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prufock
2011-02-04, 04:09 PM
Is it really as good as its popularity would indicate?

I've never played one, and looking through the class, it seems like a double-arcane Mystic Theurge. Mystic Theurge is widely thought to be a trap, since it delays your spellcasting progression. Ultimate Magus seems to do that as well. It bumps your caster level, but the CL still falls behind where a straight wizard or sorcerer would be.

Augmented Casting, however, is pretty awesome, but I don't know if that's enough to make the class worthwhile.

Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe there's a trick I don't see. Help me out?

Aspenor
2011-02-04, 04:12 PM
A lot of people rely on a flawed interpretation of UM that supposedly allows a pure wizard to progress his wizard level twice with each UM level (or once in the case of the lower casting level levels).

This interpretation is, however, wrong.

Really, though, a UM can be pretty good. You can power up your prepared side's metamagics with your spontaneous side's spells, but doing so will result in chewing through your spells on the spontaneous side fairly quickly.

OzymandiasVolt
2011-02-04, 04:13 PM
Use Practiced Spellcaster to shift the caster level balance to the spontaneous casting side. This will result in you being less behind than normal on the prepared casting side.

And then you get to enjoy Augmented Casting and increased caster level, and fun times will be had by all.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-02-04, 04:16 PM
A lot of people rely on a flawed interpretation of UM that supposedly allows a pure wizard to progress his wizard level twice with each UM level (or once in the case of the lower casting level levels).

This interpretation is, however, wrong.

Really, though, a UM can be pretty good. You can power up your prepared side's metamagics with your spontaneous side's spells, but doing so will result in chewing through your spells on the spontaneous side fairly quickly.

No, not really. Sure, some guides may give that a mention, just due to RAW, but all of them also say "Run it by your DM first, as it's not likely to fly."

That being said, yeah, Beguiler 1/Wizard 4 with Practiced Spellcaster (beguiler) is the answer.

Corronchilejano
2011-02-04, 04:16 PM
RAW: Broken as heck as you can feat-your-way into double advance on spontaneous side.
Spirit-of-the-class: A nice way of combining theoretically-infinite-versatility with increased activity time.

So, all up to what you're looking for/DM ruling.

Aspenor
2011-02-04, 04:18 PM
No, not really. Sure, some guides may give that a mention, just due to RAW, but all of them also say "Run it by your DM first, as it's not likely to fly."

I see it often enough from enough people that I felt it appropriate to say "most."

By RAW you cannot get double progression on either side.

Cyrion
2011-02-04, 04:21 PM
It's not the trap that Mystic Theurge is because it's class abilities that synergize the two sides to some extent. (Heck, it HAS class abilities, an immediate improvement over MT). The ability to use the spontaneous spell slots to power metamagic is actually a pretty nice advantage, though as said above, you can burn through those slots pretty quickly. It also makes a token gesture at catching up your caster levels, though that isn't really a strong selling point. If you're in a campaign where maxing your power isn't crucial, they can be a lot of fun.

prufock
2011-02-04, 04:29 PM
Use Practiced Spellcaster to shift the caster level balance to the spontaneous casting side. This will result in you being less behind than normal on the prepared casting side.

And then you get to enjoy Augmented Casting and increased caster level, and fun times will be had by all.

See, I KNEW there had to be some trick. See if I understand this.
Sorc 1/Wiz 4 - base classes
Effective Spellcasting
Sorc 1/Wiz 5 - UM 1
Sorc 2/Wiz 6
Sorc 3/Wiz 7
Sorc 3/Wiz 8
Sorc 4/Wiz 9
Sorc 5/Wiz 10
Sorc 6/Wiz 10
Sorc 7/Wiz 11
Sorc 8/Wiz 12
Sorc 9/Wiz 13 - UM 10
So at ECL 15 you have Wiz spellcasting at 13, and if you take only classes that advance Wizard casting after that, you do end up able to cast 9th level spells.
Thanks!

Tael
2011-02-04, 04:32 PM
I see it often enough from enough people that I felt it appropriate to say "most."

By RAW you cannot get double progression on either side.

Why not? A wizard is a spontaneous caster with Spontaneous Divination and other feats, I don't see why it couldn't be progressed twice.

Aspenor
2011-02-04, 04:42 PM
Why not? A wizard is a spontaneous caster with Spontaneous Divination and other feats, I don't see why it couldn't be progressed twice.

No, they are not a spontaneous caster with Spontaneous Divination.

The wording for Ultimate Magus progression reads "+1 level of existing spontaneous casting class" and "+1 level of existing prepared casting class."

