Interesting Mythology

[Conners]

Hope this is the right place for the thread.

There have been many thousands of interesting myths and mythos created throughout the world. Of course, DnD and other game systems implement the most known and popular (vampires, orcs, werewolves). Ocassionally you get the more abstract bit of mythos, like gnolls (African mythology).

Do you know of any particular interesting myths? This would include little-known facts about popular items.


One of the few bits I know, is an odd fact. Most of the world has old myths about dragons or dragon-like creatures.

[Haruki-kun]

I've heard a bit of Maya Mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_mythology). Fairly interesting.

Is that the sort of thing you're looking for?

[factotum]

Something I heard years ago: traditionally, you will only ever find one ghost in a graveyard--the ghost of the first person to be buried there. Ghosts usually haunt their place of death, and not many people actually die in graveyards!

[Serpentine]

One of the few bits I know, is an odd fact. Most of the world has old myths about dragons or dragon-like creatures.Check out Chaoskampf. More than just most (all?) mythologies including dragons or dragon-types, a massive number have at least one example of Chaoskampf - the symbolic triumph of Good over Chaos represented by a battle between a dragon and a culture-hero.
This includes, but is not limited to: St George and the Dragon, Marduk (etc) vs. Tiamat, Yahweh vs. Leviathan, Jason vs. Medusa, Belepharon vs. Chimera, Set/Ra vs. Apep, Horus vs. Set (depending), Zeus vs. Typhon, and so on.

More generally, I think I'll just leave my essay here (still waiting to hear what mark I got for it...):The image of one or two snakes twined around a staff is one of the most ancient and enduring symbols in history. From the very earliest detailed works of religious art in ancient Babylon right up to the modern day, this emblem has long been in use. We know it now almost exclusively as an official symbol of medicine, and this association has remained remarkably consistently present all down the ages. But the history of its representative significance is more intricate, and its origins more complex, than this would suggest. It includes the separate symbolism of the staff, as a tool and as a substitution for a tree, and of the serpent, itself rich in connotations, as well as the ancient combinations of the two.
The first known depictions of a snake twined around a staff date back as far as 3500BC in ancient Babylonia.1 These were Ningishzida, in the form of two snakes twisting around a sceptre or emerging from a single stem.2 This very old deity was a messenger and mediator to the gods, a patron of medicine and of spring and rebirth.3 The image did not merely represent Ningishzida, but rather from the beginning literally was the god.4 Even his name may have meant “God of the Right Hand Sceptre” or “Right-hand Sceptre God”.5 This title reflected the tendency for a small version of the Ningishzida wand to be held in the right hand of Ishtar or, sometimes, the sun god Shamash or Marduk.6 In this way Ningishzida was demonstrably a tool of or subordinate to those deities.7
One of the snakes twisting around the wand was male, and the other female.8 This may have been the root of gender ambiguity in the god.9 The staff part of Ningishzida's caduceus may have been a representation of or substitution for the Tree of Life.10 Snakes, an embodiment of the Mother Goddess, were shown alongside fruits of the Tree held by Ishtar, as goddess of fertility, life and resurrection, signifying her power.11 In fact, several other ancient divine women, usually goddesses of fertility, life and fecundity, were accompanied by or associated with serpents, enough to warrant their own category of “snake goddess”.12 Different versions of this figure are found throughout the ancient world, from Mesopotamia to Greece.13
From the form of a snake-and-staff emblem, Ningishzida progressed to a static image of a semi-human entwined by serpents, and finally to a fully human man with a snake head emerging from each shoulder.14 Nonetheless, use of the symbol outlived the worship of the god, who was phased out around 2000BC.15 It abided for a time in northern Syria as a god called Simios.16
Simios was the third of a triad, standing between a mother goddess, identified as Atargatis or Hera by the Greeks and a father god, called Hadad or Zeus.17 Where these two were clearly of human form, Simios was just as clearly not at all anthropomorphic.18 Rather, although sometimes considered male and sometimes female, generally youthful, and the offspring and lover of one of the other deities, it appears to have had the form of two serpents twisted around a staff – a god as a caduceus, just like Ningishzida.19 Simios, and its snakes-and-staff, was absorbed into the Greek pantheon as Hermes.20
Early in his existence, Hermes appears to have been a cthonic – that is, of the earth – snake-god, possibly connected directly with Simios himself.21 Hermes, like Ningishzida, was the diplomat and herald of the gods.22 He was also the patron deity of trade, thieves, deception and trickery,23 and escorted deceased souls to the underworld.24 To the Greeks, the caduceus, his snake-bound staff, represented peace and authority.25
Hermes was also known as a healer of sanity and in childbirth and as possessing skill with herbs, among other things.26 However these were far from his primary attributes and, as a healing god, Hermes was subordinate to Apollo, the primary god of medicine.27 Apollo, though, had a massive portfolio incorporating everything from plague to prophesy to music to the sun. It was his son, Aesculapius, who truly took on the mantle of physician-god.28
Despite a late introduction to the Greek pantheon after 500BC, Aesculapius' cult quickly spread.29 His priests were doctors, and his temples hospitals.30 He was also a god of divination, by virtue of being sired by Apollo, the patron of oracles, and through his custom of communicating diagnoses and prescriptions by means of the dreams induced in his incubating patient-worshippers.31
Aesculapius was closely tied to serpents. He is said to have taken on the form of a snake to travel to a new city on two separate occasions.32 Another legend claims that he gained his great medical ability after watching a serpent bring a healing herb to its fellow, which had been injured by the god a moment before.33 Moreover, his temples were populated by sacred snakes which assisted in the healing of his worshippers.34 His may originally have been a snake cult, the god worshipped in the form of a serpent, similar to Ningishzida and Simios.35 His distinctive Staff of Aesculapius, a rough wooden pole with a single snake twisted around it, has been a symbol of the medical profession since the god was actively worshipped, although it has been confused with Hermes' caduceus since Renaissance times.36
Judeo-Christian myth has remarkably similar serpent-staff connections. Two involve episodes in the life of Moses, the most obviously related dubbed Nehushtan.37 When the ungrateful Israelites appealed to Moses for reprieve from the venomous snakes sent by God as a punishment, he was instructed by God to craft a serpent of brass placed on a pole through looking at which victims of snake bites would be healed.38 Many years later, Hezekiah, a king of Judah, destroyed the serpent which he named Nehushtan, or “piece of brass”, as Israelites had been worshipping it like a god.39 This icon may have its origins in the contiguous Phoenician animal cults and in the worship of yet another healing snake god, Eshmun.40 There is some archaeological evidence confirming the existence of snake worship in Israel.41
The other early Jewish example is the Rod of Aaron. God gave Moses the ability to turn the rod into a snake and back again, in order to prove to the Pharaoh and to the Hebrew slaves that he had truly talked with God.42 It is suggested that the Rod, along with the serpentine transformation, represented life.43 However, the emphasis on proving a connection to God, and the Egyptian magicians' ability to perform the same trick suggests that a demonstration of secret or profound knowledge is also implied.44
Another intriguing part of Hebrew mythology is the Serpent of the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.45 The Serpent is called “more crafty” than any other animal.46 Where, in many other religions, snakes are considered “wise”, it is deceptiveness and untrustworthiness to which the Judeo-Christian serpent is usually devoted.47 Yet it is the wisdom granted by the fruit of the Tree that it espouses – truthfully, as it turns out, even God himself acknowledging that his First People had become “like gods” in their ill-gotten understanding – albeit a double-edged wisdom burdened by hardship and toil.48 It is connected to the Tree of Knowledge in a manner reminiscent of several serpents in other myths, especially in those of the Greeks, that protect certain important trees – Ladon and the Golden Apples, or the Colchian Dragon and the in which the Golden Fleece hung, for example.49 The similarity is reflected in artistic depictions of these serpent guardians.50
Snakes also had a prominent position in Egyptian creation stories. In some, a primeval serpent is the Creator God, simultaneously masturbating to form matter, encapsulating the world in its coils, and embracing itself in another form – it is to this single serpentine form that the gods and all existence will return at the end of time.51 The female side of the Ogdoad of early creator deities were also serpents – the males by contrast considered frogs.52 A serpent or worm, formed from the tears of the Eye of Atum, was the primordial form of several secondary deities.53
One of the first beings created at the beginning of the Egyptian universe was Apep, the great threat to the sun god Ra and all of existence. He was a giant serpent that dwelt in Duat, the Egyptian underworld, and was the embodiment of chaos and destruction.54 Yet he also had a regenerative aspect – he was destroyed every night, and every night he returned again to threaten the world.55 Another great serpent, called the “world-encircler”, rejuvenated those who passed through its body, as well as itself.56 For the Egyptians, moreover, death was not the conclusion of life but an intrinsic part of it: death, itself, was just a regeneration, and a condition of eternal existence.57 One funerary papyrus identifies a 4-legged, 2-winged serpent with the head of a man at one end and that of a jackal at the other as a god of both death and of creation.58 Some ancient Egyptian snakes were directly associated with fertility, such as Nehebkau, and serpents guarded Osiris as the god of life and vitality.59 The Ouroboros, the image found in a variety of religions of a snake biting its own tail, was considered by the Egyptians, too, to represent eternity and the infinite.60
Much of the position of snakes in Egyptian myth revolved around them being dangerous. In many cases – such as the aforementioned Apep – they are a threat to be countered and defended from.61 However, in a number of cases, that destructive power can be harnessed for the benefit of individuals, gods, and the world.62 The uraeus, a protective asp often coiled around the head or the sun and occasionally a staff, represented wisdom and life, and also divinity and royalty.63 It protected the wearer – pharaoh or deity – with the threat of a fiery tempest it was held to be able to breathe on anyone daring to wish ill on its charge.64 It was an aspect of a great variety of deities, from the vengeful goddess Sekhmet to the usually docile and benign Hathor.65 It was worn, among others, by the pharaoh and Ra as Sekhmet or, especially when accompanied by the vulture goddess Nekhbet or the Red Crown of Lower Egypt, the snake goddess Wadjet.66 Snakes themselves were considered wise, possessing “magic” – Hikê – or hidden knowledge, which was capable of being benevolent or malevolent.67
Serpents and staves could be interchangeable, as Pharaohs could be shown wielding a staff or a straight, stiffened snake rather than the usual sceptre.68 A staff wrapped in cloth or decorated with streamers was one of the most common Egyptian signs for “god”.69 There were a number of similar important religious objects commonly in use in a variety of contexts, including flagpoles erected at temple entrances and carrying poles or standards.70 These objects may have derived their religious significance from the wrapped-staff hieroglyph.71 It is possible, though poorly supported, that the Egyptian word for “god”, ntr, may have in its roots connections to trees and, by extension, tree cults.72 Strips of cloth could also be attached to the djed pillar.73 This distinctive fetish was especially the attribute of Osiris as the saviour from death. It represented stability, the rising of the soul, and the uprightness of being alive. It was a symbol of revival and of the separation of earth and sky that both allowed the development of reality and delineated its limits – the very structure of the world.74
For the Egyptians, life and the proper order of the universe meant upward movement.75 Thus was the symbolism of the Djed column which represented, separately or in synergy, the spine of Osiris, a tree, or a steady piece of architecture.76 So, too, was a rearing serpent, among other things, considered a suitable emblem of this.77 Thus the serpent and something like a staff were united in Egyptian symbolism in their shared representation of life in its upright form.78
The cthonic – that is, earth-dwelling nature of snakes may have contributed to the association of serpents with life and fertility as a whole: the connection with the earth and its cycles of death and rebirth.79 This relationship between snakes and life and resurrection is old and enduring.80 As well as the cthonic aspect, this may, in some cases, have partly involved them being, by virtue of their shape, phallic symbols of fertility.81 Where there were two snakes, each considered a different sex, it may also or instead have been that the dual form represented copulation, life, fertility and rebirth.82 More simply the snake may have been associated with life and resurrection due to its natural behaviours, such as living close to the ground and to water, emerging with spring warmth, and especially shedding its skin.83
As cthonic, often poisonous animals, snakes were also often considered creatures of death, danger and the underworld.84 The simple, minimalistic, streamlined shape of a snake lends itself to being seen as primitive or primordial, incomplete, almost a prototype for other animals.85 Considering this, it is perhaps not surprising that the serpent is so often found at the beginning of creation, before the universe and the creatures within it have been properly formed and defined. Similarly for the serpent as nothingness, as non-existence and the enemy of reality.86 However Greek oracles and many divinatory powers were also cthonic, drawing their power from the earth.87 Thus the serpent, by virtue of its connection with the earth, became associated with divination and, by extension, wisdom and knowledge.88 A prime example of this is the Python of Delphi.89 It was, according to the Greeks, this cthonic wisdom through which snakes had knowledge of herbs and medicine, and could even heal or prescribe cures.90 Knowledge of death and from the world of death implies knowledge of recovery from death.91 A more literal – and disgusting – but not very widely accepted interpretation of the connection between medicine, in particular, and the image of a serpent wrapped around a stick is that it represents a very specific medical treatment: in order to remove a long, parasitic worm from its host, it would be wound around a stick and thus extracted from the flesh.92
The ancient Greeks kept domestic snakes in much the same way as a cat or a guard dog – as a protector of the home.93 These aspects, of protection, vigilance and loyalty, may have fed into and reinforced the relation between these holy snakes and the gentle god of healing, Aesculapius.94
A staff, such as that of Aesculapius, could be considered literally, as a walking stick supporting the weary, hard-working physician, or a crutch used to support the ailing.95 Thus it conveyed the readiness of a doctor, or more specifically the healing deity, to offer support and assistance, especially medical, whenever needed.96 Alternatively, it could be considered more akin to a cudgel, as a symbol of protection.97 It was also, especially in the case of Hermes' caduceus, considered a herald's staff – also an emblem of protection and invulnerability as a token of diplomatic immunity.98 Similarly, if seen as a shepherd's crook, decorated by “snakes” of ribbons, the rod's healing and divinatory qualities were rendered subordinate to its role in heraldry.99 However, the similarity to the religiously significant Egyptian cloth-wrapped fetishes suggests that there might be more depth to this angle of association.100 Alternatively, and in addition, the staff was a sceptre emblematic of sovereignty and power or a magic wand, with power in its own right.101
Where the staff is reminiscent of a tree, such as the possible connection between Ningishzida and the Tree of Life, or Aesculapius' rough, sometimes leafed, stick, this may further indicate a cthonic embodiment of the living, ever-replenishing earth.102 It supplements the earth-dwelling, skin-sloughing regeneration of serpents with that of living vegetation.103 Trees, moreover, are also associated with knowledge, such as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil of the Garden of Eden or the chewing of oracular leaves in ancient Greece.104 This may be further cthonic connotations, or possibly by virtue of the hallucinogenic and pharmacological properties of various trees.
It is interesting to note that while serpents are almost always ambivalent in meaning – a dualistic embodiment of death and life, wisdom and deception, danger and protection, medicine and poison – staves or trees almost always have positive connotations, as do the combinations of snake and stick. Perhaps the binding of a snake to a staff nullifies or harnesses the negative aspects to render it beneficial those who would use it. In any case, it is clear that the religious, cultural and historic threads connecting serpents, staves and wisdom are a complex and tangled net of recursive and contradictory meaning. It incorporates questions of the very nature of wisdom and knowledge, of the layers of serpentine concepts, the substance behind staves and wood in a plethora of religious systems, questions which even individually are far from straightforward. Tendrils of significance stretch into almost every facet of ancient theology. With certainty, our modern medical emblem has old and complex roots which are only imperfectly understood.
References

Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica, trans. Emile Victor Rieu, Penguin, London, 1971
The Holy Bible, New International Version, Biblica Inc., 2010
The Holy Bible, Young's Literal Translation, trans. Robert Young, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1898
Ovid, Metamorphoses, trans. A.D. Melville, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1998
Macrobius, Saturnalia, trans. P.V.D, Kent, 1968
Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca, trans. Sir James George Frazer, Harvard University Press, London, 1921
Antoniou, Stayros A., George, Antoniou, A., Learney, Robert, Ganderath, Frank A. & Antonious, Athanasios I., 'The rod and the serpent: history's ultimate healing symbol', World Journal of Surgery, 17 June 2010
Bunn, John T., 'Origin of the Caduceus motif', Journal of the American Medical Association, Vol. 202, no. 7, 1963, pp. 615-619
Clarke, R.T. Rundle, Myth and Symbol in Ancient Egypt, Thames & Hudson, London, 1959
Frothingham, A.L., 'Babylonian origins of Hermes the snake-god, and of the Caduceus I', American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 20, no. 2, 1916, pp. 175-211
Graves, Robert & Patai, Raphael, Hebrew Myths: The Book of Genesis, Cassell & Company Ltd, London, 1964
Hornung, Erik, Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt: The One and the Many, trans. John Baines, Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, 1982
Joines, Karen Randolp, 'The Bronze Serpent in the Israelite cult', Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 87, no. 3, September 1968, pp. 245-256
LaCocque, Andre, 'Moses' competition with pharaoh's magicians', in Miracles: God, Science and Psychology in the Paranormal, Greenwood, Westport, 2008, pp. 87-102
Metzer, W. Steven, 'The Caduceus and the Aesculapian Staff: Ancient eastern origins, evolution and western parallels', Southern Medical Journal, Vol. 86, Issue 6, June 1989, pp. 743-748
Schouten, J., The Rod and Serpent of Asklepios: Symbol of Medicine, Elsevier Publishing Company, Amsterdam, 1967

[snoopy13a]

The flood myth is fairly universal. Perhaps that's because of communication among ancient peoples who each put their cultural spin upon it or maybe because floods are kinda a generic diaster. Or maybe there was actually a giant flood :smalltongue:

[Xuc Xac]

Check out Chaoskampf. More than just most (all?) mythologies including dragons or dragon-types, a massive number have at least one example of Chaoskampf - the symbolic triumph of Good over Chaos represented by a battle between a dragon and a culture-hero.


In European and Middle Eastern mythologies where dragons are bad. That doesn't apply in most far eastern mythologies where dragons are good and noble creatures.

[Conners]

@Haruki-kun: Oh yes, this does look like some interesting stuff. Even a long times back, people could tell some very interesting stories. Just a question of where I can get better details, without a month's reading material, since the wiki is a bit vague.


factotum: That reminds me of a myth popularized by the Catholic(?) church a long time back. Only so many people could get into heaven per day, so you had to pray to get them in faster. You could also pay special donations to get them in even faster..... it was quite shameless.

Whether this is an extension of the same myth, it was reckoned that a graveyard could send one soul up to heaven per day. So it was troublesome if there were two funerals on the same day.


@Serpentine: Good point you have there. Didn't realize there were quite so many examples of a hero slaying a dragon-like beast of chaos/evil.

Your essay is well-written, too. Mightn't want to use the term "Judeo-Christian myth", however, since that could offend people.


@snoopy13a: Making their cultural spin on a great flood sounds likely. If it's far-spread, it's likely is based on a big flood.

[Brother Oni]

In European and Middle Eastern mythologies where dragons are bad. That doesn't apply in most far eastern mythologies where dragons are good and noble creatures.

Depends on the the story. They're usually regarded as good and noble, but also powerful and capricious.



Your essay is well-written, too. Mightn't want to use the term "Judeo-Christian myth", however, since that could offend people.

Discussion of this point is likely to fall under board forbidden topics, but from where Serpentine is from, attitudes towards religion are more relaxed.



@snoopy13a: Making their cultural spin on a great flood sounds likely. If it's far-spread, it's likely is based on a big flood.

There's a general theory that the universal big flood myth is based on the melting of the last Ice Age. Since most settlements of that time were likely to be costal, the rising water levels simply drowned them; certain places, this would appear to be a giant flood, like the formation of what is now the English Channel and the Mediterranean Sea.

[Demon 997]

I believe the global flood myth is a result of the end of the last ice age, and is also usually the "break in history" between the mythical golden age and now. The aborigines in Australia don't have a flood story, because they'd split off by that point, so they have an unbroken history going all the way back (all meaning until whenever they started remembering their stories.

I may be wrong on bits of this, I got it from my mother who was an anthropology major. Its certainly interesting, and explains why almost everyone has roughly the same story from roughly the same time.

[Serpentine]

In European and Middle Eastern mythologies where dragons are bad. That doesn't apply in most far eastern mythologies where dragons are good and noble creatures.I can't comment much in that regard because I mostly only know European and Middle Eastern mythologies, but I can point to one story of the Rainbow Serpent in Australia, to the need to placate far eastern dragons lest they anger and wreak destruction, and to the Japanese story of Tokoyo and the dragon Yofune-Nushi. Also, you know, Egypt is neither European nor Middle Eastern.
Also, not all dragons in Europe and the Middle East are bad. Some are tragic, some are good and noble, and quite frequently they are intrinsic in the creation of the universe - often, but not always, through Chaoskampf.

Your essay is well-written, too. Mightn't want to use the term "Judeo-Christian myth", however, since that could offend people.Can't go into too much detail, so lets just go with "meh" and "it was written for an academic context". It's appropriate, but this isn't the place for a debate on the nature of myth.

[Zaydos]

Also there's Suzano-Oo versus Orochi in Japanese myth where the storm god kills an eight headed dragon. The interesting thing here is that Suzano-Oo did this when banished from the heavens for causing chaos and then he kills the dragon causing chaos on Earth. So not all eastern dragons were good.

As for the essay, nice. Only real comment I can make is that Perseus slew Medusa (who I never really thought of as a dragon, but I can see it especially in the versions where she has wings) not Jason. On that note Perseus also slew a giant sea monster that is reminiscent of sea dragons (such as Tiamat).

In Norse myth there's the Midgard serpent who is son of Loki (sometimes called god of chaos now, if not in the myths) who is instrumental in Ragnarok (he kills Thor). There's also Fafnir whose greed turned him into a dragon.

As for odd things: The only bad thing Sif ever did in Norse mythology was have an affair with Loki. The only source for this is the Lokasenna or Loki Senna. A senna was an insult contest where you told a mixture of truths and lies so anything only from a senna is dubious at best. In the senna Loki accuses Sif of it saying it's a secret that only he knew and that none of the other gods would even suspect, even admitting he had nothing else on her. The other gods laugh at the lie and it's not mentioned in any other myth. Even so it is mentioned as well established in several modern works including the 3.0 D&D Deities and Demigods.

[Serpentine]

As for the essay, nice. Only real comment I can make is that Perseus slew Medusa (who I never really thought of as a dragon, but I can see it especially in the versions where she has wings) not Jason. On that note Perseus also slew a giant sea monster that is reminiscent of sea dragons (such as Tiamat).A-doi. Please tell me I didn't write that in my assignment :smalleek:
The Medusa was a drakaina, a category of (mostly?) Greek monsters that were basically female serpents or dragons. They could be depicted as fully serpent or dragon (e.g. Python (sometimes)), or as half-serpent (e.g. Echidna), or with serpentine qualities (e.g. some depictions of Medusa), or all of the above.

[Xondoure]

the symbolic triumph of Good over Chaos represented by a battle between a dragon and a culture-hero.
This includes, but is not limited to: St George and the Dragon, Marduk (etc) vs. Tiamat, Yahweh vs. Leviathan, Jason vs. Medusa, Belepharon vs. Chimera, Set/Ra vs. Apep, Horus vs. Set (depending), Zeus vs. Typhon, and so on.


Correct me if I'm wrong on this but Jason is the fleece guy isn't he? I was under the impression Perceus fought Medusa.

Other than that I agree with pretty much everything, and I really enjoyed your essay.

[Serpentine]

See the post directly above yours :smallwink:
edit: In my defence, Jason vs. Dragon of the Golden Fleece. Sort of.
...
Medea did it.

