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stabbitty death
2011-02-05, 07:54 PM
had the first session of a new campaign today
party comp.
genasi warlord(party leader)
eladrin wizard
shifter barb
dragonborn barb
dwarf cleric(absent)
eladrin avenger(me)
half orc monk
so here's how the 1 encounter wentI get stuck in neck deep mud so can't do anything to group a monk 5 storms group a repeatedly, they die. Group b comes in next to me throw daggers bloody me wizard ccs monk comes over and kills them too. so monk killed 95% of enemies, and I earn the title"pincushion the avenger":smallmad:

Reynard
2011-02-05, 07:59 PM
Please, try to be more coherent in your impotent rage.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-05, 08:01 PM
I have no idea what you just said. Please use more than the occaisional punctuation.

TheMeMan
2011-02-05, 08:10 PM
So here's how the 1st encounter went. I get stuck in neck deep mud so I can't do anything to the (enemy?) group. A level 5 Monk storms the (enemy?) group "A" repeatedly, killing them. Enemy Group "B" comes in next, throwing daggers (this part is incomprehensible, and I cannot figure it out) bloody me wizard ccs. The monk comes over and kills them too. So, the Monk killed 95% of the enemies, and I earn the title "Pincushion the Avenger":smallmad:

Well... that's the best I could figure out.

Suedars
2011-02-05, 08:12 PM
No, Monks definitely aren't OP. CharOpers generally consider them a mid-tier striker (note that 4e tiers are completely different from 3.x tiers and a bottom tier class is maybe one 3.x tier behind a top-tier one). Avengers are one of the best strikers, just behind Rangers.

Also, you're an Eladrin. Couldn't you have teleported out of the mud?

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 08:16 PM
sounds like a situation that favors monks. Mobility needed and large groups of mooks which favors the monks powers and striker feature. There will be times when the monk will not be as good such as when fighting a solo monster. A sorcerer would have been a good choice in this situation as well.

Kaiser Omnik
2011-02-05, 08:19 PM
"Five Storms". It's a monk at-will. :smallbiggrin:

Mando Knight
2011-02-05, 08:28 PM
Avengers are one of the best strikers, just behind Rangers.

Only with proper support and tactics. One of the reasons the Ranger is considered so powerful is that its strategy is so straightforward, you can write a script for it within half an hour, tops. The Avenger needs to be smart about it and grab the right feats and such, otherwise it drops to one of the weakest Strikers.

Also, he's an Eladrin Avenger, the Monk is Half-Orc. One's a so-so race for the class, the other is perfectly aligned. That said, an Eladrin who doesn't teleport away from bad terrain... you almost deserve what you get.

rayne_dragon
2011-02-05, 08:40 PM
No, Monks definitely aren't OP. CharOpers generally consider them a mid-tier striker (note that 4e tiers are completely different from 3.x tiers and a bottom tier class is maybe one 3.x tier behind a top-tier one). Avengers are one of the best strikers, just behind Rangers.

Also, you're an Eladrin. Couldn't you have teleported out of the mud?

This, although I recall avengers usually being ranked as one of the more useless strikers (although the ones I've seen tend to do quite well). Also, teleport is an encounter power, so he might have used it already.

Some battles will show off one character more than another. It all depends on the circumstances.

tcrudisi
2011-02-05, 08:43 PM
This, although I recall avengers usually being ranked as one of the more useless strikers (although the ones I've seen tend to do quite well).

Not any more. They do very well. Obviously, they aren't up to par with a Ranger, but they aren't slouches, either.

As for Monks (and Sorcerers), they do very well under the right circumstances and very poorly under others. Throw a lot of clumped up bad guys at a Monk and he'll be as happy as an 8 year old child on Christmas.

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 08:43 PM
Avengers are held in high regard but they will tell you that they are deceptive in their power. Most strikers get high damage from highly damaging attacks (slayers) or multiattacks (rangers). Avengers can get very high damage but it is based on accuracy which is not as sexy as damage. Keep in mind that avengers crit twice as often as other classes. It all adds up to very nice damage but it is damage that you notice less since the individual attacks deal less damage, or happen less often (when compared to rangers).

Kyrthain
2011-02-05, 09:00 PM
No, Monks definitely aren't OP. CharOpers generally consider them a mid-tier striker (note that 4e tiers are completely different from 3.x tiers and a bottom tier class is maybe one 3.x tier behind a top-tier one). Avengers are one of the best strikers, just behind Rangers.