In order to qualify to be a "spontaneous casting class" (emphasis mine) you must purely cast spells spontaneously.

A wizard with Spontaneous Divination is much like a Druid or Cleric, whom can spontaneously cast certain spells (SNA and Cure, respectively). However, the Druid and Cleric are not spontaneous casting classes. Unearthed Arcana, p. 64, Spontaneous Divine Casters gives rules for changing the Druid and Cleric to be spontaneous casting classes.

It reads:

As a twist on the traditional divine spellcaster, this variant converts the cleric and druid into spontaneous spellcasters.
Mods, let me know if this post violates copyright, since this stuff is all in the SRD I assume it's okay.

By that statement, Druids and Clerics are not spontaneous spellcasters. They may be able to spontaneously CONVERT spells, but they still are not spontaneous casting classes. They do not spontaneously CAST, they spontaneously CONVERT. A spontaneous spellcasting class purely casts spontaneously, they spontaneously cast all of their spells (not just a select few).

So, therefore the Wizard with Spontaneous Divination is also not a spontaneous spellcaster, nor is he a spontaneous casting class. This is because he can only spontaneously convert spells into a certain type of spell. He may enter the PrC, but he receives no benefit from the spontaneous casting class level increases as he has no spontaneous casting class.

Triskavanski
2011-02-04, 04:43 PM
It is a totally awesome class if you focus on casting 1st level spells.

Now that might sound dumb, but consider this..

Force Missle mage PRC

Increases the power of shield spell and magic missile. Throw in Residual magic, and prepare metamagic versions of spells on your prepared side. Then your spontaneous side can benefit without any changes to casting time. Or you can throw off an empowered maximized magic missle with much less metamagic costs.

(The PRC also allows you to get by pesky things that prevent your MM from hitting like shield)

Just a first level MM you will have 7d4+7 damage at cast level 9. You can also change your elemental on the missiles to take advantage of weakness.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-02-04, 04:44 PM
]No, they are not a spontaneous caster with Spontaneous Divination.[/b]

Do they cast spells spontaneously? If yes, then they are a spontaneous caster. However, that being said the general rule from prestige classes, admittedly given to us from the gestalt rules, is that at any one level you cannot gain dual advancement from one prestige class to one other single class.

kestrel404
2011-02-04, 04:49 PM
Why not? A wizard is a spontaneous caster with Spontaneous Divination and other feats, I don't see why it couldn't be progressed twice.


At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you
gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and
spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level
in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous
arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding
the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other
benefit a character of those classes would have gained.

From this text, I would rule (as a GM, giving a completely RAW, not RAI interpretation) that you would advance any class you chose exactly once. If you choose two classes, you raise each class once. If you choose one class twice, you still only raise that class once. And that's a RAW interpretation. Text trumps table.

Wabbajack
2011-02-04, 04:50 PM
Do they cast spells spontaneously? If yes, then they are a spontaneous caster. However, that being said the general rule from prestige classes, admittedly given to us from the gestalt rules, is that at any one level you cannot gain dual advancement from one prestige class to one other single class.

Yes, they are spontaneous casters, he didn't say that they aren't. He said that it would no be a "spontaneous casting class", which is what UM advances.

gkathellar
2011-02-04, 04:50 PM
There are a couple of tricks that let UMs get 19th-level wizard casting, an exceptionally high caster level, and metamagic reduction. The standard method is Beguiler/Wizard/UM with Practiced Spellcaster.

You can also use the precise wording of Sublime Chord in combination with UM to get a CL of 30+.

Aspenor
2011-02-04, 04:53 PM
Do they cast spells spontaneously? If yes, then they are a spontaneous caster.

No, wrong. The ability to convert/cast certain spells spontaneously does not make one a spontaneous spellcaster, or a spontaneous casting class.

prufock
2011-02-04, 04:56 PM
Why not? A wizard is a spontaneous caster with Spontaneous Divination and other feats, I don't see why it couldn't be progressed twice.

I don't see how it would. You'd go from Wizard 6 to Wizard 7. That's +1 level of both a spontaneous and prepared arcane casting class. How does that help?

Edit: Looking over what other people have posted, I think it's pretty clear that the INTENT is to have 2 classes. However, my point is regarding class feature priority. As far as I know, there isn't any. That is, all class features take effect simultaneously when you gain a level.

By this reading, level 2 would increase your spontaneous wizard progression and your prepared wizard progression at the same time, but only +1. That means you don't add +1 level of spontaneous wizard and then add another +1. If you are wizard 6, you get +1 to spontaneous casting and +1 to prepared casting at the same time, so you still only get wiz 7.

