A Study in Epic

[Icewalker]

I am looking to study, for the purpose of better understanding and therefore creating, the feeling of EPIC in media. I mean epic like the highest points of Lord of the Rings. Epic like this 1 minute and 24 seconds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP9qdHziilI&feature=related).

Some (edited in) notes about what kind of epic I'm talking about:
I'm not talking about the literary genre 'epic'. I'm definitely not talking about 'really cool'. I think the most relevant word is awe, and soaring emotional awe, not just awe for special effects or the like. Scenes like the charge of the Rohirrim, the siege of Minas Tirith. Most well done dramatic speeches have some measure of this, although what they lead in to often is a better example.

Impressive =/= epic. People who were badass soldiers, or did incredible things, are not relevant to this. A really cool fight scene will generally not be epic because of the special effects or the power level, it will be epic because of the presentation and the meaning of the battle.

I'm talking about mostly a media presentation of something that would instill incredible awe. Epic is largely about execution in this case, as much as content. I'm looking for is things like the buildup and music that are used to make a scene epic: what music works and why? How does foreshadowing and plot come together to make a finale more awe-inspiring and incredible? That's the kind of 'epic' I'm looking for.



But I'm not sure how to go about this. I mean, one good method simply to start is to find things that do it well (or that do it poorly) and watch or read them. So, if you have any suggestions, shoot, and do explain a bit about them (no spoilers). And I'm talking huge scale epic, not awesome, not super powerful or intense or high action, but specifically this vein of awe-inspiring.

And then I'm looking for other ways to look into this. I mean, it's not the easiest thing to find "research" on, so I'm not sure that would pan out particularly. Any ideas?

[Obrysii]

Probably belongs in Media discussions.

Everything from Two Steps from Hell is epic.

[Ranger Mattos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy

In the film of his life (To Hell and Back), they actually cut stuff out that they thought the audience wouldn't believe was real. He was awarded every medal the US could possibly give him, plus other countries gave medals to him. He's on a stamp, and a middle school in Texas was named after him.

Seriously.

[CurlyKitGirl]

You're going to want to define epic first.
Epic as in the literary genre known as the epic, epic as in AWESOME!!1!, epic as in what?

Once you have a rough definition of it everything'll start to come together.

Given that you're going for media (specify which types) you'll probably want to pick certain technical aspects as well which could make something epic.
The charge of the Rohan for instance I would consider epic (both at Helm's Deep) and at Minas Tirtith, but in the same vein I would say the wildebeest scene from The Lion King is epic because of the music, the buildup, the technical skills which were ground breaking at the time for hand-drawn animation.

You're definitely going to need to define epic before you do anything else.

[shawnhcorey]

Here's four other guys to go with Audie: 5 Real Life Soldiers Who Make Rambo Look Like a ***** (http://www.cracked.com/article_17019_5-real-life-soldiers-who-make-rambo-look-like-*****.html) (2 pages).

They did make a movie out of Sgt. York but I don't know how actuate it was.

PS: Gee, I guess you can't use that word here, you know, the one that means a cat. :smalleek: I hope the link works. :smallfrown:

[Icewalker]

Yeah, I thought I did a pretty good job there, but apparently not.

Impressive =/= epic. People who were badass soldiers, or did incredible things, are not relevant to this. Like the examples I gave in the first post, I'm talking about mostly a media presentation of something that would instill incredible awe. I would agree with both the charge of the Rohirrim and also the Wildebeest stampede in the Lion King. Epic is largely about execution in this case, as much as content (hence using the music as an example).

The literary genre doesn't exactly apply. "Awesome" as it is used nowadays definitely does not describe it.

What I'm looking for is things like that buildup and music that is used to make a scene epic: what music works and why? How does foreshadowing and plot come together to make a finale more awe-inspiring and incredible? That's the kind of 'epic' I'm looking for. Also I'm editing these notes into the first post.

[shawnhcorey]

Here's what Peter Jackson said about the Battle of Helm's Deep:

"We found when we were cutting, you really needed to follow you main characters, your principle characters. If we had two or three shots of stunt guys fighting, you wanted to come back to one of your heroes.

