rolls and give slow characters a few blips of sudden action.

I am officially interested in running this for my games. But how....

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-04, 11:19 PM
Intimidate (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) can be built to be rather powerful, true, but you need quite a few levels to gain any benefits to it from samurai (6th level: +4 to Intimidate, 10th level: Mass Staredown).
Zhentarim Fighter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) does literally everything better than the CW Samurai, and significantly earlier to boot.

Anyway, obvious answer is Wizard, as their debuffs tend to be of the nature of "either you save against this or you are so horribly crippled that you will be comically unable to defend yourself". Start with Sleep and Charm Person, move through Web and Glitterdust and Hold Person to goodies like Phantasmal Killer and Flesh to Stone and Finger of Death. As has been pointed out, though, this style of Wizard is...rather strong*.

I'd go with Hexblade, although know that the class is on the weak side. Dark Companion ACF is mandatory for not sucking horribly.

*Understatement

Amphetryon
2011-02-04, 11:20 PM
Wow, that seems pretty neat for computer-generated initiative although a horrible pain for normal play. It would average-out Initiative for extreme rolls and give slow characters a few blips of sudden action.

I am officially interested in running this for my games. But how....

We're off on a tangent here, but I'll say from experience that it changes the value of Improved Initiative a bit.

Triskavanski
2011-02-05, 02:57 AM
Zhentarim Fighter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) does literally everything better than the CW Samurai, and significantly earlier to boot.

Anyway, obvious answer is Wizard, as their debuffs tend to be of the nature of "either you save against this or you are so horribly crippled that you will be comically unable to defend yourself". Start with Sleep and Charm Person, move through Web and Glitterdust and Hold Person to goodies like Phantasmal Killer and Flesh to Stone and Finger of Death. As has been pointed out, though, this style of Wizard is...rather strong*.

I'd go with Hexblade, although know that the class is on the weak side. Dark Companion ACF is mandatory for not sucking horribly.

*Understatement


Well I banned Enchantment Evocation and Illusion, so quite a bit of spells there aren't opened to me. I need fort saves more anyways.

Once I can find it, I was thinking of taking the PRC that focuses even heavier on your chosen school of magic.