If I'm wrong regarding class feature priority, would someone point me to a reference?

Aspenor
2011-02-04, 04:59 PM
I don't see how it would. You'd go from Wizard 5 to Wizard 6. That's +1 level of both a spontaneous and prepared arcane casting class. How does that help?

AKA bonuses of the unnamed type from the same source don't stack?

Another interpretation that makes more sense than double-dipping UM levels.

I approve.

prufock
2011-02-04, 05:06 PM
AKA bonuses of the unnamed type from the same source don't stack?

Another interpretation that makes more sense than double-dipping UM levels.

I approve.

See my edited comment (didn't want to double-post).
Basically my point is that both increases take effect simultaneously. That is, if you are Wiz 6, you don't get +1 spontaneous = Wiz 7 and then +1 prepared = Wiz 8. You get Wiz 6 +1 spontaneous = Wiz 7 and Wiz 6 +1 prepared = Wiz 7.

Tael
2011-02-04, 05:06 PM
I don't see how it would. You'd go from Wizard 5 to Wizard 6. That's +1 level of both a spontaneous and prepared arcane casting class. How does that help?

What? Then you're not applying all the necessary steps in a level up. You add +1 level to a prepared class, and you go from wizard 5 to 6. And then you add 1 level to a spontaneous class, and go from wizard 6 to 7. It's not a bonus, it doesn't need to stack.


Edit: Looking over what other people have posted, I think it's pretty clear that the INTENT is to have 2 classes. However, my point is regarding class feature priority. As far as I know, there isn't any. That is, all class features take effect simultaneously when you gain a level.

By this reading, level 2 would increase your spontaneous wizard progression and your prepared wizard progression at the same time, but only +1. That means you don't add +1 level of spontaneous wizard and then add another +1. If you are wizard 6, you get +1 to spontaneous casting and +1 to prepared casting at the same time, so you still only get wiz 7.

If I'm wrong regarding class feature priority, would someone point me to a reference?

There is no class feature priority section to refer to, and the general rule is that you can apply any kind of changes or bonuses in any order you see fit. What suggests it happens simultaneously?

prufock
2011-02-04, 05:11 PM
What? Then you're not applying all the necessary steps in a level up. You add +1 level to a prepared class, and you go from wizard 5 to 6. And then you add 1 level to a spontaneous class, and go from wizard 6 to 7. It's not a bonus, it doesn't need to stack.

Please see my edited comment where I explain my reasoning. If there is some source that shows it to be incorrect, I'd appreciate a reference so I can look it up.

Triskavanski
2011-02-04, 05:11 PM
The biggest problem is that if a wizard is a prepare class, it is not spontaneous and if it is spontaneous it is not prepared.

Its like trying to be lawful chaotic.

Aspenor
2011-02-04, 05:12 PM
See my edited comment (didn't want to double-post).
Basically my point is that both increases take effect simultaneously. That is, if you are Wiz 6, you don't get +1 spontaneous = Wiz 7 and then +1 prepared = Wiz 8. You get Wiz 6 +1 spontaneous = Wiz 7 and Wiz 6 +1 prepared = Wiz 7.
Fair enough.

What? Then you're not applying all the necessary steps in a level up. You add +1 level to a prepared class, and you go from wizard 5 to 6. And then you add 1 level to a spontaneous class, and go from wizard 6 to 7. It's not a bonus, it doesn't need to stack.
This doesn't change the fact that wizard is not, and can never be, a spontaneous spellcasting class. Spontaneous spellcasting classes cast purely spontaneously with access to their entire spells known list.

Even Alacritous Cogitation does not make the wizard a spontaneous casting class, because the ability only functions once per day. Also, the ability to spontaneously cast does not necessarily make one a spontaneous casting class. Only your class can confer this status, not feats, ACF's, or substitution levels.


The biggest problem is that if a wizard is a prepare class, it is not spontaneous and if it is spontaneous it is not prepared.

Its like trying to be lawful chaotic.
That, too.

It just simply doesn't work, by RAW.

Tael
2011-02-04, 05:16 PM
This doesn't change the fact that wizard is not, and can never be, a spontaneous spellcasting class. Spontaneous spellcasting classes cast purely spontaneously with access to their entire spells known list.

Even Alacritous Cogitation does not make the wizard a spontaneous casting class, because the ability only functions once per day. Also, the ability to spontaneously cast does not necessarily make one a spontaneous casting class. Only your class can confer this status, not feats, ACF's, or substitution levels.


