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B1okHead
2011-02-04, 07:19 AM
Where do you think it would be in the tier system?

Eldan
2011-02-04, 07:23 AM
I'd say it's more versatile than most spontaneous casters, as it gets to tailor it's spells known list every day. The druid spell list isn't as good as the wizard sorcerer one, certainly, but with the Spell Compendium, you still have all the spells you ever need. And finally, it also gets class features.

I'd put it in Tier 2, probably.

Yuki Akuma
2011-02-04, 07:28 AM
It's like a Sorcerer or Favoured Soul, but with more flexibility.

Not quite flexible enough to be Tier 1, so Tier 2.

Person_Man
2011-02-04, 10:09 AM
Tier 2. Lots of diverse and potent resources and some nifty class abilities.

Though my caveat is that the one time I saw one played in real life, the player only used the PHB and Complete Divine and didn't like to use Summon Nature's ally for some bizarre reason. (It was a roleplaying thing. Something about not wanting animals to be harmed. I tried to explain that they were extraplanar animals that simply returned to their spiritual homeland after being "killed" - but to no avail). The core-ish Druid spell list tends to be a lot weaker then the Cleric and Wizard lists. So this particular Spirit Shaman was the weakest member of the party. But you could say the same thing about a Wizard who uses Magic Missile, or a Cleric who only heals, etc.

Greenish
2011-02-04, 10:18 AM
It's one of my favourite full casters, I must say. Druid list, properly expanded, has some extremely funny spells, and not having to do the paperwork for animal companion or wildshape suits me fine.

The idea of haggling and dealing with spirits is also something I like.

Casting MAD is a bit of a damper for doing a slightly unconventional blaster, though.

Devmaar
2011-02-04, 11:08 AM
I think it could make tier 1. I'd have thought that full casting, with the versatility of having different spells each day, would make that.

dextercorvia
2011-02-04, 12:14 PM
I'd say high T2. With proper Spells Known optimization it could hit low T1. Finding a way to get a bloodline feat, taking Arcane Preparation for Santified Spells, even a dip into Sand Shaper goes a long way toward fleshing out your choices each day.

Greenish
2011-02-04, 12:30 PM
I'd say high T2. With proper Spells Known optimization it could hit low T1. Finding a way to get a bloodline feat, taking Arcane Preparation for Santified Spells, even a dip into Sand Shaper goes a long way toward fleshing out your choices each day.Druid list is good enough, with Spell Compendium & a few other books, that bloodline feats or sand shaper are probably waste of time, since if you want to use those spells, they still take a spell retrieved slot for the day.

Eberron's Initiate feats can be handy, but by and large druid list hardly needs much expanding.

HeadlessMermaid
2011-02-04, 12:48 PM
I'd say Tier 2 and no more, because:

1) Bonus spells/day and spell DC are based on different stats. At higher levels, this means spending a LOT of resources to keep both Charisma and Wisdom high, at the expense of other investments. Or alternatively (and more often, I think), choosing one of the two: have lots of spells but only buffing/summoning/utility OR have less spells but actually include things which force a saving throw.

2) They retrieve very few spells/day compared to a prepared full caster. For example, a 15th level Spirit Shaman who expects to need today Control Weather, Heal, True Seeing and Summon Nature’s Ally VII must choose only one.

Regardless, the Spirit Shaman is a great class. It has a delightful flavor and the mechanics that support it, without becoming neither too powerful nor too weak at any point. Also, playable at all levels. One of my favorites. :)

dextercorvia
2011-02-04, 12:49 PM
Druid list is good enough, with Spell Compendium & a few other books, that bloodline feats or sand shaper are probably waste of time, since if you want to use those spells, they still take a spell retrieved slot for the day.

Eberron's Initiate feats can be handy, but by and large druid list hardly needs much expanding.

But you aren't expanding the list. You are expanding spells known. Normally a Spirit Shaman knows only the spells retrieved for that day -- that is the real limitation. But increasing spells known increases the number of different spells you can cast each day.

Bloodlines will probably cost two feats, Sand Shaper costs a level of casting -- so I agree those aren't the best choices, but Arcane Preparation does two things for a Spirit Shaman. It gives you the ability to cast Sanctified spells, and you can prepare metamagicked versions of spells retrieved so you don't have to "double up".

nedz
2011-02-04, 12:58 PM
I like the class, though I have to say the Druid spell list has some oddities.
I was looking at Spell Focus (conjuration) for Augment Summoning, a pretty obvious option, but then I tried to work out what Spell Focus (conjuration) bought you. I could find very few conjuration spells with save DCs, which struck me as a little strange given the amount of summoning Druids can do ?

