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wayfare
2011-02-03, 11:47 AM
*(I guess Factotums get it too :)

After looking at the fighters rather meager skill list, I began wondering why there was no skill that helped the fighter do fighter things. Hence, I've created the Combat Mastery skill!

Combat Mastery
Strength
Trained Only
Effect: When making or resisting combat maneuvers such as Trip, Bull Rush, Disarm, or Feint, you can substitute your Ranks in Combat Mastery for your normal modifiers (including size modifiers).
Additionally, every rank in Combat Mastery grants you a combat applicable enhancement:

1: +1 bonus to initiative rolls
2: +1 bonus to AC or Reflex Saves
3: +4 hp
4: +1 damage with weapon attacks
5: +1 to attack rolls
6: Additional +1 bonus to initiative rolls (+2 total)
7: Additional +1 bonus to AC or Reflex Saves (+2 total)
8: Additional +4 hp (+8 total)
9: Additional +1 damage with weapon attacks (+2 total)
10: Additional +1 to attack rolls (+2 total)
11: Additional +1 bonus to initiative rolls (+3 total)
12: Additional +1 bonus to AC or Reflex Saves (+3 total)
13: Additional +4 hp (+12 total)
14: Additional +1 damage with weapon attacks (+3 total)
15: Additional +1 to attack rolls (+3 total)
16: Additional +1 bonus to initiative rolls (+4 total)
17: Additional +1 bonus to AC or Reflex Saves (+4 total)
18: Additional +4 hp (+16 total)
19: Additional +1 damage with weapon attacks (+4 total)
20: Additional +1 to attack rolls (+4 total)
21: Additional +1 bonus to initiative rolls (+5 total)
22: Additional +1 bonus to AC or Reflex Saves (+5 total)
23: Additional +4 hp (+20 total)

Thoughts?

Mulletmanalive
2011-02-03, 12:04 PM
My immediate thought is actually "well, there goes those cross class spot ranks"

It' a nice idea but if it"s exclusive, there's no reason not to max it, which means that it should either be universal as a skill or just grafted onto the fighter's chassis

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-02-03, 12:07 PM
Yay skill tax.

This isn't really a good idea. Fighters get few enough skill points as it is, and this skill offers distinct mechanical benefits...and thus becomes all but required to get everything out of the Fighter class. That means fewer skills to spend on fun, interesting, character-defining things.

Further, this skill adds numbers to other numbers, which is, quite frankly, one of the most boring things you can get in D&D. If it could instead be used to do cool things in combat, you might be on to something...but, as it is, it's boring and unoriginal, while simultaneously being good enough that no fighter will put his few skill points in anything else, for fear of being incredibly sub-par.

It's an interesting idea though...if you could flesh this out to be a more versatile, more original system (give it some new tricks and stuff), this could work well.

wayfare
2011-02-03, 12:25 PM
Yay skill tax.

This isn't really a good idea. Fighters get few enough skill points as it is, and this skill offers distinct mechanical benefits...and thus becomes all but required to get everything out of the Fighter class. That means fewer skills to spend on fun, interesting, character-defining things.

Further, this skill adds numbers to other numbers, which is, quite frankly, one of the most boring things you can get in D&D. If it could instead be used to do cool things in combat, you might be on to something...but, as it is, it's boring and unoriginal, while simultaneously being good enough that no fighter will put his few skill points in anything else, for fear of being incredibly sub-par.

It's an interesting idea though...if you could flesh this out to be a more versatile, more original system (give it some new tricks and stuff), this could work well.

My worry when it comes to granting special abilities in combat is the all-too-common "why bother, ToB does it better anyway." I thought the primary aspect of the skill (sub to get better at trip, bullrush) was a pretty substantial bonus...though i can see how it might not work out that way if you already have ways of boosting your size.

As for the "fun' character defining things" unless your fighter is a greco-roman athelete, all of your defining characteristics are going to have to be cross-class anyway.

wayfare
2011-02-03, 12:58 PM
As an alternative to number bonuses, what features might work as a combat related skill.

lesser_minion
2011-02-03, 07:46 PM
My worry when it comes to granting special abilities in combat is the all-too-common "why bother, ToB does it better anyway."

Tome of Battle is good, but not perfect, and it's nice to have homebrew that doesn't require or assume that you have access to any given supplement. The three core books are meant to be enough to play the game, after all.

Hipen3
2011-02-03, 08:22 PM
I've haven't exactly studied the fighter stats or anything related but it sounds pretty useless to me. One question, why do fighters need this skill?

lesser_minion
2011-02-03, 09:19 PM
I've haven't exactly studied the fighter stats or anything related but it sounds pretty useless to me. One question, why do fighters need this skill?

It allows you to use special attacks such as trip against opponents who are larger than you.

ericgrau
2011-02-04, 10:04 PM
As an alternative to number bonuses, what features might work as a combat related skill.

Instead he gets seven number bonuses. As said these could just be class features instead without being skill tax. Except as said it doesn't add anything interesting. Fighters already get nice numbers. People don't like them because they're boring or because they don't have many options or because the lack of options is perceived as a lack of power.