That, too.

It just simply doesn't work, by RAW.

Where are you getting this from? The only definition of a spontaneous casting class is in the PHB Glossary, where is refers to clerics and druids spontaneously swaping out spells for cures/summons. You cannot simply say "This is what X means" without any proof. I read Spontaneous Casting as the ability to, you know, spontaneously cast spells. Not some special thing from a certain class.


The biggest problem is that if a wizard is a prepare class, it is not spontaneous and if it is spontaneous it is not prepared.

Its like trying to be lawful chaotic.

Again, why? Why can't you prepare spells and spontaneously cast them at the same time? They are not mutually exclusive.

Psyren
2011-02-04, 05:27 PM
Maybe I can shed some light on this. From Rules Compendium:


Spontaneous Casting

Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.

The wording of this definition makes it pretty clear that yes, the two are mutually exclusive. If you prepare spells, you are not a "spontaneous spellcaster," as you no longer fit the definition.

Tael
2011-02-04, 05:30 PM
Maybe I can shed some light on this. From Rules Compendium:



The wording of this definition makes it pretty clear that yes, the two are mutually exclusive. If you prepare spells, you are not a "spontaneous spellcaster," as you no longer fit the definition.

I stand corrected. I should really buy the rules compendium, but it seems like such a waste of money (that is, unless one is debating RAW online :smalltongue:).

Yorae
2011-02-04, 05:31 PM
If you prepare spells, you are not a "spontaneous spellcaster," as you no longer fit the definition.

By that interpretation, a Sorcerer who also takes levels in Wizard ceases to be a spontaneous spellcaster.

nightwyrm
2011-02-04, 05:33 PM
Aside from the insane interpretation of +2 caster level per UM level (I'm not debating whether it's right or wrong by RAW, I'm just saying it's insane and falls under the realm of "no sane DM" even if it's ok by RAW), getting a 13/9 split at lv 15 is decent and fun with the special abilities that UM gets. You basically use the spontaneous side to fuel your metamagic for your prep side. But if you don't/can't use the practiced spellcaster CL manipulation and you get yourself a 11/11 split, it's subpar.

Triskavanski
2011-02-04, 05:37 PM
Again, why? Why can't you prepare spells and spontaneously cast them at the same time? They are not mutually exclusive.

Nice strawman there bub.

Yes, you can prepare spells and spontaneously cast spells.

But what you are asking for is for a single class to be both. This is when it does in fact become mutually exclusive, the definition of what kind of caster the caster is.

What defines if a class is spontanous or prepared?

Why that little paragraph for every spellcasting class that starts with the word "Spells"

It is much of the same way that a class usually cannot be both divine and arcane. (The Savant and possibly the Archivist are exceptions to this rule)

Triskavanski
2011-02-04, 05:39 PM
By that interpretation, a Sorcerer who also takes levels in Wizard ceases to be a spontaneous spellcaster.

It is referring to a single classed character of course though.

Tael
2011-02-04, 05:42 PM
Nice strawman there bub.

Yes, you can prepare spells and spontaneously cast spells.

But what you are asking for is for a single class to be both. This is when it does in fact become mutually exclusive, the definition of what kind of caster the caster is.

What defines if a class is spontanous or prepared?

Why that little paragraph for every spellcasting class that starts with the word "Spells"

It is much of the same way that a class usually cannot be both divine and arcane. (The Savant and possibly the Archivist are exceptions to this rule)

1. I suggest you read the material you wish to present as evidence before presenting it. Nowhere in the PHB classes Spells section does it talk about spontaneous casting.

2. Dude, I already admitted I was wrong after Psyren pulled that quote from the rules compendium, stop beating a dead horse.

EDIT: Also, no strawman fallacy here, I was questioning the definition of spontaneous, which was a valid point which needed to be decided. (unfortunately not in my favor, but still relevant)

Keld Denar
2011-02-04, 05:44 PM
If you are Illumian with any Krau sigil combination, you can actually get 19/8 on a UM build. You take Practiced Spellcaster on your spontaneous side, and you can lose up to 6 CLs on the spontaneous side and it'll still be even with the prepared side. Since UM loses 4 spellcaster levels on the spontaneous side, you can ALWAYS advance your prepared side.

Without being Illumian, you end up with 18/9, IIRC, which is slightly less good. Not bad, but less good.

