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View Full Version : Brainstorming: So I want to start a country...



Kobold Esq
2011-02-04, 11:19 PM
Background: I'm currently playing in a 3.5 FR game set in Unther during the Mulhorandi invasion. I'm enjoying my current character, but I want to plan my backup character so that if something untoward should occur, I can just jump back into game as soon as possible.


The Goal: The character will be a low level (2) adventurer who decides to take advantage of the chaos in Unther to carve out a chunk of the countryside for himself. He doesn't want to become a despot, but maybe just have a small city state to call his own. He plans to stay as neutral as possible in the Unther/Mulhorandi war, and hopefully act as a Casablanca or Switzerland, profiting from both sides, if possible.

The Dilemma: I can't decide what class to play! There are all sorts of possibilities. Your standard fighter becoming a warlord? A paladin spreading good and creating a haven for refugees and freed slaves? A cleric establishing a theocracy to spread his religion?

What I'd like from the community: Just give me your ideas for builds with a short 1 to 2 sentence explanation attached to them about why that particular character would be well suited to carving out his own chunk of the Lost Empires for himself.

Construction rules: Some of these are campaign imposed, some are just what I'd like to see in the build
32 Point buy
PHB, PHB2, Complete series, FR books, Unearthed Arcana (at least for class variants) (other sources MIGHT be available on case by case basis, but assume this is the limit for now)
Traits and Flaws in use. Also characters get one free FR regional feat.
Not a wizard/sorcerer/squishy class. I'm currently playing a wizard and I want something different for this. Medium squishy classes like bards and warlocks are probably fine.
Race: Human, or something human-like enough that common Untherites wouldn't react excessively negatively to his presence.
Ideally a decent charisma (14+) and Leadership. Diplomacy/Sense Motive would be ideal as well, but not absolutely required.
Probably good aligned, but I'd settle for "Benevolent Self-Interest" neutral. I want the people to come to my city because they want to be there, and because they respect me as a leader.
Must be a playable adventuring build starting at level 2.




The More Important Part!: I also need recommendations for how to best go about doing this. I think I can rely on freed slaves and refugees as an initial source of population. If we promise them a place of relative safety, they may be willing to follow our (my) leadership, just because it is better than being a slave in Mulhorand or a refugee in Unther. I need recommendations for quickly fortifying an area, as well as food production and the like to keep the peasants happy.

arguskos
2011-02-04, 11:27 PM
Honestly, I'd avoid overt movement for now. With the current conflict in Mulhorand and Unther, and nearby Chessenta's despot Tchazzar having come back from death recently, that specific area is a powder keg. My suggestion for your character, no matter the build or whatever, is to wait for the situation to stabilize, insinuate yourself into the power structure of one of the non-Mulhorand governments, then take it over using internal pressure.

My suggestion for the government you need to hijack is Free Unther. They're already unstable, due to the invasion, and looking for anyone to step up and help out. Get involved, take over from the inside, then strike a deal with Mulhorand for peace and some land.

You *need* to prevent Mulhorand from saying "gee, he looks like a threat, let's go kill him" since they will do that if you get too bold. Chessenta under Tchazzar is a similar danger. I wouldn't recommend trying to conquer them, unless you can find a way to handle the Red Dragon of Chessenta (good luck with that).

Finally, Thay is a concern. Be watchful of them as well.

EDIT: I should make it clear that your build is of little real importance. Instead, you have to play the political game. A Diviner would be best for that mechanically, so if this is shaping up to be that style of game, play a Wizard with Spontaneous Divination and go to town.

Kobold Esq
2011-02-04, 11:48 PM
I agree that my city goals are 95% RP oriented, and mechanics don't have a lot to do with that. However the mechanics side is more of a "what could I play which goes along with my RP goals, but is still useful in the party."

I don't foresee myself toppling any existing governments. I imagined just trying to establish some tiny little city state off on my own somewhere. I agree there will be a number of challenges, including both the Mulhorandi and what is left of the Untherite nobles.

