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OpusMaximus
2011-02-03, 10:42 PM
As background I'm basically your run-of-the-mill brand-new DM, who knows just enough about the game to be dangerous, but "has a story to tell" or some stupidity. I've run a grand total of 3 sessions, 1 last-minute stand-alone and 2 campaign-kickoff sessions, so that should tell you how developed of a DM I am, or am not.
I'm building this 3.5 high-magic classic campaign from the ground up, borrowing heavily from Mr Burlew's campaign setting info to the left, but the story is mine. That being said, I have pages and pages of notes detailing world information, and I'm trying to keep an open setting until the point where the players actually want info or do something. It's more like an open world that is progressing down a general path unless the players decide to explore and take part in it.

Plethora of unwanted background info aside, I decided that Elementals in my world 'recruited' and converted (willing) non-elementals into their ranks for population maintenance purposes. Despite it being fluff, I really want to figure out a way that, somehow, the party is either directly or indirectly responsible for creating the very first Elementals. The catch is that they still face Elementals in their journey, including Elder Elementals, which take a long time to develop. I'm trying to rule out time travel, but only because it's used as a plot point in a side quest.

So my question is this: How can the players be able to create the first elemental, while still encountering Elder Elementals? Is time travel the only way?

LOTRfan
2011-02-03, 10:45 PM
Perhaps "Elder' would be a title denoting power, instead of age?

The Rabbler
2011-02-03, 10:57 PM
wait, so you want the players to create the first elementals after elementals have already 'recruited' non-elementals? Yea, seems like time travel is the only option that makes any sense.

Maybe instead of the party creating the first batch of elementals, they create the elemental planes (where all elementals come from). Perhaps they go back in time to create the planes/stop someone from halting the creation of the planes. You could make it a recurring adventure to go back in time and defend the creation of the planes from threats.

OpusMaximus
2011-02-03, 11:02 PM
I've considered that, but then the question was 'elder to what?', which meant the elemental wouldn't get such power/titleage until after it completed training a new elemental. Use caution reading below.

Meet Joe Human, a non-elemental. While still in the womb, Joe's hippy northerner parents do what many tribes do and renew their family pledge to the elemental spririts, specifically fire.

Meet Magosh, A Huge Fire Elemental. Magosh decides to take on an 'apprentice' of sorts and accepts Joe Human's family's tribute, in return marking Joe Human as his chosen.

When Joe Human is born, the village's hippy shaman/druid informs his elated parents of the mark, but cautions them to keep it secret, even from other family members. Pride is unbecoming to elementals.

When Magosh becomes a Greater Fire Elemental, the bond with Joe Human strengthens and Joe Human is drawn to Magosh. Magosh trains Joe Human until he sheds his human form, becoming a Medium Fire Elemental. When the transformation is complete, Magosh in turn becomes an Elder Fire Elemental.

OpusMaximus
2011-02-03, 11:13 PM
wait, so you want the players to create the first elementals after elementals have already 'recruited' non-elementals? Yea, seems like time travel is the only option that makes any sense.

You're probably right, and while I'm not afraid of using time travel, I just didn't want to overdo it. I'm looking to make it accidental though, something like 'Oops, why is that rock talking to me now?'

Dusk Eclipse
2011-02-03, 11:17 PM
Perhaps the elder elemental are... I dunno the personifications of the elemental planes themselves? You could say that your run of the mill elemental were once humanoids; but for someone to convert them there should be something or someone that first developed the way to convert them.

The Rabbler
2011-02-03, 11:21 PM
I've considered that, but then the question was 'elder to what?', which meant the elemental wouldn't get such power/titleage until after it completed training a new elemental. Use caution reading below.

Meet Joe Human, a non-elemental. While still in the womb, Joe's hippy northerner parents do what many tribes do and renew their family pledge to the elemental spririts, specifically fire.

Meet Magosh, A Huge Fire Elemental. Magosh decides to take on an 'apprentice' of sorts and accepts Joe Human's family's tribute, in return marking Joe Human as his chosen.

When Joe Human is born, the village's hippy shaman/druid informs his elated parents of the mark, but cautions them to keep it secret, even from other family members. Pride is unbecoming to elementals.

When Magosh becomes a Greater Fire Elemental, the bond with Joe Human strengthens and Joe Human is drawn to Magosh. Magosh trains Joe Human until he sheds his human form, becoming a Medium Fire Elemental. When the transformation is complete, Magosh in turn becomes an Elder Fire Elemental.

I wouldn't imply that the only way to grow in many cases is to pair with a non-elemental. That makes it seem like the elementals are only doing this for more power and that the non-elementals themselves have no choice in the matter (parents decide, but the child has no say at all). That seems more like elemental tyrany than anything else.

As DM, the world works exactly how you decide it works. Elder elementals could be called 'Elder' because they defeated and subsequently absorbed a bunch of weaker elementals. They could also be called 'Elder' because they were simply created more powerful than their brethren. You decide the process and as long as the method has some sort of logic behind it, it won't get looked into much. Players won't question something if what happens makes some sort of logical sense.

OpusMaximus
2011-02-03, 11:38 PM
Perhaps the elder elemental are... I dunno the personifications of the elemental planes themselves? You could say that your run of the mill elemental were once humanoids; but for someone to convert them there should be something or someone that first developed the way to convert them.

I could look into it that way, figure out where it all started before deciding whether or not the players influenced it at all.


I wouldn't imply that the only way to grow in many cases is to pair with a non-elemental. That makes it seem like the elementals are only doing this for more power and that the non-elementals themselves have no choice in the matter (parents decide, but the child has no say at all). That seems more like elemental tyrany than anything else.

I totally get where you're coming from, and when I was first writing it up it seemed like that was the case, but I figured that a) becoming an elemental was considered an honor, and b) there's obviously no way to force it. Perhaps only the non-elementals that were *able* to be converted were marked, and only the willing sought out some Primal Elemental or something like that to be converted. That would make Elder Elementals simply a regular progression of inherent power, not dominance.


As DM, the world works exactly how you decide it works. Elder elementals could be called 'Elder' because they defeated and subsequently absorbed a bunch of weaker elementals. They could also be called 'Elder' because they were simply created more powerful than their brethren. You decide the process and as long as the method has some sort of logic behind it, it won't get looked into much. Players won't question something if what happens makes some sort of logical sense.

Yup, basically reinforces my thoughts above. And yes, I do have a tendency to obsess over little details that I'm mostly certain that most players won't really care about, but it just adds a depth that could be explored by interested players.

Kuma Kode
2011-02-04, 01:47 AM
Reincarnation? The current events and the creation of the elementals could have occurred in different lives. Or perhaps the creators were sealed away and only recently awoke, but have difficulty recalling the times before their imprisonment.

OpusMaximus
2011-02-04, 05:45 PM
Reincarnation? The current events and the creation of the elementals could have occurred in different lives. Or perhaps the creators were sealed away and only recently awoke, but have difficulty recalling the times before their imprisonment.

Funny you mention that. I was thinking about having some event that triggers some sort of flashback to or momentary possession of their ancestors, who just so happen to be the ones sealing BBEG to begin with. That takes care of the "don't overuse time travel" thing neatly.