Jothki
2011-02-04, 05:52 PM
It occurs to me that Ultimate Magus itself is arguably a class that has both spontaneous and prepared casting. That's not directly relevant of course, but what if there happened to exist an entirely different PRC that advanced both sides at once in a similar manner? Could Ultimate Magus double up that class?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-02-04, 05:53 PM
The above version of UM is sane and competitive with all but the most powerful Wizard PrCs. Giving up Beguiler spell slots to power metamagic is nifty, and + CL is always nice.

Triskavanski
2011-02-04, 05:56 PM
1. I suggest you read the material you wish to present as evidence before presenting it. Nowhere in the PHB classes Spells section does it talk about spontaneous casting.

2. Dude, I already admitted I was wrong after Psyren pulled that quote from the rules compendium, stop beating a dead horse.

EDIT: Also, no strawman fallacy here, I was questioning the definition of spontaneous, which was a valid point which needed to be decided. (unfortunately not in my favor, but still relevant)

3. He ninja posted me.

4. It has the basic definition of a spontaneous caster. Course I didn't quote the rules book like I should have in addition to the comment about the spell portion of the class.


It occurs to me that Ultimate Magus itself is arguably a class that has both spontaneous and prepared casting. That's not directly relevant of course, but what if there happened to exist an entirely different PRC that advanced both sides at once in a similar manner? Could Ultimate Magus double up that class?

It would be two different sources, so I'd say probably. Otherwise the normal spell casting PrCs I think would loose a lot of power.

nightwyrm
2011-02-04, 05:56 PM
It occurs to me that Ultimate Magus itself is arguably a class that has both spontaneous and prepared casting. That's not directly relevant of course, but what if there happened to exist an entirely different PRC that advanced both sides at once in a similar manner? Could Ultimate Magus double up that class?

I think the standard interpretation here is that UM (and others like it) is not itself a class with any spellcasting. They merely advance other classes' spellcasting. Arguing otherwise grants infinite loops to all double casting advancement PrCs, I think.

Keld Denar
2011-02-04, 06:03 PM
Yea, exactly the reason you can't advance say...Mystic Theurge casting with Ultimate Magus. Mystic Theurge has no casting of its own, it instead advances two other spellcasting PrCs. Only classes with a spells/day or similar table are spellcasting classes. PrCs with "+1 existing spellcaster class" are not.

prufock
2011-02-04, 06:14 PM
In light of this thread, I have to say you folks have done your job. I am sold on Ultimate Magus. Provided, of course, you've got Practiced Spellcaster.

Thanks!

Severus
2011-02-04, 06:32 PM
I'd check with your GM. Practiced spell caster doesn't raise your caster level, it just raises the effective level of your spells. People choose to interpret it as "it give you 4 free caster levels up to your character level", but that is not how I read it, nor how I think most reasonable GMs would read it. It is a very useful feat, but it isn't THAT useful.

So you would not get full advancement in your 'primary' spell casting class just by taking this feat. At least that is how I would rule as a GM.

The whole idea of dual class advances is that you get more, but lose something, namely the highest rank of spells. If your GM lets you crock that, more power to you, but it is a crock.

Aspenor
2011-02-04, 06:39 PM
Technically, Practiced Spellcaster does, indeed, increase your caster level in a spellcasting class. Since caster level is not the same as class level, this normally isn't a big deal.

UM specifically states that, sometimes, you add 1 level to the class with the lowest caster level. Unfortunately, that's the exact text.

So, technically the trick to gain full casting in wizard levels will indeed work, by RAW. You as DM have, as always, the right to houserule a change to make it not work. It will always be a houserule, though. That exploit is not really up for interpretation. The easiest houserule would be to change the UM mechanic to read "the class with the lowest class level."

imperialspectre
2011-02-04, 06:43 PM
I'd check with your GM. Practiced spell caster doesn't raise your caster level, it just raises the effective level of your spells.


Benefit: Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4.

You can make arguments from unknowable intent that has never been discussed publicly by any of the relevant authors if you want, but the RAW is pretty simple. You lose 1 level of spellcasting progression on your prepared side by taking 1 level in another class, and you move on from there.

Psyren
2011-02-04, 06:48 PM
By that interpretation, a Sorcerer who also takes levels in Wizard ceases to be a spontaneous spellcaster.

The character can do both. The classes cannot.

faceroll
2011-02-04, 06:50 PM
That being said, yeah, Beguiler 1/Wizard 4 with Practiced Spellcaster (beguiler) is the answer.

Yeah, that's pretty solid. Oodles of spells.


Really, though, a UM can be pretty good. You can power up your prepared side's metamagics with your spontaneous side's spells, but doing so will result in chewing through your spells on the spontaneous side fairly quickly.