[Bhu]

Peruse Russian, Tibetan, Finno-Ugric or Inuit myth. You'll find some fairly weird stuff.

[Shyftir]

The Norse story about the Mead of Poetry. Not gonna run down the whole thing, but one part stuck out.

After Odin steals the Mead from a Giant, he turns into a bird and flies hard for Asgard. The Giant does likewise and is catching up, so Odin digests some of the Mead and defecates on the pursuing Giant. The correlation is made that bad poets get only that part of the Mead. Of course this varies on source and was probably added later but it's too awesome not to share.

[Mina Kobold]

The Norse story about the Mead of Poetry. Not gonna run down the whole thing, but one part stuck out.

After Odin steals the Mead from a Giant, he turns into a bird and flies hard for Asgard. The Giant does likewise and is catching up, so Odin digests some of the Mead and defecates on the pursuing Giant. The correlation is made that bad poets get only that part of the Mead. Of course this varies on source and was probably added later but it's too awesome not to share.

I got it from the Valhalla comic (Danish, pretty good about including the actual myth in the foreword and rarely stray all that much anyway) but at least that version had him drink it all and vomit it up back at Valhalla.

Anyway, the most interesting thing I can think of not already posted here by someone much smarter already is the fact that the idea of Norse giants, Tomte's and the like all stem from an older mythology where everything had a spirit or soul.

The mountain spirits became the Jötunn (giants), the pebbles became Tomtes (Brownies), the rocks became Dwarves and so on.

[Arachu]

The Greek belief regarding the origin of the world held that everything that exists was once an indistinct mass of matter and energy that they called Chaos. Interestingly, this is surprisingly similar to the Big Bang theory, given that that theory holds all of the expanded matter to have condensed into their current states.

While most of the world thought the Earth to be flat, several Native American cultures predicted it to be round. The Norse might have as well, given that Jormungandr was reputed to be long enough to wrap about the world.

There was an Egyptian god known as Amun. His first-and-only Pharoah (Akhenaten) took charge of Egypt and immediately revoked its entire pantheon. The gods continued their regards among isolated cults, and after Akhenaten died these cults were swift to reclaim their position... Strangely, they started calling Ra 'Amun-Ra' afterwards...

On that subject, where most Pharoes were depicted as examples of human perfection (broad shoulders, plated beards), Akhenaten was depicted as malformed. His skull was shown to be enlarged in his statues.

Elves were originally harbingers of luck - but it was impossible to tell whether that luck was good or catastrophic. Calamity was implied in either case, as far as I understand.

And an inverted form of the serpent-staff; the Norse held the world to be supported by the Taproot (whose roots more or less spread through everything that was). At its base were dragons that eternally gnawed at its roots (possibly suggesting theirs being the cause of entropy of existence itself). I know that one was Nidhogg, I believe one was Fafnir, and I remember there being a third, but don't recall the details.

[Mina Kobold]

And an inverted form of the serpent-staff; the Norse held the world to be supported by the Taproot (whose roots more or less spread through everything that was). At its base were dragons that eternally gnawed at its roots (possibly suggesting theirs being the cause of entropy of existence itself). I know that one was Nidhogg, I believe one was Fafnir, and I remember there being a third, but don't recall the details.

I thought that was Yggdrasil?

It supported all there is and had dragons gnawing on it's roots in the versions I have heard, anyway.

Could be wrong, though. :smallsmile:

[Serpentine]

There was an Egyptian god known as Amun. His first-and-only Pharoah (Akhenaten) took charge of Egypt and immediately revoked its entire pantheon. The gods continued their regards among isolated cults, and after Akhenaten died these cults were swift to reclaim their position... Strangely, they started calling Ra 'Amun-Ra' afterwards...Alas, non. The god was Aten - it's there in the Pharaoh's name. Amun was another old sun god. Gotta brush up on it for a sec, or I'll get the details wrong...
Yeah, thought so. He became the sort of "overdeity" of creation, the one* who made the universe at the very, very beginning, slightly distant and mysterious. Through him the Egyptian pantheon almost became a type of monotheism in that the other gods were sort of just aspects of him.
Aten, however, was the sundisk, worshipped at the expense of all the other gods. Before Akhenaten, the Pharaoh was the conduit to the gods, responsible for performing a lot of the really important rites and a god himself. The people, however, still had some connection to the gods through their own means.
Akhenaten made himself the worshipper of the only god. The people had no access to Aten except through the Pharaoh, and the Pharaoh was the closest thing they had to a "personal" god.
Now, after Akhenaten died and all trace of him and his god was eliminated, there was a massive social backlash. All of a sudden, the Pharaoh had a much decreased influence. The people wanted their own gods, ones they didn't need a Pharaoh to communicate with. And thus was the beginning of the decline of the Egyptian empire... If I recall correctly (which I may well not), that was the start of a big rise in Osiris' and Horus' influence, as they are very personal sorts of gods, and also Suffering Gods (which can't really be discussed here).

Even if you got the name wrong, though, Aten is an interesting god. The first recorded monotheistic religion, for example.

*in this specific myth. Half the Egyptian deities were considered a creator of some sort.

[Obrysii]

Serpentine, to make your posts more readable - especially your essay - can you please double-return with your posts?

Like that ^ ... it is essentially the forum-version of indentation.

Otherwise it looks like one big blob of text and makes stuff really hard to read.



As far as interesting mythology - one field of study that I have always wanted to do, but have yet to have a chance (or find a source) is Aboriginal mythology of Australia. I am sure that, considering the creatures that live there, that their myths must be very interesting!

[Zaydos]

See the post directly above yours :smallwink:
edit: In my defence, Jason vs. Dragon of the Golden Fleece. Sort of.
...
Medea did it.

I figured it was a typo, but I thought you should know. There was also the dragon of Thebes, and a tendency for dragon teeth to give birth to warriors if sown in the ground.


While most of the world thought the Earth to be flat, several Native American cultures predicted it to be round. The Norse might have as well, given that Jormungandr was reputed to be long enough to wrap about the world.

That's actually a myth. The Greeks didn't only know the world was round but its diameter to within less than a percent of its actual diameter. The Phoenicians knew it was round and had colonies in Australia. The Indians did believe it was a flat disc carried upon the back of four elephants which were carried by an even larger turtle, though.


And an inverted form of the serpent-staff; the Norse held the world to be supported by the Taproot (whose roots more or less spread through everything that was). At its base were dragons that eternally gnawed at its roots (possibly suggesting theirs being the cause of entropy of existence itself). I know that one was Nidhogg, I believe one was Fafnir, and I remember there being a third, but don't recall the details.

It was Yggdrasil, and only Nidhogg had a name out of the ones there in versions that have more than one worm there (trying to remember how to spell the old Norse word ormyr I think, but I'm not sure, it was the same as Old English wurm, and meant snake, serpent, worm, dragon; their dragon ships were named draki [don't know the spelling]).

Also in Norse myth, there's the story of Utgard-Loki. Go read it because it's awesome. If you don't feel like it:

It has goats which pull a chariot and get eaten and brought back to life. Foolish mortals who eat a bone from the goat making it be missing a bone. A giant illusionist. A man who must race thought. An eating contest between Loki and Fire. Thor drinks the ocean giving us tides. Thor lifts the Midgard serpent a few inches off the ground, and almost wrestles old age herself before finally losing. This makes Utgard-Loki, most cunning and powerful of the giants, give up and not even try and have all his giants kill them because even though they loss every challenge because they came so close that Utgard-Loki knew he couldn't win.

While still on the Norse (I like Norse myth) it shares something culturally with Japan: Your skill at poetry and your skill at killing people are correlated.

Of course the difference here is this is post-Tokugawan Japan where samurai became bureaucrats and stopped knowing how to fight (most of our ideas about samurai come from the fantasized version from this period), compared to the height of the viking age where these poets were out, taking over England (the Dane Law) and conquering Europe.

So yes, your ability to write scathing insults about your opponent off the top of your head makes you a better warrior. Thus one must fear fighting Peter Parker and Deadpool more than any other heroes.

[Arachu]

@ Keveak


I thought that was Yggdrasil?

It supported all there is and had dragons gnawing on it's roots in the versions I have heard, anyway.

Could be wrong, though. :smallsmile:
No, you're quite right. I stayed up until 5:00 and got the names mixed up. That's rather embarrasing, but considering how much I've obsessed over it I should know such a thing automatically.


@ Serpentine


Alas, non. The god was Aten - it's there in the Pharaoh's name. Amun was another old sun god. Gotta brush up on it for a sec, or I'll get the details wrong...
I've always heard Amun (or Amen), but I couldn't very well go and ask them how to say it... Plus, you make a good point, it's in his title.



If I recall correctly (which I may well not), that was the start of a big rise in Osiris' and Horus' influence, as they are very personal sorts of gods, and also Suffering Gods (which can't really be discussed here).

This would explain that trend. They were already quite popular before, but Ra had much of the focus earlier on, and the regime overhaul makes sense of that.

Also, I've never hear of a 'Suffering God' before, for all my reading. Could you perhaps direct me to a resource regarding them?


@ Zaydos



That's actually a myth. The Greeks didn't only know the world was round but its diameter to within less than a percent of its actual diameter. The Phoenicians knew it was round and had colonies in Australia. The Indians did believe it was a flat disc carried upon the back of four elephants which were carried by an even larger turtle, though.

I forgot about the Greeks (early morning, I tried to think through a headache). I didn't know about Australian Phoenician colonies, though.

I suppose, given the horizon is curved, that it should be somewhat obvious, the world's shape...




While still on the Norse (I like Norse myth) it shares something culturally with Japan: Your skill at poetry and your skill at killing people are correlated.

Of course the difference here is this is post-Tokugawan Japan where samurai became bureaucrats and stopped knowing how to fight (most of our ideas about samurai come from the fantasized version from this period), compared to the height of the viking age where these poets were out, taking over England (the Dane Law) and conquering Europe.

Huh. That's a good point. Between the Skalds and Jarls, that's a lot of pen-and-sword by itself. And let's not forget the Norse tendency to write things down (often in stone, but they're Vikings - they probably had a hard time keeping the rock from breaking under their tools :smalltongue:).

People never remember the Scandanavians' higher points. Hell, given their discovery of Vinland (America), as well as their general literacy rates, personal hygiene, metalworking techniques... Romans are considered more advanced? :sarcastic laugh:



So yes, your ability to write scathing insults about your opponent off the top of your head makes you a better warrior. Thus one must fear fighting Peter Parker and Deadpool more than any other heroes.

Well, obviously. It's psycholgical, you know. The better you are at ******* off your enemy, the more idiotic they tend to get. Death by a thousand remarks.

:roach:

[Asta Kask]

Gilgamesh and Enkidu. The original fighting couple (the manuscript steams with homoeroticism). The First Heroes, and Gilgamesh fighting for the greatest prize of all - enlightenment.

[OverThoughtName]

In Greek Mythology, Athena almost had a lover and thus wouldn't have been a virgin goddess. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, nor that of his winged, two-human-footed horse, but he was wounded in the sacking of Thebes. When Athena rushed to get the elixer of immortality to him, his comrade in arms convinced him to eat the brain of his fallen foe for strength. Needless to say, thus the reason why Athena stayed a virgin goddess.

[Arachu]

I read Oedipus Rex not too long ago. I find it disturbing (and slightly amusing) that Oedipus simply ignored the prophecy despite all evidence suggesting its truth...

What's worse is that Jocasta (his wife-that-turned-out-to-be-his-mother) actually convinced him not to worry, over part of it...

On that note, the concept of incest in culture is interesting, as well - the Norse considered it appalling (and killed you, if my Asatru friend has his facts straight (he usually does)). Greeks obviously considered it horrific and embarrasing (in Oedipus, Jocasta hanged herself and Oedipus gouged his own eyes out with her clasps (and his thoughts and speech at the end even disturbed me)).