Also, you're an Eladrin. Couldn't you have teleported out of the mud?

Isn't avenger considered one of the weakest strikers? Or am I mistaken?

EDIT: AAAAAAAAND super swordsaged

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 09:10 PM
Isn't avenger considered one of the weakest strikers? Or am I mistaken?

EDIT: AAAAAAAAND super swordsaged

Nope they are considered quite good.

Only a few strikers in 4e are considered "sub-par" and the level of that is only slightly less than the others (with one exception). Monks and sorcerers are considered slightly weaker by a number of people because they focus on area effect striking rather than single target (AOE is normally a controller attribute and single target is normally considered a striker attribute). Some people really like the tactical versatility these classes provide and so they are argued about a lot.

The original assassin is the only striker that is almost universally considered weak as it is way too backloaded in its damage.

Even so all three do fine in a party they are just not as strong in the one target killing department. In 3.5 they would 1 tier or less away from the others.

Suedars
2011-02-05, 09:21 PM
Isn't avenger considered one of the weakest strikers? Or am I mistaken?

EDIT: AAAAAAAAND super swordsaged

They're a bit more delicate in how you build them, so a poorly built Avenger does drop quite a bit (I'd still probably rank them about on par with Monks though). A well built Avenger however is the only class capable of putting up DPR numbers competitive with a Ranger (at least pre-essentials. I'm not as familiar with the new stuff). They give up nova potential and some target selection, but gain mobility and a huge boost in durability over rangers, as well as the opportunity to go subLeader or subDefender. Overall they're a top tier striker that gives up burst damage potential for excellent survivability and positioning capability.

Hawk7915
2011-02-05, 09:22 PM
Wow, I feel like I'm on the World of Warcraft forums suddenly :smallamused:. The nerdrage is strong here.

I don't think any of that sounds OP. You got crowd controlled (in a way that it appears was entirely avoidable), and then your DM decided to plink at you with dagger attacks anyways. But because you have a party of 6, they mopped up the badguys (half of whom wasted actions attacking a helpless foe, you) without too much difficulty.

ImperiousLeader
2011-02-06, 12:07 AM
They're a bit more delicate in how you build them, so a poorly built Avenger does drop quite a bit (I'd still probably rank them about on par with Monks though). A well built Avenger however is the only class capable of putting up DPR numbers competitive with a Ranger (at least pre-essentials. I'm not as familiar with the new stuff). They give up nova potential and some target selection, but gain mobility and a huge boost in durability over rangers, as well as the opportunity to go subLeader or subDefender. Overall they're a top tier striker that gives up burst damage potential for excellent survivability and positioning capability.

Depending where you go, burst damage is a highly rated attribute for Strikers. Honestly, as much as I like Avengers, I do prefer Strikers with a bit more of an Alpha strike option.

The main thing that's changed post-Essentials is that all the Essential Strikers have really good basic attacks, making it great for Leaders that can enable basic attacks. This is a weak spot for Avengers that aren't spec'ed for it, and for Monks. The nerf to Melee Training (half stat to damage now) means that a Slayer or Hexblade can make a much more effective use of Leader granted attacks than several pre-Essential Strikers.

Suedars
2011-02-06, 12:19 AM
Power of Skill gives Avengers the ability to use Overwhelming Strike as a MBA, giving them the strongest MBA in 4e.

MeeposFire
2011-02-06, 12:34 AM
Power of Skill gives Avengers the ability to use Overwhelming Strike as a MBA, giving them the strongest MBA in 4e.

Strongest is definitely debatable. For instance eldritch strike is possibly even better and requires less investment.

Suedars
2011-02-06, 12:50 AM
I probably should have asterisked strongest. It's definitely the strongest if the Avenger is triggering their Oath. If they aren't other classes definitely get better MBAs.

MeeposFire
2011-02-06, 12:57 AM
Well oath works on any power so eldritch strike can be used with oath assuming you are a half elf or paragon multiclass (not worth it in this case but is a technical possibility). Eldritch strike is sweet since it can be boosted by arcane feats like quickened spellcasting, arcane admixture, and white lotus master paragon path. Overwhelming strike also has some nice stuff but I cannot really seeing it being the best, except with avengers only since they will not have the stats to use eldritch strike unless they are a half elf using feats to change it to a wisdom attack. This would require more feats than it is worth though in my opinion.