I'm hoping diplomacy could win the day to avoid bloodshed if I (and my fellow adventurers/allies) were strong enough that a show of force would let the Mulhorandi think that we were too much of a nuisance to try to conquer. Ditto the heads of the various Unther factions are busy fighting for control of their own cities, I'm hoping that I won't attract too much attention from them until I have time to establish a power base.

I'm also not too worried about outsiders because they would have to come through Unther or Mulhorand to get to me, which serves as some layer of protection. If anything, I'm hoping Thayans would cut a deal with me to make use of my location for a strategic alliance, assuming I have anything of value to offer them.

I will however edit the OP.

arguskos
2011-02-05, 12:07 AM
I agree that my city goals are 95% RP oriented, and mechanics don't have a lot to do with that. However the mechanics side is more of a "what could I play which goes along with my RP goals, but is still useful in the party."
A Wizard focused on divinations would be my first stop here.

Second stop: a Cleric so you can establish a theocracy and call upon the faith for support. The issue is which god. There's very few that would support this behavior (functionally becoming a dictator, if benevolent, over someone else's land). If you're evil, Bane might be cool with it, but the Black Network probably wouldn't be, since they'd want to control it instead of you. I could see maybe someone like Helm being alright with it, if you served as a "guardian" power, a peace-keeper of sorts.


I don't foresee myself toppling any existing governments. I imagined just trying to establish some tiny little city state off on my own somewhere. I agree there will be a number of challenges, including both the Mulhorandi and what is left of the Untherite nobles.
Just founding a city? That's a different story. I read the OP as more of a "I want a country like a dale", which is a bigger issue and a lot of land, causing issues.


I'm hoping diplomacy could win the day to avoid bloodshed if I (and my fellow adventurers/allies) were strong enough that a show of force would let the Mulhorandi think that we were too much of a nuisance to try to conquer. Ditto the heads of the various Unther factions are busy fighting for control of their own cities, I'm hoping that I won't attract too much attention from them until I have time to establish a power base.
Unther is busy fighting itself, that's true.

Mulhorand isn't. Mulhorand can and will eradicate you. See, they've got an army and a pantheon of gods on their side. You *have* to make peace with them in order for this to work. They're an expansionist power with a strong military, after all, and you're around four guys.

Even if you somehow unified what's left of Unther, you're still hopelessly out-numbered and out-gunned. You can't fight Mulhorand, so you have to be tricky about this if it's gonna work, and why make what you can steal, right? :smallamused:


I'm also not too worried about outsiders because they would have to come through Unther or Mulhorand to get to me, which serves as some layer of protection. If anything, I'm hoping Thayans would cut a deal with me to make use of my location for a strategic alliance, assuming I have anything of value to offer them.
You should be worried about them. Check your map again. Chessenta is RIGHT next door to Unther, and it wouldn't stop Tchazzar anyways if he got in a killing mood, what with being a red dragon and the favored of Tiamat and everything.

Thay may strike a deal with you, but that brings some new issues:
1. Algarond, who dislikes Thay a great deal, is right across the bay from Unther. If you strike a deal with Thay, Algarond may strike out at you to prevent Thay from gaining yet more territory and partially surrounding them.
2. Everyone who dislikes Thay, most notably the Harpers, are now your enemies. The Harpers aren't to be trifled with.
3. Thay itself! Thay is a very evil, very powerful state. They may well just decide that, once you're milked for everything you're worth, to take over and get rid of you.

Your best bet is to gain the patronage of a powerful group, such as Mulhorand or a major faith, and hope they are strong enough to dissuade the locals long enough for you to set-up a strong nation. That's why my suggestion is subterfuge. Free Unther is so desperate right now, they'll accept anyone. If you take over slowly, then offer Mulhorand peace in exchange for your own sovereignty and protection by them, you stand the chance to actually be able to set things up safely, and once you're powerful enough (both personally and politically), you can declare actual independence from Mulhorand's influence. From there, you can assuage Thay via granting an enclave, perhaps in Messemprar (current "capital" of Free Unther), and you can make nice at Chessenta... somehow.

