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big teej
2011-02-05, 06:58 PM
-prepares to take major flak-


greetings playgrounders!

I have a knight who's personality* may end up gettig him killed, because of this, I am working on several backup characters.

I've settled on one of 4ish characters I wish to play
1) a human bard, support - don't feel like being a support character
2) a dwarf wizard - don't feel like dealing with the paperwork
3) human sorcerer - ULTIMATE WORLDBLASTING POWER!!!! but squishy
4) Human Monk - it'd be an interesting playchoice for me

*he chased after his personal nemesis with 13 hit points, thankfully couldn't catch him**


but I digress
I've never really played a monk, so I'm curious what your experience with playing a monk has been?

has it sucked as bad as it comes off on these forums?
not so bad?
what?

**bastard killed my horse


tl;dr tell me any and all stories about your experiences in playing a monk

AslanCross
2011-02-05, 07:07 PM
Never played one, but in my first campaign we had a Monk who did pretty well. Considering it was an all-noob game (I was a noob too) He did have really good stats, though, so that might have been why. The game fell apart rather quickly, though.

Greenish
2011-02-05, 07:11 PM
1) a human bard, support - don't feel like being a support characterThen don't be support, but go out and kick everyone's asses! Bards have the potential to be great frontliners, along with being generally brilliant. (Though maybe I'm biased.)

big teej
2011-02-05, 07:26 PM
Then don't be support, but go out and kick everyone's asses! Bards have the potential to be great frontliners, along with being generally brilliant. (Though maybe I'm biased.)

heh, I knew I forgot something important in my OP

party composition

Half Orc Barbarian
Dwarf Fighter
Halfling Fighter
Human Knight <= me
pathfinder alchemist - may be retconned into another character for balance
Halfling Rogue
useless cleric


so I can't won't bring in another beat stick, I do a better job at making those characters, and don't wanna step on anybodys toes

so my favorite role (big beefy guy that smacks people) is out

I have several rogue's rolled up
we have one already

I don't want to purposefully make the cleric player look useless by bringing in a combat cleric

leaving
d4 casters
support bard
and the monk

and to be honest, I'm kinda likeing the monk idea, just so I can finally play one and get a feel for how much I like/dislike the class

I played a monk in the past in a ridiculously high-powered game and it was a blast, highlights were taking a guy's warhammer and chucking it offa mountian, and judo-throwing several baddies

but I digress

dark.sun.druid
2011-02-05, 07:26 PM
I'm very interested in this too, as I am strongly considering building a monk as my next character. It seems like, if played well and with enough AC and SR, a monk could be a pretty powerful character.

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 07:31 PM
Then don't be support, but go out and kick everyone's asses! Bards have the potential to be great frontliners, along with being generally brilliant. (Though maybe I'm biased.)

I 100% agree. Bards can support and kill at the same time. Easiest way is to be a warblade or crusader multiclass with bard and pick up the song of the raven feat. This allows you to start inspire courage as a swift action allowing you to buff and deal lots of damage (heck if people do not respect you just give yourself the buffs and watch them get jealous).

Now monks are not that great unless you really tweak them out or fix some of their issues. For one their mechanic for eking out more attacks requires full attacks and yet their class is built to be more of a skirmisher type that runs around hits somebody and runs away. This causes problems. Further you are best served getting size bonuses to your unarmed strikes and you need to find out the best ways to get enchantments for your unarmed strike (I like battlefists). The biggest problem is the flurry and enchanting the unrarmed strike, deal with those two and the monk does a lot better.

My personal fix for flurry involves making it work like the snap kick feat in TOB. When you make an attack on your turn (whether it be an attack action, full attack action, or a maneuver) you can choose to take a -2 penalty on all attacks this round and make an extra attack. At level 5 the penalty goes down to -1 and at level 9 it goes away. At level 11 you can make two extra attacks. This allows you to play an effective skirmisher and makes spring attack an actually good feat for you, whereas before it was a trap.

For enchantments see if you can get a necklace of natural attacks (savage species), battlefists (eberron campaign setting though you will need the heavy arms graft from faiths of eberron to use it without being a warforged), brass knuckles from PF, or ask your DM to homebrew a solution such as ki straps or the like.

Greenish
2011-02-05, 07:34 PM
It seems like, if played well and with enough AC and SR, a monk could be a pretty powerful character.True enough in many parties, given that power is relative. Monk isn't very conductive for gaining high AC, though.

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 07:40 PM
True enough in many parties, given that power is relative. Monk isn't very conductive for gaining high AC, though.

I don't know, you can get a lot of bonuses on monk AC that you cannot get from armor. However doing so might not be worth it in the end.

BenInHB
2011-02-05, 08:00 PM
Straight Monk = Not so good

Monk + Other Stuff = Lots of fun

I played a Monk lvls 1-6 and then went Fist of Zuoken (Psionic Fist in SRD) for levels 7 and 8

The first 5 levels were alright, i had fun but everyone in the party was better than me at pretty much everything except running and grappling. It became my job to chase down anyone fleeing that we needed to interrogate or just didn't want warning his buddies. Stunning Fist wasn't all i thought it would be, my advice is use them up early, don't worry about saving them.

At level 6 things got a lot more fun, I got Improved Trip and Wild Talent (2pp and use of Expansion) Midway through the level I started using a Deep Crystal Guisarme I took from a defeated Psywarrior and just ate the -4 for non proficiency, i was using it to trip anyway and all that takes is a touch attack. After tripping on Attacks of Op i would 5ft step and flurry unarmed strikes while they were prone. This worked pretty well since i could be pretty much anywhere i wanted on the battlefield between my high movement and high tumble score.

One i started the Psionic Fist levels and started grabbing powers i quickly caught up to the rest of the parties power level. Actually i wish i would have gone Monk2/PsychicWarrior6 instead to start getting powers sooner.

Stat wise I went WIS, DEX, CON, STR, INT, CHA
if i could change them i would go STR, WIS, CON, DEX, INT, CHA
STR is so important for actually hitting in melee as well as tripping and grappling.

If you tend to be one of the more powerful players in your group and want to give the other players a chance to shine while you are great at really random stuff monk is good for that.

I had a lot of fun playing one.

Volos
2011-02-05, 08:00 PM
I am not allowed to play monks anymore because my knowledge of the 3.5 combat rules is such that I cannot be defeated by even an overwhelming challenge by the time I hit 6th level. Before that I still have some use for my fellow party members. I think my combo for my Monk used to be something along the lines of trip weapon + improved trip + extra attacks + stunning fist... the DM got so fed up with the effectiveness of my Monk that he sent a Dwarf Centaur after us with Earth Heritage along with a ton of other feats. (Basically a +20 to his check before taking his Str into account) I still knocked him flat and was able to knock him out without much trouble.

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 08:19 PM
Another good "monk" build is to use the tashalatora feat from eberron (secrets of sarlona) which allows you to combine your favorite psionic class with your monk abilities. Helps monks a lot and is very flavourful and fun.

stainboy
2011-02-05, 08:24 PM
In a party this melee-heavy, monk would be a good way to give yourself a unique niche. Try to get the Pathfinder monk, it's way better. Most of the disdain for monks on this board is about the 3.5 monk's medium BAB.

That said, 3.5 monks have usually been the best performing non-casters in my games, but the way I build encounters just rewards mobile grapplers with good saves.

Greenish
2011-02-05, 08:27 PM
Most of the disdain for monks on this board is about the 3.5 monk's medium BAB.Most of the distain comes from monk's unsynergetic jumble of class features that look cool but don't really do damn.

Jallorn
2011-02-05, 08:32 PM
I haven't played a monk, but I do have two things to add:

1. Since monks are kinda supposed to be crazy uber-men, your DM is likely going to permit crazier stunts with the monk. I don't mean he'll make it easier, but anything that a normal person wouldn't consider, he might permit you to try. Monk+creativity adds a degree of power usually that most ignore.

2. You can probably get enchanted clothes that give you a nice armor bonus and is (I believe) cheaper than Bracers of armor. Also allows the other armor enchantments. This is, however, subject to your DM's approval, but it does offset a lot of the monk's low AC squishiness.

nedz
2011-02-05, 08:36 PM
You seem to have a fairly low op party so a monk should be fine.
If you max out your stealth skills you should be able to scout with the rogue.
Standard trick here is to use your speed to stealth up to the enemy casters and then close (idealy within 10'); but will your parties beat sticks give you the time to get into position ?

