Should I watch Neon Genesis Evangelion?

[BayardSPSR]

While some say that it's the best anime of all time, I've read some mixed things about it; it looks like people either love it or hate it. I'm not sure of whether to watch it or not.

For reference, I am not a hardcore anime fan (though I've watched and enjoyed several Studio Ghibli films). When love/hate things tend to be based on things being too philosophical/confusing/weird, I tend to like them that way (I'm a fan of Megatokyo, for instance).

Any advice?

[Weimann]

I watched it, and I liked it. That's really all I can say.

[Necro_EX]

Sounds like you'll enjoy it, that series can get pretty crazy at some points and has allusions freaking everywhere.

My personal opinion is that the series is great, but Shinji is just...no.

[Lurkmoar]

Don't expect solid answers, and the last episodes suffer from budget problems. The director, Hideki Anno was majorly depressed, and took some therapy. It shows.

It's worth watching, but the ending felt... unsatisfying. I felt like Anno wanted me to feel his pain, and his method was a cheap shot. My friends and I were like "That's it!?" after it was over.

Then End of Evagelion came out, and I decided I'd watch something that didn't want to make me cut myself.

[BayardSPSR]

Yep, sounds like my kinda thing. Subtitle or dub, though? My instinct is to watch it subtitled, but I've heard it actually has pretty good dubbing.

[0Megabyte]

It does. In fact, Tiffany Grant's version of Asuka actually uses German that isn't entirely laughable. Anyway, as far as dubs go, the dub is fine. Though there are a few very minor characters with one or two lines who have laughably bad voice acting... but that's only, like, episode one.

Anyway, the show is psychological in nature, though that only comes out in time. At first, while still psychological, it doesn't show its trippier colors. Those come later. And boy are they fun. Then again, I'm the sort of guy who enjoys weird abstract stuff in my films.

If you like things being weird, you'll love Evangelion! I'd also recommend, as something with a wildly different (and more subdued and creepy) tone, Serial Experiments Lain.

[TheArsenal]

Yep, sounds like my kinda thing. Subtitle or dub, though? My instinct is to watch it subtitled, but I've heard it actually has pretty good dubbing.

Youtube is where I watched my Copy. I suggest to watch until episode 9.

[Necro_EX]

Serial Experiments Lain is definitely a great series.

I might just go rewatch that, now.

[Cespenar]

For me, Shinji was just unbearable and the show's "philosophy" was trite at best, but I agree that you should watch it so that you can have your own ideas about it.

[Comet]

It's definitely worth watching, I think.

After going through the original series and End of Evangelion, watch the Rebuild of Evangelion movies. They aren't all out yet, but they will eventually retell the entire story in what appears to be a substantially more optimistic, not to mention slightly less insane, manner.

But watch the original series first. One of the most wonderful thing about the Rebuild movies is seeing Shinji slowly becoming something different from his original role in the events, even though the dangers he faces are largely the same (and occasionally even more mind blowingly insane than before).

[Brother Oni]

Don't expect solid answers, and the last episodes suffer from budget problems.

It also suffered from censorship.

When NGE was being produced, they were so far behind schedule that often the final print was being couriered to the TV station a few hours before broadcast.

Since they didn't have time to review the tape, they usually stuck it straight on, which resulted in them showing a scene of Misato and Kaji having sex (off screen), but complete with sound effects at 7pm prime time on a major network.

The station then demanded to see the later episodes, freaked and demanded Gainax to redo them, hence the sudden shift in style and quality for episodes 25 and 26.

[Trazoi]

It's been a while since I've seen it; it was the first major anime series I saw (edit: if you don't count Astro Boy. Or the Japanese-French Mysterious Cities of Gold.). I remember enjoying the first 2/3 of the series but the last part went off into bizarro territory, like it choked to death on an overdose of symbolism or something. Overall I'm not sure whether I'd recommend it or not - it felt like the ending was missing or scrambled, but if you can enjoy a story for the first two thirds then go ahead.

[Frozen_Feet]

Read the manga. XD

... has it ended in Japan, by the way? The last volume translated to Finnish was 10 or 11, but the story didn't end there.

My collection is also missing Vo. 1, which irks me to no end.

[Eldan]

I hate it. It's one of about, oh, three things on Earth I hate.

For being so disappointing.

Let me elaborate:
The show managed to interest me, despite having a series of characters that are all, and I repeat all, utterly unlikeable.