I think its T2, yes you have the flexibility of retrieving different spells each day, but the 3,...,3,2,1 / 3,...,3,1,1 pattern is quite restrictive. Feats like Spontaneous Summoning and Spontaneous Healing might help a little. As would Spontaneous Domain casting (you can get Domains from several PrCs) if you could wrangle it. I couldn't find a way ?

Cieyrin
2011-02-04, 03:28 PM
Something of note is Censure Spirits, between the damage it deals to the save DC, since it uses full class level, not half like most abilities, so you can nuke a lot of things fairly easily. The other Spirit Shaman abilities are really neat as well. It's a shame that a lot of people seem to miss Spirit Shaman when it's a pretty awesome class. One of them hidden gems, I guess. :smallannoyed:

Burnheart
2011-02-04, 06:40 PM
I guess people look at it and see a class with class features that only work against certain enemies and think its not worth it.

Greenish
2011-02-04, 06:46 PM
But you aren't expanding the list. You are expanding spells known.Does that even work if you don't actually have spells known?

Gnaeus
2011-02-04, 06:48 PM
It is really hard to classify. I have heard it called Tier 1, but not a member of the "big 5".

Consider: A sorcerer has a couple of game breaking tricks, but the DM can easily learn them, and compensate. A high level spirit shaman can present a different set of abilities every day (Summoning, Melee, God, Crowd Control, Blasting, Healing, Travel), so he can break encounters differently as he progresses. That is the hallmark of a T1.

HeadlessMermaid
2011-02-04, 07:11 PM
Consider: A sorcerer has a couple of game breaking tricks, but the DM can easily learn them, and compensate. A high level spirit shaman can present a different set of abilities every day (Summoning, Melee, God, Crowd Control, Blasting, Healing, Travel), so he can break encounters differently as he progresses. That is the hallmark of a T1.
That's an odd way to classify, err.. classes.

Doesn't the DM get to see what spells the Spirit Shaman retrieved today? (They're so few, he'll remember them by heart. :smalltongue:) And can't he take that into account? Not sure if he should, but he certainly can.

Besides, the easiest way to break the Spirit Shaman is to make a summoner and call it a day. Anything the Druid can do in that regard, he can do it with only an extra feat (Spontaneous Summoning), and he gets more SNA per day.

However, I think that even a devoted summoner (with Ashbound and Augment and animal growth and all that jazz) is Tier 2 if he doesn't also have the spells at any time for any thing. The Big Five are safe.

Gnaeus
2011-02-04, 07:32 PM
That's an odd way to classify, err.. classes.

I didn't make it up. Look in the old tier threads on Brilliantgameologists. Number of ways to break the game was a big factor in where things fell between t3 & T1


Doesn't the DM get to see what spells the Spirit Shaman retrieved today? (They're so few, he'll remember them by heart. :smalltongue:) And can't he take that into account? Not sure if he should, but he certainly can.


Yeah, but if I am preparing a dungeon or a boss fight, I am thinking about what the party is likely to do. I am unlikely to change it after the fact because the SS took Baleful Polymorph instead of Rapid SNA IV.



However, I think that even a devoted summoner (with Ashbound and Augment and animal growth and all that jazz) is Tier 2 if he doesn't also have the spells at any time for any thing. The Big Five are safe.

T1s don't have spells at any time for any thing. SS can take flamestrike when fighting in the frozen north, cold spells for fire enemies, divinations, utility, or item creation spells when in the city, etc. That is the hallmark of a T1. The Big 5 are still better, which is why I said, T1, but not "Big 5".

And the SS I play is MOSTLY a summoner. But when he doesn't want to be he can do anything else.

FMArthur
2011-02-04, 08:25 PM
The list of preposterously overpowered 'game changer' spells that Druids get is small enough that a Spirit Shaman is unlikely to come up with new and unique ways to break the game every day despite its changing list of spells known. I'm not undervaluing any of those amazing spells, there just aren't a whole lot of them, and for the majority, casting the same ones repeatedly just doesn't provide as much 'bang' as a Druid casting the biggie and then several different spells from the same level. And Druids are already considered to be the T1's leaning furthest from 'magic user' towards 'beatstick' - for things that Spirit Shamans don't even have.

dextercorvia
2011-02-04, 10:38 PM
Does that even work if you don't actually have spells known?

It does have spells known in the text. It knows the spells retrieved.