But in Egypt? Pharoes were expected to relate with their siblings, keep the bloodline pure. The gods often participated in incest (though they had no-one else to spawn a pantheon with). I'm not sure how it was regarded among the general populace, but it probably wasn't held as damnable.

I'm not sure about other cultures, though.

... Anyone notice, that regardless of wanton inbreeding, the only Pharoah depicted as deformed (in the Old Kingdom) was Ankhenaten? Moreso than that, their remains are obviously prime examples of the human shape, and their decisions were usually sound (which isn't associated with inbreeders these days). I found this eerie somehow...

(What's more, if I have my own facts straight, Ankhenaten wasn't even Egyptian by birth...)

[Asta Kask]

When Athena rushed to get the elixer of immortality to him, his comrade in arms convinced him to eat the brain of his fallen foe for strength. Needless to say, thus the reason why Athena stayed a virgin goddess.

So that's why my girlfriend left me. I was wondering.

In all fairness, she had recommended I get more 'brain food'.

[Mina Kobold]

... Anyone notice, that regardless of wanton inbreeding, the only Pharoah depicted as deformed (in the Old Kingdom) was Ankhenaten? Moreso than that, their remains are obviously prime examples of the human shape, and their decisions were usually sound (which isn't associated with inbreeders these days). I found this eerie somehow...

(What's more, if I have my own facts straight, Ankhenaten wasn't even Egyptian by birth...)

First of all, Tut-Ankh-Amon suffered from numerous deformities (enlarged skull, not being able to walk right, etc.) as can be seen from his mummy, if I recall correctly, and most depictions are made by people who are supposed to make them look good, Akhenaten was just really unpopular.

Also, they had advisers. And only half of them were evil. :smalltongue:

[grimbold]

another interesting myth that spans cultures is the Yeti
also known as the wendigo and bigfoot it would not surprise me if these things exist, or at some point had existed

[KnightDisciple]

*snip* Yahweh vs. Leviathan*snip*

...Wait, what? That must be apocryphal. References to Leviathan (as in, the creature explicitly given that name) never refer to a battle between it and YHWH. There's another use of draconic imagery later on, but while that dragon is referred to a few different ways, I don't recall it being called Leviathan.

Incidentally, I'm not "offended" by the use of the term "myth". But that's because I stand with Lewis and Tolkien in believing that "myth" does not equal "untruth". Just the opposite, in fact. Much more on this, and I'm crossing a line, I suppose. :smallwink:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

The Phoenicians knew it was round and had colonies in Australia.

whowhatwherewhenhow
WHAAA?

Are we talking about the same places? Phoenicians, like, Tyre? That area? Settled northern coast of Africa, southern coast of Iberia? Furthest colonies on Atlantic shore of Morocco? Those Phoenicians? Australia, as in that big continent-island-thing in the southern Pacific? Near New Zealand and stuff? That Australia?

I'm 99.999999% sure you have something wrong there...

Sorry to pick that one bit out of your post, but it just jumped out at me as being the only erroneous thing in your post...

[Kaiser Omnik]

re: Pheonicians in Australia
Yeah, I've encountered this theory before, but there is simply no evidence to that effect. It would have been much more trouble than it was worth for them.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

If we're talking randomly floated to Australia and somehow made it back, then sure, in the same sense of Hui-Sheng's travels to Fusang, which I do believe is in North America, or L'anse aux Meadows, Vinland and Markland.

Interesting note: apparently Markland was used quite regularly by the Icelanders for timber. Huh.

[Jallorn]

The flood myth is fairly universal. Perhaps that's because of communication among ancient peoples who each put their cultural spin upon it or maybe because floods are kinda a generic diaster. Or maybe there was actually a giant flood :smalltongue:

There was a rather widespread flooding of the land at some point. Whether it covered the whole land (unlikely) or what caused it are unknown. I'm rather hazy on the details, but science showed it happened.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

There was a rather widespread flooding of the land at some point. Whether it covered the whole land (unlikely) or what caused it are unknown. I'm rather hazy on the details, but science showed it happened.

I remember reading something about epic flooding on what is now the Black sea. Apparently it used to be a tiny lake. Something like rising a meter a day, for a couple of months.

[Xuc Xac]

There was a rather widespread flooding of the land at some point. Whether it covered the whole land (unlikely) or what caused it are unknown. I'm rather hazy on the details, but science showed it happened.

There isn't enough water on the planet to flood all the land or even most of the land. But every ancient human civilization began in a river valley. River valleys flood regularly. In fact, the annual flooding of the Nile was considered the source of life in Egypt. Without the regular flooding which deposited fertile mud on the surrounding valley floor, they wouldn't have been able to grow any crops.

The whole world can't be flooded, but it's not too far-fetched to say that "everything as far as the eye can see" was under water during an unusually great flood such as a 500-year flood (so called because that's how often they happen on average, not how long they last). Especially when you consider that the eye can't really see that far when you're in a valley. Any civilization that lived in the same valley for a long enough time would eventually see a 500-year flood or a 1000-year flood and tell their grandchildren about the massive disaster so it passes into legend.

[Conners]

Wow, I seem to have attracted a lot of experienced individuals, with this thread.
KnightDisciple makes an interesting point, too.


One thing I've been looking at recently, is the myth of the "Were-Hyena" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouda . Apparently, blacksmiths in Ethiopia are considered to all be were-hyenas, and eat corpses at night..... hopefully not to this day.

The Persians also mention in one of their health books, a cure against being a were-hyena who kills children.

[Serpentine]

That's actually a myth. The Greeks didn't only know the world was round but its diameter to within less than a percent of its actual diameter. The Phoenicians knew it was round and had colonies in Australia. The Indians did believe it was a flat disc carried upon the back of four elephants which were carried by an even larger turtle, though.Sauce plox re. Phoenicians in Australia.
Also, it's not exactly a myth so much as a misconception. While the Greeks knew the world was round, that information was lost, and across the world knowledge of the shape of the world was patchy and variable at best.

I've always heard Amun (or Amen), but I couldn't very well go and ask them how to say it... Plus, you make a good point, it's in his title.They're both completely (sorta) different gods. You don't have to go back and ask them, just go ask Wikipedia :smalltongue:

Also, I've never hear of a 'Suffering God' before, for all my reading. Could you perhaps direct me to a resource regarding them?
Been a while since I studied it. I can't remember whether it's just another (probably wrong) name for birth-death-rebirth deities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-death-rebirth_deity), or whether they just overlap a lot. You get the gist, though.

I read Oedipus Rex not too long ago. I find it disturbing (and slightly amusing) that Oedipus simply ignored the prophecy despite all evidence suggesting its truth...Actually, the point is that he didn't ignore the prophecy, but rather ignored the reason he went to see the oracle, to whit the rumours that he was adopted, thereby fulfilling the prophecy by trying to avoid it.

On that note, the concept of incest in culture is interesting, as well - the Norse considered it appalling (and killed you, if my Asatru friend has his facts straight (he usually does)). Greeks obviously considered it horrific and embarrasing (in Oedipus, Jocasta hanged herself and Oedipus gouged his own eyes out with her clasps (and his thoughts and speech at the end even disturbed me)).

But in Egypt? Pharoes were expected to relate with their siblings, keep the bloodline pure. The gods often participated in incest (though they had no-one else to spawn a pantheon with). I'm not sure how it was regarded among the general populace, but it probably wasn't held as damnable.Noooooot.... quite. I mean, the Greek pantheon was stuffed full of incest. Ultimately, most pantheons are, just because most gods are related and don't really have anyone else to hook up with.
The thing with Egypt was, iirc, a bit more complicated than that. Something about how the Pharaohs had the blood of the gods in their veins, and needed to keep as much of it in the royal line as possible. Moreover, the royal line (iirc) was passed through the females. That is, the king wasn't the son of the previous king, but rather the husband of his daughter. Thus, the marrying of the sisters.
I pretty much expect someone to correct me on that, though.

First of all, Tut-Ankh-Amon suffered from numerous deformities (enlarged skull, not being able to walk right, etc.) as can be seen from his mummy, if I recall correctly, and most depictions are made by people who are supposed to make them look good, Akhenaten was just really unpopular.Possible, but unlikely. As far as I know all remaining depictions of him and his family were made during his lifetime, presumably at his request. So, while we don't know why they were depicted that way, "they didn't like him" is unlikely. It's a pretty huge change to make just because they didn't like him, too - the art stayed pretty much the same for millenia.
It has been theorised that it was an accurate depiction of just what they looked like, and that that was because of a particular genetic abnormality (which fits remarkably well), but some genetic testing pretty much blew that.

...Wait, what? That must be apocryphal. References to Leviathan (as in, the creature explicitly given that name) never refer to a battle between it and YHWH. There's another use of draconic imagery later on, but while that dragon is referred to a few different ways, I don't recall it being called Leviathan.Eeeeeh... I think actually posting it would be crossing the line, so I'll just give you some references: Psalm 74.13-4, Isaiah 27.1. There's also Rahab, and references to Egypt which may have been equated with either Rahab or Leviathan.

[factotum]

whowhatwherewhenhow
WHAAA?

Are we talking about the same places? Phoenicians, like, Tyre? That area?

I don't know about Australia, but I'm pretty sure the Phoenicians are known to have circumnavigated Africa...

[Conners]

Eeeeeh... I think actually posting it would be crossing the line, so I'll just give you some references: Psalm 74.13-4, Isaiah 27.1. There's also Rahab, and references to Egypt which may have been equated with either Rahab or Leviathan. You mean it's illegal on these forums to quote a Bible/Torah verse :smalleek:??

[Zaydos]

whowhatwherewhenhow
WHAAA?

Are we talking about the same places? Phoenicians, like, Tyre? That area? Settled northern coast of Africa, southern coast of Iberia? Furthest colonies on Atlantic shore of Morocco? Those Phoenicians? Australia, as in that big continent-island-thing in the southern Pacific? Near New Zealand and stuff? That Australia?

I'm 99.999999% sure you have something wrong there...

Sorry to pick that one bit out of your post, but it just jumped out at me as being the only erroneous thing in your post...

I got it from National Geographic (or the Discovery Channel) so it could very well be wrong (I don't hold either source in high regard), but they were known to have circumnavigated Africa at least and they regularly sailed in the Atlantic and beyond.

This becomes even more ironic when another issue of National Geographic when talking about Mediterranean type skeletons being found in South America (they were at least at the time the earliest known remains) listed all early Mediterranean nationalities I could think of (and some that aren't Mediterranean) as possibilities except the Phoenicians.

But yeah sailors, and every nation that regularly sailed knew the world was round.

[Serpentine]

You mean it's illegal on these forums to quote a Bible/Torah verse :smalleek:??It's against the rules to discuss religion. I think pointing out specific points to look at is okay, but actually discussing any religious text is almost certainly not.

[Conners]

It's against the rules to discuss religion. I think pointing out specific points to look at is okay, but actually discussing any religious text is almost certainly not. Too bad, it can be a fun subject at times--of course, by fun, I mean arguments that can get pretty heated... So, it's reasonable for the Giant to want to avoid those things on his forum.


Back on topic, though. An interesting fact, is that gnolls apparently aren't based off mythology. Instead, it seems that Gary invented them, as half-troll-gnomes. Somehow, they became hyena men over the various editions.
The reason this is so interesting to me, is that there are so many games and fantasy settings that use them (Discworld, WoW, a number of Korean games, Everquest, etc.). How do they escape legal trouble?

While this may seem off-topic, it is a bit of interesting mythology, created over time by Gary and the DnD staff. This mythology then became unexpectedly popular.

[Asta Kask]

I don't know about Australia, but I'm pretty sure the Phoenicians are known to have circumnavigated Africa...

Herodotos states they did, and said that they told outrageous stories about the sun moving in the wrong way when they were far south...

[Serpentine]

Herodotus says a lot of things :smallwink:

[Obrysii]

It's against the rules to discuss religion. I think pointing out specific points to look at is okay, but actually discussing any religious text is almost certainly not.