I'm saying all this and yet I'm currently playing a fighter to change things up. He focuses on melee yet frequently uses a wide variety of backup options. He's used a bow, thrown alchemical weapons, got thrown weapons, grappled, held foes at bay with reach, tripped and I forget what else in about 2 sessions. All of these were without focusing the build on it, all of these were a better idea than melee during the specific situation I had to use them in. I merely bought some items to have handy. That said I wish I had remembered the special metals for DR (mainly on arrows; they're cheaper) and spare change for emergencies. That really hurt.

wayfare
2011-02-04, 10:50 PM
Instead he gets seven number bonuses. As said these could just be class features instead without being skill tax. Except as said it doesn't add anything interesting. Fighters already get nice numbers. People don't like them because they're boring or because they don't have many options or because the lack of options is perceived as a lack of power.

I'm saying all this and yet I'm currently playing a fighter to change things up. He focuses on melee yet frequently uses a wide variety of backup options. He's used a bow, thrown alchemical weapons, got thrown weapons, grappled, held foes at bay with reach, tripped and I forget what else in about 2 sessions. All of these were without focusing the build on it, all of these were a better idea than melee during the specific situation I had to use them in. I merely bought some items to have handy. That said I wish I had remembered the special metals for DR (mainly on arrows; they're cheaper) and spare change for emergencies. That really hurt.

Ummm, five?

I was asking for suggestions as to what might be better.

I know these things could be part of the class, but they are not. I was just trying to give the fighter a way to be better at the options he does have.

However, I was thinking that this skill could grant some the following options:

1) You can use combat mastery to buff your allies to a limited degree. As a full action, you make a combat mastery check and indicate which of the following characteristics you want to buff: Attack rolls, Damage rolls, Fortitude Saves, Will Saves, or AC. When rolling, you must declare the DC you are "aiming for." Failure to meet this DC results in no effect:

10 or less = +0
15 = +1
20 = +2
25 = +3
30 = +4
35 = +5
40 = +6

This bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to half your level. If you activate another combat mastery effect, the previous effect expires. If the character who initiated Combat Mastery is reduced to 0 hp the effects of combat mastery end.

Multiple characters with combat mastery can activate different combat mastery effects, but identical effects never stack.

A character with combat mastery can enhance a number of allies equal to half your level.

2) I'm thinking of a feature that allows for a self buff instead of a group buff. Something that can grant bonus speed, temporary hp, immunity to compulsions and fear, etc.

Are these ideas a bit more workable?

ericgrau
2011-02-04, 11:25 PM
Well if you want to pull something more useful from what I said besides the negative stuff I said I suppose it would be to step away from the +X (neither to self nor allies) and add things like special abilities.

wayfare
2011-02-05, 12:53 AM
How is this for a revision:


Combat Mastery
Strength
Trained Only
Effect: This skill represents the exacting training a fighter undergoes throughout his adventures. The ability to muster troops, to understand flaws in an enemies attacks, to push ones body to its physical peak are all aspects of this skill.
Characters with the Combat Mastery skill can generate a variety of effects, though the extent of these effects is typically more limited than those generated by a Bard, Wizard, or Cleric. Many of these effects alter the Fighter -- others enhance his allies. The fighter can only attempt to use this skill once each round -- on a failed attempt the skill wasted and cannot be used again for 1 round.
A fighter can generate any of the following effects, though he must declare with effect he is attempting before he makes his skill roll:

Instill Courage
Action: Move
DC: 15
Effect: All allies within 30 feet of you can make a saving throw against an active fear effect, or all allies within 30 feet gain +2 to saving throws against fear effects.

Lions Charge
Action: Swift
DC: 20
Effect: On a successful Combat Mastery Check, you may move up to your full speed and make a full attack in the same round.

Inspire Fanaticism
Action: Move
DC: 15
Effect: On a successful Combat Mastery Check, you grant an ally temporary 1d10 + 1/level temporary HP for a number of rounds equal to half your level (rounded up).
Multiple uses of this effect on the same target do not stack.

Lead the Charge
Action: Swift
DC: 20
Effect: On a successful Combat Mastery Check, all allies within 30 feet gain a +10 foot bonus to speed and a +2 bonus to melee damage until the beginning of your next turn.

Tactical Expertise
Action: Swift
DC: 20
Effect: On a successful Combat Mastery Check, all allies within 30 feet gain +2 to AC and +2 to attack rolls until the beginning of your next turn.

Instill Clarity
Action: Standard
DC: 25
Effect: On a successful Combat Mastery Check, all allies within 30 feet can make a Saving Throw against a Charm, Compulsion, or Domination effect.

Vainglory
Action: Standard
DC: 25
Effect: On a successful Combat Mastery Check, you gain Immunity to Fear and Compulsion effects for a number of rounds equal to half your level (rounded up).

Dervish Horde
Action: Full
DC: 30
Effect: On a successful Combat Mastery Check, all allies within 30 feet act as if under the effect of the Haste spell until the beginning of your next turn.