The problem is optimising them to do damage.
They are very MAD so Str normally gets dumped !
You have to optimise hard to get damage comparible to a low op beat stick

High AC is possible, but again you have to work at it.

You have manouvrability, you should play on this.

The monk in the game I run seems to do very well, but then the party is very scouty.

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 08:37 PM
In a party this melee-heavy, monk would be a good way to give yourself a unique niche. Try to get the Pathfinder monk, it's way better. Most of the disdain for monks on this board is about the 3.5 monk's medium BAB.

That said, 3.5 monks have usually been the best performing non-casters in my games, but the way I build encounters just rewards mobile grapplers with good saves.

Unfortunately it does not solve the biggest problem of being terrible on a move and attack which is what most of their class features are built towards (and then there is flurry which makes you want to stand and fight). If a monk can get enchantments for their unarmed attacks then they are no less accurate than rogues and the like and those are usually considered decent.

Also bracers of armor are the same price as armor enchantments and they can be enchanted with armor enchantments (that rule is in the arms and equipment guide). Combine that with one of the many robes with armor bonuses you can get some nice AC and get armor enchantments.

Runestar
2011-02-05, 08:43 PM
Don't bother with monk, he gets completely outclassed by a single spell - summon nature's ally.

Doodleface
2011-02-05, 09:21 PM
I had a great time playing a monk in a mostly unoptimized party.

We had:

Paladin
Rogue
Cleric
Sorcerer (of the blasty-blast variety)
Monk (Me)

My druid died at level 7, so I rolled up a monk. (Don't judge, it was all of our first characters, and first time D&Ding)

I was a Dwarf, 32 point buy. Most point's actually in Dex.
I had a blast though most of the time. We had a very good DM, a family friend of one of the players who had been DMing longer than any of us had been alive. That was most likely a huge factor in the fun I had, but I still had fun. And that's really what matters isn't it?

Lateral
2011-02-05, 09:26 PM
Another good "monk" build is to use the tashalatora feat from eberron (secrets of sarlona) which allows you to combine your favorite psionic class with your monk abilities. Helps monks a lot and is very flavourful and fun.

Support. The flavor of the Psychic Warrior is quite similar to the flavor of the Monk's ki if you think about it, and the two synergize incredibly well. Psychic Warrior will give you massive buffs, and Monk will give you Unarmed Strike power and a few goodies. A simple build would be just Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior 18.

That said, monks can be just fine in low-op parties. Be clever with your abilities and you'll do fine.

Greenish
2011-02-05, 09:29 PM
The problem is optimising them to do damage.
They are very MAD so Str normally gets dumped !Under no circumstances do this. Wisdom only determines the save DCs of Stunning Fist (if you take it) and AC, but Dexterity has more benefits and also boosts armour. Strength is the prime stat for boosting damage and grapple.

Don't bother with monk, he gets completely outclassed by a single spell - summon nature's ally.There are nine spells to that name, to nitpick. :smalltongue:

LOTRfan
2011-02-05, 09:30 PM
There's a few feats in a Githzerai-oriented Dragon article, and you don't have to be Githzerai to take them. One allows you to hit a spellcaster so hard, they can't cast spells for I-don't-remember-how-many rounds.

big teej
2011-02-05, 09:33 PM
could you guys please stop finding things I forgot to put in the OP :smallsmile:

we don't use psionics, none of us have read the rules enough to be comfortable with it.

that said

I like the suggestions I'm hearing.

and I'm encouraged by the fact that many of you seem to have had fun playing a monk.

tactics should be fairly negotiable, we tend to let the rogue sneak up ahead (when possible/conducive to terrain)

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 09:35 PM
Strength is a good ability score to have but you get more damage by bringing in size enhacnements. Two can be done by feats alone (imp nat attack and shape soulmeld+open greater chakra) which improve your medium size monks damage to 6d6. If you can get battlefists (which requires the heavy arms graft) can get to 8d6 and if you are a kalashtar there is a dragon shard that will improve it to 12d6 damage.

Greenish
2011-02-05, 09:45 PM
If you can get battlefists (which requires the heavy arms graft)Heavy Arms Graft (Faiths of Eberron) or being warforged (ECS/MMIII), which is probably the best 0 LA race for a monk anyhow. The standard composite plating doesn't count as armour for monk abilities, but can be enchanted as such. The Battlefist (ECS) gives a virtual size increase for monk's unarmed damage and allows for easy enchanting (and special materials) for your weapon.

So, in one stroke, warforged has addressed two of the weaknesses of the monk.


The redundant immunities of a warforged monk can be traded for handy abilities with the AFCs in City of Stormreach (page 121).

Hawk7915
2011-02-05, 09:46 PM
What level are you guys playing at? I have yet to play a Monk, but I've seen some played in campaigns. Those campaigns didn't get past level 6, but the monk did very well (even as the primary front-liner) in many of those campaigns. The option of attacking twice while everyone else swings once (with way less feat investment than a TWF) is handy, and the monk's great saves and Evasion are awesome. I have a sneaking suspicion that as other classes get more feats, better BAB, etc the Monk really starts to find himself outclassed even in the lowest optimization environments. A monk and a fighter at 3rd level only have a 1-pt attack difference. A monk and a fighter at 9th level have at least a 3-pt attack difference, plus the fighter has way more feats to spend on ways to improve his accuracy or damage. And the fighter isn't even very good.

So if your party is still under level 6, I'd recommend Monk. I'd also recommend you make Strength your best stat to make sure the attack/damage gap isn't too wide with the other frontliners. The monks I've seen that rocked had a 17 or better Strength; the ones who failed tried for that whole "High Dex/Wis super AC" build which made them tricky to hit but fragile and worthless in a fight. In combat, either scout ahead for casters or rogue-types to assassinate, or volunteer to mop up mooks while the big guys fight the ogres and dragons.

If your party is at level 6 or higher, I think I'd have to recommend the blaster-sorcerer. It'd be the most beneficial thing for the party, giving them arcane support, ranged support, crowd control, elemental damage, and potentially buffs.

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 09:49 PM
I think we are trying to think long term. Indeed most melee classes are good 6th level and before. It is the levels after that we are worrying about.

Lateral
2011-02-05, 09:52 PM
Yeah, monk can be pretty decent until level 6. After that, I suggest PrCing out. Taking a couple levels of a divine class and then taking Sacred Fist 10 (Complete Divine) is loads of fun, and you won't overshadow the cleric because you're not a full caster. Like the Tash Monk, the divine class is there for buffs.

Dimers
2011-02-05, 09:56 PM
tactics should be fairly negotiable, we tend to let the rogue sneak up ahead (when possible/conducive to terrain)

The party rogue will love your stunning fist. See if you can get your DM to let you have this feat from the MM:


ABILITY FOCUS (GENERAL)
Choose one of the creature’s special attacks.
Prerequisite: Special attack.
Benefit: Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses.

My experience playing a monk: had fun, but was clearly not as effective in play (and I was probably the best optimizer in that group).

Hawk7915
2011-02-05, 09:57 PM
I think we are trying to think long term. Indeed most melee classes are good 6th level and before. It is the levels after that we are worrying about.

Yeah, although I don't think we need to go totally overboard either. This is a party with two straight-class fighters, were Pathfinder Alchemist might get banned for being OP :smallamused:. Something tells me a character swinging 12d6 fists of death will not be appreciated in this party.

A silly build if you want to do something besides smack things with your fists would be to be a Raptoran or Dragonborn Monk. Take Fiery Fist, Hover, and Flyby Attack so you can eventually take Ki Blast and pummel people for 3d6+wis force damage. You're like a crappy warlock who knows Kung Fu! :smalltongue:

mabriss lethe
2011-02-05, 10:00 PM
Is Tome of Battle allowed?

If so there, there's hope for a monk character.

1-the most often repeated statement on monk threads and I hate to say it, but will anyway, just so no one else has to bother: Play a swordsage (preferrably the Unarmed SS adaptation) They manage to maintain the monk-esque mystique while being a solid contributor to nearly any party.

2- Should you opt to take monk anyway, a monk gets a really good boost from feats like snap kick and martial study/martial stance, since it gives them better options in combat.