Yeah but who cares. Most theurges are bad because you have a crapton of low level spells that you're not really going to get a whole lot of mileage out of anyway. Being able to make up the difference of a lost level or two by turning spell slots into metamagic is amazing.


Its like trying to be lawful chaotic.

That's actually pretty easy. Paladin Tanari. Done.



Maybe I can shed some light on this. From Rules Compendium:



The wording of this definition makes it pretty clear that yes, the two are mutually exclusive. If you prepare spells, you are not a "spontaneous spellcaster," as you no longer fit the definition.

If you used Uncanny Forethought, I think you could get a wizard to qualify for those criteria. The criteria themselves don't appear to be mutually exclusive.

Aspenor
2011-02-04, 06:59 PM
Yeah but who cares. Most theurges are bad because you have a crapton of low level spells that you're not really going to get a whole lot of mileage out of anyway. Being able to make up the difference of a lost level or two by turning spell slots into metamagic is amazing.
It's good. I wouldn't say it's "amazing."



If you used Uncanny Forethought, I think you could get a wizard to qualify for those criteria. The criteria themselves don't appear to be mutually exclusive.

No, it doesn't work like that. As Psyren's quote shows, it is impossible for a pure wizard to be considered as being a "spontaneous spellcaster" or having a "spontaneous casting class." They are mutually exclusive. Uncanny Forethought also does not change the type of spellcaster you are.

faceroll
2011-02-04, 07:15 PM
It's good. I wouldn't say it's "amazing."

Free metamagic is pretty pro.


No, it doesn't work like that. As Psyren's quote shows, it is impossible for a pure wizard to be considered as being a "spontaneous spellcaster" or having a "spontaneous casting class." They are mutually exclusive. Uncanny Forethought also does not change the type of spellcaster you are.

"Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters."

Uncanny Forethought allows a wizard to meet the following criteria:
cast spells
don’t need spellbooks
cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots

The contradiction seems to be:
nor do they prepare their spells

However, the feat Arcane Preparation allows a Sorcerer or other Spontaneous Caster to prepare spells modified with metamagic. If you are a sorcerer with Arcane Preparation, are you no longer a Spontaneous Spellcaster?

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-02-04, 07:25 PM
Technically, Practiced Spellcaster does, indeed, increase your caster level in a spellcasting class. Since caster level is not the same as class level, this normally isn't a big deal.

UM specifically states that, sometimes, you add 1 level to the class with the lowest caster level. Unfortunately, that's the exact text.

So, technically the trick to gain full casting in wizard levels will indeed work, by RAW. You as DM have, as always, the right to houserule a change to make it not work. It will always be a houserule, though. That exploit is not really up for interpretation. The easiest houserule would be to change the UM mechanic to read "the class with the lowest class level."


You can make arguments from unknowable intent that has never been discussed publicly by any of the relevant authors if you want, but the RAW is pretty simple. You lose 1 level of spellcasting progression on your prepared side by taking 1 level in another class, and you move on from there.


Actually, at one point, I believe either an FAQ or CustServ - potentially both - said that Practiced Spellcaster on one side was more than legit to advance the other more.


Hmm... all this talk of Prepared vs Spontaneous kind of makes me want to make some weird Wu Jen/Wizard UM or Archivist/Wizard combo, but the odds of either working with a DM or minimal, sadly.

Psyren
2011-02-04, 07:29 PM
However, the feat Arcane Preparation allows a Sorcerer or other Spontaneous Caster to prepare spells modified with metamagic. If you are a sorcerer with Arcane Preparation, are you no longer a Spontaneous Spellcaster?

I was waiting for someone to mention that, but didn't do so myself to keep the issue simple :smallamused:

Arcane Preparation is a specific exception to the general rule. You can tell a feat is an exception to a rule when it has a "Normal:" line in its rules text. In Arcane Preparation's case, the text calls out sorcerers and bards as spellcasters who do not prepare spells. Thus Arcane Preparation itself defines them as spontaneous spellcasters.

This limited ability to prepare spells does not make a sorcerer into a prepared spellcaster, any more than the limited ability of clerics to spontaneously cast heal spells makes them spontaneous spellcasters. If it did, then they would actually cease to qualify for the Arcane Preparation feat!

Aspenor
2011-02-04, 07:30 PM
Uncanny Forethought only works on a limited number of spells. So wizards with Uncanny Forethought still need spellbooks.

And no, a sorcerer with Arcane Preparation is still a spontaneous spellcaster.

Why, you ask?

