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Angry Bob
2011-02-03, 06:30 PM
Backstory: I keep dying, to the point where I can't be introduced until the beginning of the next module in the campaign. The general character level is around 2.

Characters built and killed so far:

Wood Elf TWF Warblade: Survived I think two sessions, then fell into a stream with an ooze in it. Died in one round.

Wood Elf Spinning Sword/AOO Warblade: I actually forget how this guy died. It involved being the first one through the door and getting critted by a Varag. I think.

Human Psywarrior w/expansion, Stand Still, Spiked Chain, Imp. Trip, etc: Brought to negatives by a runehound as he was introduced, later more "finally" one-shotted by a skeletal minotaur that he missed with Stand Still, and Death Knelled.

Lesser Aasimar VoP Shapeshift Druid: Took falling damage upon entering the campaign, actually did pretty well until she was critted at the absolute worst time by a fiendish dire boar. She managed to stabilize the crippled party ranger just before he dropped to -10, though, so it was sort of worth it.

Keep in mind that the rest of the party has the following death track:

Player 1: No deaths
Player 2: No deaths
Player 3: Lost a factotum, then a warlock, now playing a cleric.

The character I'm considering building when I'm reinserted is a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard with Healing Hymn, but I still feel like I'm going to end up walking in front the whole time. The rest of the party right now is as such:

Player 1: Wizard 2/Cleric 1: Knowledge Devotion, fetish for Power Word: Pain and Persisted Critical Strike, going on Mystic Theurge/Outdated version of Arcane Hierophant/wtf ever with the aid of Southern Magician.
Player 2: Ranger 3: Aberrations as favored enemy, ranged combat specialist, currently sucks at it due to ongoing dex damage.
Player 3: Cleric 2: The designated healer after deciding the root of our problems was not the comically lethal mod, but rather our limited capacity to heal. Which admittedly was a problem, but even with two healers(this cleric and my druid, via Lesser Vigor) it was still insufficient.

tl;dr: Have you ever found it impossible to keep a character alive? How did you fix it? Should my next character TK player 1 for acting like it's entirely my fault for getting critted at the worst possible moment?

Saph
2011-02-03, 07:03 PM
Hehe, your list of previous characters made me laugh. It was practically a usual-suspects answer list for "Suggestions for the most powerful ECL 2 build", though unlike most of the requests of that type we get here, it sounds like your characters are underpowered if anything relative to what you're dealing with.

Anyway, it sounds to me as if your DM is running an incredibly lethal campaign, or has a personal grudge against you and Player 3, or both, and your chance of PC death is going to be pretty high no matter what you pick. Options include:

1) Continue building high-power characters to try and beat the monsters. This will probably fail as often as succeed, but hey, you'll get lots of optimisation and tactics practice. I can think of a good few high-power low-level builds you haven't tried yet.

2) Give up on winning and just focus on surviving: build a character whose sole focus is on living through each encounter. Again, there are various ways to do this, though "ghost" builds tend to be the best at it.

Which would you rather go for?

Angry Bob
2011-02-03, 07:10 PM
In this case, I'm out of the campaign until the beginning of the next mod because the DM is sick of inserting new characters progressively deeper in the dungeon. I'd like to keep playing the same kind of character, but that's obviously not feasible. Expound on this 'ghost' build.

Also could you expound on how my characters seemed underpowered? Because that would also help.

Saph
2011-02-03, 07:20 PM
Also could you expound on how my characters seemed underpowered?

They're not. By any normal standards, they'd be overpowered - I'd expect a low-level Lesser Aasimar VoP Druid to be able to solo most level-appropriate encounters. You're just playing at a ludicrously high difficulty level. I'm one of those odd people who actually enjoys dungeons with ludicrously high difficulty levels, like the Neverending Dungeon here on these forums, but it doesn't seem like you're in the 'fun' phase. :P

"Ghost" builds - it's a nickname I came up with for an archetype I ran into in the Test of Spite duels and some of the NeD runs I GMed. Idea is to make the character as near as possible to undetectable. You combine incredibly high Hide/Move Silently scores with Hide in Plain Sight. Add in the Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness and there are only a handful of (very rare) abilities in the entire game that can detect you.

Psyren
2011-02-03, 07:23 PM
Backstory: I keep dying,

No wonder you're angry. :smalltongue:
(couldn't help myself)


Should my next character TK player 1 for acting like it's entirely my fault for getting critted at the worst possible moment?

Kill the player? Isn't that a bit overboard?