Remember: Unther is basically an anarchy currently, and Mulhorand does not brook uprisings or whatnot. Use the division to your advantage to slowly control an already-extant region, and then end the bloodshed. If you can take over Messemprar and establish peace, then you're a hero to the locals! You're the guys who stopped the war, gave them some safety! That's a morale boost money can't buy, and that's the sort of thing you need to make it work.

Kobold Esq
2011-02-05, 01:24 AM
I just assumed that taking over an existing place would be even more work/trouble of its own kind. It isn't like Mulhorand will stop its invasion just because a new face takes over. Also as a low level guy, carving out a tiny chunk of the countryside seemed like a more plausible short term goal.

I just want a small little city state that will be left alone. :(

This may be more difficult than I first imagined it would be, but I will be up to the task!

arguskos
2011-02-05, 02:02 AM
I just assumed that taking over an existing place would be even more work/trouble of its own kind. It isn't like Mulhorand will stop its invasion just because a new face takes over. Also as a low level guy, carving out a tiny chunk of the countryside seemed like a more plausible short term goal.
Actually, it's easier. Think about it. If you join up with Free Unther, you can make use of all their infrastructure to get where you want to go. At some point, during your meteoric rise through the ranks, you secretly contact Mulhorand and inform them that when you take over Unther, you will sign a peace accord with them immediately that formally gives them control of all land they currently hold, and cements Free Unther as a unique free state. The war is over, you are now trade partners, everyone's happy! And all it took from you was some backstabbing.


I just want a small little city state that will be left alone. :(
The "left alone" is the issue. :smallwink:


This may be more difficult than I first imagined it would be, but I will be up to the task!
Of course! You're an adventurer!

Kobold Esq
2011-02-05, 02:23 AM
Actually, it's easier. Think about it. If you join up with Free Unther, you can make use of all their infrastructure to get where you want to go. At some point, during your meteoric rise through the ranks, you secretly contact Mulhorand and inform them that when you take over Unther, you will sign a peace accord with them immediately that formally gives them control of all land they currently hold, and cements Free Unther as a unique free state. The war is over, you are now trade partners, everyone's happy! And all it took from you was some backstabbing.

While possibly effective, that doesn't really fit the flavor of what I was hoping for.

If anything, that probably fits my current character better. (Thayan Beguiler/Wizard, worshiper of Shar) She wouldn't put herself in charge, as she doesn't want to deal with repercussions of having a target on her back. But she'd happily serve as an adviser.

arguskos
2011-02-05, 02:38 AM
While possibly effective, that doesn't really fit the flavor of what I was hoping for.

If anything, that probably fits my current character better. (Thayan Beguiler/Wizard, worshiper of Shar) She wouldn't put herself in charge, as she doesn't want to deal with repercussions of having a target on her back. But she'd happily serve as an adviser.
Well, I'm trying to figure out a way to do it that keeps you out of the line of fire long enough to actually succeed. I mean, you're setting up a city-state here. That's not easily done, especially in that area of the world. If this was the Western Heartlands, hell, you could just FOUND a damn town and call it a day. In Unther, stuff's a little harder, due to the whole "Mulhorand is an aggressive expansionist power" thing.

If you're willing to range a little afield, Chessenta could be a viable realm for the creation of a city-state, assuming you can somehow slip under Cimbar's radar, since Tchazzar would likely absorb any new city that springs up into his Chessentan Empire, now that he's back in charge (cause really, what's a little death to a red dragon, mirite?). Could work though, if you set up maybe along the edge of occupied Unther and Chessenta, sorta in that fuzzy area.