This should include Greek, Roman, and other religious beliefs, Atheism, and anything that could be defined as "religious" or of a religious tilt.

So the discussion of mythology is a very fine edge.


That is an interesting point - that there is modern mythology at work now, within the world of D&D; that creatures evolve from one form to an nearly unrecognizable form later is interesting.

Kobolds are a good example.

[Serpentine]

Of course - and notice my "any religious text". That's why we've gotta make sure with stick to myth and away from religion as much as possible.

[Borgh]

The bits of mythology that are most fun to me are the bits that other people say some group has while the locals go whaaa?. For example the duch the kid who puts his finger in a dyke and saves his town. Very well known duch legend right? nope, never happened. He was made up by a american storyteller. And anyway, by the time you see water seeping though a dyke its best o run to the neares high ground.

This type of making up myths and legends is often found in books that try to collect myths from around Ye olde Worlde.

[Yora]

Of course - and notice my "any religious text". That's why we've gotta make sure with stick to myth and away from religion as much as possible.
Now that's an interesting concept of myth.
Not that I am saying what you said is wrong and there are so many uses of the word "myth" that nobody is really sure what it is supposed to be. But most people use it in a way that is inseperable from religion.
If it's not an element of religion,most people will say it's not a myth but a folk or fairy tale. But with so many concepts of the word myth, there are probably some who would claim the opposite.
(A few days ago someone asked to write a term paper about "myth" and the lecturers reply was: "Don't!" Every attempt to bring some order into the subject of myths is doomed to end in confusion and frustration. :smallbiggrin:)



You mean it's illegal on these forums to quote a Bible/Torah verse :smalleek:??
Only if it's about "C", "I" or "J". All other religions seem to be fair game.
I'd say about 80% of all threads on this forum break the rule against mentioning the awful subject that must not be named, but as long as you don't mention C**********y nobody seems to be very concerned about it.

[Mina Kobold]

Only if it's about "C", "I" or "J". All other religions seem to be fair game.
I'd say about 80% of all threads on this forum break the rule against mentioning the awful subject that must not be named, but as long as you don't mention C**********y nobody seems to be very concerned about it.

That's because those are the one that could be offended in America,whether they or anybody else could get offended is a matter of debate but it never hurts playing it safe. :smallsmile:

I will, however, mention that given that and given that we can discuss made-up religions I think it's fair to assume that the dead religions of ancient Rome, Greece, Egypt and medieval Scandinavia are OK to talk about.

Though, they are trying to restart the Norse religion so that ight be a problem...

Maybe we should ask a moddy? :3

[Serpentine]

I know, but for the purpose of this thread, y'know. And no, it's not just Christianity. It's been repeated that RAW it's all religions, it's just that some are easier to discuss within the rules than others.

Could we please stop discussing the rules and start discussing the topic? :smallsigh:

Someone mentioned bigfoot etc. before. Australia has the yowie, among other things. Of course, according to a Scooby Doo movie I saw recently, they're actually called "yowie-yahoos" and are vampires, with all the popular traits of a European vampire :smallsigh:
There's also a type of lycanthrope, a murderous devil-dog man-thing, and something that reminds me a fair bit of an extra-dangerous harpy.

[Zaydos]

Oh yes, since I'm a Norse myth fan and a D&Der I always found this interesting. In the Saga of Hrolf Kraki (or however you choose to translate the name), there was a character Beorn, and a second much more important character Bodvar Bjarki.

Beorn was a prince cursed by an evil witch to take the form of a bear by day. So he lived by eating his father's livestock and refusing to hurt humans, even if it meant his life.

Bodvar was one of Beorn's sons with his lover Bera (who recognized him despite his affliction) and in my opinion the most awesome hero in the book (he does a lot more than Hrolfr does, but Hrolfr is a leader who makes other warriors better by being there not himself a supreme warrior). In the final battle Bodvar turns into a bear or astral projects as a bear (it's a little unclear, I actually go with the second) to slaughter the enemy until his prodigy goes "where's Bodvar" and goes and finds him and requires that he tells what's going on. Somehow this makes it so that Bodvar can't go slaughtering the enemy as a magic resistant bear anymore and the heroes only hope is gone. Oh yes the enemy army includes elves and the undead.

Why is this interesting to me as a D&Der? Because it's why werebears are LG. Tolkien drew on it for his werebear character Beorn, and Poul Anderson translated the saga and was an author that Gygax has admitted to getting a fair bit from (D&D trolls are an oft cited example and if wiki is to be believed alignment as well).

Oh yes and lich is sometimes used to describe undead in Norse myth, or at least Poul Anderson who translated at least one saga said lich was their word for corpse and was sometimes used for undead. Norse undead most often live in barrow mounds. Barrow wight is a word Tolkien used to describe barrow mound undead admitting it didn't mean undead, but just man (i.e. Barrow Man). D&D wights are based on Tolkien's barrow wights (which were descriptively the same sort of being as the lesser wraiths the nazgul made).

[Asta Kask]

There's also a type of lycanthrope, a murderous devil-dog man-thing, and something that reminds me a fair bit of an extra-dangerous harpy.

Shouldn't Australian lycanthropes turn into thylacines?

My favorite creepy Swedish folklore creature is the Myling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myling) or Myrdhing. It is the spirit (and sometimes the body as well) of a child who was murdered at childbirth and buried somewhere to hide an unplanned pregnancy.


Oh yes and lich is sometimes used to describe undead in Norse myth, or at least Poul Anderson who translated at least one saga said lich was their word for corpse and was sometimes used for undead.

Still used in Swedish - lik (lich) = corpse.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Why is this interesting to me as a D&Der? Because it's why werebears are LG. Tolkien drew on it for his werebear character Beorn, and Poul Anderson translated the saga and was an author that Gygax has admitted to getting a fair bit from (D&D trolls are an oft cited example and if wiki is to be believed alignment as well).

He also drew on the stories of Siward, Earl of Northumbria, who inspired quite a lot in the Hobbit, including several specifics of the dragon's death (Siward killed a dragon in Orkney before killing Macbeth), as well as Bjorn, his father, being known as being the son of a polar bear.

[Zaydos]

He also drew on the stories of Siward, Earl of Northumbria, who inspired quite a lot in the Hobbit, including several specifics of the dragon's death (Siward killed a dragon in Orkney before killing Macbeth), as well as Bjorn, his father, being known as being the son of a polar bear.

I think I mispelled Bjarki's dad's name...
How'd Siward kill the dragon? If it was the missing part of Smaug's armor that's actually older as it was part of the Volsunga Saga's Fafnir who was armored by the gold of his hoard except for one place upon his chest which was where he was stabbed by Sigurd and killed. Also the goblet Bilbo stole mirrors the goblet stolen from the firedrake in Beowulf (which Tolkien was very familiar with). I can rant on about Tolkien's sources, but I won't.

[Serpentine]

Shouldn't Australian lycanthropes turn into thylacines?Dingoes, dear :smallwink:
The only legend I know relating to thylacines is that they're still alive somewhere... And, really, given how wild Tasmania is, it's not really all that out there.

[Science Officer]

The people of Pegana have some of the most interesting myths.
Lovecraft might have drawn on some of their mythology (much as Tolkien drew on various others) in creating his Mythos.
You can really see the similarities between MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI and Azathoth, and that giant thing at the galactic rim kind of reminded me of Yog-Sothoth. Kinda.
You can read some of the Mythology of Pegana here (http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8395/pg8395.html)(translated by the Lord Dunsany), so it is written, and hath been said.


Pegana is not a place. This is mythopeia, not mythology. SSSSH!

[Zaydos]

The people of Pegana have some of the most interesting myths.
Lovecraft might have drawn on some of their mythology (much as Tolkien drew on various others) in creating his Mythos.
You can really see the similarities between MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI and Azathoth, and that giant thing at the galactic rim kind of reminded me of Yog-Sothoth. Kinda.
You can read some of the Mythology of Pegana here (http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8395/pg8395.html)(translated by the Lord Dunsany), so it is written, and hath been said.


Dunsany was an awesome translator. Yes, awesome reference.

[Xuc Xac]

Still used in Swedish - lik (lich) = corpse.

It's still used in English too. It appears in the word "lichgate", a cemetery entrance. And the original "k" pronunciation of the "ch" survives in phrases such as "I've never seen its like before" or "I didn't expect to hear that from the likes of you".

[Zaydos]

It's still used in English too. It appears in the word "lichgate", a cemetery entrance. And the original "k" pronunciation of the "ch" survives in phrases such as "I've never seen its like before" or "I didn't expect to hear that from the likes of you".

I knew lichgate (I still don't know for sure if in the sagas lich was used for the barrow undead, but seeing as how Poul Anderson was capable of translating sagas I'm rather inclined to trust him in this*) but I didn't know about the phrases. That is interesting.

*This is just made interesting that Tolkien chose wight instead of lich. They both had obviously read Grettir's Saga (as Tolkien admitted to drawing from one portion of it and Anderson rewrote a few scenes of it as a short story with a new happy ending that would never happen in Norse myth), although Anderson's was not actually buried in a barrow ever. I'm sure there are plenty of reasons, some occurring to me as I type, but I still find it interesting.

[Conners]

Come to think of it... did zombies originate from ancient mythology, or from the Night of the Living Dead film?

[Serpentine]

Depends what you mean by "zombie". The "origin" I know of is from voodoo religion. Unscrupulous people would poison someone, who would fall into a deep coma. Their family, thinking they're dead, would bury them. The villain would dig them up, half-revive them into a very biddable state, and then use them as near-mindless slaves.
Walking dead... Well, I'm pretty sure there's at least a few old stories like that.

[Conners]

Ah, was thinking there'd be at least some stories the movie's creatures might be based off. Nowadays, they're a pop-culture phenomenon in games (so many games with zombies....).

While this might seem odd, myths like the one you mentioned, I find those very interesting. I've found everything in the thread interesting, but stories about odd monsters in particular seem to grab my attention.

Anyone know any unique monster myths? I've been wondering about the darker, more old-fashioned Seelie and Unseelie lately. One creature I heard of were female vampires with goat hooves, who had a fear of iron.

[Asta Kask]

Come to think of it... did zombies originate from ancient mythology, or from the Night of the Living Dead film?

The Romero zombie shares many aspects with the Eastern European vampire - consumes human flesh, contagious, and not very sexy at all. I'd say the mindless undead minion controlled by the evil sorcerer is a Haitian concept.

[Frozen_Feet]

They are a mix of older legends. Comparison to vampires is apt, especially the older myths that put more weight to vampyres as a metaphor for disease rather than sexual deviance or what the heck they're asociated with these days. XD

[Conners]

@Asta Kask: That reminds me of dsomething. With stuff like Vampire-Hunters, or Monster-Hunters in general, did those types of people appear in mythology/stories/whatever frequently? You do of course get the story of the wandering hero or god who wipes out all the dragons or whichever. Was just wondering if you got more mundane people who did it as a job in stories (kind of like The Witcher).


@Frozen_Feet: Well, in recent days, vampires are meant to be the emo version of Superman, or ninjas (ie: Twilight).

Aside from that, usually they're a supered version of the movie-Dracula, sometimes with loads of sex-appeal taped on. Flying, strength, speed, magic--they're usually the champions of undead creatures in terms of power.

[Serpentine]

Gilgamesh is probably the original, and then there's Herakles/Hercules (see his Tasks). There's a couple of gods who pretty much do that... And maybe Beowulf.
That's off the top of my head, I'm sure there's plenty more.

[Asta Kask]

I don't know about the original, but Gilgamesh's the first one we know of... the Sumerian war god Ninurta apparently wandered the world with a club, a bow and arrow and a lion's pelt so he may be the prototype for Herakles. And he's still adventuring in the Marvel and DC universes...

As for mortals doing these kinds of things I'd look to the Greek mythology. Not because the Adventuring Hero was necessary more common there, but simply because it has survived better.