DSCrankshaw
2011-02-06, 01:53 AM
Power of Skill also places a limit on your deities, and as I've never found any of those deities appealing for an avenger, I've never been tempted.

Ravens_cry
2011-02-06, 02:01 AM
Wow, I feel like I'm on the World of Warcraft forums suddenly :smallamused:. The nerdrage is strong here.

:thog:Thog must refuse making WoW/4E joke. Gauntlet Legends better comparison anyway.

MeeposFire
2011-02-06, 02:09 AM
:thog:Thog must refuse making WoW/4E joke. Gauntlet Legends better comparison anyway.

Green orc is about to die. Orc needs food now!

Kurald Galain
2011-02-06, 03:47 AM
had the first session of a new campaign today
Well, for starters, you haven't mentioned what the two barbarians, the wizard, and the warlord were doing. Was the warlord handing out free attacks? If so, to whom, and if not why not? Were the barbarians tearing the enemies to shreds or were they also stuck in this mud? Was the wizard crowd-controlling back, or using his forced movement ability to get you guys out of the mud?

Because there's nothing particularly overpowered about the 4E monk; this appears to be an issue with tactics, or luck, or having one experienced player in a group of less experienced ones.

Dragonmuncher
2011-02-06, 03:51 AM
Note:


Group b comes in next to me throw daggers bloody me wizard ccs monk comes over and kills them too.


I believe this means, "Group B comes in next and throws bloody daggers at me, while the wizard Crowd Controls. Then the monk comes over and kills them too."

senrath
2011-02-06, 04:24 AM
I think it's "throws daggers and bloody me", but I could be wrong.

MeeposFire
2011-02-06, 04:25 AM
Note:




I believe this means, "Group B comes in next and throws bloody daggers at me, while the wizard Crowd Controls. Then the monk comes over and kills them too."

I think it says "Group B came in next and bloodies me with a thrown dagger attack. The wizard uses his power to assert control and the monk come back to finish off group B.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-06, 04:28 AM
I believe this means, "Group B comes in next and throws bloody daggers at me, while the wizard Crowd Controls. Then the monk comes over and kills them too."

Okay, so does that mean the 4E Wizard is overpowered, since his crowd control powers were allowing the monk to finish off all the enemies? :smallwink:

Boci
2011-02-06, 04:30 AM
Couldn't the "bloody" refer to the fact that his character was bloodied, as in lost more than half his hit point?

Edit: Nevermind, Meepos already spotted that.

MeeposFire
2011-02-06, 04:33 AM
Sounds fairly standard except where the avenger cannot get out of mud (really? Especially with a eladrin?) and somehow a monk is killing stuff that fast. There were probably minions in there though they likely did not bloody the avenger as there damage tends to be low.

Suedars
2011-02-06, 04:39 AM
Sounds fairly standard except where the avenger cannot get out of mud (really? Especially with a eladrin?) and somehow a monk is killing stuff that fast. There were probably minions in there though they likely did not bloody the avenger as there damage tends to be low.

I hadn't thought of minions. They would definitely explain why the monk seemed so incredibly powerful.

MeeposFire
2011-02-06, 04:44 AM
Yes monks are incredibly deadly to minions. Almost as nasty as a true controller. Heck that is one of the primary benefits of its striker ability (think flurry and starblade).

stabbitty death
2011-02-06, 04:28 PM
they weren't minions they had 38 hp each. We are lvl 4 btw

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-06, 07:27 PM
they weren't minions they had 38 hp each. We are lvl 4 btw

If that is the case, it should have taken the Monk several rounds to defeat them. What was the rest of the party doing during all this? What were you doing to get out of the mud?

Can you please explain the situation in greater detail??

Psyren
2011-02-06, 07:36 PM
*Tears of joy*

I don't care if the OP is mistaken, a "monks are OP" thread is a delight to see.

WitchSlayer
2011-02-06, 08:01 PM
*Tears of joy*

I don't care if the OP is mistaken, a "monks are OP" thread is a delight to see.

I know right? It's like I'm in bizarro world

MONKS AM OVERPOWERED

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-06, 08:17 PM
Monks are absolutely fantastic lead-off strikers. Full Discipline is designed to help them get into just the right place for Flurry of Blows to be absolutely devastating. Monks just couldn't be happier fighting a huge crowd of dudes (almost as happy as Sorcerers).