Then they proceed to heap on layers and layers of intrigue and secret organizations.

The third to last episode basically ends with "and now, we'll finally see what htis is about!"

Then, they end the series with two episodes of the same three clips and frames repeating over and over, with some narration that doesn't solve any of the crap they have set up

[Isak]

Definitely watch it. It's by FAR my favorite series of all time.

As Comet said; Watch End of Evangelion RIGHT after. It's how episodes 25-26 were supposed to be. I'd say skip the originals entirely, but if you can wrap your head around it, they're not bad. Me, personally? I've always seen it as being two parts of the same ending. 25'-26' is what's happening in reality... Where 25-26 is what's happening in that poor kids head :smallbiggrin:

And once you've finished ALL that... Go watch Rebuild. 1.11 and 2.20. Watch them a dozen times. For their epicness is FAR more than the original Evangelions... But you will be confused beyond all belief if you don't know anything about Evangelion beforehand.

[darkblade]

After going through the original series and End of Evangelion, watch the Rebuild of Evangelion movies. They aren't all out yet, but they will eventually retell the entire story in what appears to be a substantially more optimistic, not to mention slightly less insane, manner.


Slightly less insane? If anything 2.0 was significantly more insane than original series. It's less angsty but the last twenty minutes of You Can(not) Advance were basically all of the over the top insanity Gainax had become known for since FLCL mixed in with Evangelion psuedo-psychological ramblings.


Then, they end the series with two episodes of the same three clips and frames repeating over and over, with some narration that doesn't solve any of the crap they have set up

Watch End of Evangelion. It's far from a perfect ending but it's leagues above the series ending and actually explains some of what happened and why.


All in all I say go watch the series but don't go in expecting something too amazing. It's a great series with pretty well fleshed out characters and an engaging story but it has plot holes big enough to run a Rampaging Freudian Jesus Robot through and the animation is less than stelar towards the end.

[loopy]

Ah... Neon Genesis, the show that made more sense to me when I was 12 than it does now.

I think I've gotten less intelligent since then. :smallbiggrin:

[Comet]

Slightly less insane? If anything 2.0 was significantly more insane than original series. It's less angsty but the last twenty minutes of You Can(not) Advance were basically all of the over the top insanity Gainax had become known for since FLCL mixed in with Evangelion psuedo-psychological ramblings.


True enough, but it's a different kind of insanity. There's a method to the madness this time around, and that method is awesome.

[Yora]

After going through the original series and End of Evangelion, watch the Rebuild of Evangelion movies. They aren't all out yet, but they will eventually retell the entire story in what appears to be a substantially more optimistic, not to mention slightly less insane, manner.
Booo!

Well, I liked it. And I liked it in it's insanity and think the weird ending is actually quite clever. What's the point of Evangelion if it's made more optimistic and less insane?
Everbody is telling me I should watch End of Evangelion and Rebuild, but by all acounts they made things more comprehensible and less ambigous. Yes, the scenes I've seen look awsome, but I liked it a lot how things turned out.
It's the end of the world as we know it and all humans become a liquid hive mind, but then people can simply chose to become human again? what's the point of everyone cease existing when they can just come back again?
Ghost in the Shell: Solid State Society also had lots of awsome scenes, but tried to retcon all the weirdness and ambiguity out of the manga and the movies. And I sooo hate that movie! I hate it, hate it, hate it! Completely unneccesary and trying to tear down everything the franchise had build up.
And I can't shake the idea that End of Evangelion does the same thing.

[Attilargh]

Ghost in the Shell: Solid State Society also had lots of awsome scenes, but tried to retcon all the weirdness and ambiguity out of the manga and the movies. And I sooo hate that movie! I hate it, hate it, hate it! Completely unneccesary and trying to tear down everything the franchise had build up.
...You can't retcon something in a different continuity. :smallannoyed: Look, Solid State Society is (an admittedly poor) sequel to the two Stand Alone Complex TV series, not the original movies. The only things S.A.C. (and therefore SSS) and the movies share are a handful of characters who are named and look alike, plus some cyberpunk elements.

Oh, and for the record, the original movies are very loose adaptations of the first Ghost in the Shell manga, which later got a sequel of its own, unconnected to the two animated continuities.

[Yora]

But SSS seems to very heavily imply that the events of the original movie and Innocence did happen.