Everyone else has already done a good job of covering the highs and lows of the Monk. In short: They're decent survivors in D&D, but the game does not reward survivors.

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 10:03 PM
Yeah, although I don't think we need to go totally overboard either. This is a party with two straight-class fighters, were Pathfinder Alchemist might get banned for being OP :smallamused:. Something tells me a character swinging 12d6 fists of death will not be appreciated in this party.

A silly build if you want to do something besides smack things with your fists would be to be a Raptoran or Dragonborn Monk. Take Fiery Fist, Hover, and Flyby Attack so you can eventually take Ki Blast and pummel people for 3d6+wis force damage. You're like a crappy warlock who knows Kung Fu! :smalltongue:

True it might be a bit overbored. Of course nobody needs to use that many size increases. You could just stick with two or so. The size increases really help and make you about as damaging as a well made rogue with less limitations.

Eldariel
2011-02-06, 02:03 AM
We had a Monk in a level 1-starting game where I was playing a Pally and we had a third Rogue up in the deal. This lead to me realizing that Monk really just needs 3 18s and a 14 to do anything.

Honestly, you do 1d6+Str on level 1 and with flurry, you can't even hit a damn thing; 18 Str gives you +2 to hit, far cry from being 50% hit chance even against generic MM Kobolds. Yes, that's bad. Then your Stunning Fist is once per day; whopdedoo. Oh, and your AC with 18 Wis and Dex is as good as the guy with a breastplate. And you'll still be lower once anybody can afford a full plate. And that's with 18s. Yes, 3 18s means you're about "on par" with a Fighter except about 3 points behind on To Hit vs. a guy with 1 18 and 2 14s.


Numerically, Monk is fairly terrible. Greatsword does 2d6+1.5*Str damage; about as much as Monk does if both his flurries hit, which happens once in a blue moon. And it didn't really get better since after level 6, Monks stop gaining ****.

Sure, your damage die increases so your hits actually hurt a bit but the guy with the Sword is now gaining far, far more from any extra attacks since his individual attack damage is so much higher and while Stunning Fist uses become more abundant, the percentage of opponents vulnerable to it and with non-superb Fort-saves decreases constantly. Oh, and you still have medium BAB.

Oh, and your speed bonus is mostly lost to the fact that you can't do a **** if you move, and it's enhancement bonus thus not stacking with any of the magic that does the same.


We tried killing Goblins on level 1. Mostly that meant "Paladin kills Goblins while Monk does amazing "spring attacking" to miss or hit for not-enough-to-kill-a-Gob once a round and not being near them so he doesn't even help take the damage". Sure, the Rogue did ok there but with only one guy flanking for her, it was kind of difficult for her to get Sneak Attacks in.

We also fought some Zombies which lead to me...well, yeah. Basically, it was team "Paladin and Rogue and a random donk who thought it's a good idea to spend your time learning to use fists as well as weapons instead of just using weapons". Later on things got worse.

MeeposFire
2011-02-06, 02:06 AM
Well their accuracy eventually gets better than the rogue but it is true the class at first looks like a skirmisher hit and run class but flurry ruins it.

Eldariel
2011-02-06, 02:16 AM
Well their accuracy eventually gets better than the rogue but it is true the class at first looks like a skirmisher hit and run class but flurry ruins it.

I dunno, Rogues get Dex SAD thanks to Finesse with SA giving them all the damage they need giving them far better stat scaling on to hit. Or that's what happened with us anyways; Monk had to pick between Dex, Wis and Str while Rogue just pumped Dex. Also, yeah, Rogue hurts a lot more. 6d8 on a level 20 Monk with INA and Enlarge is a far cry from 10d6 on each attack.

Though that's of course a tad hard to apply against many opponents, which really hurts Rogue leaving them as UMD machines in many core fights (then again, that's not a bad place to be at).

MeeposFire
2011-02-06, 02:23 AM
I dunno, Rogues get Dex SAD thanks to Finesse with SA giving them all the damage they need giving them far better stat scaling on to hit. Or that's what happened with us anyways; Monk had to pick between Dex, Wis and Str while Rogue just pumped Dex. Also, yeah, Rogue hurts a lot more. 6d8 on a level 20 Monk with INA and Enlarge is a far cry from 10d6 on each attack.

Though that's of course a tad hard to apply against many opponents, which really hurts Rogue leaving them as UMD machines in many core fights (then again, that's not a bad place to be at).

Well actually can be very similar to a rogue by adding things like shadow blade so you use dex for attack and damage. You can ignore wisdom (just put a 12 or 14 in it and let items boost it from there). And without using any prestige classes I can get a monk to 12d6 damage on every attack and this damage is not situational and not vulnerable to immunities to crits (two feats and two permanent items). The monk will have similar accuracy into this and similar number of attacks though monks will have an advantage with the snap kick feat. Rogues will have UMD and more skills but that is a given. In terms of straight up fighting you can do quite well with a monk, similar to a rogue, but it still fails at everything all melee fails. It is not a number one power house but its damage can be decent.

Lurkmoar
2011-02-06, 02:38 AM
tl;dr tell me any and all stories about your experiences in playing a monk

I died. Oh, you want a longer story.

My party was hired to guard a diplomat that was negotiating trade agreement with a country that had just recently opened its sea ports. During a dark and stormy night(GM's words, not mine). attacked by about 15 or so 'Sea Ghouls' (Lacedon's, but my DM loved puns). Their primary methods of attack were to bite... and then drag the paralyzed victim overboard. I got bitten, and was dragged off.

When the paralysis finally wore off, I punched out the 'Sea Ghoul' and barely made it to the surface to catch my breath. Sadly, the ship was no where in sight and I was isolated... except for the 'Sea Ghouls'. Twenty minutes of frustrating combat later I was dead. This was the first session.

Eldariel
2011-02-06, 02:42 AM
Well actually can be very similar to a rogue by adding things like shadow blade so you use dex for attack and damage. You can ignore wisdom (just put a 12 or 14 in it and let items boost it from there). And without using any prestige classes I can get a monk to 12d6 damage on every attack and this damage is not situational and not vulnerable to immunities to crits (two feats and two permanent items). The monk will have similar accuracy into this and similar number of attacks though monks will have an advantage with the snap kick feat. Rogues will have UMD and more skills but that is a given. In terms of straight up fighting you can do quite well with a monk, similar to a rogue, but it still fails at everything all melee fails. It is not a number one power house but its damage can be decent.

I was going with Core examples there since it's pretty irrelevant to discuss warrior types within the context of full high level 3.X (given commoners can do enough damage to one-shot anything, it's just pointless to discuss the whole matter); I'm fully aware of what can be done in the system. Permanent items though? That's something I wouldn't rely on (due to them actually not existing without DM fiat). They shouldn't be necessary here though. You can get enough damage to one-shot things even as a Monk.

However, if we use the full 3.X, we can apply SA pretty much always, Rogue will be able to HIPS basically always, we're looking at ~12d6+20 SA or so. Rogues can frankly run Snap Kick too if they wish to; it doesn't matter what your base attack damage is as a Rogue, after all. Of course, none of that really matters since the key at that point becomes Rogues' UMD as nothing else they contribute is really that major. HiPS is somewhat notable as they get the Ex-version through Wilderness Rogue, making them decently able to stay invisible from everything without Mindsight, Touchsight or Lifesight (and even those can be addressed) at all times. And of course, they have few relevant skills, but that's a given.


However, this was about play experiences; the Monk in our party accomplished diddly squat over the course of that campaign. Pretty much as you'd expect them to, really; early levels have Monks really poor compared to warrior types.

MeeposFire
2011-02-06, 02:52 AM
well of course spells beat all but my point was you can make monks that do about as well as a rogue in melee though to certain degree you can say "so what". UMD is something monks will not be good at.

Those permanent items were battlefists and ectoplasmic fist shards. Nothing custom made though like technically anything DM has to approve it. Frankly without TOB and Eberron it is not worth playing a monk ever in any game with any sort of challenge.

Gnome Alone
2011-02-06, 03:13 AM
I haven't played a monk, but I do have two things to add:

1. Since monks are kinda supposed to be crazy uber-men, your DM is likely going to permit crazier stunts with the monk. I don't mean he'll make it easier, but anything that a normal person wouldn't consider, he might permit you to try. Monk+creativity adds a degree of power usually that most ignore.