You know who HATE fighting large crowds of dudes? Avengers. Their class features lend themselves to singling out a single target, separating them from the group, and wailing on them until they die. Their major class feature simply doesn't work if they're surrounded, and they don't even get reliable bonus damage until they hit level 11 (Painful Oath is very, very good).

So, while Monks start off fantastic and slowly get worse as more baddies die, Avengers start off kind of weak and actually get significantly stronger as the fight progresses (due to a combination of people dying and their accuracy winning out over the long term).

Just what I've noticed.

Suedars
2011-02-06, 11:38 PM
You know who HATE fighting large crowds of dudes? Avengers. Their class features lend themselves to singling out a single target, separating them from the group, and wailing on them until they die. Their major class feature simply doesn't work if they're surrounded, and they don't even get reliable bonus damage until they hit level 11 (Painful Oath is very, very good).

So, while Monks start off fantastic and slowly get worse as more baddies die, Avengers start off kind of weak and actually get significantly stronger as the fight progresses (due to a combination of people dying and their accuracy winning out over the long term).

Just what I've noticed.

Avengers also have several encounter utility powers to let themselves easily reposition themselves and avoid minions crowding them out though.

SiuiS
2011-02-06, 11:58 PM
Please, try to be more coherent in your impotent rage.

Yoink! Plus another couple characters to get to the 10 character limit.


Yonik? My friend, this be spammy.

But then this thread is pointless.

I was in a rush to put that in. Figured I'd come back after I was done to contribute.
But Uh...
The OP is complaining that the monk over-shadowed him. Of course the monk did! You didn't teleport or use any actions whatsoever. The monk may also be spec'd for damage. Or maybe he misread something and is adding his STR instead of his STR mod on flurry. There isn't enough context to view this as anything but a gripe. Not that there is anything wrong with griping, just not what I was expecting.

Reynard
2011-02-07, 12:03 AM
Yoink! Plus another couple characters to get to the 10 character limit.

Yonik? My friend, this be spammy.

But then this thread is pointless.

Fallbot
2011-02-07, 08:10 AM
Pleeease can we have more details? Although I'm mostly just in it for the schadenfreude derived from your impotent rage, I'm sure the more helpful denizens of the playground can give you a decent explanation as to why so much ass was kicked, and some tips to make sure you don't get yourself screwed over again. I mean, they've given some good general advice/explanations already, but something more tailored to your exact situation wouldn't hurt.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-07, 08:26 AM
Methinks the only problem with the Monk here is that the Monk's player actually knew what to do. (Punch bad guys in the face.)

Sipex
2011-02-07, 09:11 AM
Yeah, I'm going to say that unless the Monk was cheating this is just a combination of several factors:
- Luck
- Strategy
- Experience
- Favouring Circumstances

CycloneJoker
2011-02-07, 10:43 AM
Yeah, I'm going to say that unless the Monk was cheating this is just a combination of several factors:
- Luck
- Strategy
- Experience
- Favouring Circumstances

I also think it has something to do with an incompetent avenger not teleporting. Jut saying.

Kylarra
2011-02-07, 12:05 PM
It looks like a pretty straightforward fight to me. Monk is especially suited for killing multiple enemies, so if they've got someone softening up the enemies for them, aka the wizard, then it's not surprise that they can mop up pretty easily.

Jaidu
2011-02-07, 12:33 PM
Following standard character creation rules, a monk could potentially have the following:
Crashing Tempest Style
Implement Focus (Mace)
Versatile Expertise (Mace/Ki Focus)

A 20/18 in Dex/Str respectively (assuming a 17/15 starting stat, +2 each for racial bonuses, +1 each at level 4), and a +1 Ki Weapon Club, and the Monk using Five Storms would be dealing 1d8+7 damage to each target hit, and another 11 damage with the flurry, or 13 to a target it didn't hit. With good rolls, the monk could potentially drop two targets with 38 hp in two rounds (13 damage to both on the first round, +11 flurry to one of them, 14 damage to both on the second round, +11 flurry to the other.)

This is assuming I'm remembering Stone Fist Flurry of Blows correctly, and that you can take implement focus in a weapon. If memory serves, Bludgeon Expertise only applies to weapon attacks, but I can't be sure.