Thw ability to remote control bodies is unique to the Puppet Master and I don't remember seeing anything like that in SAC. Also the Major has disappeard years ago and at the end states that she now returns back to being a cop. These things wouldn't make any sense if SSS only continues from the last episode of SAC. But they are completely obvious if the two movies happened inbetween.
While the movies and SAC are said to be in different continuities, I don't think there is anything in the movies that would contradict the events of SAC.

And I've read the second manga. That thing is really weired! :smallbiggrin: And not in a good way. I tend to ignore that one as well.

[Tengu_temp]

Evangelion is one of those shows that you don't have to like, but which you should watch just to know what all the people are talking about. Just like Cowboy Bebop (with the difference that not liking Bebop is criminal). And yes, the way to watch it is definitely original series -> End of Eva -> Rebuild of Eva.

A lot of people hate Shinji. I think that, while his whining is annoying sometimes (ugh, episode 4! Fortunately he gets a lot better after that), he's a realistic representation of how a real teenager would act in his situation. He's just a normal kid, a kid whose mom is dead and dad is an jackass who abandoned him on top of that, and now the fate of the world depends on him, and to save it he has to fight genuinely creepy creatures and suffer many injuries. And people expect him to act like a typical courageous Super Robot hero who has a giant mech and doesn't afraid of anything? Have some compassion for the kid.

The best part of Eva is its attention to detail. The symbolism is mostly empty, but the world is finely crafted in an absolutely fascinating detail that gives you a lot of food for thought. Read the Evageeks wiki and you will know what I mean.

[Attilargh]

But SSS seems to very heavily imply that the events of the original movie and Innocence did happen.
The original movie takes place in 2029 while the first season of S.A.C. takes place in 2030. Both Innocence and 2nd Gig take place in 2032, and SSS takes place in 2034. The timelines simply don't match up.

[Eldan]

I don't expect Shinji to act like a superhero.

I expect him to actually do anything other than sit in a corner, cry and expect everyone else to do everything for him.

[TheArsenal]

Since this has sort of became a discussion on the shtic I just want to add in a few plot points that dont make sense:

1: How come japan came up on top after the flood? Its a Tiny island! It should have effected it more!

2: Whats the SS's deal? Apperantly we can build mechs out of creatures we cannot even fathom, build huge mega cities but no. Were at the end of "Evolution".

3: The Philosophy can be interpreted as true but a human confrontation between the main character and his father would be SO much better (Well its my opinion) It happens in Oban Star Racers. Thats my Favourite anime. It has great visuals, an intruging chessmaster, cool alien desighns, fleshed out characters and great races every time. A TRUE masterpiece

[tyckspoon]

I don't expect Shinji to act like a superhero.

I expect him to actually do anything other than sit in a corner, cry and expect everyone else to do everything for him.

And yet he keeps getting in the damn Eva. After being hospitalized multiple times with incredibly traumatic sympathetic injuries from the damage the Eva takes. He still gets in there and tries to fight. I think he can be allowed some quite sensible complaining about how much the whole thing sucks, really.

[Yora]

One important thing to remember with NGE is that every character is a bad person and more that a bit insane.
To me it always seems as if normal human norms no longer have any meaning in that society.

[Tengu_temp]

All the psychologists and therapists died in the Second Impact.

And while pretty much every character has issues, few of them can really be called bad people. They're humans, with vices and virtues. Even Gendou has some positive traits to him.

[Drascin]

And while pretty much every character has issues, few of them can really be called bad people. They're humans, with vices and virtues. Even Gendou has some positive traits to him.

Now, let's not go crazy, here :smalltongue:.

[Cespenar]

Also, a show doesn't need to irritate the hell out of the audience to show the hesitation/fear/human side of a character. Though admittedly, as Tengu_temp has pointed out, it is far worse in the beginning than it is later on.

[TheArsenal]

And yet he keeps getting in the damn Eva. After being hospitalized multiple times with incredibly traumatic sympathetic injuries from the damage the Eva takes. He still gets in there and tries to fight. I think he can be allowed some quite sensible complaining about how much the whole thing sucks, really.

The problem is that he doesn't improve. (Whats her face) suffered MUCH more yet still gets into the Eva and then SHUTS UP...Until She stars MOANING TOO!

If he just started acting more secure, stopped his TANTRUMS! Not "Do HAVE to use me?" but "WAAAAAH! IM A HORNY BOY SO IM EVIL SO IM BAD SO IM HORRIBLE AND BLAAAAAAAAAAAa Sob Sob BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"


And honestly since we ONLY see him Mumbling it doesn't matter when he suffers. Hes always crying, so it doesn't matter hes crying now.