It's true, it's all true - I let a monk knock a hole in a cave wall with his head. He didn't want to walk the fifty feet or so back around that everyone else was doing, so he headbashed a short cut through 5 feet of wall. I figured, sure, why not?

Saint GoH
2011-02-06, 03:18 AM
Much like Eldariel has said... My only experiences with monks have been bad. They aren't skilled enough to keep up with rogues (either in or out of combat), they aren't frontliney enough to keep up with a Fighter, let alone a Barbarian. They provide no group buffing utility, and no real blasting either.

Especially at low levels. They are extremely unreliable except at being a "warm-body"... they excel at that.

MeeposFire
2011-02-06, 03:20 AM
Monks are better used to poach abilities in the long run than to actually stay as a monk. For instance monk unarmed damage and flurry can be very effective on some characters, such as tashalatora builds.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2011-02-06, 03:55 AM
I just last week finished a build for some ridiculous unarmed damage that involved monk. But I doubt that it is what you want and I also doubt that your DM would appreciate Colossal++ and Colossal+++ unarmed damage as a 20th level monk.

But back on topic, with the Flurry of misImean Blows you can only use unarmed attacks. I personally dislike this so I tend to trade it for an AFC (but that is usually because I have more than just UAS). If you are interested in stealth there is an AFC in Exemplars of Evil called Invisible Fist that trades your evasion and Impr. evasion for invisibility for one round and blink for wis(min 1) rounds. Both of these abilities are supernatural and immediate but you have to wait three rounds before you can use them again. Also, take a look at the fighting styles in Unearthed Arcana. The simple changes to your class features can change your whole play style so take what looks interesting, the fun and creativity usually follows.

MeeposFire
2011-02-06, 04:22 AM
You can use weapons outside of unarmed attacks with a flurry. They just have to be special monk weapons. Outside of some strange corner case unarmed strikes are better except for the scorpian kama is ok and this all changes if your DM is cruel and does not give an option of some sort to enchant your unarmed strikes (like a battlefist).

Eldariel
2011-02-06, 05:03 AM
Those permanent items were battlefists and ectoplasmic fist shards. Nothing custom made though like technically anything DM has to approve it. Frankly without TOB and Eberron it is not worth playing a monk ever in any game with any sort of challenge.

Huh, well, that's fair game. Tho Ectoplasmic Fist Shards require a psionic race (or are they Kalasthar-specific?) and Battlefists are Warforged-only; I guess you could go Psiforged but that's about it? Meh. Yeah, the unarmed strike is decent as is Flurry but they alone aren't really worth the levels gaining them takes. Hence the popularity of UA SS, Tashalatora and even Sacred Fist.

MeeposFire
2011-02-06, 05:09 AM
Huh, well, that's fair game. Tho Ectoplasmic Fist Shards require a psionic race (or are they Kalasthar-specific?) and Battlefists are Warforged-only; I guess you could go Psiforged but that's about it? Meh. Yeah, the unarmed strike is decent as is Flurry but they alone aren't really worth the levels gaining them takes. Hence the popularity of UA SS, Tashalatora and even Sacred Fist.

Kalshtar and inspired only actually. Battlefist can be used by picking up a heavy arms graft from faiths of Eberron. As you can see you need a LOT of Eberron material to make even an ok monk. Unarmed swordsage is easier and better in every way (especially since all my tricks for unarmed damage applies to them) though that is why it is a tier 3 class rather than the tier 4 rogue or tier 5 monk. Tashalatora is amazing and sacred fist is good I am sure but I have never bothered to make one so I will leave it at that.

T.G. Oskar
2011-02-06, 06:57 AM
My only experience actually playing a Monk wasn't so bad, though I was kinda cheating, so to speak.

The group was composed of a Undead-specialized Ranger, a Swordsage (not Unarmed, just as-is), two Monks (I was playing one of them), and a Duskblade, playing the module "Escape from Castle Ravenloft" (the 3.5 adapted module). All started at level 7 (aside from me and the Swordsage because of LA), and had suitable WBL.

We Monks were built differently. One (whom took the name "Bruiser Lee") was a Warforged with a Battlefist and specializing in dealing as much damage as possible (Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike which the DM allowed to stack), but otherwise not so optimized (heck, he took Dodge and Mobility, and was planning to take Spring Attack...). The other (mine, whom I named "Cho'kk Borris" just to keep the joke around) was a Githzerai Monk, exchanging the 2nd level feat for Fiery Fist and taking Stunning Fist for 1st level. The "kinda cheating" thing, of course, was the use of Githzerai; between the rolls which were kinda good (they allowed for decent Dex and Wis), the race (LA +2 and everything), using the WBL for Gloves of Dex AND Periapt of Wisdom (for Dex 24 and Wis 22) plus Inertial Armor, a Ghost Shroud AND the monk level-based AC increases, I had enough AC to block just about any attack they did to me, aside from natural 20 attacks; as well, since I was using Weapon Finesse to take advantage of the much better Dexterity, I was going mostly Wis/Dex for 2 out of 3 good saves.

The first few battles were pretty specific: let the other Monk and the Ranger finish the undead, while I soaked damage. When necessary, I deployed a Fiery Fist attack (of which I had only 4, of course) or expended my psionic focus for Psionic Fist, but being zombies they dealt no damage. However, if the other guys were getting in trouble, since I luckily had a Healing Belt I was working as the group's "healer", flanker and overall damage-soaker.

The campaign never progressed to determine exactly HOW good was the Monk (it was about 3 or so sessions), but the few battles I had I was pretty much standing while the others were pretty much beat up. The Swordsage was having way too much fun (in fact, playing CN as a quite amoral person, deliberately harming allies and really acting quite CE) with Death Mark and Burning Blade, but even with his light armor he was quite battered up. Of course, the Ranger being built specifically to slay undead (with Favored Enemy: Undead maxed and a composite longbow of Undead Bane, plus being a Cliffwalk Shifter) meant he, instead of the Swordsage, was the clear winner (though the Swordsage was pretty close) with the Duskblade setting for 3rd place and the other Monk with the improved Battlefist going for 4th.

I was planning to go Psionic Fist/of Zuoken (the DM allowed to ignore the Wild Talent requirement) so I would have survived at least for a while, but even 2 levels behind (the DM didn't allow LA buyoff) I was contributing rather nicely pretty much soaking the damage from the others, even though I only barely hit (probably my only weakness, but one I hoped Psionic Fist PrC would have solved).

I would have really wanted to keep playing, since it was a fun character despite the lack of damage; knowing the place was gonna be riddled with undead, I was planning for a secret weapon (well, not so secret: Stygian Disruption once I hopefully reached the right level to use it with Psionic Fist) and was just ready to enter Psionic Fist so I would have gotten a nice boost. After some while I learned about the deficiencies of the Monk, but I had built the character in a very different way so I never really felt like doing nothing; the bursts of damage were good enough, and I could eat the attacks of opportunity without really getting damaged at all. However, it shaped my mentality about Monks in several ways, such as how to attempt to help them (hence doing 'brew to fix it and inspiring pretty much all the other retoolings), my support to Psionics to aid Monks (and by extension Tashalatora), and why I have a big distaste for replacing monk with unarmed Swordsage (mostly because the way my fellow player dealt with his Swordsage never resembled a Monk rather than a mage-warrior at the very best).

The Glyphstone
2011-02-06, 07:04 AM
I've never played a monk, and the only time I ever had a player use one, it was a heavily houseruled variant - full BAB, swift-action move 1/encounter, and ignoring increasing amounts of DR with melee attacks - though he had a blast doing it.


Personally, if you're not stuck on Monk, with that massively melee-heavy party I would think Bard as a shoo-in. Get Dragon Magic for Dragonfire Inspiration, and watch everyone in your party love you forever until the DM starts making you fight nothing but Fire Elementals and other fireproof enemies. But if you really want monk, you can survive in a low-optimization party such as posted.