As others have mentioned, keep in mind that the Monk does exceptionally well against multiple targets while the Avenger excels against against single targets.

Doug Lampert
2011-02-07, 12:59 PM
I know right? It's like I'm in bizarro world

MONKS AM OVERPOWERED

People regularly think this is the case about 4th ed monks.

OMG if the enemies line up in a line 1000 miles long the monk can run down the entire line and kill them all in one turn!!!

Yeah, if the enemies cooperate a monk can be deadly. Monk + Wizard vs. big group is deadly.


Pleeease can we have more details? Although I'm mostly just in it for the schadenfreude derived from your impotent rage,...

Someone with a good reason to be in this thread.


I also think it has something to do with an incompetent avenger not teleporting. Jut saying.

To be fair, he may have already used that power on something else. And most of the avenger's other movement powers have to be used as part of a melee attack. But this sort of thing is WHY every single PC or allied NPC in my games carries a ranged weapon or has a ranged power, and if their range is too short, they carry a longbow to use non-proficient.

You should NEVER have nothing to do. Especially in a large party, even the most feeble attacks add up or can kill minions.

And an Eladrin Avenger should have decent dex.

Artanis
2011-02-07, 01:03 PM
How exactly did the OP wind up buried neck deep in mud, anyways?

Jaidu
2011-02-07, 02:51 PM
To be fair, he may have already used that power on something else. And most of the avenger's other movement powers have to be used as part of a melee attack. But this sort of thing is WHY every single PC or allied NPC in my games carries a ranged weapon or has a ranged power, and if their range is too short, they carry a longbow to use non-proficient.

You should NEVER have nothing to do. Especially in a large party, even the most feeble attacks add up or can kill minions.

Just recently I was playing a monk for the first time, and I got restrained (save ends) away from any enemies. I was kicking myself for forgetting to buy any sort of ranged weapons. I was also bloodied, and our leader was not very healing-oriented, so I was content to second wind for that round, but then I failed my saving throw. On the next round, I ended up using a standard to first aid myself for a saving throw, though I'm not sure that is legal, moving, and spending an action point to attack. I could have saved my action point and contributed a bit if I'd brought some shurikens.

In short, I agree.

MeeposFire
2011-02-07, 04:55 PM
Just recently I was playing a monk for the first time, and I got restrained (save ends) away from any enemies. I was kicking myself for forgetting to buy any sort of ranged weapons. I was also bloodied, and our leader was not very healing-oriented, so I was content to second wind for that round, but then I failed my saving throw. On the next round, I ended up using a standard to first aid myself for a saving throw, though I'm not sure that is legal, moving, and spending an action point to attack. I could have saved my action point and contributed a bit if I'd brought some shurikens.

In short, I agree.

Or a sling.

stabbitty death
2011-02-07, 07:24 PM
The hitmen(then persumed to be bandits) caused the mudslide. I did use fey step to get out of it, however I was on the wrong side of the battle and couldn't get within range 10(longest range power) before the monk had them very low. other eladrin had similair problems. Shifter was in a tree most of the fight. Dragonborn and genasai were bogged down with mud(dm made us make athletics checks to move 1 square:smallannoyed:).Then (enemy) group B(consisting of 6 people) all threw daggers at me. I was 4 points away from bloodied. After that I hung back and used radiant vengance for temp. hp. thanks to cc from the wizard, I only took 4 more daggers. Shifter, Dragonborn, and Genasai help. the Monk then shows up and turns everything into a bloody pulp. We then found a wanted add with the Genasai's picture on it:smalleek:. Maybe it's just that he's a powergamer. I don't have any experience with 4th ed. To add insult to injury his defining character trait is "speaks like yoda". DM only let us take 1 item with us after the mudslide. I took my frort sword

Jaidu
2011-02-07, 07:55 PM
4 points from bloodied and you avoided the combat? No guts, no glory.

Honestly, though, if you're not used to 4e, just be aware that "nearly bloodied" means you've still got a lot of fight left in you, and you can still take your full HP in damage before you die.

stabbitty death
2011-02-08, 07:49 AM
oh right! sry I play 3.5 where it is -10 and you die. it was the first combat of the campaign, so I didn't want to die.

Sipex
2011-02-08, 09:12 AM
Ah, I would just chalk this up to luck and such then, the monk was in the right place at the right time.

