How Viable Would a Magical Beast Wildshape Be? [Archive]

wayfare

2011-02-03, 01:50 PM

woodenbandman

2011-02-03, 01:53 PM

No, completely unplayable. You can only turn into a bear, what use is that?

Keld Denar

2011-02-03, 01:54 PM

Probably HD for consistancy's sake.

Note, that there are a couple of workaround ways to get WS into magical beasts. Exalted Wildshape gets you some really decent magical beasts like giant owls, pegasi, unicorns, and blink dogs. Frozen Wildshape gets you any magical beats with the [Cold] subtype, including the lauded cryohydra.

That said, if you are competely giving up spellcasting, access to unrestricted magical beast wildshape forms would be fine, balance-wise.

Dusk Eclipse

2011-02-03, 01:54 PM

Might be interesting..and you should key it to HD as normal wildshape.

Last Laugh

2011-02-03, 01:55 PM

Just testing the waters for an idea:

I'm making an alternate Druid that loses spellcasting but gains the ability to wildshape into magical beasts.

I know this brings the druid down a tier or two, but I was wondering if the class would still be playable.

Also, should the wildshape be linked to CR to HD?

Isn't wildshape traditionally linked to HD?

Either way I suggest that you simply point them towards the master of many forms PrC in C. Adv.

It has no casting, but rapidly gives access to many different wildshape forms.

Hyfigh

2011-02-03, 02:02 PM

Isn't That Damn Crab a magical beast? CR 3, 7HD... I say go with HD over CR. HD is certainly a more consistant way to figure out how tough a creature is.

I think that the healing factor built in to wildshape should be removed if you had intended to remove the limits per day. I certainly see no balance issue if you're removing spellcasting...

wayfare

2011-02-03, 02:05 PM

Isn't wildshape traditionally linked to HD?

Either way I suggest that you simply point them towards the master of many forms PrC in C. Adv.

It has no casting, but rapidly gives access to many different wildshape forms.

MoMF is really fun to play. This thing I'm working on is for a campaign that isn't exactly low magic, but has very limited access to magic -- there are only 2 classes that actually cast spells. Any other magical effects are generated as Su or Sp abilities.

This particular class gets an enhanced wildshape to compensate for its lack of direct magic. It also gains a natural enhancement bonus to attacks that increases as you level up.

Essentially, its taking the "signature" feature of being a druid and trying to stretch that into a full class. maybe a vain hope, but i think it might work. I hope it will, anyway.

Zaydos

2011-02-03, 02:05 PM

2xMachina

2011-02-03, 02:16 PM

So... this class is: Replace your Druid lvls with RHD of Magical beasts. Congrats! You even get to change those RHD to other magical beast.

wayfare

2011-02-03, 02:24 PM

So... this class is: Replace your Druid lvls with RHD of Magical beasts. Congrats! You even get to change those RHD to other magical beast.

Umm, i don't follow. You usually keep your own Hd and whatnot when becoming a magical beast.

Urpriest

2011-02-03, 02:25 PM

So... this class is: Replace your Druid lvls with RHD of Magical beasts. Congrats! You even get to change those RHD to other magical beast.

Actually that would be way more powerful. Magical beast HD rock.

Dralnu

2011-02-03, 02:28 PM

Essentially, its taking the "signature" feature of being a druid and trying to stretch that into a full class. maybe a vain hope, but i think it might work. I hope it will, anyway.

Vain hope? Even with just normal wildshape you're still outclassing nearly every pure melee class outside of ToB. But even the best melee classes can't match your versatility. You're the best scout, runner / flyer / swimmer, grappler, attacker, tank, whatever, all in the same build! And you don't even need stats because wildshape covers that too! Let's not forget the animal companion either.

So, lose spellcasting, gain the ability to turn into any magical beast and also get natural enhancement bonuses for kicks? Gee, I think you'll manage. :smalltongue:

wayfare

2011-02-03, 02:31 PM

Vain hope? Even with just normal wildshape you're still outclassing nearly every pure melee class outside of ToB. But even the best melee classes can't match your versatility. You're the best scout, runner / flyer / swimmer, grappler, attacker, tank, whatever, all in the same build! And you don't even need stats because wildshape covers that too! Let's not forget the animal companion either.

So, lose spellcasting, gain the ability to turn into any magical beast and also get natural enhancement bonuses for kicks? Gee, I think you'll manage. :smalltongue:

true...

Would limiting the number of forms you get help? Like instead of limiting the forms you can assume by size, you limit the number of forms you get period?

2xMachina

2011-02-03, 02:39 PM

Ok, I rescind my earlier comment. If you get Wildshape at will, you're pretty much good to go.

If it's just: Add Magical Beast to list of things you can wildshape into, it's weak. (Unless you pop 5 lvls of Warshaper)

There's an epic feat that does this (Magical Beast Wild Shape)

bokodasu

2011-02-03, 02:39 PM

The main problem with magical beasts is that they top out pretty low. If you're using regular wildshape, where you don't get any but (Ex) abilities, you don't get a lot. (Cryo/Pyrohydras are still nice, though.)

Although if by "an enhanced wildshape" you mean like "enhance wildshape", then nevermind, you're golden.

Dralnu

2011-02-03, 02:44 PM

Power level is always dependent on the other players and the DM, in my opinion.

If the other players are unoptimized healbot clerics, fighters, blaster sorcerers, and a DM that is following CR guidelines for encounters, you don't even need magical wildshape or enhancement bonuses. You'll still overshadow them a great deal with just normal wildshape and animal companion. Removing spells is actually a nice balancing gesture.