Leon
2011-02-06, 08:14 AM
I played a monk once and it was quite good, it was only a one shot game but still a enjoyable character.
I'd Play another but proably as a Monk plus a Caster going into a PrC so i can have the KungFu with what i prefer to play these days - Group Support options

In our current game we have a Halfling Monk who is now lvl 12, she has been a great character from level one - This all with the recent discovery that the PC has been missing 4 feats, she's suffered a minor set back that lost her items and wealth but got 2 levels for it. (Deck of many many bad things and a couple of good ones)

Despite being on a low Damage for Unarmed strikes for quite a while the character has been awesome and is our recon element. The player has been having fun with the class which is good and is happy more so now with the options that a couple of Feats open up (Martial Study, Stance, Pain Touch and Snap Kick with Decisive Strike variant)

Our Group

Dwarf Fighter
Elf Combat Alchemist
HumanGnome Evoker
Human Cloistered Cleric/Barbarian
Halfling Monk
Warforged Swashbuckler/Dervish
Human Bard (just retired not sure what his replacement will be)

Starbuck_II
2011-02-06, 09:49 AM
Here is a 3.0 to 3.5 Monk's experiences:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=37404&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

It is a sad tale of when he was a new player so not that optimized.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-06, 10:16 AM
They're decent at low levels. Two levels of monk is not a bad thing. More than two levels is. So, dip fighter. Then dip barbarian(oh dear, you're going to have to become chaotic. meh, easily done). Then go into whatever you feel like. *cough* ToB *cough*

The key to having fun playing monk is not to do straight monk. That gets poor in a hurry. If you mix it up with other good stuff, you can have a fun monkish char that does solidly in melee. With your group, this would likely work out well, but there are a lot of melee folks. I'd consider a non-melee type of a class the party doesn't yet have. Anything arcane, for instance. Warlock is fun, DFA is solid, Dragonfire Inspiration Bard is also epic.

Leon
2011-02-06, 11:21 AM
They're decent at low levels. Two levels of monk is not a bad thing. More than two levels is.
The key to having fun playing monk is not to do straight monk. That gets poor in a hurry

They are decent at high levels and having all your levels in the class is not as bad as you make out.

The Key to having Fun with a Monk is the same as the Key to having fun with any class - Is the PC doing what you want, how you want it. I used to play a Archivist - i was not having fun with it for a number of reasons so i changed my class to Cloistered Cleric and it became a whole lot more fun.

Gnaeus
2011-02-06, 11:42 AM
party composition

Half Orc Barbarian
Dwarf Fighter
Halfling Fighter
Human Knight <= me
pathfinder alchemist - may be retconned into another character for balance
Halfling Rogue
useless cleric


so I can't won't bring in another beat stick, I do a better job at making those characters, and don't wanna step on anybodys toes

so my favorite role (big beefy guy that smacks people) is out

Well, a monk is essentially a beat stick. They just aren't very good at it. If you make a workable monk, you are back to competing with the melees.

My suggestion in this group (and I can't believe I am suggesting this class twice in a day) is Dragon Shaman. Bard or Sorcerer are both way stronger than the fighters. A Dragon Shaman will provide a lot of support, but you can still go out and smack things if that is your preference, without overshadowing fighters or barbarians. If you REALLY want to be monkish, you could make a monk2/Dragon Shaman x, but straight DS is better.

Ossian
2011-02-06, 11:48 AM
Well, a Monk 6 / Shintao Monk 3 / Paladin 5 with the appropriate feat selection and variants (no spells, no holy mount, decisive strike) did make some pretty nice contributions (he was level 14 at the end).

Scarlet-Devil
2011-02-06, 12:37 PM
This thread seems a bit saturated at this point, but I guess I'll throw in my monk story anyway. I played a human monk in a mostly urban campaign, which involved conflict with mostly humanoids. Also I should point out that this is back when everyone was saying that monks were overpowered, and many DMs actually banned them from their games. We went from 1st-10th level, and I spread my stats around pretty poorly (heavy emphasis on wisdom, strength not so much), but my character was still at least as effective as most of the rest of the party. The fullblade wielding fighter and our elf wizard would destroy things a lot better, but when we needed stealth or acrobatics, or when we were captured, disarmed, and bound with ropes (which happened rather a lot), I was the man of the day.

Starbuck_II
2011-02-06, 01:48 PM
The fullblade wielding fighter and our elf wizard would destroy things a lot better, but when we needed stealth or acrobatics, or when we were captured, disarmed, and bound with ropes (which happened rather a lot), I was the man of the day.

Why were you disarmed/bound with ropes a lot? I can see once or twice but a lot?

Ossian
2011-02-06, 02:03 PM
Why were you disarmed/bound with ropes a lot? I can see once or twice but a lot?

Happens a lot to my PCs too. Maybe not bound with ropes, but fairly often the environment sets many constraints. Their shining Xmas tree deck-out is more often than not a punch in the eye, and if being less than conspicuous is an issue (as it is often the case) you don't want to go around with your scintillating robes, fancy bracers, orbiting pebbles of deflection, flaming swords and the like.

Sometimes they have to negotiate "vertical situations" and still fight a lot. Sometimes there are underwater scenes. Basically, mobility and flexibility are a must. I also nerfed teleport a lot, so if they want to get somewhere, armour is a hassle most of the time.

Plus, if you get into a streetfight (tavern, prison break, street gang etc etc) it is a lot more low-profile to get out of it with your punches, especially if you are not into killing people , but I guess my players are pretty much the only ones in the gaming community that do not think that murder is always ok, especially if "they attacked me first". i tried to nail into their heads a concept called "proportionate retaliation, that is, if they ask for your wallet you cannot just nonchalantly decapitate them, or nuke them..

Lord.Sorasen
2011-02-06, 02:29 PM
Unfortunately it does not solve the biggest problem of being terrible on a move and attack which is what most of their class features are built towards (and then there is flurry which makes you want to stand and fight). If a monk can get enchantments for their unarmed attacks then they are no less accurate than rogues and the like and those are usually considered decent.

Also bracers of armor are the same price as armor enchantments and they can be enchanted with armor enchantments (that rule is in the arms and equipment guide). Combine that with one of the many robes with armor bonuses you can get some nice AC and get armor enchantments.

Could lion tribe warrior help balance this out?

The Glyphstone
2011-02-06, 02:33 PM
Could lion tribe warrior help balance this out?

A one-level dip in Spirit Lion Barbarian does solve the Monk's biggest problem, but opens a new one in that their alignments are incompatible. This is not an issue mechanically if you start as Barbarian, turn lawful and stay Monk, but it sticks in many people's throats as difficult to justify in backstory without looking like a blatant powergamer. Even when playing a Monk.:smallamused:

Scarlet-Devil
2011-02-06, 02:35 PM
Why were you disarmed/bound with ropes a lot? I can see once or twice but a lot?

Heh, the short answer is our DM was an ******* (but I love him). We used to split up a lot for one thing, and we had a strange tendency to get into street fights and be ambushed in allies, etc. We were trying to shut down a thieves' guild that had spread through the whole country,

Lord.Sorasen
2011-02-06, 02:36 PM
A one-level dip in Spirit Lion Barbarian does solve the Monk's biggest problem, but opens a new one in that their alignments are incompatible. This is not an issue mechanically if you start as Barbarian, turn lawful and stay Monk, but it sticks in many people's throats as difficult to justify in backstory without looking like a blatant powergamer. Even when playing a Monk.:smallamused:

I was actually talking about the feat from Shining South (pg 20). It only works with a light weapon, but the unarmed strike is considered such, isn't it? Also it has some setting specific prereqs but I figure it's a little less constricting than the barbarian path.

Knaight
2011-02-06, 02:39 PM
Plus, if you get into a streetfight (tavern, prison break, street gang etc etc) it is a lot more low-profile to get out of it with your punches, especially if you are not into killing people , but I guess my players are pretty much the only ones in the gaming community that do not think that murder is always ok, especially if "they attacked me first". i tried to nail into their heads a concept called "proportionate retaliation, that is, if they ask for your wallet you cannot just nonchalantly decapitate them, or nuke them..

The monk doesn't really have much of an advantage here. If the setting is at all sensible, then the people involved in a bar fight that aren't the PCs are probably all 1st level commoners or 1st level warriors, with even the best having +2 strength. Pretty much anyone can take the lot of them.

BoutsofInsanity
2011-02-06, 02:40 PM
Dragon Shaman does seem like it would fit the party. I actually gamed with Big_Teej as a Dragon shaman, died to a dragon. But the abilities with that kind of party do make lots of sense. Also a ranger focusing on range might be a nice idea but isnt the point.