Give it a few sessions and see if his performance consistantly outweighs yours, if this is the case try to see why. This could be as simple as something like he has a lot of 4e experience over you or he's just better optimised.

That said, wait and see. And remember, your guy will be really good at taking out individual targets while the monk will forever deal more 'all around' damage to enemies.

Artanis
2011-02-08, 10:34 AM
*stuff about a mudslide*

Sounds like a perfect situation for the Monk to shine. Somebody had to kill bad guys, and the Monk was the only Striker able to do a damn thing. So of course the Monk was going to be the one with the vast majority of the kills.

stabbitty death
2011-02-08, 05:52 PM
Ah, I would just chalk this up to luck and such then, the monk was in the right place at the right time.

Give it a few sessions and see if his performance consistantly outweighs yours, if this is the case try to see why. This could be as simple as something like he has a lot of 4e experience over you or he's just better optimised.

That said, wait and see. And remember, your guy will be really good at taking out individual targets while the monk will forever deal more 'all around' damage to enemies.

good idea I'll try that.

Dust
2011-02-08, 07:19 PM
Fox Box Socks is dead on the money, but the OP doesn't seem to be hearing that part of things. I guess I have to be the jerk here, then.

Listen, mate. You're on a team with two leaders (one of which is all about making the best striker even better) and three other strikers - two barbarians and a monk.

Prepare yourself to feel outclassed a lot of the time unless your GM specifically designs encounters around you. Because of the party size, you can expect lots of enemies. This means battles are going to end up being situations where one Striker manages to get in the group and wreck havoc, slaughtering anything that looks at him funny with lots of area-of-effect attacks while the Warlord and Cleric support and the Wizard makes sure things don't get away.
Assuming that because you're new to 4e you're playing the 'typical' avenger, you won't have much in the way of group damage and instead focus on mobility. Maybe it's just me, but I find that the more enemies I end up using in a battle, the less they constantly move around in a strategic sense.

So, I don't want for this to come out sounding the wrong way, but if you grade a character on 'how good' they are at doing lots of damage and killing everything in sight, prepare for a long campaign of your Avenger feeling second-best.

MeeposFire
2011-02-08, 09:28 PM
My advice is this

Let the monk and others get into the big scruf in the front lines.

You should use your maneuverability to get into the back lines and oath artillary, lurkers and skirmishers (by the way what type of avenger are you?). These guys tend to have less guys around so you can keep your oath up and chasing them helps your party by preventing them from easily hurting your party (for instance artillery monsters typically do high damage if left alone and can be hard for the melee types to get to. The monk could get to that monster but the monk should probably stick to attacking large groups since that is what monks are good at and you are better in a one on one fight situation). Pursuit avengers are best at this.

Fuzzie Fuzz
2011-02-09, 12:18 AM
At level four, if you're being completely immobilized by mud, you're doing something wrong, regardless of your stats. It also sounds like the DM made some poor decisions regarding encounter design, if his tactics involve cutting part of the party off from the rest. Couldn't you just jump over the mud?

Dust
2011-02-09, 01:41 AM
It also sounds like the DM made some poor decisions regarding encounter design, if his tactics involve cutting part of the party off from the rest.
Sounds like an awesome GM tactic to me. Forces the group to respond in creative ways and formulate a strategy to handle a pincer attack outside of their combat-comfort-zones.

DragonBaneDM
2011-02-09, 02:23 AM
Man I love this thread.

Been lurking for the past like week. It sparked this massive chain of super monk threads that have been entertaining my friends and I for days.

Almost as good as the deephelldragon thread.

Anyway, not to come across as a jerk, here's my advice:

Pick up Boots of the Fencing Master, or anything with the word "Eladrin" in it. Enhances all your teleports. Weapon of Oaths Fulfilled is an AWESOME weapon for you. Here's hoping you're the Dex-type Eladrin, though now that I think of it they can do either, which is rather sweet.

Grab something that's hurting your friends with fireballs or eye rays. Teleport it to a random corner of the room you're in. Beat on it to your heart's content. Get monk and barbarian to deal with huge crowd of minions and keep them off your back.

If you're the Int type, pack regen, a huge AC and provoke a ton of OAs. I know that sounds silly, but it lets you pack a huge wallop. Playing the masochist of the two Avenger builds requires your Leaders to show up with their game faces on.