If you're willing to range even FURTHER afield, there's a few other candidate areas that could be good:
-Murghom: This one has the benefit of already being semi-autonomous from Mulhorand, sorta avoiding the entire issue of the expansionist power entirely. You'd technically be a vassal power though, which might not be to your liking.
-Chondath: This is kinda far away (western side of Chessenta), but it's already a laid-back place, welcoming of trade and travelers from far-off lands. You could set up a town here with little issue, assuming you avoided antagonizing the locals, which shouldn't be tough. Don't kick in their doors, guns ablazin', and you should be good. It's a hike though.
-Sespech: South-east of Chondath, so even further away. It's technically a barony, so you'd need Baron Thuragar's approval, but once you get that, you should have no trouble setting up a small city-state. You even get to participate in the barony's government, if you're into that.

I still like the "take over Free Unther" idea, but that's just me. There's options, though. If you're feeling bold, you could just straight-up make a deal with Mulhorand directly for some land and a town. Don't know how that'd play out, but I guess it's an option.

Kobold Esq
2011-02-05, 03:02 AM
Well the location can't really be helped, just because that is where the game is being set. DM is putting a lot of work into the area, so it isn't like I can say "hey entire rest of party, lets abandon DM's plans that we all joined this game for and do something else entirely!"


I can see the appeal in trying to get into a position of authority with any of the factions vying for control in Free Unther, and then cutting a deal with Mulhorand to end the war and keep the tiny bit of it that I can get control over. I would probably want to do it after leading a populist uprising to try to sweep out the old regime (the Northern Wizards will be difficult to get rid of, but I would hope they would just let me be a figure head as long as I assured them that they could retain their status of being "bad asses").


Looks like...

Option 1: New character, be charismatic, lead uprising while secretly cutting a deal with Mulhorand. If they leave me alone while I arrange the rebellion, and let me have Messemprar and some chunk of the surrounding Free Unther to myself, I would make sure Untherites don't stop them in their future expansion. (At least for now)

Option 2: New character, try to claw out a tiny freehold somewhere out of the way of the main Mulhorandi advance. Hopefully by the time they notice me, I can swing a deal with them where they let me be and leave me nominally in charge as long as I tithe to them or something.

Option 3: Current character, help Free Unther stave off certain defeat at the hands of Mulhorand, and try to get myself a position of power in whatever regime emerges. This one sounds appealing, but has some RP drawbacks. I'm currently playing a Thayan apprentice to a Red Wizard. If I actually got a position of power, Thay would totally come calling and I'd have to deal with them sooner rather than later.

arguskos
2011-02-05, 03:20 AM
Well the location can't really be helped, just because that is where the game is being set. DM is putting a lot of work into the area, so it isn't like I can say "hey entire rest of party, lets abandon DM's plans that we all joined this game for and do something else entirely!"
Yeah, that's an issue. Still, good to keep in your back-pocket, just in case, right?


I can see the appeal in trying to get into a position of authority with any of the factions vying for control in Free Unther, and then cutting a deal with Mulhorand to end the war and keep the tiny bit of it that I can get control over. I would probably want to do it after leading a populist uprising to try to sweep out the old regime (the Northern Wizards will be difficult to get rid of, but I would hope they would just let me be a figure head as long as I assured them that they could retain their status of being "bad asses").
The Northern Wizards are the biggest issue, but if you spin the "this is for peace" angle, they might roll with it.


Option 1: New character, be charismatic, lead uprising while secretly cutting a deal with Mulhorand. If they leave me alone while I arrange the rebellion, and let me have Messemprar and some chunk of the surrounding Free Unther to myself, I would make sure Untherites don't stop them in their future expansion. (At least for now)
This would work. It has more risk, due to being a double-cross, but them's the breaks. Nothing's risk-free, sadly. I support this course of action though.