[Samurai Jill]

While some say that it's the best anime of all time, I've read some mixed things about it; it looks like people either love it or hate it. I'm not sure of whether to watch it or not.
You can skip the entire first half of the series and miss very little, story-wise, but it does get pretty interesting after that. I don't mind the final episodes so much.

[Tengu_temp]

The problem is that he doesn't improve.

...Have we seen the same Evangelion?


You can skip the entire first half of the series and miss very little, story-wise, but it does get pretty interesting after that. I don't mind the final episodes so much.

You can skip it, but would you want to? For me, episodes 5-12 are the most enjoyable part of the series.

[Frozen_Feet]

The problem is that he doesn't improve.

As a matter of fact, people rarely improve if faced with increasingly traumatic events. I've seen 14-year-olds, even adults, who are reduced to crying wrecks from far less responsibility on their shoulders.

Yes, Shinji is a whining bitch who should just get over it. He's also the protagonist in a deconstruction of a genre. Complaining about his complaining is missing half of the point.

[Claudius Maximus]

Evangelion is very very overrated.

It's also pretty good.

You should totally watch it, all of it, and make your own conclusions. It's too divisive to just trust internet opinions on.

[TheArsenal]

As a matter of fact, people rarely improve if faced with increasingly traumatic events. I've seen 14-year-olds, even adults, who are reduced to crying wrecks from far less responsibility on their shoulders.

Yes, Shinji is a whining bitch who should just get over it. He's also the protagonist in a deconstruction of a genre. Complaining about his complaining is missing half of the point.

So If I have a rapist then hes a "Deconstruction"? Hes still unpleasant to watch no matter how "Clever" he is.

And thats just the main point. No matter how much of a "deconstruction" he is, hes still just unpleasant. I just DONT want to see a winy soby dud that never STFU as much as I dont want to see a picture perfect hero

[comicshorse]

I just DONT want to see a winy soby dud that never STFU as much as I dont want to see a picture perfect hero

If you think Shinji is whiny NEVER watch Blue Gender

[0Megabyte]

The problem is that he doesn't improve. (Whats her face) suffered MUCH more yet still gets into the Eva and then SHUTS UP...Until She stars MOANING TOO!

If he just started acting more secure, stopped his TANTRUMS! Not "Do HAVE to use me?" but "WAAAAAH! IM A HORNY BOY SO IM EVIL SO IM BAD SO IM HORRIBLE AND BLAAAAAAAAAAAa Sob Sob BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"


And honestly since we ONLY see him Mumbling it doesn't matter when he suffers. Hes always crying, so it doesn't matter hes crying now.

I think you're too addicted to the unrealistic epiphany therapy style of psychological "improvement" too many stories practice.

People don't just "get better" that way. Especially not with the combination of issues Shinji started with (where he did, in fact, improve greatly for awhile, which is quite a feat considering) combined with the insane levels of pressure and physical and mental trauma he experiences regularly.

People get PTSD over less than what he's done. People break under this sort of thing. And, lo and behold, as a 14 year old who

sees his city destroyed, sees his friends leave, reject him, become wrapped up in emotional distress he's simply not mature enough to be able to effectively handle, or turn out to be dead and replaced by a clone (yeah, see how you take it), all in the process of seeing horrors that would drive people insane, and witnessing death first hand, he comes close to breaking- and then the new friend betrays him, and he has to kill him, effectively, with his bare hands.

Good luck, friend, in doing better.

[Frozen_Feet]

So If I have a rapist then hes a "Deconstruction"? Hes still unpleasant to watch no matter how "Clever" he is.

And thats just the main point. No matter how much of a "deconstruction" he is, hes still just unpleasant. I just DONT want to see a winy soby dud that never STFU as much as I dont want to see a picture perfect hero

I talked right past you, didn't I? Okay, let's try again:

You're supposed to dislike Shinji. It's an integral part of the story!

By showing how messed up and utterly unpleasent a boy would realistically become in situations like ones portrayed, the show is trying to make you question the core premises of the genre. It's supposed to highlight which parts of that genre you like, which are unrealistic, which are unnecessary, which would benefit from being turned on their head and which would not.

Your epiphany that an emo-teen as a protagonist, as realistic as it might be, is still as sucky as a perfect hero, is the the emotion the show is supposed to trigger.