Because feats don't matter for determining whether you are a prepared or spontaneous spellcasting class. You look at the class itself with total disregard for any feats the character has, examine the mechanic through which the class functions (not the character), and make the judgement there.

Grim Reader
2011-02-04, 08:53 PM
You cannot use Spontaneous Diviner, et al. to double up on raising your Wizard levels with UM.

I do belive however, that it will let you qualify for UM before you take a level in a spontaneous class. That means that you can burn through the single-advancement first UM level before taking your first spont class level.

On a slightly related note, I have been wondering if UM will advance Warlock invocations and blast?

Aspenor
2011-02-05, 12:14 AM
Actually, at one point, I believe either an FAQ or CustServ - potentially both - said that Practiced Spellcaster on one side was more than legit to advance the other more.

I didn't say it wasn't legit, I just said that a DM may choose not to allow it (as they always have the right to do).

FMArthur
2011-02-05, 12:40 AM
Uncanny Forethought never comes out as saying you cast spontaneously. You can take it to mean the same thing, but you really are best using things that specifically use the keyword 'spontaneous'. Alacritous Cogitation, the poor-man's Uncanny Forethought, actually does say you cast spontaneously though, so one could use that to argue that UF means it.

Anyway, on Ultimate Magus: it looks like the oft-demanded arcane/arcane hybrid prestige class, but it really will wreck you if you try to use it as such. Practically speaking, it is normally played as a build for a prepared caster to get lots of extra low-level spells, a small caster level boost, a couple metamagic feats and some strong metamagic reduction for your low-level spells. The benefits aren't spectacular given the cost, but it isn't too weak, has its own niche and is a desirable option for lots of players. This is for optimized entry using Practiced Spellcaster and possibly dictating your race as Illumian (no other easy CL boosters?). Again, if you take it for what it initially appears to be, it will fail and leave you a hopeless shell of a caster rather than the confluence of arcane powers you wanted.

gorfnab
2011-02-05, 02:42 AM
I'm surprised this thread has gone this far without mention of CL abuse when you combine Master Spellthief with Ultimate Magus.

Grim Reader
2011-02-06, 05:46 PM
On a slightly related note, I have been wondering if UM will advance Warlock invocations and blast?

Sorry to bump, but before I got to bed...anyone got an opinion on this?

It'd unlock some interesting theurge builds possible, I think. The pro position is that Warlocks are specifically stated to get advancement of "+1 arcane spellcasting" features.

The con is that UMs features has the additional requirement of adding to prepared or spontaneous casting.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-02-06, 07:10 PM
I didn't say it wasn't legit, I just said that a DM may choose not to allow it (as they always have the right to do).

Yeah, but that's not unlike a DM saying that your Fighter 10/Horizon Walker 1 doesn't get a third iterative attack due to Horizon Walker only giving "+1 BAB."

balistafreak
2011-02-06, 07:11 PM
I'm surprised this thread has gone this far without mention of CL abuse when you combine Master Spellthief with Ultimate Magus.

Elaborate, please. I'm intrigued as to what side of the line this trick falls on: the OMGWTFBBQ side or still 'just' Tier 1. :smallbiggrin:

tonberrian
2011-02-06, 07:31 PM
Also remember that the free metamagic works both ways, so you can (for example) Persist low level spells from the side with less spell levels.

Fishy
2011-02-06, 08:12 PM
Master Spellthief makes all of your arcane spellcasting classes stack when determining your caster level. For the cost of a feat and a class level, you don't need Practiced Spellcaster, and don't have to be an Illumian.

The zomgwtfbbqtier1 aspect of this trick is that Ultimate Magus makes the sum of your arcane caster levels a lot higher than your character level. Master Spellthief specifically points to 'levels of other arcane spellcasting classes', which is different from Caster Level. Maybe.



The other fun thing to do with UM is use it to advance Master Trapsmith or Nar Demonbinder casting.

navar100
2011-02-06, 08:40 PM
The Practiced Spellcaster feat trick works. It's not a "Gotcha, you stupid DM." It's not "I Win D&D". It's a smart choice of optimization, and it is not a sin of all mankind for a player to use it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-06, 08:51 PM
I'd just like to add that with the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon you can spend two of your spontaneous spell slots to cast a spell one level higher that you've learned via your prepared casting class. You can pick up some extremely situational spells with Wizard and never prepare them, because if you ever need to cast them you can do so spontaneously by spending Beguiler spell slots.

SiuiS
2011-02-06, 09:02 PM
I stand corrected. I should really buy the rules compendium, but it seems like such a waste of money (that is, unless one is debating RAW online :smalltongue:).