"I think with any battle sequence, there has to be a fundamental purpose to the battle. If it's a global, strategic kind of purpose, you're trying to defend your castle because this person wants to take your castle, it's not compelling. And that's really what we had with Helm's Deep. When we were beginning to cut it together, it was just an attack on a castle. We felt strongly that we needed to make the battle have more a human quality, that there had to be more of an emotional reason for the battle to take place.

"So when we did our pickups for the Two Towers, we spent a day during our pickup shoot actually filming a group of actors and extras being terrified, huddled refugees, hearing the sounds of battle, reacting to various moments of the battle, suddenly, it had a purpose. I mean to have Viggo standing on the ramparts, drawing a sword, facing the Uriks[sic], and then you cut into the huddled women and children in the cave, and then back to Viggo, you felt, Wow, this guy is defending his people."

Peter Jackson on the Battle of Helm's Deep, "Editorial: Refining the Story" [12:27], Special Extended DVD Edition, disc 4, The Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.

The point is, even though you have something awesome happening, you always have to go back to the human scale so people can relate to it. Otherwise it would have little meaning.

[Dr.Epic]

I could tell you a lot about studying epic. I do have a PhD in Epicness.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Here's what Peter Jackson said about the Battle of Helm's Deep:

"We found when we were cutting, you really needed to follow you main characters, your principle characters. If we had two or three shots of stunt guys fighting, you wanted to come back to one of your heroes.

"I think with any battle sequence, there has to be a fundamental purpose to the battle. If it's a global, strategic kind of purpose, you're trying to defend your castle because this person wants to take your castle, it's not compelling. And that's really what we had with Helm's Deep. When we were beginning to cut it together, it was just an attack on a castle. We felt strongly that we needed to make the battle have more a human quality, that there had to be more of an emotional reason for the battle to take place.

"So when we did our pickups for the Two Towers, we spent a day during our pickup shoot actually filming a group of actors and extras being terrified, huddled refugees, hearing the sounds of battle, reacting to various moments of the battle, suddenly, it had a purpose. I mean to have Viggo standing on the ramparts, drawing a sword, facing the Uriks[sic], and then you cut into the huddled women and children in the cave, and then back to Viggo, you felt, Wow, this guy is defending his people."

Peter Jackson on the Battle of Helm's Deep, "Editorial: Refining the Story" [12:27], Special Extended DVD Edition, disc 4, The Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.

The point is, even though you have something awesome happening, you always have to go back to the human scale so people can relate to it. Otherwise it would have little meaning.

You better quote this. Because it's basically your answer to one way to make a scene meaningful, with repercussions. And a scene really is never epic if it doesn't have repercussions. That's why, to me, 300, for example, was never epic. It was FUN, and AWESOME, but not epic in that same "My heart is caught, I'm not breathing" way, because you never really got a feeling for the repercussions, what the battle MEANT.

The use of light, I think you might find, will have a lot to do with it, but that's just a gut feeling I get, so yeah.

[Icewalker]

Perfect example of the kind of thing I'm looking for. That is excellent.

Much of the idea there is in support of a moral heroism. Bringing the moment back to a flash of really human understanding of what the moment is about, why it is important on the personal level, not just on the mass level. In fact, there is an excellent quote, "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic." Bring it back to something people can relate to, rather than saying that so many will die. Perfect. Make it personal.

(As a footnote, a quick spot of research reveals that this quote, usually attributed to Josef Stalin, may be incorrectly so. No real evidence of it coming from him.)

[thubby]

one facet of it has to be scale. epic things are big (note: not all big things are epic).

[Tavar]

I feel a couple scenes from TTGL quallify. In fact, they do a good job of showing, the people that the hero is protecting, building up that impact.

[Admiral Squish]

Not sure how this hasn't been mentioned yet, but there is the semi-famous anime that defines epic, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. (http://www.animedreaming.tv/anime/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann/)

Now, before you discount this as another fanboy raving about awesome, I really think you should watch an episode or two. It has a constant, exponential growth that constantly keeps you enthralled. There are real, compelling characters overcoming credible, dangerous challenges, making real sacrifices and facing the consequences. I can count more that a dozen scenes in the anime that had me on the edge of my seat.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Necro_EX]

I wouldn't necessarily say that all epic things have to be big, though it does definitely help to convey the idea. A good example of something small-scale that could be considered epic would be a scene of finality at the end of a character's life, if you've grown attached to the character and followed them from early on it can have a pretty deep emotional impact, which I believe is what the OP's going for.