Option 2: New character, try to claw out a tiny freehold somewhere out of the way of the main Mulhorandi advance. Hopefully by the time they notice me, I can swing a deal with them where they let me be and leave me nominally in charge as long as I tithe to them or something.
I don't support this one. The idea of just staking a claim in Unther, which is occupied by Mulhorand currently, is basically saying "hey Mulhorand, suck it, this is my land now", which on the scale of bad ideas is around the level of tying salmon to your genitals and waving them at a brown bear yelling "bet you'd like some salmon, huh?" and winking suggestively. If you can't tell from the hyperbole, I think this one's a bit risky. :smallwink:


Option 3: Current character, help Free Unther stave off certain defeat at the hands of Mulhorand, and try to get myself a position of power in whatever regime emerges. This one sounds appealing, but has some RP drawbacks. I'm currently playing a Thayan apprentice to a Red Wizard. If I actually got a position of power, Thay would totally come calling and I'd have to deal with them sooner rather than later.
Actually, if you're clever, you can use this to great advantage. See, Thay is a political nightmare, with everyone vying against everyone all the time. If you have a new scrap of land, you can use it to propel yourself to high ranks of power, perhaps founding a new tharch and you could be it's tharchion! That's close to being a zulkir, and there's even precedent for being both (Aznar Thrul, zulkir of evocation, is also tharchion of Priador). What an advantage in thayan politics!

What's your specialty as a mage?

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 03:26 AM
A bard/warblade would be good if you can take anything from TOB.

Both together would allow you to boost a lot of troops making you known as a great leader of people. This comb also gives you great access to social skills and magic to protect you in more subtle combats (diplomacy and court struggles). It is thematic and strong. Warchanter would also be a good option as it would make you into a warrior bard on its own and it gives you double song and hefty bonuses.

Kobold Esq
2011-02-05, 03:27 AM
I'm a conjurer mainly for mechanical reasons. I didn't want a familiar, so I wanted to be able to trade it for something useful (in this case, Abrupt Jaunt immediate magic). Also it was the only school that I knew for a fact I could always come up with one spell per level that would be useful each day.

There is one added wrinkle if I try to play nice with Thay: half of the party will probably want to kill me. Currently 3 out of the other 5 party members know I'm Thayan, and 1 of those 3 is strongly in favor of playing "pin the dagger on the neck". Not sure they'd go along with the plan if they knew I was going to make deals with Thay.

Of course they wouldn't have to KNOW I was going to do that...

The two options are "become part of Thay" which most of the populace would probably be against. There are few options worse for the common man and slaves than Unther/Mulhorand. Thay is probably one of them. That would be a tough sell unless I could get some Thayan enforcers.

The second option which would probably be more palatable is "cut deal with Mulhorand, then cut second deal with Thay for them to prop up my small country, and try to sell it to my party members as "enemy of my enemy" sort of stuff.

Kobold Esq
2011-02-05, 03:28 AM
A bard/warblade would be good if you can take anything from TOB.

Both together would allow you to boost a lot of troops making you known as a great leader of people. This comb also gives you great access to social skills and magic to protect you in more subtle combats (diplomacy and court struggles). It is thematic and strong. Warchanter would also be a good option as it would make you into a warrior bard on its own and it gives you double song and hefty bonuses.

1: Yay another kobold!

2: Unfortunately ToB is out for this game. Though a melee bard would not be a terrible idea, if I could get a build that fits my restrictions.

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 03:28 AM
You could tell them that it is a ruse to buy you time so you can mess up Thays plans later when you are stronger.

Kobold Esq
2011-02-05, 03:33 AM
You could tell them that it is a ruse to buy you time so you can mess up Thays plans later when you are stronger.

I don't think I could sell the "make me a Thayan noble!" to the rest of the party.

I could probably sell "let's make a deal with Thay so they will help prevent Mulhorand from stomping our faces in!"

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 03:35 AM
1: Yay another kobold!

2: Unfortunately ToB is out for this game. Though a melee bard would not be a terrible idea, if I could get a build that fits my restrictions.

Lets see a bard/warchanter can give you some nice stuff

1) You can boost inspire courage

2) Make yourself have the dragonblood subtype this will open dragonfire inspiration. Think of your group all getting a fist full of d6s of sonic damage on every attack (dragon magic). Too bad you cannot find and use an artifact in Eberron as it would double your bonus and apply it to your full army!

3) You can use your minor level spells and UMD to boost your inspire courage and other stuff.