Superior Reflexes
Action: Free
DC: 20
Effect: On a Successful Combat Mastery check, you may act this round at your maximum Initiative rating (as if you rolled a 20 on your initiative check).

I fear that it might infringe upon the bard's territory a bit too much.

Kyuu Himura
2011-02-05, 01:08 AM
What about this:

Every rank gives the fighter a "Mastery point"
The fighter can spend these "Mastery Points" to achieve effects such as:
-get additional attacks after a charge or move at the normal full-attack rate
-get to ignore X number of size cotegories for the purposes of Bull-rush, Trip, etc. (X depending of how many points he spends)
-use the combat mastery skill instead of bluff for a feint
-gain the effects of a feat for that the fighter qualifies for.
-as above, but ignoring ability score prerequisites.
-gain an additional attack of opportunity as an inmediate action.
-Ignore armor check penalty to skills and movement.
-make a crit-immune creature vulnerable to critical hits with a ridiculously destructive attack (the party rougue will love you for this)
-Stay concious when below 0 hit points.
-Make an attack that leaves a "flashy wound" that makes the fighter look like a threat, thus making "kill the guy with the armor" look like a decent idea. This could be achieved with an opposed battle mastery vs heal check.
-other interesting ones coming soon, I hope.

These "buffs" remain active for as many rounds as the skill rank in combat mastery and, obviously, cost a different amount of "Mastery Points" depending on what trick you are trying to perform. Your rank in Combat Mastery does NOT decrease when you spend Mastery Points.

Thoughts??

wayfare
2011-02-05, 12:05 PM
I think that both your suggestion and mine lack the elegance of simplicity: both would be useful as ideas for entire classes, but packing that much utility into a skill borders on true-naming.

Most skills have a few discrete ways in which you can use them. There are exceptions, but very few skills add this many options to a character in and of themselves: even UMD only has a few related uses which end up spiraling into a great many options because of the magic device rather than the skill.

I think Combat Mastery should be boiled down into 1-3 uses. The rest of the utility can be gained from Fighter Bonus Feats that rely on Combat Mastery to function.

My thoughts

1) Combat Mastery replaces your normal initiative modifier

2) A DC 15 combat mastery check grants an ally +2 to hit and +2 to damage until the beginning of your next turn.

3) When feinting in combat, you may use Combat Mastery in place of Bluff to resolve your action. If you do so, add your Base Attack bonus to the check.

4) When attempting to Grapple or Trip an opponent, replace your Size Modifier with half your ranks in Combat Mastery

With this Framework, Feats could be designed to build on Combat Mastery. For Example:

Lions Charge
Requires: Base Attack +6, Combat Mastery +9
Effect: As a swift action you may attempt a DC20 Combat Mastery Check. Success indicates that you can take a full move and full attack action in the same round.

Swift Fury
Requires: Base Attack +12, Combat Mastery +15
Effect: As a swift action, you may attempt a DC 25 Combat Mastery check. Success indicates that all allies within 30 feet act as if under the effects of the Haste spell until the beginning of your next turn.

Rally Troops
Requires: Base Attack +3, Combat Mastery +6
Effect: As a swift action, you may attempt a DC 15 Combat Mastery check. On a success, you grant all allies within 30 feet +2 to attack and damage rolls until the beginning of your next turn.

Flash Cut
Requires: Base Attack +5, Combat Mastery +8
Effect: Whenever an opponent is denied their Dexterity Bonus to AC, attacks you make against that opponent add your Combat Mastery rating to damage.

I don't know if this makes the skill more reasonable...and if so, I'm not certain that its very useful...but I am open to suggestions.

Hipen3
2011-02-05, 07:55 PM
Okay you guys have lost me so someone please explain?

Mulletmanalive
2011-02-06, 05:32 PM
Okay you guys have lost me so someone please explain?

It is generally considered in 3.5, even amongst those of us who really hate the idea of the spellcasters being a measuring stick, that the Fighter class is pretty poor.

It's incredibly vulnerable to Will spells, lacks damage potential without ridiculous optimisation, has no skills that can make them of any real use outside of direct combat or the occasional intimidation session, fall over with annoying regularity and even when optimised [because of the limited nature of feats] run out of steam to remain relevant around level 6-8.

Another complaint is that they have no real choice, which is my personal bugbear with it, in that the only actions it can really make are Standard Attack, Full Attack and Charge actions, along with the various combat manoeuvres from the PHB. A common idea is to grant more variations, such as a bunch of standard action abilities that knock people over, disarm them, inflict status ailments and the like.

wayfare
2011-02-06, 08:19 PM
Okay you guys have lost me so someone please explain?

I came to the conclusion that the skill was best left to a few related "tricks" that made a typical fighters life easier -- boosting initiative, increasing your effective size to make grapples better, allowing you to feint more easily. With this in mind, i designed a few feats that could use Combat Mastery as a basis to create more powerful effects.

These feats would count as fighter bonus feats, and allow you to do cool things like move and attack, haste your allies, or get an approximation of sneak attack. Other feats might make your allies immune to Fear effects, grant allies temporary hp, or expand critical threat range.