Granted, much of this has likely been lost by time. Deconstructions don't always age well. Eva suffers from the effect TV Tropes calls "Seinfield is Unfunny", and I call "KISS Sucks Ass" - all that was good and original in the show has later been copied, and often done better, by its successors. So you've likely already seen a reconstruction based on the above epiphany: a protagonist who retains some realistic emotionalness of a teenager, while still being likeable and efficient as a character. So Shinji just comes out as a whiny bitch, without any of the cleverness it originally had, because you've seen it done and done better already.

[TheArsenal]

I think you're too addicted to the unrealistic epiphany therapy style of psychological "improvement" too many stories practice.

People don't just "get better" that way. Especially not with the combination of issues Shinji started with (where he did, in fact, improve greatly for awhile, which is quite a feat considering) combined with the insane levels of pressure and physical and mental trauma he experiences regularly.

People get PTSD over less than what he's done. People break under this sort of thing. And, lo and behold, as a 14 year old who

sees his city destroyed, sees his friends leave, reject him, become wrapped up in emotional distress he's simply not mature enough to be able to effectively handle, or turn out to be dead and replaced by a clone (yeah, see how you take it), all in the process of seeing horrors that would drive people insane, and witnessing death first hand, he comes close to breaking- and then the new friend betrays him, and he has to kill him, effectively, with his bare hands.

Good luck, friend, in doing better.

If the animation could acuratly PORTRAY whats happening then Maybe, just maybe I KNEW THAT THIS ALL JUST HAPPENED! Seriously I only got half of that wilts watching the series. Oh and the Mind biolingly stupid gay love story? Oh YEAH that wasn't underdeveloped at all.

But the wierd part is that everybody else handle things pretty well. They dont sit and CRY FOR HOURS they GET THEIR **** TOGETHER AND DO STUFF!

But there are allot of things that also dont make sense....You know what. i dont think its just he that ruins the story for me. Its a combination of Plot holes, Awesome fights that ocupy a 1/20 of the whole story, sloppy storytelling, poor characters I DONT CARE ABOUT and Stupid philosophy that come together in Neon Genisis Avangelion.




Edit:
I talked right past you, didn't I? Okay, let's try again:

You're supposed to dislike Shinji. It's an integral part of the story!

By showing how messed up and utterly unpleasent a boy would realistically become in situations like ones portrayed, the show is trying to make you question the core premises of the genre. It's supposed to highlight which parts of that genre you like, which are unrealistic, which are unnecessary, which would benefit from being turned on their head and which would not.

Your epiphany that an emo-teen as a protagonist, as realistic as it might be, is still as sucky as a perfect hero, is the the emotion the show is supposed to trigger.

Granted, much of this has likely been lost by time. Deconstructions don't always age well. Eva suffers from the effect TV Tropes calls "Seinfield is Unfunny", and I call "KISS Sucks Ass" - all that was good and original in the show has later been copied, and often done better, by its successors. So you've likely already seen a reconstruction based on the above epiphany: a protagonist who retains some realistic emotionalness of a teenager, while still being likeable and efficient as a character. So Shinji just comes out as a whiny bitch, without any of the cleverness it originally had, because you've seen it done and done better already.


Like I said: I do get Im supposed to dislike him...So mission accomplished. I dislike the main character so I hate his guts and loose interest in the story...Deep?

I respect Superman For Creating Superheroes yet I still find him as dull as white bread, but I do like him.

[Lurkmoar]

But the wierd part is that everybody else handle things pretty well. They dont sit and CRY FOR HOURS they GET THEIR **** TOGETHER AND DO STUFF!


Um... Asuka doesn't do much after a close encounter with an angel. Rei seems like she just sits in the dark when she's not at school or piloting the Eva.

But the adults all have varying degrees of jackass in them, with Gendo taking the lion's share. And you know, their idea of thanking the kids is taking them out to a fancy dinner. What a rip off.

[Mr.Bookworm]

As an aspiring psych student, it majorly bugs me when people bitch about Shinji, his issues, and him not being Kamina.

At the start of the series, before he even gets shoved into the Eva, he has pretty incredible psychological trauma. His mother dies right in front of him and his father immediately abandons him. That's the sort of thing that can cripple people. It's quite frankly amazing at how well-adjusted Shinji is.