[Serpentine]

Ninurta, that was the god I was thinking of, ta.

[Mina Kobold]

@Asta Kask: That reminds me of dsomething. With stuff like Vampire-Hunters, or Monster-Hunters in general, did those types of people appear in mythology/stories/whatever frequently? You do of course get the story of the wandering hero or god who wipes out all the dragons or whichever. Was just wondering if you got more mundane people who did it as a job in stories (kind of like The Witcher).

The witcher is based on medieval Witch-hunters, I believe.

They existed, never actually caught any monsters since they based their investigations on people's accusations of their neighbour with the much better herd of sheep being one but they hunted whatever people wanted them to. Usually vampires and witches.

Mythical ones have already been explained much by Asta and Serpentine, prasie their Myth-fu. :smallsmile:

[Asta Kask]

One of Thor's duties included killing monsters of all kinds, including trolls, goblins, witches, giants and dragons. Odin was mostly interested in learning from them and having sex with them.

[Zaydos]

Come to think of it... did zombies originate from ancient mythology, or from the Night of the Living Dead film?

In Night of the Living Dead they were called ghouls not zombies which were mythically a type of demon that ate human corpses.


@Asta Kask: That reminds me of dsomething. With stuff like Vampire-Hunters, or Monster-Hunters in general, did those types of people appear in mythology/stories/whatever frequently? You do of course get the story of the wandering hero or god who wipes out all the dragons or whichever. Was just wondering if you got more mundane people who did it as a job in stories (kind of like The Witcher).


Well Thor's job was Guardian of Midgard so he was a god who did it as a job. Edit: And ninja'd. There's a reason I prefer Thor to Odin.
There's also Hrolf Kraki's champions who ended up fighting an army of undead as part of their job.
The einherjar spent the afterlife training for a final battle against monsters.
On the Vampire-Hunters side there were dhampyrs or half-vampires who fought vampires for a living. Invisible vampires. That only they could see through tubes and had highly visible battles with.

[Asta Kask]

Then there's Loki... clearly a god of many functions. Could there be two traditions existing side-by-side that Snorri tried to mash together into one god?

He could be the god of Transsexuality, although I think he's too nasty for that role.

[Zaydos]

Then there's Loki... clearly a god of many functions. Could there be two traditions existing side-by-side that Snorri tried to mash together into one god?

He could be the god of Transsexuality, although I think he's too nasty for that role.

Oh the Lokasenna... him and Odin start accusing each other of being transsexual (a big crime in Norse culture, punishable by outlawry which was their highest punishment).

[Asta Kask]

Well Loki did give birth to Sleipnir. I don't think Odin ever changed form to woman, although he certainly dressed up as them on occasion.

[Zaydos]

Well Loki did give birth to Sleipnir. I don't think Odin ever changed form to woman, although he certainly dressed up as them on occasion.

Thor cross-dressed, Loki accuses Odin of being womanly for using magic, Odin counters with Sleipnir, Loki says something to top that, then Odin says something about Loki living in a cave for a few decades giving birth to creatures. As this is a senna (or lying insult game) unless there's another source that confirms the accusations they are not to be believed so that really means to my knowledge past Sleipnir it's all lies.

Edit: Had order wrong, Sleipnir and Loki's time in a cave were brought up first then the fact that Odin is a spell caster and disguises himself as a witch is brought up to prove he's the pot calling the kettle black. If you want to read the myth it can be found on wikisource http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Lokasenna. It's one of my favorite Norse myths (not counting the mythical sagas or the historical sagas as myths).

[Xondoure]

Wasn't Loki originally Logi: a full brother to Odin and god of the Hearth and commonfolk? Then later on he developed more sinister connotations (because clearly anyone who isn't interested in the warrior caste is evil)

[Zaydos]

Wasn't Loki originally Logi: a full brother to Odin and god of the Hearth and commonfolk? Then later on he developed more sinister connotations (because clearly anyone who isn't interested in the warrior caste is evil)

Not sure; took a class on Norse myths and it wasn't really mentioned but that just means I didn't hear about it. Loki is Odin's blood brother so there's that. He's also presented as a half-giant and if you put the myths in the order they are supposed to happen you can actually watch him descend into evil. He starts out as a trickster who is helpful to the gods at times and hurts them at times. Then he makes a bet with some dwarves and the Aesir judge in the dwarves favor and let the dwarves sew his mouth shut and he swore vengeance against the gods.

Logi did mean fire and Loki is associated with fire. There's actually a myth where he competes with Logi (literally fire disguised as a giant with illusions) in an eating contest.

[dehro]

I quite like the story/myth of the Golem..which incidentally terry pratchett adhered to quite closely when he introduced Golems in Discworld.
the whole "being activated by words", and especially the main myth of the Golem of Prague (the one created by the Maharal)...always struck a chord with me.

[Xuc Xac]

Anyone know any unique monster myths?

I could write several books, but I don't want to write them here. Could you ask more specific questions than just "what do you know?"

[Zaydos]

Well I'd like to know more about non-Greek/Norse monsters as that's where most of my knowledge comes from.

Specifically I'd be interested in non-Greek or Norse or Asian dragons, as well as non-Romanian vampires. That and any weird creatures that seem like something Pliny would write about (giant snakes that drop from trees, constrict elephants, and breathe out poison).

Oh yes just for more interesting tidbits ever looked into early descriptions of unicorns? Their most pervasive trait is how good they are at killing with their horn; both in Pliny and the Bible. It's only later they became associated with goodness and purity; first they killed things with their horns.

[Bhu]

I havent audited these in forever so hopefully they're all good, should be some dragon stuff in here:

A Classical Dictionary of Hindu Mythology http://books.google.com/books?id=PwsYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=a+dictionary+of+hindu+mythology#v=onepage&q=&f=false
A Fairy Encyclopedia http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/4611/fairyenc.html
A History of Dragons http://www.biopark.org/dragonhistory.html
Aadizookaanag http://www.kstrom.net/isk/stories/myths.html
About Mythology http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_myth_index.htm
Adlet Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adlet
Al http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_%28Armenian_folklore%29
All About Unicorns http://www.allaboutunicorns.com/
American Folklore http://www.americanfolklore.net/
Ancient Egypt: The Mythology http://www.egyptianmyths.net/
Ancient Egyptian Deities http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/religion/osiris1.html
Ancient Egyptian Mythology http://www.egyptianculture.net/
Ancient Egyptian Religion http://www.aldokkan.com/religion/religion.htm
Ancient Finnish Myths http://www.finnishmyth.org/
Assyro-Babylonian Mythology http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/assyrbabyl-faq.html
At the Edge http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/edge/index.htm
Atlas of Myths http://snow.prohosting.com/myths1/
Aztec Mythology http://www.cis.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1994/3/94.03.03.x.html
Beowulf http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/AnoBeow.html
Beowulf, again http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/beowulf/
Bloody Lexicon http://www.bloodylexicon.com/
Bouda WIki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouda
Buggane Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buggane
Canaanite/Ugaritic Mythology http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/canaanite-faq.html
Caribbean Mythology http://www.godslaidbare.com/pantheons/caribbean/A-Z-list.php
CeltNet http://www.celtnet.org.uk/
Celtic Literature Collective http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/index.html
Celtic Mythology http://www.interfaith.org/ancient/celtic/
Celtic Mythology and Lore http://www.celticgrounds.com/chapters/mytholsection/myth-start.htm
Celtic Studies Resources http://www.digitalmedievalist.com/
Celtic Twilight http://www.celtic-twilight.com/ireland/
Celtopedia http://celtopedia.druidcircle.net/index.php?title=Main_Page
ChinaVista: Chinese Myths and Fantasies http://www.chinavista.com/experience/myth/myth.html
ChinaVista: Deities Worshipped by Farmers http://www.chinavista.com/experience/joss1/deities.html
ChinaVista: Selected Chinese Myths and Fantasies http://www.chinavista.com/experience/story/story.html
Chinese Legends http://beifan.com/026topic/26legends.html
Chiricahua and Mescalero Apache Texts http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/apache/ChiMesc2.html
Choctaw Legends and Stories http://www.tc.umn.edu/~mboucher/mikebouchweb/choctaw/legends2.htm
Christine O' Keefe's Monster/Faery Page http://www.tartanplace.com/ftoc.html
Classical Myth Homepage http://web.uvic.ca/grs/bowman/myth/
Classical Myths and Legends http://oldweb.uwp.edu/academic/english/canary/gods.htm
Classical Myths: The Ancient Sources http://web.uvic.ca/grs/department_files/classical_myth/index.html
Cosmology of the Ancient Balts http://www.lithuanian.net/mitai/cosmos/baltai.htm
Dates in Irish Myth and Legend http://www.legendarytours.com/dates.html
Dave's Mythical Creature's and Places http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/
**** Caldwell's Greek Myths http://www.greecetravel.com/greekmyths/
Dragon Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon
Eddas and Sagas http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/asatru/free.html
Egyptian Legendary Creatures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Egyptian_legendary_creatures
Egyptian Mythology Today http://www.thanasis.com/egypt/egypt.htm
Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/catalogue/catalogue1.htm
Encantado Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encantado
Encyclopedia Mythica http://www.pantheon.org/
Encyclopedia of Dragons http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/01925/encyclo.html
Engkanto http://library.thinkquest.org/27661/docs/engkanto.htm
Eoster http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/JO-Eo.html
Epona.net http://www.epona.net/
Everything You Need to Know About Vampires http://www.angelfire.com/tn/vampires/index.html
FOlklore, Myth, and Legend http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~dkbrown/storfolk.html
Fearsome Critters Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearsome_Critters
Folklore of the Orkney Islands http://www.orkneyjar.com/folklore/index.html
Fruit of the Nile http://www.fruitofthenile.com/
Gateways to Bablyon http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/
Gazu Hyakki Yako http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazu_Hyakki_Yak%C5%8D
Germanic Mythology http://users.dickinson.edu/~eddyb/mythology/Cover_page.html
Germanic Myths, Legends, and Sagas http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/mythlinks.html
Ghosts in Bengali Culture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghosts_in_Bengali_culture
Giants, Monsters, and Dragons http://books.google.com/books?id=GKrACS_n86wC&printsec=frontcover&dq=giants+monsters+and+dragons#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Godchecker http://www.godchecker.com/
Gods and Goddesses of the World http://www.scns.com/earthen/other/seanachaidh/godgoddess.html
Gods, Heroes, and Myths http://www.gods-heros-myth.com/
Greek Mythology http://library.thinkquest.org/26264/student.htm
Greek Mythology http://www.greekmythology.com/
Greek Mythology http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/scaffold/GG/greek_myth.html
Greek Mythology http://www.messagenet.com/myths/
Greek Mythology Link beware popup http://www.maicar.com/GML/
Greek Mythology Today http://mythman.com/
Grimm's Teutonic Mythology http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/
Guardian's Egypt http://guardians.net/egypt/religion.htm
Hantu Demon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hantu_Demon
Hawaiian Legends http://www.nativehawaii.com/hawaiianlegends.html
Heraldry http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/1940/heraldry.html
Hindu Gods and Goddesses http://www.indian-heritage.org/gindex.html
Hittite/Hurrian Mythology http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/hittite-ref.html
Home of the Squirrel http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1734/
Hungarian Myths and Legends http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/legend.htm
Indian Divinity http://www.webonautics.com/mythology/mythology.html
Indian Mythology http://www.indianmythology.com/
Internet Sacred Text Archive http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
Inuit Mythology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_mythology
Inuit Mythology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_mythology
Irish Literature, Mythology, Folklore, and Drama http://www.luminarium.org/mythology/ireland/
IrishAbroad: Irish Mythology http://www.irishabroad.com/YourRoots/Mythology/
Japanese Myth http://www.st.rim.or.jp/~cycle/myrefE.HTML
Japanese Mythology http://www.interq.or.jp/www-user/fuushi/e-myth-a.htm
Jotun Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jotun
Kalevala http://www.helsinki.fi/kasv/nokol/kalevala.html
Kamat's Potpourri: Indian Mythology http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/mythology/
Korean Dragon Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_dragon
Lady Izabella's Vampiric Encyclopedia http://www.geocities.com/lady_izabell/abc.html
Legendary Creatures Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_creatures
Legendary Creatures Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Legendary_creature_stubs
Legendary Creatures in Japanese Myth beware popup http://www.tiosam.com/ingles/encyclopedia/enciclopedia.asp?title=List_of_legendary_creatures _in_Japanese_mythology
Legends from the Tombs http://www.geocities.com/vampiress_sonja/main.html
Legends of Guam http://ns.gov.gu/legends.html
Leszi Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leszi
Life in Ancient Egypt http://www.carnegiemnh.org/exhibits/egypt/index.htm
Lindworm Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindworm
List of Vampires in Folklore and Mythology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vampires_in_folklore_and_mythology
Lithuanian Mythological Tales http://ausis.gf.vu.lt/eka/verbalf/mtcont.html
Lithuanian Mythology Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_mythology
Lithuanian Religion and Mythology http://ausis.gf.vu.lt/eka/mythology/relmyth.html
Little Glossary of Irish Mythology http://yesss.club.fr/Celts/f_celts.htm
Living Myths http://www.livingmyths.com/index.htm
Lugodoc's Guide to Celtic Mythology http://www.lugodoc.demon.co.uk/MYTH/MYTH01.HTM
Luxor http://www.geocities.com/Isis_Artemis_0/entrance.html
Magical Beasts http://www.magicalbeasts.com/
Manx Notes and Queries http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/mnq1904/index.htm#contents
Medea's Lair http://www.geocities.com/medea19777/
Mitoloxia Asturiana beware popup http://www.geocities.com/mouguias/
Miwu http://absurdism.org/kemet/
MonoMyth http://www.monomyth.org/
Monsters and Fabulous Beasts From Ancient and Medieval Cultures http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/monster_list.html
Monstropedia http://www.monstropedia.org/index.php?title=Main_Page
Museum of Mythology http://www.museumofmythology.com/
MythNET http://www.classicsunveiled.com/mythnet/html/index.html
Mythic Creatures http://www.geocities.com/z_mythica/
Mythical Creature A Day http://mythicalcreatureaday.blogspot.com/
Mything Links http://mythinglinks.org/home.html
Mythological Creatures and Beasts http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/
Mythology at FreshCaffeine http://myths.freshcaffeine.com/
Mythology, Legend, Folklore, and Ghosts http://www.teacheroz.com/myth-legend.htm
Mythome http://www.mythome.org/mythhome.htm
Myths and Legends http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/myth.html
Myths and Myth Makers http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/FisMyth.html
Myths of Babylonia and Assyria http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16653
Mythweb Greek mythology http://www.mythweb.com/
Naga Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naga_%28mythology%29
Nagual Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahual
Names of Gods and Goddesses http://lowchensaustralia.com/names/gods.htm
Native American Legendary Creatures Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Native_American_legendary_creatures
Native American Legends http://www.legendsofamerica.com/NA-IndianMyths.html
Native American Legends, Myths, and Lore beware popup http://www.angelfire.com/ca/Indian/stories.html
Native American Lore Index http://www.ilhawaii.net/%7Estony/loreindx.html
Native American Myth Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_mythology
Native American Mythology Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Native_American_mythology
Native American Myths http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1998/2/98.02.02.x.html
Native American Myths and Monsters http://community.livejournal.com/nativemonster
Native American Myths of Creation http://www.crystalinks.com/nativeamcreation.html
Native American Tales and Songs http://members.cox.net/academia/naindex.html
Norse Fornnordisk Mytologi http://web.telia.com/~u85906673/asar/
Norse Myth WIki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythology
Norse Mythology http://www.godslaidbare.com/pantheons/norse/index.php
North American Mythology Stubs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:North_American_mythology_stubs
Nue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nue
Occultopedia http://www.occultopedia.com/welcome.htm
Odin's Castle of Dreams and Legends http://www.odinscastle.org/odin3.html
Old Greek Stories http://oaks.nvg.org/old-greek-tales.html
Paranormal Entity Checklist http://sonic.net/~ric/go/xlist.htm
Probert Encyclopedia of Mythology http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/mythology.htm
Puca Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%BAca
Qadash Kinahnu http://www.geocities.com/soho/lofts/2938/
Quetzalcoatl: The Man, the Myth, the Legend http://weber.ucsd.edu/~anthclub/quetzalcoatl/quetzal.htm
Regional Folklore and Mythology http://www.pibburns.com/mythregi.htm
Roman Mythology http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8991/roman.html
Roman Mythology beware popups http://www.angelfire.com/geek/romanmyth/
Russian Folklore http://www.bama.ua.edu/~adrozd/rus252/folklorelinks.html
Sacred Hunger http://books.google.com/books?id=dYvy52eOfzgC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=bebarlangs&source=bl&ots=LApgRzUkXh&sig=ph23GUHff4I-0_Wt0OIg-vJRnY8&hl=en&ei=XK2aS9fwDsP-8Aa43M3-DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=13&ved=0CCQQ6AEwDA#v=onepage&q=bebarlangs&f=false
Sagnanet http://www.sagnanet.is/
Scandinavian Mythology and Folklore http://www.ststlocations.com/Archives/Scandinavian/
Scary for Kids: Japanese Legends http://www.scaryforkids.com/japanese-legends/
Sea Monster Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_monster
Seanachi http://www.seanachi.org/
Shroud Eater http://www.shroudeater.com/main.html
Sidhe Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADde
Slavic Mythology Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology
South Asian Folklore http://books.google.com/books?id=au_Vk2VYyrkC&pg=PP1&dq=south+asian+folklore#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Stenudd http://www.stenudd.com/myth/
Stories from Indian Myth for Kids http://www.indolink.com/Kidz/mythology.html
Stories of the Dreaming http://www.dreamtime.net.au/dreaming/index.htm
SurLaLune Fairy Tales Page http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/
TempleNet http://www.indiantemples.com/legends.html
Tengu Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengu
Teutonic Mythology http://www.boudicca.de/teut.htm
The Aberdeen Bestiary http://www.abdn.ac.uk/bestiary/
The Ancient Religion of the Finns http://finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=25814
The Best of Legends http://bestoflegends.org/index.html
The Cult of the Serpent http://books.google.com/books?id=PDkuiPhZJr0C&pg=PP1&dq=cult+of+the+serpent#v=onepage&q=&f=false
The Dragon Bestiary http://bestiarium.net/index-e.html
The Dragon Stone http://www.polenth.com/
The Encyclopedia of Hotcak Mythology http://hotcakencyclopedia.com/
The Golden Bough http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3623
The Hindu Universe http://www.hindunet.org/god/
The Magic Web http://www.johnadcox.com/Mythology_and_Folklore.html
The Maya in Time http://www.jaguar-sun.com/gods.html
The Medieval Bestiary http://bestiary.ca/index.html
The Obakemono Project http://www.obakemono.com/introduction.php
The Popol Vuh http://www.jaguar-sun.com/popolvuh.html
The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2069
The Sacred Fire http://www.sacredfire.net/
The Vedic Age http://www.astronomy.pomona.edu/archeo/india/as-india.html
The World of Gwdihw http://www.gwdihw.com/
Theoi Project http://www.theoi.com/
Thinkquest: Greek Mythology http://library.thinkquest.org/C005321/tq/
Through the Eyes of Native Americans http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0215453/
Thunderbird Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbird_%28mythology%29
Timeless Myths http://www.timelessmyths.com/
Tir na nOg http://www.alia.ie/tirnanog/myth1.html
Tracing the Cliff God http://www.internetix.ofw.fi/tutkimus/muinaistaide/kalliojumala/e-kalliojumala/
Tuatha De Danaan Family Tree http://baharna.com/celtic/index.htm
UCAN Online http://www.ucan-online.org/legends.asp
UNRV: Roman Myth http://www.unrv.com/culture/mythology.php
Vampire Glossary http://www.angelfire.com/ga/calystomouse/glossary.html
Vampire Rave http://www.vampirerave.com/db/index.php?category=6
Vampire State http://www.vampirestate.net/
Vampire Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire
Vampires http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/vampire/
Vampires A-Z http://vampiresaz.webs.com/ab.htm
Vampires in India http://www.answers.com/topic/vampires-in-india
Vampires: A Guide to Creatures that Stalk the Night http://books.google.com/books?id=lK0iQcCUZqkC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Vampires: Encounters with the Undead http://books.google.com/books?id=hjmUhK5TtigC&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=bibi+gypsy+vampire&source=bl&ots=6UbaOWZIiX&sig=YmV2tB3OH11qO7K9SuJ9Gc1BCZM&hl=en&ei=w0jJS9WbJIfy9QTkkaC5BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=bibi%20gypsy%2
Wendigo Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendigo
Werecat Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werecat
Werecats http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werecat
Werewolf Page http://www.werewolfpage.com/index.html
Werewolf Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf
Where Something Stands http://www.carleton.ca/gallery/Inuit/stories.htm
White Buffalo Calf Woman Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Buffalo_Calf_Woman
Women in Greek Myths http://www.paleothea.com/
World Myths and Legends in Art http://www.artsmia.org/world-myths/
World Vampire Myths beware popup http://enchanteddoorway.tripod.com/vamp/greece.html
Yellow Scents http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/8952/phoenix.html
Zmeu Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zmeu

[Xuc Xac]

non-Romanian vampires.

The penanggalan and the "hopping vampire" are fairly well covered in gaming already, but here's one you probably haven't heard about from Vietnam.

There was a beautiful woman named Nhan Diep. She was married to a farmer named Ngoc Tam. He grew rice and she raised silkworms. They had a simple life, but it seemed like they would live happily ever after. However, Nhan Diep was a lazy flirt who dreamed of living a life of luxury. She hid her dissatisfaction from her husband because he genuinely loved her and worked hard to make their lives better. He assumed she was happy. Then she suddenly died. Ngoc Tam was heartbroken. He refused to leave Nhan Diep's body and opposed its burial. He eventually sold off all of his belongings and sailed away in a sampan with his wife's coffin.

One day he came to a green hill covered with thousands of rare flowers and orchards full of fruit. He met an old man there. He had white hair and a leathery face but his eyes sparkled like a little boy's, so Ngoc Tam recognized him as the god of medicine who travels the world on the back of his moving mountain to ease the suffering in the world. The god of medicine had heard of Ngoc Tam's virtues and stopped his mountain in his path to invite him to join him as a disciple. Ngoc Tam refused. When asked why he still clung to the world of bitterness, Ngoc Tam said he only wanted to live with his wife. The god of medicine thought it was foolish to put all his hopes on her. The god agreed to grant the farmer's wish, although he thought it would lead to regret.

He opened the coffin and told Ngoc Tam to cut his finger and let three drops of blood fall on Nhan Diep's body. Her eyes fluttered open and she slowly came to her senses. The god warned her to remember her obligations and her husband's devotion. He wished them happiness and sent them on their way.

Ngoc Tam rowed day and night to get back to their native land. He stopped in a large port and went ashore to get supplies. While he was gone a rich merchant in a big ship docked next to their little boat. He was quite taken by Nhan Diep's beauty and invited her aboard his ship for some refreshments. Once she was on board, he gave the order to cast off and sail away. Ngoc Tam looked for her for a month but eventually found her. She answered all his questions without hesitation but refused to go back with him. She liked her life of luxury on the merchant's boat. Ngoc Tam finally saw her as she really was and all his love for her vanished. He said "You're free. Only return to me the three drops of my blood that I gave for you. I don't want to leave any part of me with you." Nhan Diep was happy to get away so lightly, so he took a knife and cut her finger. She immediately turned pale when the blood began to flow, then she dropped dead.