If the group are a bunch of cutthroat optimizers in the tier 2 and topmost tier 3 range and the DM can handle that, then yeah there's some leeway here. I honestly don't know what are the most broken magical beasts you could select but I have a feeling they're out there. I've seen a magical monster handbook at some point but I can't find it at the moment. It would highlight the craziest monsters that you could snag. Otherwise, there's this handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) for plain ol' normal wildshape goodness. Do a little digging and I'm sure you'll find a magical beast list too.

Ernir

2011-02-03, 02:45 PM

Would you be allowing Assume Supernatural Ability and/or Metamorphic Transfer?

Greenish

2011-02-03, 03:05 PM

Note, that there are a couple of workaround ways to get WS into magical beasts.For example, shepherding planes. :smallamused:

Keld Denar

2011-02-03, 03:12 PM

For example, shepherding planes. :smallamused:

SILENCE!!!! I KEEL YOU!!!!

We do not speak of that.

wayfare

2011-02-03, 03:20 PM

Would you be allowing Assume Supernatural Ability and/or Metamorphic Transfer?

Assume supernatural ability would probably be a class feature, as would its improved version. Thinking levels 6 and 12.

Alternatively, if i go with the limited number of monsters option, i think you would just be able to use the Su abilities without requiring a feat.

Ernir

2011-02-03, 04:08 PM

Assume supernatural ability would probably be a class feature, as would its improved version. Thinking levels 6 and 12.

Alternatively, if i go with the limited number of monsters option, i think you would just be able to use the Su abilities without requiring a feat.

In that case, I think you're just going to run into new problems.

How do you feel about your players turning into Blink Dogs (4 HD) to Dimension Door around as a free action? Ethereal Marauders (2 HD) to Ethereal their way around the battlefield? 5-headed Pyrohydras (5HD) to blast someone with 15d6 worth of fire damage once every 1d4 rounds? Higher-HD Magical Beasts get significantly crazier.

Have you considered the Totemist as a Druid replacement?

HunterOfJello

2011-02-03, 04:16 PM

there was a druid acf in one of the recent Kobold magazines that removed spellcasting from the druid and gave them a bunch of cool wildshape stuff and some other interesting abilities.

wayfare

2011-02-03, 05:30 PM

In that case, I think you're just going to run into new problems.

How do you feel about your players turning into Blink Dogs (4 HD) to Dimension Door around as a free action? Ethereal Marauders (2 HD) to Ethereal their way around the battlefield? 5-headed Pyrohydras (5HD) to blast someone with 15d6 worth of fire damage once every 1d4 rounds? Higher-HD Magical Beasts get significantly crazier.

Have you considered the Totemist as a Druid replacement?

The dimension door cheese isn't something that a druid can't do anyway with spells or by turning into an insect or something.

And hydras are very powerful, but its 1 power as opposed to a huge spell list and wild shape and animal companion.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2011-02-03, 05:34 PM

Dude, now I just wanna make a druid that's always wildshaped into a Girallon.

wayfare

2011-02-03, 06:17 PM

6 limbed man-ape = awesome.

HunterOfJello

2011-02-03, 09:04 PM

Dude, now I just wanna make a druid that's always wildshaped into a Girallon.

You can also do this with the Totemist class. They're great at attacking with natural attacks. Mix Totemist 2 and the Feral template into any character build for a ton of fun.

2xMachina

2011-02-04, 01:23 AM

Normal druid could always use Girallon's Blessings. Maybe even persist it later, to be a Dire polar bear with 4 arms. Or a Dire Desmondu Bat with 2 arms?

Ungvar

2011-02-04, 01:35 PM

The dimension door cheese isn't something that a druid can't do anyway with spells or by turning into an insect or something.

And hydras are very powerful, but its 1 power as opposed to a huge spell list and wild shape and animal companion.

Druids actually don't get much in the way of teleportation spells, and they also can't typically wildshape into anything smaller than Tiny size, which is about the size of a housecat. Insects would be Fine sized, which Druids don't get as a class feature.

Also, hydras are just one of a potentially huge magical beast list. Don't compare the hydra by itself against spellcasting; it's just one small part of you new druid's arsenal of forms.

You definitely won't have to worry about this class being viable.

wayfare

2011-02-04, 02:14 PM

Druids actually don't get much in the way of teleportation spells, and they also can't typically wildshape into anything smaller than Tiny size, which is about the size of a housecat. Insects would be Fine sized, which Druids don't get as a class feature.

Also, hydras are just one of a potentially huge magical beast list. Don't compare the hydra by itself against spellcasting; it's just one small part of you new druid's arsenal of forms.

You definitely won't have to worry about this class being viable.

After reviewing these comments, I think that this might be the best solution:

Druid will have a limited number of magical beast shapes they can shift into (Probably capping out at 5 or 6; 1 at level, 2 at level 4 and an additional shape every 4 levels thereafter)

Each level you gain Wild Shape will have a list of monsters you can choose from. You may only choose to gain the wildshape of 1 magical beast each time you gain the class feature. You can choose from lower level lists if you like.

The lists will exclude beasts that have gamebreaking abilities. At very least, these creatures will be delayed a few levels (ethereal marauders, for example, would either be eliminated entirely or delayed until a higher level).

Any ideas as to which creatures i should exclude from the wildshape lists?

PlzBreakMyCmpAn

2011-02-04, 02:15 PM

Dude, now I just wanna make a druid that's always wildshaped into a Girallon.Doable even in free DnD, before splat books.

Listen carefully and I'll tell you the feat before the modera-

gorfnab

2011-02-04, 02:30 PM

Isn't That Damn Crab a magical beast? CR 3, 7HD... I say go with HD over CR. HD is certainly a more consistant way to figure out how tough a creature is.

It's a vermin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a), which means a druid can wildshape into it at level 8 with the feat Vermin Shape (ECS).

Tyndmyr

2011-02-04, 03:08 PM