Now, in the first episode (out of 26), he has his entire life uprooted suddenly by his father, is emotionally abused and manipulated by said father into fighting for his life, and suffers the pain of having his arm broken and a spike shoved through his head. This isn't even going into the stuff about the fight shown in episode 2.

If he had gotten on the train right then, and headed out of Tokyo-3 for a hypothetical land with less giant monsters and more therapists, he would still need some serious help.

But he sticks around. Mostly due to said issues, but that's the bitch about it.

By the time the 13th Angel fight was over, I was amazed that Shinji hadn't tried to commit suicide. He runs away, sure, but he ends up getting back in the giant robot (again partly due to some emotional manipulation) and fighting to the death.

And again given his issues, he displays a crapload of bravery. Just getting into the Eva to fight to the death with an Angel at least 18 times is incredible. Then he does things like jumping into a volcano without wearing protection to save Asuka. And fistfighting an Angel that took out two Evas and took a nuke to the face and winning.

tl;dr version: Shinji is actually incredibly well adjusted given the issues he has and acquires through the course of the series (there's literally at least one for each Angel). He also displays some surprising badassery.

[0Megabyte]

"If the animation could acuratly PORTRAY whats happening then Maybe, just maybe I KNEW THAT THIS ALL JUST HAPPENED! Seriously I only got half of that wilts watching the series. Oh and the Mind biolingly stupid gay love story? Oh YEAH that wasn't underdeveloped at all."

Wow. Calm down a little. It's a tv show, no need to get angry about it. Anyway, I didn't describe anything they didn't show outright in the show, so I don't understand your complaint. The animation didn't accurately portray it? Which part? The deaths? The emotional collapse of the characters? The destruction? The fact that Shinji fought various horrifying entities and saw people die on camera? That his friends left in the end? I honestly don't know what to say, and I'm honestly confused about what you mean.

As for the "gay love story" bit... it wasn't, not exactly. I mean, keep in mind, Kaworu wasn't even human.I'm not really sure what to tell you. It was one episode, and Shinji was more clinging to someone who actually showed him affection in his time of distress than anything else.


"But the wierd part is that everybody else handle things pretty well. They dont sit and CRY FOR HOURS they GET THEIR **** TOGETHER AND DO STUFF!"

Do stuff. You mean like, fighting and killing the majority of the Angels himself or as an effective part of a team? Stuff like that? Stuff like making friends and growing closer to people, before everything went to hell?

He fights and defeats the enemies. And handling the stress a lot better than you're handling my disagreement with you. I'm not really sure what you want. Him to get over his issues?

Issues like his don't just go away in stressful situations. People don't just magically fix themselves like they do on television. His father abandoned him, he doesn't trust people, he's afraid of being hurt again. And then he gets hurt again, and rejected, and sees the people he cares about suffer and sometimes die. Then he has to kill them himself. Good luck having some sort of improvement in that situation.

"But there are allot of things that also dont make sense....You know what. i dont think its just he that ruins the story for me. Its a combination of Plot holes, Awesome fights that ocupy a 1/20 of the whole story, sloppy storytelling, poor characters I DONT CARE ABOUT and Stupid philosophy that come together in Neon Genisis Avangelion."

Evangelion, not Avengelion. The keys aren't even that close. Actually, you really do need a spellcheck. There's no need for some weird impotent all-caps rage here. Again, it's a tv show.

And it doesn't do what you want to enjoy it. Go figure. That doesn't make it bad. That just means you don't like what it does. Go and enjoy random epiphanies, and characters who will gleefully slaughter everything in their path. Those can be fun, too. Just don't mistake them for realistic.

Anyway, stories don't need to have likable characters to be any good. Take the movie The Conformist. One of the most beautifully shot, and best, movies I've ever seen. The protagonist is a closet-homosexual fascist whose every action is to blend into society, because he is too different. He just wants to be normal, and will kill and destroy to do it. In his most honest moments, though, he shows a remarkable sadism that shows that he's really just as bad a character as you can get. He never gets better, he never "gets over it."

And the show is amazing. But it's probably not something you'd like either.

Or take Fellini's 8 1/2. Guido is a cad who manages his affairs so badly his wife and his mistress end up at the same place at the same time. He is directing a movie, but there is no movie. He can't do it, and he strings everyone along endlessly while he lusts over the women in his life and around him. In his script, which the wife sees in the auditions she attends with him, he put actual conversation with his wife - which he then changed into a disgusting and obvious wish-fulfillment.