Schtick aside, what Saph is getting at is that your characters are pretty optimized, but you're running afoul of things you shouldn't be fighting at that level. Ergo, your DM is running a very tough campaign. A runehound, for instance, has:

- Reach
- 50ft. speed
- spits 5d6 acid almost at-will
- 500 ft. blindsight
- +4 natural armor

A bit of a tall order for a level 2.

Greenish
2011-02-03, 07:23 PM
You die mostly because you're hit, you're hit because you're a frontliner. The characters who stay alive are the ones who hang back.

There's a lesson to be learned from here.

Jornophelanthas
2011-02-03, 08:39 PM
It doesn't sound like you're having any fun in this campaign. I mean,

a. losing multiple characters
b. fighting enemies with ridiculously high CR for your level
c. getting blamed by another player for dying at a moment inconvenient for them
d. forbidden from introducing a new character until after several(?) sessions

Why even bother at all?

If, in fact, you do want to continue playing, create a ranged attacker or spellcaster and tell player 1 that his wizard/cleric is now the frontline-fighter, since he has more health than you do.

You die mostly because you're hit, you're hit because you're a frontliner. The characters who stay alive are the ones who hang back.
So have him take the hits.

arguskos
2011-02-03, 08:44 PM
Not only are you fighting over CR'd encounters, but you're fighting over CR'd encounters with monsters of a high power level for their CR. Runehounds and Varags are both very powerful for their CRs, Varag's especially. I've had a varag that accidentally killed an entire party of level 6 characters, just because they couldn't get near it without turning into swiss cheese, and it always moved into range of them and just sat there, letting them provoke it into shredding them. They were unoptimized, but still, it was a blender.

Draz74
2011-02-03, 08:55 PM
You die mostly because you're hit, you're hit because you're a frontliner. The characters who stay alive are the ones who hang back.

There's a lesson to be learned from here.

QFT. I was going to suggest a Dragonfire Adept ... lots of Hit Points, yet you can claim not to be a frontliner and order the Ranger or Cleric to meatshield for you.

Starbuck_II
2011-02-03, 09:05 PM
Lesser Aasimar VoP Shapeshift Druid: Took falling damage upon entering the campaign, actually did pretty well until she was critted at the absolute worst time by a fiendish dire boar. She managed to stabilize the crippled party ranger just before he dropped to -10, though, so it was sort of worth it.

Elaborate on the falling damage thing.

I'd suggest going wacky and making a gish, a Savage species race, etc.

The Rabbler
2011-02-03, 09:18 PM
how about a crusader? lots of hit points, self-healing maneuvers, and defenses.

Tavar
2011-02-03, 09:23 PM
You know, I hate to say this. I really do. But....monks are good a surviving. Well, as long as you don't get into melee combat. I suggest Shurikens.


More seriously, both Crusaders or DragonFireAdepts could work well.

Angry Bob
2011-02-03, 11:20 PM
I just learned that the campaign world has no partial dragons, so Dragonfire Inspiration is off the table. I could adjust the build appropriately and still not be the frontliner. I feel like a crusader could work, but that didn't work in the last campaign either. The problem is that I have a knack for attracting crits and high damage rolls, so anything I build that gets hit would be likely be one-shotted. And no, nothing in this world that's suitable as a player race is immune to crits.

Though this campaign isn't as bad as the last one, with a different DM. The party was weaker in general and there was an even greater disparity between the party ECL and CR of the monsters. And the DM blaming us for not having good tactics and strong characters.

For a "ghost" character, does a Swordsage with Travel Devotion sound effective?

The Rabbler
2011-02-03, 11:36 PM
I just learned that the campaign world has no partial dragons, so Dragonfire Inspiration is off the table. I could adjust the build appropriately and still not be the frontliner. I feel like a crusader could work, but that didn't work in the last campaign either. The problem is that I have a knack for attracting crits and high damage rolls, so anything I build that gets hit would be likely be one-shotted. And no, nothing in this world that's suitable as a player race is immune to crits.

no warforged? that's a shame. for your last crusader, did you pick up the dr 5 stance? it helps out a lot.



Though this campaign isn't as bad as the last one, with a different DM. The party was weaker in general and there was an even greater disparity between the party ECL and CR of the monsters. And the DM blaming us for not having good tactics and strong characters.

ouch. you could always roll a batman wizard if you ever make it past level 5.



For a "ghost" character, does a Swordsage with Travel Devotion sound effective?
I'd throw in whisper gnome on top of that just in case. Also, if you're going to play a "ghost", make someone else go in first.