It's not. It's really not. It's a bland read, and some of the categorizing is counter intuitive, but the Rules Compendium was one of the most solid buys I've ever made for 3.5.

Hypothesis: can you use a spontaneous arcane class to qualify for ur priest, use alternate source spell to qualify for ultimate magus, and then break the dm?

sreservoir
2011-02-06, 09:07 PM
I'd just like to add that with the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon you can spend two of your spontaneous spell slots to cast a spell one level higher that you've learned via your prepared casting class. You can pick up some extremely situational spells with Wizard and never prepare them, because if you ever need to cast them you can do so spontaneously by spending Beguiler spell slots.

versatile spellcaster doesn't even specify what kind of spell you have to lose. if you take spontaneous divination at 5, you can take versatile at 6 and cast all your spells spontaneously.

SiuiS
2011-02-06, 09:33 PM
Master Spellthief makes all of your arcane spellcasting classes stack when determining your caster level. For the cost of a feat and a class level, you don't need Practiced Spellcaster, and don't have to be an Illumian.

The zomgwtfbbqtier1 aspect of this trick is that Ultimate Magus makes the sum of your arcane caster levels a lot higher than your character level. Master Spellthief specifically points to 'levels of other arcane spellcasting classes', which is different from Caster Level. Maybe.

man, that's insane. I must use this.
Epic level 20 fey/28 ultimate magus with several casting options; bard CL 200, Sublime Chorde CL 200, wizard CL 96, collapsing into an unstoppable singularity of spell-might!

Grim Reader
2011-02-07, 01:24 AM
I'd just like to add that with the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon you can spend two of your spontaneous spell slots to cast a spell one level higher that you've learned via your prepared casting class. You can pick up some extremely situational spells with Wizard and never prepare them, because if you ever need to cast them you can do so spontaneously by spending Beguiler spell slots.


versatile spellcaster doesn't even specify what kind of spell you have to lose. if you take spontaneous divination at 5, you can take versatile at 6 and cast all your spells spontaneously.

I don't think that works...prepared casters don't have "spells known", I don't think. There was a discussion about it years ago on the Wizards board. However, if you take a level of Sand Shaper, the Desert Insight feature should add the spells to all your classes. Once your prepared caster class can cast higher level spells than the spont class, you can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast Desert Insight spells of that level.

Gametime
2011-02-07, 01:49 AM
No, they are not a spontaneous caster with Spontaneous Divination.

The wording for Ultimate Magus progression reads "+1 level of existing spontaneous casting class" and "+1 level of existing prepared casting class."

In order to qualify to be a "spontaneous casting class" (emphasis mine) you must purely cast spells spontaneously.

A wizard with Spontaneous Divination is much like a Druid or Cleric, whom can spontaneously cast certain spells (SNA and Cure, respectively). However, the Druid and Cleric are not spontaneous casting classes. Unearthed Arcana, p. 64, Spontaneous Divine Casters gives rules for changing the Druid and Cleric to be spontaneous casting classes.

It reads:

Mods, let me know if this post violates copyright, since this stuff is all in the SRD I assume it's okay.

By that statement, Druids and Clerics are not spontaneous spellcasters. They may be able to spontaneously CONVERT spells, but they still are not spontaneous casting classes. They do not spontaneously CAST, they spontaneously CONVERT. A spontaneous spellcasting class purely casts spontaneously, they spontaneously cast all of their spells (not just a select few).

So, therefore the Wizard with Spontaneous Divination is also not a spontaneous spellcaster, nor is he a spontaneous casting class. This is because he can only spontaneously convert spells into a certain type of spell. He may enter the PrC, but he receives no benefit from the spontaneous casting class level increases as he has no spontaneous casting class.


Uncanny Forethought only works on a limited number of spells. So wizards with Uncanny Forethought still need spellbooks.

And no, a sorcerer with Arcane Preparation is still a spontaneous spellcaster.

Why, you ask?

Because feats don't matter for determining whether you are a prepared or spontaneous spellcasting class. You look at the class itself with total disregard for any feats the character has, examine the mechanic through which the class functions (not the character), and make the judgement there.

Regardless of whether a wizard can double dip from Ultimate Magus, your arguments aren't really founded on any sort of solid evidence. You make a lot of assertions about what it means for a class to be a spontaneous caster, and a lot of assertions about how it has to be "pure," and as far as I can tell none of that is backed up by actual text.

I don't think you're wrong about what Ultimate Magus can and cannot do, but I think you're wrong about why that is the case.