4) at warchanter 10 you can give your entire group the BAB of your best warrior and have two songs up at once (warchanter is in complete warrior).

5) You will have the skills to keep yourself up to date in court (social skills and knowledge skills for the win).

6) You will be a decent warrior and buffer.

You just need to figure out your last five levels.

ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY KOBOLDS!

Kobold Esq
2011-02-05, 02:09 PM
First I want to thank Arguskos for all the effort put in last night with the background and FR related concerns.


Meepo: I like the bard idea, especially if I decide to do a populist revolt. He'd probably make a great charismatic leader. I'd probably play him primarily as a melee bard. What would you recommend as an entry to warchanter? Bard 4 / Something +1 BAB 1 / Warchanter 10 / Something else 5 ?

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 03:19 PM
Normally I would recommend warblade or crusader but since those are not doable take a level of fighter fill prerequisites or paladin if you like that flavor (fighter is better if you really are optimizing). Barbarian is good if you like the raging flavor or are ever planning to pick up charging tricks (you will not have the feats to pick up all the normal charging tricks unless you spend your last levels getting bonus feats). Swashbuckler will give you BAB and weapon finesse if you need it and skills). So that one level can be many things though the simple answer is fighter if nothing else intrigues you.

Your last 5 levels should probably be spent on a class that improves bardic music such as bard or a bard prc though you have some time to prepare for that.

Some stuff you will want

1) Song of the heart-its from Eberron though it has no flavor intrinsic to eberron so try to get it. It will improve your songs.

2) there is an inspiration spell in complete adventurer that improves your inspire courage.

3) Dragon fire inspiration is in dragon magic. If you want to deal elemental damage outside of fire you will need more feats (one for dragonblood subtype and another to take a dragon heritage feat in the element you want).

4) Extend song can be useful later as you can sing two songs and then use your next turn to sing another two songs. With extend song those 4 songs will last the rest of combat which can be amazing for your melee guys. You could have inspire courage, dragonfire inspiration, inspire recklessness, and inspire legion.

6) If you are going to play a good character and you feel the need to be absolutely ridiculous you could pick up words of creation from the book of exalted deeds. it will double your songs bonuses on inspire courage. Not necessary and overkill in a typical game but if you really need more power it will serve well.

7) See if you can convince your DM to either have you quest for or quest to build the artifact Ghaal'duur, the Mighty Dirge. This artifact is a horn that will allow you to boost an entire army with inspire courage (and it boosts inspire courage) and it penalizes armies. Very thematic for a bard trying to create a country and defend it. It is in the Eberron campaign setting (notice that eberron is very nice to bards and you will want to reflavor this item). It would make for a very nice quest for you and your party.

arguskos
2011-02-05, 04:06 PM
First I want to thank Arguskos for all the effort put in last night with the background and FR related concerns.
1. Pet peeve of mine: it's arguskos. Don't capitalize it. :smallwink:

2. Sure thing man. I love the Realms, personally.

3. On the issue of the party disliking the Thayan angle, eh, not much to do there. Some people just hate the thayans (reasonable response, really, hard to blame them). The enemy of my enemy angle's a good one though.

randomhero00
2011-02-05, 04:15 PM
I'd go with cleric as most flexible. You could have undead enforcers, or be extremely good and be known as a saint. (and call your city Saint ____ of Refuge)...

Although I think a psychedelic group of druids ruling a city would be totally awesomesauce. "Come live in nature, we have free healthcare and medicinals!"

Kobold Esq
2011-02-05, 04:26 PM
I have no problem with the cleric angle (or favored soul, etc), but the key would be finding a clergy who is ok with this type of behavior, ideally a good aligned god that would tolerate worship of other gods and wants their faith to be spread.

I don't think converting the locals would be too difficult, especially if your presence improves their personal situation dramatically. The real concern is how Mulhorandi clerics would take it if they saw missionaries of the Faurunian pantheon trying to muscle into what they think is "their" territory.