Really it depends on the media what devices you can employ to give the feeling of 'damn, that was epic.' The use of light can obviously only be applied in visual media, and audio can only be applied to media that supports audio.

Something that's universal to it, though...is the build up, the gradual climb to the climax. You've definitely got to bring the audience into it, get them emotionally invested in the story in a strong, meaningful way.

A great example of this, for me at least, was Aeris from FF7. Sure, the game has plenty of moments that are just plain awesome and has one of the most drooled over villains of our generation, but that's definitely not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about the raw emotional investment the player can have with Aeris. Some of the characters were completely two-dimensional and even one-dimensional in some cases (Yuffie, specifically. :/), but Aeris was a character you could definitely get attached to, one you could have some pretty damned strong feelings for, some real attachment. I won't spoil the game for ya, on the off-chance you haven't played it and have avoided discussion of it like the plague, but it's definitely worth it just for her, in my opinion.

Also, the reason why you can get such a strong attachment to her is because one of the game's writers (I don't remember which...I believe whoever it was that wrote up the game's story originally) wrote the story after experiencing some personal emotional trauma, and that translated rather well into the game. The script for FFVII is a real work of art, inspired by it's writer's personal pain. I believe this is something that can really aid in creating something meaningful, when it's meaningful to the author on a personal level, it will be meaningful to the audience.

EDIT: In complete contrast to my original statement, TTGL definitely qualifies, especially at the end of the series.

Speaking of contrast, that's a tool that definitely helps convey it in visual media. Take a huge well orchestrated battle scene. Now remove all the audio.
See how that can be rattling?
In the same sense, thematic lighting can also be very useful.

[AlterForm]

In a more definite sense, I think TTGL's epicness comes from two things: primality, and the underdog mentality.

By primality, I mean there's a lot shouting. And posturing. And fire. And hitting stuff with other stuff. It appeals to the fight or flight index, and the characters naturally choose FIGHT every time. The base primality of the situation, combined with the fight reflex, triggers increased bloodflow or endorphines or adrenaline or what-have-you (you get excited, basically), which elicits a response of "EPIC!" from the audience. Screams, fire, physicality: these all appeal to a lower-level state of mind that we don't get to draw on very often, which heightens the experience level.

The underdog mentality is more straightforward. It's generally not very exciting to watch Goliath curbstomp David (although examples where such did work as an example of EPIC would be neat). Every time the Gurren Brigade tackles an Ultimate Foe, their odds are slim-to-none (although even the latter doesn't stop them). The audience realizes how much trouble the protagonist is in, and gets drawn in waiting to see if they can come out on top. They start empathizing with the protagonist, and if the protagonist is excited, this forms a sort-of positive feedback loop: the audience is empathizing, the protagonist feeds their enthusiasm back along this empathy line, and the audience empathizes more due to their heightened emotional state.

[EDIT]: Necro EX makes a good point about the emotional attachment and climax, as well.

Look for pieces that make you cry Manly Tears (name not intended as any sort of gender commentary) when someone/something is gone -- not just tears or joy or sorrow, but tears because of something that struck at your very core. If you find yourself crying for no particularly identifiable reason, they're probably Manly Tears.

The climax dynamic, I think, is something that could easily be overlooked. Not only do you have to build up to something, and then execute it, but you also have to let the audience back down. Leaving an "epic" scene unresolved makes the whole experience feel somewhat pointless; this could certainly be an interesting emotion to investigate in a piece, but certainly not one that's supposed to be EPIC. Giving the audience a chance to "cool off" from the thrill allows them, I think, a chance to contrast what they're feeling now to what they were feeling then, at which point the lens of hindsight often magnifies the experience further. To return to TTGL (it's the most epic work I can think of at the moment), (SERIES SPOILERS)we get this climax resolution during Kamina's funeral (where just moments before he went out in a blaze of glory), when Nia/Simon look to the future after Lordgenome falls (where just before the fate of the human race was on the line), and at the very end of the series when Simon tells a little boy that he's nobody (when, for the previous 27 episodes, he had been the hotblooded main character). (END SPOILERS) All of these scenes have a rather melancholy tone, but this just makes it easier/better to remember the preceding EPIC moments in tandem.