Jarian
2011-02-03, 11:40 PM
For a "ghost" character, does a Swordsage with Travel Devotion sound effective?

A true "ghost" character would be something like...

Whisper Gnome Warlock 1/Rogue 1

Take the Darkness invocation as your invocation. You now have Darkness as an SLA. Take the Blend Into Shadows feat from Drow of the Underdark. You can now Hide in Plain Sight as a swift action within 10 feet of an area of darkness.

Cast darkness on a coin, which you carry around constantly. Drop at the start of combat, and walk around sniping flatfooted creatures with touch attacks (generally meaning AC 10 for a while) that deal 1d6+1d6 damage.

Make sure you get a masterwork hide tool.

Boci
2011-02-03, 11:45 PM
A true "ghost" character would be something like...

Whisper Gnome Warlock 1/Rogue 1

Take the Darkness invocation as your invocation. You now have Darkness as an SLA. Take the Blend Into Shadows feat from Drow of the Underdark. You can now Hide in Plain Sight as a swift action within 10 feet of an area of darkness.

Cast darkness on a coin, which you carry around constantly. Drop at the start of combat, and walk around sniping flatfooted creatures with touch attacks (generally meaning AC 10 for a while) that deal 1d6+1d6 damage.

Make sure you get a masterwork hide tool.

-20 hide penalty after you attack.

Angry Bob
2011-02-03, 11:51 PM
no warforged? that's a shame. for your last crusader, did you pick up the dr 5 stance? it helps out a lot.

That crusader was the victim of a combination of misfortune, WIS 8 roleplayed accordingly, a group of suspiciously strong city guards plus an Osyluth, and only having one action before they all went to town on him.

The DR 5/- stance is an eighth-level IH stance, isn't it? No, he didn't have that. If you mean stone bones, yes, he had that.

So another crusader might work here, but the solution at this point looks like avoiding contact with the enemy altogether.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-03, 11:52 PM
Mineral Warrior (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) + Crusader would be my choice for a frontliner, though you could use pretty much any tanky class and it would work out well.

Kobolds have the Dragonblood subtype, so you could still make a DFI Bard.

Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) can provide some decent throwaway meatshields.

Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) + Wild Cohort is actually pretty good, even without DFI. Savage Bard 6/ Mindbender 1/ Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 3/ Sublime Chord would be the direction I'd go provided it could survive that long.

Wild Cohort states that it's tracked separately from an Animal Companion class feature, but it doesn't specify that they have to be separate creatures. You could make a Druid with Wild Cohort and apply both sets of bonuses to the same critter to make a superpet. You could also apply the Warbeast template (MM2) to it as long as you had enough time to train it and could succeed on the Handle Animal checks by taking ten. Get Natural Bond at 3rd so at 4th level you can get a 'level -3' companion like a Fleshraker (MM3) and you'll still get to count your full level for its benefits. Take Greenbound Summoning from Lost Empires of Faerun at 1st level and your Summon Nature's Ally 1 can get a Greenbound Dire Rat which can use Wall of Thorns 1/day and Entangle at will as spell-like abilities. SNA II can get 1d3 Greenbound Dire Rats or a Greenbound Dire Bat. Greenbound creatures get +6 natural armor, DR 10/Magic and Slashing, fast healing 3, plant traits (crit immunity!), tremorsense, huge ability score bonuses.... so opponents will have to waste a lot of attacks to kill them and they still may last the entire summon duration.

arguskos
2011-02-03, 11:56 PM
That crusader was the victim of a combination of misfortune, WIS 8 roleplayed accordingly, a group of suspiciously strong city guards plus an Osyluth, and only having one action before they all went to town on him.
Ok, so, by Osyluth, you mean the Bone Devil, the CR 9 monster? If this is right, the issue is not you, it's the DM.

Jarian
2011-02-03, 11:57 PM
-20 hide penalty after you attack.

Only if you snipe hide. If you allow yourself to be seen, then use your swift action HiPS from Blend Into Shadow, you don't suffer a penalty.

Boci
2011-02-04, 12:54 AM
Only if you snipe hide. If you allow yourself to be seen, then use your swift action HiPS from Blend Into Shadow, you don't suffer a penalty.

That works, but you're going to run out of castings for darkness very soon.

Jarian
2011-02-04, 12:57 AM
Except a Warlock's Darkness Invocation is at will?

Boci
2011-02-04, 01:03 AM
Except a Warlock's Darkness Invocation is at will?

Oh. RAW legal, but arguably against the spirit of the feat. I would allow it, hopefully the OP's DM will as well.

