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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5] Sun School + Move Action Teleport + Snap Kick



Bakkan
2011-02-05, 05:00 AM
Can you gain the extra attack from Snap Kick (Tome of Battle) more than once in a round? If so, do the penalties stack?

Example: We have a Monk 2/Totemist 7 with the Sun School feat (Complete Warrior), the Snap Kick feat and the Blink Shirt (Magic of Incarnum) bound to his totem chakra. This round, he uses his standard action to make a single melee attack, and uses the Snap Kick feat to gain another attack, both attacks taking a -2 penalty to the attack roll. He then activates the Dimension Door effect of the Blink Shirt as a move action, teleporting next to an enemy. The Sun School feat allows him to make a single melee attack against that enemy.

Question 1: Can he use his Snap Kick feat to make an additional attack against the new enemy? If so, it seems obvious that both the Sun School attack and the Snap Kick attack will take a -2 penalty because of the cost of Snap Kick. If not, why not?

Question 2: If he can make an extra attack twice in a round by using Snap Kick twice, do the penalties stack to impose a -4 penalty on all melee rolls this round? Or would only a -2 penalty be imposed?

I'm looking for RAW rulings on this as well as individual DM interpretations. Thanks in advance.

true_shinken
2011-02-05, 08:19 AM
Can you gain the extra attack from Snap Kick (Tome of Battle) more than once in a round? If so, do the penalties stack?
Yes and yes.


Question 1: Can he use his Snap Kick feat to make an additional attack against the new enemy? If so, it seems obvious that both the Sun School attack and the Snap Kick attack will take a -2 penalty because of the cost of Snap Kick. If not, why not?
Yes you can and yes you take the penalty on all attacks.


Question 2: If he can make an extra attack twice in a round by using Snap Kick twice, do the penalties stack to impose a -4 penalty on all melee rolls this round? Or would only a -2 penalty be imposed?
It's a -4.

If I planned on using such a build, I'd invest in Wraithstrike.

Pechvarry
2011-02-05, 01:58 PM
Yes and yes.


Yes you can and yes you take the penalty on all attacks.


It's a -4.

If I planned on using such a build, I'd invest in Wraithstrike.

The penalties would NOT stack. You (should) get the extra attack, but all attacks are a -2. The feat says you take a -2 penalty on all attacks for using the feat, not -2 per extra attack. This means a -2 penalty is an untyped penalty, which wouldn't stack with untyped penalties from the same source.

snap kick x2, -2 penalty on all attacks.

Endarire
2011-02-05, 05:39 PM
Normally, untyped modifiers stack; thus, a -2 <unnamed> penalty stacks with another <unnamed> penalty.

Thefurmonger
2011-02-05, 05:41 PM
Normally, untyped modifiers stack; thus, a -2 <unnamed> penalty stacks with another <unnamed> penalty.

This was my take on it as well.

unosarta
2011-02-05, 05:45 PM
Normally, untyped modifiers stack; thus, a -2 <unnamed> penalty stacks with another <unnamed> penalty.

You forgot the crown rule of modifiers; modifiers from the same source do not stack unless explicitly said to do so.

Also, from a DM perspective, do you really want to make the monk's, who has probably one of the worst classes, life even harder? Honestly, getting another attack from that isn't going to be breaking anything, especially since it is already at a -2, and since he is using a Totemist and a Monk, he doesn't even have full BAB.

The Rabbler
2011-02-05, 05:58 PM
this build is begging for telflammar shadowlord. (I know I didn't spell that right)

Pechvarry
2011-02-05, 07:09 PM
You forgot the crown rule of modifiers; modifiers from the same source do not stack unless explicitly said to do so.

That's the kicker. Or else you'd be able to stack Rays of Enfeeblement on the same target, for example.

Unfortunately for everyone, I don't really feel like digging up the supporting rules. I'll just hope for a look-up-happy savior to resolve this.

Fax Celestis
2011-02-05, 10:55 PM
I'm of the mind that you can't use it more than once in an action, and you sit with a -2 penalty on all attacks in a round when you use it. Full-attack? Take a -2 and get an extra kick. Attack of Opportunity afterwards? Boot to the head, still at -2.

unosarta
2011-02-05, 10:57 PM
...unless they're untyped.

...Unless you read the next sentence after what you bolded.


Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

Otherwise you could have infinite Orange Ioun Stones for an infinite caster level. Which most definitely not the intention, and most certainly not the consensus on these boards.

Fax Celestis
2011-02-05, 10:59 PM
It can be argued that each extra kick, being it's own action, is it's own source. Still, I've edited my initial post to provide my actual thoughts on the feat rather than a rules quote without any opinion, so it's a moot point.

unosarta
2011-02-05, 11:04 PM
It can be argued that each extra kick, being it's own action, is it's own source. Still, I've edited my initial post to provide my actual thoughts on the feat rather than a rules quote without any opinion, so it's a moot point.

It could be argued that each Ioun Stone, being not the same exact object, is the same source.

Also, the actual source of the penalty is the feat. Is there more than one Snap Kick that is providing the penalty? Even if there were, it still wouldn't stack, since modifiers from the same source do not stack.


I'm of the mind that you can't use it more than once in an action, and you sit with a -2 penalty on all attacks in a round when you use it. Full-attack? Take a -2 and get an extra kick. Attack of Opportunity afterwards? Boot to the head, still at -2.

That was, if I am reading what you are writing as what I think I am, what I was saying. So, you could for instance use that Snap Kick on the full attack to gain an additional attack. All attacks in the round then gain a -2 penalty to the attack roll. Then you make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who is moving out of your threatened area. You use Snap Kick again, and hit with two attacks. Those attacks are at a -2 penalty.

Is this what you had in mind? Just trying to clarify.

Urpriest
2011-02-05, 11:08 PM
I thought the Totemist's move-action teleport explicitly ends your turn, due to the wording of dimension door? It's one of the hurdles for a pseudo-shadowpouncer build I was putting together on this forum a while back, search for Chaupiti if you're curious.

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 11:10 PM
I thought the Totemist's move-action teleport explicitly ends your turn, due to the wording of dimension door? It's one of the hurdles for a pseudo-shadowpouncer build I was putting together on this forum a while back, search for Chaupiti if you're curious.

He is using sun school which gives you an attack after using Dim door (somebody also mentioned telfhammer which can also do it better). Since snap kick does not take an explicit action (it just needs the trigger) it is usable with this attack.

EDIT: Also dim door does not end your turn it prevents you from taking actions which is a subtle difference. Most of the time though you end up ending your turn.