[AsteriskAmp]

Another fact that contributes to TTGL is the scaling of the events and moments. The events scale pretty consistently, so at the beginning you have them fighting a small robot in a small village, then it two big robots, and successively to ridiculous heights, in fact, the ending is what you would expect with the escalation of situations and the scale of the fight itself.

Also remember that the internal conflict goes hand on hand with the scaling of the fights. What is at first a simple tug to freedom get progressively deeper and actually becomes a philosophical questioning on the second half of the series. On the other hand, the romantic plots also scale as do their results.

Finally, one of the main aspects of TTGL is that the series itself works around the concept of epic, from it's soundtrack to the dialogues and the build-ups as well as the stylistic choices, all are geared toward making the series get you to scream EPIC! at the screen.
If you watch it, avoid episode 4 by the way, it's the only exception to everything said above of this anime.

[AlterForm]

So, uh, in case you hadn't figured it out already Icewalker, you could probably build an entire case study around TTGL. :smalltongue:

Lemme see if I can think of other EPIC moments...

Anakin v Obi Wan on Mustafar(sp?) (The Trench from Ep4 doesn't feel epic to me in recollection, oddly enough)
"Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya" (Very weak epic, but probably usable somehow)
JAM Project infuses every song they do with pure epicsauce. Special mention to Omoide wa Okkusenman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls7oOxUBbYQ)

Hmmm, nothing else comes to mind immediately. If you feel brave enough, Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool) and Beyond the Impossible (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeyondTheImpossible) might be able to get you some more material, although there are a lot of works listed and much of it's YMMV.

[EDIT]: It occurs to me that a lot of scenes/shows/songs I would consider "epic" to me are Japanese, although I can't say I've had much other cross-cultural exposure. Investigating whether its something with the Japanese culture/media output, or due to simple foreign exoticism might be worth checking out.

[AsteriskAmp]

Also, be reminded of the TTGL spin off, Double K, it utterly insane and very Epic indeed.

Something yet to be mentioned is Mahou Sensei Negima, it has strong moments of epic, and specially later on goes to ridiculous moments of epicness, in this last arc.

Also, epicness can come not only from violence, but because the setup itself lends to a general feeling of excitement.
For example
Exhibit A (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/mahou_sensei_negima/v24/c222/13.html) from Mahou Sensei Negima.
Exhibit B (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16184727) from Scribblenauts.

[Coidzor]

Neil Gaiman (http://www.neilgaiman.com/p/Cool_Stuff/Short_Stories)might be worth reading. Or maybe I just have "A Study In Emerald" stuck in my head now.

[Admiral Squish]

Also, be reminded of the TTGL spin off, Double K, it utterly insane and very Epic indeed.

Whatwhatwhaaaaat? There's a TTGL spinoff? How did I not know this? I MUST CONSUME IT. Tell me where I can find this thing? Is Double K the proper title or an abbreviation? Is it anywhere near as good?

[AsteriskAmp]

Whatwhatwhaaaaat? There's a TTGL spinoff? How did I not know this? I MUST CONSUME IT. Tell me where I can find this thing? Is Double K the proper title or an abbreviation? Is it anywhere near as good?

Unofficial but still pretty darn epic.
Findable here: http://captainosaka.deviantart.com/art/DOUBLE-K-001-82688715

[Icewalker]

Double K is a fancomic spinoff, and it is excellent.

Yeah, TTGL really is an incredible example. I have not only watched it, I have half finished (I really should go back to it) a Folkloristic analysis of the show using the Proppian functions. Because they fit it perfectly, it's hilarious.

One of the things about Gurren Lagann. It's was noted that it builds gradually and very well. I think there's one other important element in how it builds though: it reaches a point far surpassing anything you would ever expect going in. Through the first half and to the finale of the first half, it's very impressive in scope, and has no end of epic moments. Then they reach an epic final climax. And then there is a part two, and it just gets bigger. But it's done well, it still builds, I think largely because there is a continuation of varied and interesting plot and character development to go along with the simply ever-increasing scale. (Especially with Viral and Rossiu. Man that's a good show.) A gradual increase in scale and intensity is vital, and works best when it surpasses all expectations in scope.