She could not resign herself to leave this world, so she returned in the form of a small insect. She relentlessly hunted Ngoc Tam for the rest of his life, buzzing in his ears to beg his pardon, and trying to bite him to steal back the three drops of blood that would return her to human life. Unfortunately for us, her race has multiplied many times.

[Conners]

I could write several books, but I don't want to write them here. Could you ask more specific questions than just "what do you know?" Well, one thing I've been thinking about lately is great beasts heroes slay--anything from the knights of the Round Table to gods, when I say heroes.
Also, emphasis on great, as in unique or generally special (if they kill ogres every week, it'd have to be a pretty interesting ogre).

One thing I found interesting was the tarrasque I read about, with eight bear paws, head of the lion, fire breath, and the shell of the turtle. They talked about a female(?) knight who tamed it and lead it to the village where it was killed by the villagers. A legend based off Jean d'Arc?

[Zaydos]

Well, one thing I've been thinking about lately is great beasts heroes slay--anything from the knights of the Round Table to gods, when I say heroes.
Also, emphasis on great, as in unique or generally special (if they kill ogres every week, it'd have to be a pretty interesting ogre).

One thing I found interesting was the tarrasque I read about, with eight bear paws, head of the lion, fire breath, and the shell of the turtle. They talked about a female(?) knight who tamed it and lead it to the village where it was killed by the villagers. A legend based off Jean d'Arc?

Not Jean d'Arc, it was Saint Martha.

[Conners]

Not Jean d'Arc, it was Saint Martha. Oh, that's right. Thanks for that, Zaydos.

[Serpentine]

Not a knight, either, as far as I know. Just a travelling holywoman. It's one of those sad stories where the beast is tamed and rendered harmless, but the people tear it to pieces anyway :smallfrown:

(oh, and, carrying on from the drastic off-topicness from the Questionable Content thread, the Tarrasque is a very good example of the overall at least slightly stronger connection of dragons with water than with fire :smallamused:)

[Asta Kask]

Specifically I'd be interested in non-Greek or Norse or Asian dragons, as well as non-Romanian vampires. That and any weird creatures that seem like something Pliny would write about (giant snakes that drop from trees, constrict elephants, and breathe out poison)

Well, there's Tiamat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat), but according to Wikipedia her status as a dragon is up for grabs. Serp, any comments?

And then there's Zahhak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azi_Dahaka) from Persian mythology.

But really, look a wikipedia. There's plenty of weird stuff there.

[Serpentine]

I'm gonna use her anyway (there's at least evidence that she's connected to other more definitely draconic creatures such as Leviathan and Typhon and so on), but yeah, I'm gonna have to try to find out just when they did start referring to her as a dragon - monstrous, yes (she has an udder, apparently, among other things), but not specifically draconic.

I'll post some more of my thesis stuff later, if you like. I've got a whole list of all the serpents and dragons I could find in the ancient African-Middle Eastern-Near Eastern-Mediterranean area.

I find Canaanite mythology very interesting, but mostly for reasons I almost certainly can't discuss in detail here.

[Fri]

My favourite certain part of mythology is Mahabharata, for a specific reason that's I'm going to tell. Our mythology is related to indian mythology in the same way how roman mythology is related to greek mythology.

Anyway, the main characters in mahabharata is a five man band! Might it be the first five man band in literature? the pandawa five have Yudhistira the wise leader, Bima the hotblooded muscle, Arjuna the pretty-boy playboy archer, and Nakula-Sadewa the prankish, intelligent twin as the chick/smart guy combination.

[Eldan]

That's only four, though, unless I'm mistaken.

[Fri]

nakula and sadewa are twins, and those two are usually considered an item when talking about them. Yeah, twins are stereotyped like that even thousands of years in the past.

[Eldan]

Ah, twins. I missed that part.

[Fri]

And I forgot. There's even the antiheroic sixth ranger!

Mahabharatha was fought by two sides, the pandawa (which are considered the good guys) and the kurawa. The pandawa were lead by those five siblings. There's actually the sixth sibling, Karna.

the story goes that Karna was abandoned as a baby for some reason and adopted by a lowly chariot driver of the kurawa side. But he rose into a general with hard work and talent. I remember that there's a story about him getting into an archery contest as a lowly soldier, got ridiculed, but managed to tie with pandawa's sharpshooter, arjuna. But because he's a lowly soldier, the the win was given to arjuna.

Anyway, later pandawa's chief strategist found out about him, and tried to turn him into the pandawa's side. But Karna rejected, saying that his family is the kurawa now, and things like honor and loyalty and stuffs. So later in the war he's killed in an archery duel with Arjuna.

how troperific is that.

[Asta Kask]

Ah, twins. I missed that part.

Twins turn up a lot in Indo-European mythology... Castor and Polydeukes/Pollux, Hengist and Horsa, there's a bunch in Irish legends... twins are magical.

[Conners]

Just thought of something that has been bugging me for a while. You know how DnD has the Feymire and whatnot? From what I understand, there is a fairyworld that this is based off--know much about it?

[Asta Kask]

The Celts and the Slavs both have Otherworlds with a lot in common. Everything is better, brighter, livelier. The men are manlier, the women are... womanlier? and the livestock are larger and healthier. This is a place of adventure, where the call for glory is ever present.

They were probably the model for the Feyworld.

[Mina Kobold]

The Celts and the Slavs both have Otherworlds with a lot in common. Everything is better, brighter, livelier. The men are manlier, the women are... womanlier? and the livestock are larger and healthier. This is a place of adventure, where the call for glory is ever present.

They were probably the model for the Feyworld.

There's also the Norse place, Alfaheim I think, where the elves live.

It's pretty much a mysterious world filled with mysterious otherworldly elves of mysteriousness.

[Serpentine]

I think pretty much every culture that has "fairies" - and probably a large number that don't (lookin' at you, Aboriginal Dreaming) - has a "fairy world".

[dehro]

I havent audited these in forever so hopefully they're all good, should be some dragon stuff in here:

[plenty of stuff]

I'm not sure whether I'm scared by the ammount of time and energy you've spent researching the matter..something I've been known to do myself... or whether it worries me more that you should have a file with these texts and links at the ready...lol

[Conners]

I'm not sure whether I'm scared by the ammount of time and energy you've spent researching the matter..something I've been known to do myself... or whether it worries me more that you should have a file with these texts and links at the ready...lol I think the reason we're posting so little is we're busying devouring Bhu's post of links :smallbiggrin:. To bad about a couple of broken links :smallfrown:.

[Xuc Xac]

I think pretty much every culture that has "fairies" - and probably a large number that don't (lookin' at you, Aboriginal Dreaming) - has a "fairy world".

I have heard theories that the reason that fairies are vulnerable to iron in Celtic myths is because the Celts were an Iron Age people who moved into their territory and took it from a Neolithic people by force of arms. The stories about fairies and mischievous spirits of the forests and wild places who fear iron are just the half-remembered remnants of the conquest. Over time "the people in the forest learned to fear our iron weapons" transformed into "the forest people fear iron" and the forest people stopped being another human tribe and started to be seen as an inhuman creature (which probably wasn't too big a step considering humanity's long tradition of dehumanizing enemies).

As for the request for unique monsters, I just remembered one today while looking at all the threads about character optimization in the RP forum. Narasinga, the Hindu god of killing rules lawyers and munchkins. :smallbiggrin:

Vishnu killed a rakshasa, which wasn't really unusual behavior for him, but this really angered the rakshasa's brother, Hiranyakashipu. Hiranyakashipu decided to get revenge. His plan was to load up on mystical powers and then kill the god, Vishnu. He does this by meditating and living like an ascetic for many years until one day Brahma appears to him. Brahma is impressed by the way the demon has been acting penitent so he grants him a wish. Hiranyakashipu wishes that he cannot be killed:

by any man or animal
while indoors or outdoors
during the day or night
while on the ground or in the sky
by any weapon, animate or inanimate
by any creature created by Brahma, by any demigod, or demon

In addition to all that, he wishes for all the magical powers that are normally granted by long study through the yogas. So, basically "immunity to everything and all the levels in the Yogi prestige class for free". And Brahma gives it to him! Hiranyakashipu sets about being master of all he surveys, but his son grows up to be a bit of a rebel and turns out to be a Vishnu worshiper. Hiranyakashipu decides to kill his son because Vishnu is his enemy. Every time he tries, he's thwarted by his son's bizarre luck because Vishnu is giving him the benefit of divine intervention. His son tells him the Vishnu is everywhere: Vishnu's in the smallest twig and even in that pillar right there.
"That pillar?"
"That pillar."
"Oh, yeah? Then where is he?" And Hiranyakashipu smashed the pillar. Sure enough, there was Vishnu. He incarnated in the form of Narasinga, an avatar chosen specifically to get around Hiranyakashipu's immunities.

Narasinga is a half-man/half-lion, neither human nor beast and not created by Brahma. Narasinga grabbed Hiranyakashipu at twilight (neither day nor night) and carried him into the doorway (neither inside nor out) and put him over his knee (neither on the ground nor in the air), then ripped his entrails out with his long claw-like nails (weapons that are neither animate nor inanimate). Moral of the story: Don't think you can "win" through optimization because there's always a way to smack you down if you don't play nice.

[Asta Kask]

So... Hiranyakashipu was a munchkin? I can totally see my players ask for something like that.

Re: vampires. Apparently even the Sumerians had ravenous dead - the goddess Inanna (Ishtar to the Babylonians) threatened to tear down the gate to the underworld so the dead would eat the living if she didn't get her way.

[Fri]

That hiranyakashipu story was awesome :smallbiggrin:

Anyone here know more mythologies with 'space whale aesop?'

I mean, morals with realistic premise, but not really applicable/useful in real world?

It's from one of the star trek movie: Protect the environment (realistic) or giant space whale will destroy earth in the future (not really).

[Serpentine]

Have a look at some of the old aboriginal stories. I found one anthology on Project Gutenberg that is full of that sort of thing. There's one - which I only half remember - where a man with 3 wives wanted some honey from high up in the tree. The first wife climbed up, stuck her arm in... and couldn't get out. So the man climbed up and chopped her arm off to get her free. She quickly died. Same with the next 2 wives.
Can't actually remember how it ended, but it wasn't well. No actual lesson appeared to be found.

[Conners]

Have a look at some of the old aboriginal stories. I found one anthology on Project Gutenberg that is full of that sort of thing. There's one - which I only half remember - where a man with 3 wives wanted some honey from high up in the tree. The first wife climbed up, stuck her arm in... and couldn't get out. So the man climbed up and chopped her arm off to get her free. She quickly died. Same with the next 2 wives.
Can't actually remember how it ended, but it wasn't well. No actual lesson appeared to be found. That doesn't sound as good as the one where the tiger demon gets killed o.o".

[Arachu]

Have a look at some of the old aboriginal stories. I found one anthology on Project Gutenberg that is full of that sort of thing. There's one - which I only half remember - where a man with 3 wives wanted some honey from high up in the tree. The first wife climbed up, stuck her arm in... and couldn't get out. So the man climbed up and chopped her arm off to get her free. She quickly died. Same with the next 2 wives.
Can't actually remember how it ended, but it wasn't well. No actual lesson appeared to be found.

Judging by what I've heard so far, it seems to caution against greed, reckless ambition, and covetousness in general. Might also hit chauvinism and/or respect of women.

The last bit especially if he suffered somehow in the end.

... Man, that must've been some really good honey.

[Fri]

I thought the lesson was:

If the first two subjects died in the same way, you might need to think of another way

Or something in that line.

Very useful for villains with henchmen facing murderous ancient temples.

[Serpentine]

Judging by what I've heard so far, it seems to caution against greed, reckless ambition, and covetousness in general. Might also hit chauvinism and/or respect of women.

The last bit especially if he suffered somehow in the end.

I thought the lesson was:

If the first two subjects died in the same way, you might need to think of another wayYou'd think so, wouldn't you.
I'll have a look for it, but if I can't find it on here I'll have to wait 'til I get my computer set up.