Check out the monk varients in Martial Power for 3.5, I believe it offers options for monks in the book. A monk can also multiclass a shadow dancer, assassin or a barbarian really well. Take the Monk and run him as a totem Barbarian, focusing on the stuff you want to do, with the dmg reduction, Coth armor (what barbarian wears armor anyway, all bare chested doh) and pull on spinked gauntlets to negate attacks of opportunity. That could be fun.

Again it depends on if your running an optimizing party or not. I never have, so a monk should be fine. Though a dragon shaman would be awesome as hell though.

For the bard, a red dragon deciple could be a ton of fun as well. Giving more combat efficency and dragon pwers which is fun.

Final idea, monk duelist combo, focus on dex, int, wis, than grab a light weapon and see where that goes. This is all speculation, but that could be fun as well.

The Glyphstone
2011-02-06, 02:41 PM
I was actually talking about the feat from Shining South (pg 20). It only works with a light weapon, but the unarmed strike is considered such, isn't it? Also it has some setting specific prereqs but I figure it's a little less constricting than the barbarian path.

Ah. Not familiar with that, so I don't know.

Fitz10019
2011-02-06, 04:53 PM
I played a Dwarf Monk/Druid (PHB2 wildshape variant). My DM kindly allowed me to write a feat that stacked the class levels together for the purposes of wildshape and flurry advancements, and I could flurry with my claws (I still had to keep the class levels within one step). The wildshape provided a handy boost to Strength and to AC; the spellcasting allowed me to provide the additional buffs I needed. It was a lot of fun, and I was really looking forward to being a treant with 50ft of movement eventually, but I was too frail, and I never made it that far.

Eldariel
2011-02-06, 04:56 PM
I was actually talking about the feat from Shining South (pg 20). It only works with a light weapon, but the unarmed strike is considered such, isn't it? Also it has some setting specific prereqs but I figure it's a little less constricting than the barbarian path.

Yeah, it works. Snow Tiger Berserker basically gives you UA pounce. Requires ability to Rage tho. Sphinx Claws Soulmeld too, without pesky requirements.

Greenish
2011-02-07, 08:14 AM
Take the Monk and run him as a totem Barbarian, focusing on the stuff you want to do, with the dmg reduction, Coth armor (what barbarian wears armor anyway, all bare chested doh) and pull on spinked gauntlets to negate attacks of opportunity.Better yet, take a barbarian and run it as a monk. PrC out to Fist of Hobo after level 4, beat the monk at unarmed damage.

faceroll
2011-02-07, 10:23 AM
That said, monks can be just fine in low-op parties. Be clever with your abilities and you'll do fine.

Not in my experience.

I have never played a monk, as the flavor isn't for me at all, but I've been in five games with monks.

The first, we were all noobs, from level 1 to level 9. The monk consistently did terribly. He had a horrible build though, having picked up great cleave (why??) and dirty fighting. He never used his flurry of blows. Also, his itemization was bad, mostly due to the DM.

The second, same player different DM, this time from levels 10 to 13, in a high power (though not necessarily high OP) game. The monk again got trashed by anything remotely close to our CR, again largely due to itemization problems. Even then, his damage was poor compared to that of the fighter and barbarian in the party.

The third, a different player, different DM, had a level 10ish drow monk. Same issues- squishy, high item dependence, low damage output. Things like undead and constructs and outsiders never got stunned, due to immunity or high saves/con score.

The fourth monk, same player and DM as the second, but a different game, did a bit better, as we were very high op. Itemization was still lacking, but the monk could charge pretty crazy like, do good damage, land full attacks. Took a lot of splatbooks, and still was second fiddle to the hobgoblin fighter/psych warrior/warmind. I think level was around 6 to 8.

The fifth monk, from level to ten, started off impossibly weak. Elf, so a bit fragile. This was a different player, but same DM as first game. I convinced the DM to let her gestalt with fighter at about level 4 or 5, so the full BAB and bonus feats have really boosted her damage output. She's got good items, which were more or less DM fiat when we got them, and combined with luminous armor, she has an AC that approaches the low 40s. By far the most optimized and possibly best equipped in the party, she's the second best melee in the party, imo. Being gestalted with fighter really helps her in combat.

General trends:
Low level monks are exceptionally lame. They miss with a lot of their attacks, their AC is low, and getting them equipment is expensive. They also require a much higher level of optimization. A barbarian picks up power attack, cleave, and rages with a greataxe. Pretty straight forward. But a monk needs to look through a lot of splats to get the same sort of benefits.

We played with very high point buy in all games. The monk in game 3 started with 100 points he could distribute however he liked, up to 20 in a single attribute, on a 1-for-1 basis. The bummer is how much the monk needs high stats all over the place.

Monks feel like they should be able to flip out and kung fu all the time, but I've noticed that either the players don't have a proper feel of what is and isn't possible, or skills don't get high enough to do anything cool. Climbing, jumping, tumbling, and balancing don't really accomplish much besides bruises until around levels 6 to 10. By lvl 10 you can regularly perform cool stuff, but with d8 HD and severe MAD, falling damage can be pretty risky before level 6.

Buffs on monks are pretty awesome, as they can actually stack a lot of magic effects before other characters. +wisdom, +dex, +mage armor/luminous armor gets their AC up quite high.

Monks did MUCH better as the level of op increased. There seems to be a threshold from being dead weight to contributing. I think monks are a very hard class to play because of this.

Telonius
2011-02-07, 10:41 AM
Personal experience:

Right after Book of Exalted Deeds came out (i.e. before anybody crunched the numbers on VoP vs. WBL) I made a VoP Monk/Tattooed Monk. At lower levels, it was decent, but after around level 7 or so it started falling far behind. I would rarely hit, had to depend on the party wizard for fighting flying enemies, and basically didn't enjoy the combat parts of the gaming sessions. I ran out of "useful" bonus Exalted feats after about level 10 or so, and the DM very graciously allowed me to take something useful rather than being able to glow in the dark at the cost of a feat.

Stunning Fist was useless, since it never actually connected, or if it did the enemy made the save. (Seriously, in a 20-level campaign's worth of trying, about three enemies were ever Stunned).

There were a few things that Mordechai actually did well. First was tactical movement. I was our Rogue's best friend, being able to Tumble from basically anywhere on the battlefield to being in flanking position with him. I was very hard to hit, and almost never failed a saving throw. The times I felt most useful was when we were fighting medium-sized foes. (For some reason I always seemed to have more luck connecting on a Disarm than on a lethal strike). Strategic Grappling of a foe (more to deny movement than to actually hurt him) was also amusing. If I was able to make it to a spellcaster, Grapple was my first option; lots of spells have somatic components and the DM didn't always remember to have Stilled "get me out of here" spells prepared. (Didn't help that it was a published adventure path - Shackled City - that features some truly stupid choices in spell selection for the enemy casters).

Psyren
2011-02-07, 10:49 AM
I made a VoP Monk/Tattooed Monk. At lower levels, it was decent, but after around level 7 or so it started falling far behind. I would rarely hit, had to depend on the party wizard for fighting flying enemies, and basically didn't enjoy the combat parts of the gaming sessions.

What tattoos did you have? Chameleon should have solved this problem, and/or made you Large to boot. This is especially true if you went with a Neraphim monk so you could turn into Outsiders, Elan/Synad for Aberrations, Warforged for Constructs, Duskling for Fey etc.

Although I agree, VoP quickly runs out of useful bonus feats.

Zuljita
2011-02-07, 11:07 AM
there are quite a few options you haven't considered. Look at warlock or Dragonfire Adept for another blasty even lower paperwork choice. Mix in entangling exhalation and the invocation for overland flight for the DFA and you can play support while doing damage, and not have to try to muscle in to the melee spaces (you can fly above them). Warlock has similar options and since you are relatively low optimization, they wont seem as weak as they will in higher op games.

Beguiler is probably about as low paperwork as the sorc, and makes for a fun support type while still bringing lots of skills to the table.

Telonius
2011-02-07, 11:10 AM
I believe the tattoos ended up as Butterfly, Tiger, Wasp, Dragon, and Phoenix. (DM houseruled Spell Resistance doesn't apply to beneficial spells, and the memories of the usefulness of Haste in 3.0 were still strong). In hindsight, Dragon could have been switched out for Chameleon, but by the time I realized that, it was too late to change.