I think you really hit spot on with the visceral nature of Gurren Lagann as well. It really cuts into base instinct, in a way that makes one feel excited for the action and the fighting quite a lot. It has its own way with it though: that underdog style wouldn't work anywhere, it would start feeling silly, or not believable, but the way TTGL runs with it makes it really work, cutting from silly to incredibly epic (and seriously well written too). It's important to bring things back to human nature, to catch people by their instincts. I think this can work as well for fight/flight as it can for things like fear instincts in horror stories.

Neil Gaiman, interesting choice. He's definitely one of my favorite authors, but I'm not sure I've seen this as much around his work. The philosophy tends to strike me most powerfully, although there I'm really thinking of Sandman.

In terms of what this is for? For one I consider it a resource for anybody reading, whatever they may be working on, and for anything I may work on in the future. Not to mention simply an interesting study! Specifically? I am beginning work on a quite long running Vernian pulp comic as the centerpiece of a pulp fiction magazine (you should all totally write for us! We are definitely taking submissions. PM me, I'll tell you about it, we don't have our website up yet). Myself and the other author really want to be able to invoke these feelings in the finales of the series, as it has a lot of potential for this. Secondly, after discovering Two Steps from Hell, I decided I wanted to try to create a dnd campaign with the sole goal of making it as EPIC as possible, to instill these feelings in the players to an enormous degree. TSfH being the soundtrack to this campaign, of course.

[Obrysii]

It's generally not very exciting to watch Goliath curbstomp David (although examples where such did work as an example of EPIC would be neat).

It might be a groan-worthy example, but the battle of Frieza vs. Super Saiyan Goku could be defined as an epic "Goliath curbstomping David" thing - since it essentially is a flipping of roles.

But the problem comes from the fact there's no tension. There's no consequences for death and the good guy always wins - so the lack of dramatic tensions does, admittedly, hurt my example.

The entire Battle of Endor, in Return of the Jedi, is perhaps my best example of "epic" - there's dramatic tension, there's plots being tied together, and the scale is unheard of in that setting.



One of the things about Gurren Lagann. It's was noted that it builds gradually and very well. I think there's one other important element in how it builds though: it reaches a point far surpassing anything you would ever expect going in. Through the first half and to the finale of the first half, it's very impressive in scope, and has no end of epic moments. Then they reach an epic final climax. And then there is a part two, and it just gets bigger. But it's done well, it still builds, I think largely because there is a continuation of varied and interesting plot and character development to go along with the simply ever-increasing scale. (Especially with Viral and Rossiu. Man that's a good show.) A gradual increase in scale and intensity is vital, and works best when it surpasses all expectations in scope.

Two things from Wikipedia's entry that really sums up what you're saying:


Simon's spiral drill is used as a motif to symbolize the spiral theme throughout the series. At the same time, the drill motif symbolizes the soul and determination to overcome all obstacles as something which gradually advances "with every revolution".


In the same way a logarithmic spiral grows in size with each successive curve, the scope of Gurren Lagann's story and the scale of its mecha grow in successive steps as the series progresses.

[Icewalker]

Yeah, there's another thing which hasn't been mentioned, which TTGL does very very well. It's more of a general boon to media, but as it helps everything, it definitely helps epic. And that is arc words, and similar effects. They can be used to make a moment incredibly striking: to help in comparison back to an older moment, while bringing more attention to what is at hand. And by stressing one scene, you can help bring up the feel of the epic moment it is raising. Gurren Lagann does arc words extremely well.

[grimbold]

i think that epic music can be characterized by a contrast between slow and fast
as seen in the song and in many iron maiden songs
epic music is about the contrast between light and dark
otherwise
its just magic

[CarpeGuitarrem]

On my RPG blog, I tossed around a little bit of this.

Part I (http://playerside.blogspot.com/2010/01/examination-of-epic-part-i.html)
Part II (http://playerside.blogspot.com/2010/01/examination-of-epic-part-ii.html)

And I link to a great example of an epic clip there, too. To me, epicness is epic because of the grand statement it makes. Something epic is only that because it stands in for something bigger. The physical stands in for something that means far more, whether that be loyalty to your God, country, friendships, ideals, etc.

So on that level, Burning Wheel (http://www.burningwheel.org/) is a great example of an RPG system that is supposed to produce epic, now that I think of it.