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 01:01 AM
To be honest does it make a difference if it is tier one or two for our purposes? I thin it is tier 2 since it cannot prepare for a lot of stuff at once that say the druid could.

Yuki Akuma
2011-02-05, 04:34 AM
The Druid spell list is not good enough to make a class Tier 1 on its own.

Druids' class features are so good, they'd be Tier 1 even if their spell list consisted entirely of Produce Flame.

Gnaeus
2011-02-05, 07:24 AM
The Druid spell list is not good enough to make a class Tier 1 on its own.

Someone brings up that myth every Druid discussion. A Shapeshift druid (with Wildshape gimped and no AC) is still a tier 1. The druid list may be the weakest T1 list (although it may not be, plenty of debate on the Cleric v. Druid spell list thread) but is is fully adequate to make a class T1.

FMArthur
2011-02-05, 11:00 AM
No, I do think he's right about the Druid list not being Tier 1 by itself, although very wrong about it meaning nothing at all to Druids. It has big guns, automatically qualifying for Tier 2, but not enough of them that Druids can swap them around and inflict a whole new variety of spell-based disasters on a campaign every day like Wizards and Clerics can, despite being a prepared caster. Its abilities as a beatstick (or pair of beatsticks, or mob of them or whatever) are pretty much unmatched for the amount of investment required, however. Yes, even in tier 1 that stuff actually matters when you have enough of it, and in addition to tier 2 casting.

Remember that the difference between tier 1 and tier 2 is versatility and not power.

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 02:54 PM
Regardless since it cannot make use of all its spells at once (or at least not as many as a druid can) it is less versatile than the druid with just casting. If the two are equal in spell power and the spirit shaman is equal to or weaker than the druid with class features and then it uses a weaker memorization mechanic and spell DCs I think we have a textbook case for a nice tier 2. It is not like tier 2 is a bad thing.

Greenish
2011-02-05, 03:26 PM
It is not like tier 2 is a bad thing.Well, it's still a bit strong for many people's preferences.

Cieyrin
2011-02-05, 04:14 PM
Well, it's still a bit strong for many people's preferences.

You say that like it's a bad thing or something. Just because, out of the box, the class is Tier 2 doesn't mean it'll automatically ream any lesser tiers, it's just that it has the potential to and players of Spirit Shamans should be aware of that. They may want to hold back a little to allow the lesser tiered characters to shine, like any high tier character does from time to time if they want their game to continue to run on a regular, happy basis.

ThunderCat
2011-02-05, 05:40 PM
In most of the groups I've played in, we rarely knew what to expect the next day. The strength of the prepared casters was that they could prepare spells for most eventualities, and spells that usually weren't necessary to cast more than once, whereas the spontaneous casters had to make due with what they knew. In cases like that, a spirit shaman usually worked like a bad spontaneous caster, preparing the same spells every day (the ones that would be most generally useful) but having fewer of them. MAD is a pain too.

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 06:48 PM
Well, it's still a bit strong for many people's preferences.

So can well made sorcerers. The big difference between a sorc and the spirit shaman is that the SS is harder to screw up since if you pick a bad set of spells tomorow you can change it. If we are talking about it being played at its best for ultimate power neither class will have made bad spell choices and so both will be very good. A sorc is tier 2 because it has all the options of a tier 1 it just cannot do all them at once, as many of them at once, or change what it can do. A spirit shaman has many of the same issues except it can change by the day which i snice but it lacks the wide range of spells at once to really shine. I need to find my book but don't favored souls have more spells known per level than a spirit shaman? I know a favored soul cannot change its spells but it could have more tricks ready to go at once and both have similar MAD issues and the FS is firmly tier 2.

nedz
2011-02-05, 07:01 PM
MAD means that they are poorer offensive spellcasters than a Druid; though there are spells for which this is less relevant (eg. Ice Storm).
As has been said: they make better summoners than Druids.
They also make pretty good Gishes. Being spontaneous casters means they can rinse an repeat more easily, and recover from dispels etc. TWFing, Tripping and Grappling can all done very well.
Unlike other spontaneous casters they can change their role on a day by day basis, which allows for some flexibility.
Does this make them T1 ?
I think that they are right on the border.

Greenish
2011-02-05, 07:06 PM
I need to find my book but don't favored souls have more spells known per level than a spirit shaman?Yes, by quite a margin.

I've seen them placed on any tier from 1 to 3, but personally I feel they're tier 2, or somewhere in the grey area between 1 and 2.