EDIT: Also, the monk started out as Humanoid, so not much help on size there.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-07, 11:14 AM
They are decent at high levels and having all your levels in the class is not as bad as you make out.

The Key to having Fun with a Monk is the same as the Key to having fun with any class - Is the PC doing what you want, how you want it. I used to play a Archivist - i was not having fun with it for a number of reasons so i changed my class to Cloistered Cleric and it became a whole lot more fun.

Well, straight monk, at high levels, tends not to do what you want, unless what you want is "miss a lot".

Psyren
2011-02-07, 11:25 AM
I believe the tattoos ended up as Butterfly, Tiger, Wasp, Dragon, and Phoenix. (DM houseruled Spell Resistance doesn't apply to beneficial spells, and the memories of the usefulness of Haste in 3.0 were still strong). In hindsight, Dragon could have been switched out for Chameleon, but by the time I realized that, it was too late to change.

That's too bad - Chameleon is pretty much the main reason to take that class. The Alter Self lasts all day fairly quickly and cannot be countered or dispelled.

It wouldn't have helped your size in that case, but the flight problem would easily be solved (e.g. Avariels get 50ft. fly) and you could have put on some other bonuses like NA for regular fights. If you were going to skip Chameleon you shouldn't have bothered with TM at all, sadly.

Curmudgeon
2011-02-07, 11:54 AM
Some tips for playing a useful Monk:

Take the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21) to get invisibility for a full round, every 3 rounds. If you stick with the class to level 9, Invisible Fist will give you Blink then. You'll lose evasion, so finding a Ring of Evasion will be very helpful.
The Kung Fu Genius feat (Dragon Compendium) lets you use INT instead of WIS for normally WIS-based class features. Since there are only two of these (AC Bonus and Quivering Palm), Invisible Fist (which also is based on WIS) makes this feat 50% more worthwhile.
Beg your party members to chip in on a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide). If you've got a character with great Diplomacy skill (such as a Bard with Glibness), use Haggle (see Complete Adventurer, pages 98-99) to get the price reduced to 9/10 normal, and sell it back for 10/9 of the 50% normal used value a month later. The month of training will net you a permanent option to take a 10' step whenever you're allowed a 5' step. This lets you make a full attack then step back 10'. The enemy probably won't be able to make a full counterattack. This is the Monk-specific mobility option that actually works with your flurry of blows. While you'll need to tie up party funds for a month, the total expenditure with resale and maximum Haggle will be only 34.44% of the list price, so you'll be able to manage the actual cost as early as level 6.
The Snap Kick feat (Tome of Battle) gives you an extra unarmed attack whenever you make a melee attack. This works with full attacks, standard action attacks, bonus attacks, and even attacks of opportunity, so it's much better than the full-attack-only flurry of blows.
Strongly encourage your party Sorcerer/Wizard to boost you with the Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) spell. This lasts for hours per casting, and makes your unarmed strike deal damage as if you were several sizes larger ─ without the indoors/undergound/between trees problems of actually being of that size.

Arillius
2011-02-07, 12:28 PM
I have to say I've played 2 monks before, both one shots, both different editions. Had fun with both of them, kicked major butt with both. Neither were easy games. Making my first long term monk now, Zen Archer, and am hoping to have a lot of fun with his abilities during RP. Slow fall is great. I used it to lure a group of enemies to me in a high up tower, where outside a sorcerer friend of mine was waiting with fireball and invis. When they entered the room I jumped out, they laughed, and boom. I escaped an exploding building by sliding down the wall.

As to combat, Zen archer makes up for the skirmishing thing. Flurry of blows can be done with a bow. No need to get in range. But Monk, plain Monk, can be awesome. Flurry of blows with improved grapple, stunning fist, then maybe a series of punches and kicks for kicks.

Greenish
2011-02-07, 12:49 PM
Flurry of blows can be done with a bow. No need to get in range.How'd you make bows special monk weapons?

Psyren
2011-02-07, 01:10 PM
How'd you make bows special monk weapons?

He might mean Pathfinder, the Zen Archer monk can flurry with bows. Beyond that, no idea.

Dimers
2011-02-07, 03:06 PM
Suddenly I'm seeing a guy in a gi hurling a stream of longbows at an ogre, tripping it up on the strings and battering its body with the shafts ... flurry of bows. :smallamused:

Leon
2011-02-07, 04:28 PM
Well, straight monk, at high levels, tends not to do what you want, unless what you want is "miss a lot".

Hasn't been a problem thus far.
Misses will happen to anyone and i don't recall the monk suffering them anymore so than the rest of us (aside maybe from my PC)

randomhero00
2011-02-07, 04:33 PM
I came, I played a monk, I died. The end. Seriously, played through a monk once and was like, nope, no thanks.

MeeposFire
2011-02-07, 04:41 PM
Hasn't been a problem thus far.
Misses will happen to anyone and i don't recall the monk suffering them anymore so than the rest of us (aside maybe from my PC)

They do miss a lot if you DM does not allow for the various ways to get enhancements for your unarmed attacks. Only the amulet of mighty fists is core and it is very expensive and frankly sucks. The only other option in core is the standard gauntlet and you are not proficient with it and even if you were you cannot use it with flurry. Splats give us the necklace of natural attacks and the battlefist but if you can't use them you have to ask for buffs.

This also at times is a reaction to low level flurry which makes you miss due to the attack penalty and forgetting that the penalty disappears as you go. That early slew of misses sticks with you in your mind for a long time. By 11th level your monk should be as accurate or more accurate than a rogue assuming you have access to the enhancement items.

Psyren
2011-02-07, 04:44 PM
Suddenly I'm seeing a guy in a gi hurling a stream of longbows at an ogre, tripping it up on the strings and battering its body with the shafts ... flurry of bows. :smallamused:

Har har. I did say with. :smalltongue:


Splats give us the necklace of natural attacks and the battlefist but if you can't use them you have to ask for buffs.

You forgot partially-charged wands :smallbiggrin:

Psyborg
2011-02-07, 04:46 PM
I played a monk from level 11 to level 15, ending up Monk 11 / Master Thrower 4 who was a sai-machine-gun. Strength-focused with Brutal Throw, and the DM generously allowed the ki focus weapon ability to allow the weapon to use my unarmed strike damage. By the end, I was flurrying five sais a round, or ten as touch attacks if I ditched my Str to damage.

My damage output and accuracy were fairly reasonable, though I blew my entire fricking fortune on +1 ki focus returning sais. My AC sucked, but our DM didn't use physical ranged enemies much, and we had a counterspelling sorceror, so as long as I kept out of melee range I was fine.

Overall, he's one of my more fondly-remembered favorite characters. The high monk move speed wasn't a whole lot of use in and of itself, but the jump check it contributed to was quite entertaining (and useful).

That said? It was a really, really, really low-op party. Monks do suck. But they can still be fun to play if everyone else sucks, too :smalltongue:

MeeposFire
2011-02-07, 04:52 PM
I played a monk from level 11 to level 15, ending up Monk 11 / Master Thrower 4 who was a sai-machine-gun. Strength-focused with Brutal Throw, and the DM generously allowed the ki focus weapon ability to allow the weapon to use my unarmed strike damage. By the end, I was flurrying five sais a round, or ten as touch attacks if I ditched my Str to damage.

My damage output and accuracy were fairly reasonable, though I blew my entire fricking fortune on +1 ki focus returning sais. My AC sucked, but our DM didn't use physical ranged enemies much, and we had a counterspelling sorceror, so as long as I kept out of melee range I was fine.

Overall, he's one of my more fondly-remembered favorite characters. The high monk move speed wasn't a whole lot of use in and of itself, but the jump check it contributed to was quite entertaining (and useful).

That said? It was a really, really, really low-op party. Monks do suck. But they can still be fun to play if everyone else sucks, too :smalltongue:

I bet you wish you could have gone bloodstorm blade huh.

Psyren
2011-02-07, 04:56 PM
Soulbow or Pathfinder Soulknife make great machine guns. Your ammo is still enchanted but you don't need returning, since it's all coming out of your head.

MeeposFire
2011-02-07, 05:02 PM
I once made a nifty soulbow monk that had way more shots per round than you would ever need. Thematically they go well together. And a PF soulknife does not become a good "machine gun" until 14 levels. Even a monk bloodstorm blade build could get humming faster than that.