Roog
2011-02-04, 01:22 AM
In this case, I'm out of the campaign until the beginning of the next mod because the DM is sick of inserting new characters progressively deeper in the dungeon.

If you are out when you die, just wait until the rest of the party dies off. Then have a discussion with the DM about lethality.

Another_Poet
2011-02-04, 02:16 AM
Embrace the pain. Roll up a Commoner2 and eat your fate.

Runestar
2011-02-04, 02:34 AM
tl;dr: Have you ever found it impossible to keep a character alive? How did you fix it? Should my next character TK player 1 for acting like it's entirely my fault for getting critted at the worst possible moment?

At low lvs, yes, because PCs have so little hp that combat is still very swingy, and success still boils down to who wins initiative. So fights are still a coin-toss.

The solution would be to either use monsters with multiple attacks, but deal pitiful damage per hit, or start at higher lvs (3 is a good point, since it also allows rogues to take weapon finesse).

Sebastrd
2011-02-04, 11:31 AM
Your DM sucks, and this post is just a bookmark.

Carry on, while I make some popcorn...

Tavar
2011-02-04, 11:33 AM
Can you ask the DM how he's deciding what monsters to throw at you? Cause, if he's doing what he seems to be doing, perhaps it's a misunderstanding of the CR system. Wouldn't be the first time it's happened.

Angry Bob
2011-02-04, 12:07 PM
Don't misunderstand. This game's a whole lot better than the one where the DM, now Player 1, threw us into what he knew was a meat grinder and then blamed us for playing weak builds(while incidentally disallowing all the good stuff) and weak tactics(when cornering us) when we got messily slaughtered.

At least in this game, when I decided to play a frontliner, I had an inkling of what I was getting into. And to be fair, until Player 3's character died for the second time, we didn't even have out-of-combat healing.

All I'm looking for here is a more guaranteed way to live through encounters. At this point, that's all I really want.

EDIT: The monsters he's throwing at us are in the module. The rune hound? Apparently, that's exactly what it recommends having the (supposedly ECL 3) party rescue a newcomer from to introduce him.

Psyren
2011-02-04, 12:10 PM
So the module sucks too?

Angry Bob
2011-02-04, 12:16 PM
Yes, the module does suck. But apparently, he ran another group (of three) through it and they didn't lose anyone. It is a mystery.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-04, 04:21 PM
What's the name of this module? Is it supposed to be based around running away?

If not, your DM is clearly trying to kill you. And given that, I have no idea how Player 1 is getting away with heavy use of Power Word: Pain and Persisted Critical Strike. Perhaps you should stop walking in front, or summon creatures to walk in front of you. Unfortunately, summoning doesn't get much love at low levels, and you did try Druid. Cleric 1/ whatever 1 with Knowledge Devotion and Trickery Devotion could work.

The aforementioned Whisper Gnome Warlock/ Rogue sounds like your best bet to me.

Eric Tolle
2011-02-04, 05:57 PM
Bring in any character you want, and a loaded revolver. **** the revolver, and put it down next to your character sheet, where it's easily at hand. Every time the GM starts to say something to you, put your hand on the revolver.

I guarantee you, your characters won't die any more.

The Rabbler
2011-02-04, 05:58 PM
Bring in any character you want, and a loaded revolver. **** the revolver, and put it down next to your character sheet, where it's easily at hand. Every time the GM starts to say something to you, put your hand on the revolver.

I guarantee you, your characters won't die any more.

^ also a great way to get arrested.

dspeyer
2011-02-04, 09:47 PM
Perhaps you should stop walking in front, or summon creatures to walk in front of you. Unfortunately, summoning doesn't get much love at low levels, and you did try Druid.

The SNA-I list is pretty weak. Maybe a psion(shaper)? A level 1 astral construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm) beats a wolf on ac, hp, damage and flexibility. You can use psionics pretty effectively while hiding.

Sebastrd
2011-02-05, 01:08 PM
^ also a great way to get arrested.

Not if you have a permit.

Of course, you probably won't get invited to the next session...

Boci
2011-02-05, 01:11 PM
Not if you have a permit.

Of course, you probably won't get invited to the next session...

Or you will, and the DM will suddenly have bought a rocket launcher.

ka_bna
2011-02-05, 01:17 PM
Or you will, and the DM will suddenly have bought a rocket launcher.
And rocket tag suddenly gains a new dimension...

Starbuck_II
2011-02-05, 01:25 PM
Or you will, and the DM will suddenly have bought a rocket launcher.

I don't think they have permits for that.
You could try a potato launcher though.
Those hurt but are legal.