Dust
2011-02-09, 04:26 AM
Almost as good as the deephelldragon thread.
Onward, to Big Salt Island and the talking fish! Beware the Salt Snipers!

Grab something that's hurting your friends with fireballs or eye rays. Teleport it to a random corner of the room you're in. Beat on it to your heart's content. Get monk and barbarian to deal with huge crowd of minions and keep them off your back.
Just be aware that forcing a teleport to a square where the target would fall, or if the destination space is nasty terrain of some sort, the target can make a saving throw to negate your forced 'port.

Blackfang108
2011-02-09, 08:30 AM
If you're the Int type, pack regen, a huge AC and provoke a ton of OAs.

The bolded is counter-productive. He only gets his bonus when he's HIT.

Resistances are MUCH better.

MeeposFire
2011-02-09, 12:01 PM
It is also very dangerous. Those builds (low AC) get hit hard in paragon+ as the damage will be higher than you can absorb (especially on your surges per day) and the status effects would be murder.

WitchSlayer
2011-02-09, 12:33 PM
Besides, Avengers have crazy awesome fluff. I mean seriously.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-09, 12:40 PM
Besides, Avengers have crazy awesome fluff. I mean seriously.
You mean, the exact same "holy warrior" fluff as battle clerics and paladins? :smallconfused:

DragonBaneDM
2011-02-09, 12:57 PM
Onward, to Big Salt Island and the talking fish! Beware the Salt Snipers!


Dust... Your translation in that thread was the best part. It established you as one of my heroes on here. That entire thing deserved to be archived.

Also, sorry for not checking the thing with the AC, and good catch. Wow! That build is rough!!!!

Suedars
2011-02-09, 01:03 PM
You mean, the exact same "holy warrior" fluff as battle clerics and paladins? :smallconfused:

Yes, if you consider Batman to have the same "super hero" fluff as Superman.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-09, 01:09 PM
Yes, if you consider Batman to have the same "super hero" fluff as Superman.
Everybody knows Batman is a wizard, not an avenger :smalltongue:

Seriously though, "flying brick" is a completely different archetype from "gadgeteer hero" (which is Supes and Bats, respectively), whereas avenger, cleric, and paladin are all "holy warrior" with exchangeable fluff. That's e.g. why the "holy avenger" is the traditional paladin sword. If you think differently, I'm happy to listen, but you'd have to come with something more convincing than your previous post.

Mando Knight
2011-02-09, 01:42 PM
Pick up Boots of the Fencing Master, or anything with the word "Eladrin" in it. Enhances all your teleports. Weapon of Oaths Fulfilled is an AWESOME weapon for you. Here's hoping you're the Dex-type Eladrin, though now that I think of it they can do either, which is rather sweet.
Cloak of Translocation. For teleport-spam Eladrin, it's the best. Item. Ever.

+2 Ref/AC every time you use a teleport power? And it comes with a power that lets you regain a teleportation power? Score!

Also, I would suggest multiclassing into Swordmage, even if you're a Dex Avenger. Eladrin Swordmage Advance (Arcane Power) is a sweet feat for melee Eladrin (do you like free-action Melee Basic Attacks that trigger off of a move action? I know I do!).

Suedars
2011-02-09, 01:59 PM
Everybody knows Batman is a wizard, not an avenger :smalltongue:

Seriously though, "flying brick" is a completely different archetype from "gadgeteer hero" (which is Supes and Bats, respectively), whereas avenger, cleric, and paladin are all "holy warrior" with exchangeable fluff. That's e.g. why the "holy avenger" is the traditional paladin sword. If you think differently, I'm happy to listen, but you'd have to come with something more convincing than your previous post.

Paladins are the holy warriors who ride up in shining plate, shout cliches like "Halt Villian!" , puff out their chests, and let their heroism serve as a glowing example to the faithful. They're the outward face of the church militant.

Avengers come into play when the church doesn't want their work to be as known, such as in the case of priests fallen to heresy. They take oaths to track their prey down and not let any attempted escape nor number of distractions get in the way. They rely on fear and stealth more than goodwill and diplomacy.

One is a champion, the other is an executioner/assassin. Superman works in the broad daylight to inspire the citizens of Metropolis. Batman hunts at night to inspire fear and confusion in his enemies and maintain his secrecy.