Psyren
2011-02-07, 05:09 PM
I once made a nifty soulbow monk that had way more shots per round than you would ever need. Thematically they go well together. And a PF soulknife does not become a good "machine gun" until 14 levels. Even a monk bloodstorm blade build could get humming faster than that.

True, but he would be deadly at all ranges by that time, and while dual-wielding as well, with little to no monetary investment.

MeeposFire
2011-02-07, 05:13 PM
True, but he would be deadly at all ranges by that time, and while dual-wielding as well, with little to no monetary investment.

And the bloodstorm blade would be deadly at all ranges all the time at that point and he can use his ranged attacks with twohanded weapons treated as melee attacks (power attack and the like anyone) and it happens earlier.

Psyren
2011-02-07, 05:39 PM
And the bloodstorm blade would be deadly at all ranges all the time at that point and he can use his ranged attacks with twohanded weapons treated as melee attacks (power attack and the like anyone) and it happens earlier.

Is this a competition? Because if it is, I'll be the first to admit that ToB can cream a Soulknife :smalltongue:

But the fact that the comparison is even worth making now is a testament to how far the class has come. (Not to mention that you can now approach the concept without needing ToB or PrCs.)

MeeposFire
2011-02-07, 06:07 PM
Is this a competition? Because if it is, I'll be the first to admit that ToB can cream a Soulknife :smalltongue:

But the fact that the comparison is even worth making now is a testament to how far the class has come. (Not to mention that you can now approach the concept without needing ToB or PrCs.)

Actually it is more of a liking for soulbow plus a disbelief that they took the time to redo the soulknife and still making them wait until 14th level to be competent at range. Seriously is it overpowered for something to be able to throw shortswords at low levels, really?

Psyborg
2011-02-07, 06:20 PM
I bet you wish you could have gone bloodstorm blade huh.

Not really. Would have overpowered the heck out of the party. It's pathetic, I know, but the monk was actually a pretty good fit for the group at the time. :smalleek:

MeeposFire
2011-02-07, 06:21 PM
Not really. Would have overpowered the heck out of the party. It's pathetic, I know, but the monk was actually a pretty good fit for the group at the time. :smalleek:

I was just thinking of using it to save you cash really.

big teej
2011-02-07, 09:10 PM
heh.... don't I feel stupid

as awesome as all the build advice has been.

group resources:

the SRD
BOVD
BOED
A&EG
Dieties and Demigods
races of stone
masters of the wild
DMG I AND II
PHB
that should be everything

everything else is out of bounds


I am very well aware that monks suck
however, I'm pretty much the only one in the party who knows the slightest thing about optimization.

and I wanna play a monk, I think I'll have fun with it.


if nothing else, I can cross 'played a monk in a legit campaign' off the list and move on to the next character in my evergrowing stable (maybe that templated knight I posted so much about a few months back)

anyways, sorry for invalidating over half the posts so far on build advice :smalleek::smallfrown:

Psyren
2011-02-07, 09:46 PM
You said the SRD - are psionics allowed? You can always go Psionic Fist instead of full-on Tashalatora.

You're in for a rough time without Completes imo.

ken-do-nim
2011-02-07, 11:19 PM
My monk experience was much more positive. I rolled awesome stats, and the party wizard was a good friend who buffed me first and often. I actually liked 3.0 better, because the cleric would start the day with ability score buffs for everybody, but when we converted to 3.5 I would move up right next to him when a fight broke out and nag for those same buffs and as his spell power grew he decided he had better things to do. Still, my monk was the top character in the party up until around level 14*. Things evened out in the mid teens, and then my friend who played the wizard moved away. A new player was brought in, I asked him to play a wizard, which he did but he played an arcane trickster and took all ray spells to sneak attack with. My monk was useless from then on out.

We always threatened the DM with polymorphing my monk into a bullette and getting the bullette's spring out flurry attack, but we never went through with it.

* Earlier in this thread you saw a quote that monks are good survivors but the game doesn't reward survivors. In our 1-16 campaign, she was the only character who never died, and as a result was always at least a level ahead of everybody else.

Leon
2011-02-07, 11:31 PM
They do miss a lot if you DM does not allow for the various ways to get enhancements for your unarmed attacks. Splats give us the necklace of natural attacks and the battlefist but if you can't use them you have to ask for buffs.


Well this Monk must be above the average as i cant really recall her missing anymore than the rest of us and as for Buffs you shouldn't have to ask for them, a good group will have someone who can and will buff the rest of the party to the best of what they are able.

In regard to magical items the PC currently has none as the Deck of Many things destroyed them but none of ones she had were boosting her combat ability (aside from a pair of monk weapons that did different damage types)

big teej
2011-02-08, 12:43 AM
You said the SRD - are psionics allowed? You can always go Psionic Fist instead of full-on Tashalatora.

You're in for a rough time without Completes imo.


sadly no... I'm the most rules knowledgeable and I was (I now believe mistakenly) informed that "psionics are mad complicated"

so I didn't ever read that....

and I'm not sure how comfortable I am learning psionics from the SRD :smalltongue:

so as of now, psionics are out

T.G. Oskar
2011-02-08, 01:15 AM
sadly no... I'm the most rules knowledgeable and I was (I now believe mistakenly) informed that "psionics are mad complicated"

so I didn't ever read that....

and I'm not sure how comfortable I am learning psionics from the SRD :smalltongue:

so as of now, psionics are out

Psionics aren't so tough to learn. However, they might be to complete newbies, or those whom have played mostly Core. It's easier if you've played JRPGs, because they use a sort-of similar system.

The gist is this: if you've played a Sorcerer, or at least seen one in play, you get a series of spells which you can do certain times per day. That's basically "Vancian casting", or fire and forget (although in the case of Sorcerers, the "forget" part is "no worries afterwards"). Psionics works similarly, in that you learn psionic powers; however, instead of having limited uses per day, you have a pool of Power Points (PP), which you expend to use the powers. That's the core of it.

What might seem complicated is the ideas of augmentation and psychic focus, but they aren't that complicated either. Augmentation means you spend more points to deal greater effect (you know how Fireball deals 1d6 per caster level? Well, the equivalent in psionics deals a flat 5d6, but for each power point you expend, you deal an extra 1d6 damage). Psychic focus is a tad harder, but the best way to explain it is "a buff (just like having a spell cast on you), but you can expend it to gain another benefit".

Generally, attacking is easier than casting spells, casting spells is only moderately easier than psionics (if you know how to cast spells, psionics will be a bit more intuitive), psionics is easier than ToB maneuvers, maneuvers are easier than Incarnum. Invocations count as spells, binding is as hard as Incarnum to figure out, shadowcasting is between spells and psionics (in term of learning how to use them), and truenaming is a dream you want to forget...actually...

Curmudgeon
2011-02-08, 04:48 AM
group resources:

the SRD
BOVD
BOED
A&EG
Dieties and Demigods
races of stone
masters of the wild
DMG I AND II
PHB
that should be everything
everything else is out of bounds
That does make it tougher. You've still got access to a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide), so getting training time with one of those should be top priority. AaEG also has the rules for adding non-numerical armor enhancements to Bracers of Armor, so you can benefit from enhancements like Shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#shadow), or the pitspawned template from Dungeon Master's Guide II.

If you've got access to the SRD (though with DM limits on psionics), you've also got access to a bunch of free online content from WotC. There's an excellent guide to free D&D here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=fd9dc7e72f94418b718967b338e3a9 ac&topic=1109.0). You could pick up the Spell Reflection ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a), for instance, even though you don't have access to Complete Mage. And you can pick up Planar Monk substitution levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040706a&page=2); energy resistance is going to help you more of the time than immunity to disease. You have access to the Sun Soul Monk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050601a&page=4), Disciple of the Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2), and Thief-Acrobat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=3) prestige classes. The Ascetic Hunter (Ascetic Hunter) feat lets you multiclass between Monk and Ranger. If you want to have extra reach the Willing Deformity and Deformity (Tall) feats from here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=4) will give you +5'. The Champions of Valor Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) has useful stuff, including racial substitution levels for Halfling Monks (if you change your mind about being Human) and a way to pick up darkvision via a Dark Moon Disciple substitution level.

Your difficult job of optimization got a lot harder, so I encourage you (and your DM) to use this free online content to whatever extent it helps.