He dreams of a particular person who will save him, somehow, from his life. And then he meets her, and it turns out as empty as everything else he does.

In the end, he fails to make his movie, and gives up, in a scene that would make Evangelion proud. In fact, the entire movie is about as weird as the psychological stuff in Eva. More-so, because Fellini puts you inside the head of Guido, and you see his imaginings in the same spaces as what's really going on.

You probably wouldn't like that one, either. Guido doesn't get over it. But it's still high art.

But is Evangelion high art? I dunno. But you do it a disservice with your poorly spell-checked screed.

[Tengu_temp]

I'd like to point out that this thread was started by a guy asking should he watch Evangelion, so it's common courtesy not to spoil too much. Heck, even my posts probably had too much spoilers.

[TheArsenal]

"If the animation could acuratly PORTRAY whats happening then Maybe, just maybe I KNEW THAT THIS ALL JUST HAPPENED! Seriously I only got half of that wilts watching the series. Oh and the Mind biolingly stupid gay love story? Oh YEAH that wasn't underdeveloped at all."

Wow. Calm down a little. It's a tv show, no need to get angry about it. Anyway, I didn't describe anything they didn't show outright in the show, so I don't understand your complaint. The animation didn't accurately portray it? Which part? The deaths? The emotional collapse of the characters? The destruction? The fact that Shinji fought various horrifying entities and saw people die on camera? That his friends left in the end? I honestly don't know what to say, and I'm honestly confused about what you mean.

As for the "gay love story" bit... it wasn't, not exactly. I mean, keep in mind, Kaworu wasn't even human.I'm not really sure what to tell you. It was one episode, and Shinji was more clinging to someone who actually showed him affection in his time of distress than anything else.


"But the wierd part is that everybody else handle things pretty well. They dont sit and CRY FOR HOURS they GET THEIR **** TOGETHER AND DO STUFF!"

Do stuff. You mean like, fighting and killing the majority of the Angels himself or as an effective part of a team? Stuff like that? Stuff like making friends and growing closer to people, before everything went to hell?

He fights and defeats the enemies. And handling the stress a lot better than you're handling my disagreement with you. I'm not really sure what you want. Him to get over his issues?

Issues like his don't just go away in stressful situations. People don't just magically fix themselves like they do on television. His father abandoned him, he doesn't trust people, he's afraid of being hurt again. And then he gets hurt again, and rejected, and sees the people he cares about suffer and sometimes die. Then he has to kill them himself. Good luck having some sort of improvement in that situation.

"But there are allot of things that also dont make sense....You know what. i dont think its just he that ruins the story for me. Its a combination of Plot holes, Awesome fights that ocupy a 1/20 of the whole story, sloppy storytelling, poor characters I DONT CARE ABOUT and Stupid philosophy that come together in Neon Genisis Avangelion."

Evangelion, not Avengelion. The keys aren't even that close. Actually, you really do need a spellcheck. There's no need for some weird impotent all-caps rage here. Again, it's a tv show.

And it doesn't do what you want to enjoy it. Go figure. That doesn't make it bad. That just means you don't like what it does. Go and enjoy random epiphanies, and characters who will gleefully slaughter everything in their path. Those can be fun, too. Just don't mistake them for realistic.

Anyway, stories don't need to have likable characters to be any good. Take the movie The Conformist. One of the most beautifully shot, and best, movies I've ever seen. The protagonist is a closet-homosexual fascist whose every action is to blend into society, because he is too different. He just wants to be normal, and will kill and destroy to do it. In his most honest moments, though, he shows a remarkable sadism that shows that he's really just as bad a character as you can get. He never gets better, he never "gets over it."

And the show is amazing. But it's probably not something you'd like either.

Or take Fellini's 8 1/2. Guido is a cad who manages his affairs so badly his wife and his mistress end up at the same place at the same time. He is directing a movie, but there is no movie. He can't do it, and he strings everyone along endlessly while he lusts over the women in his life and around him. In his script, which the wife sees in the auditions she attends with him, he put actual conversation with his wife - which he then changed into a disgusting and obvious wish-fulfillment.

He dreams of a particular person who will save him, somehow, from his life. And then he meets her, and it turns out as empty as everything else he does.

In the end, he fails to make his movie, and gives up, in a scene that would make Evangelion proud. In fact, the entire movie is about as weird as the psychological stuff in Eva. More-so, because Fellini puts you inside the head of Guido, and you see his imaginings in the same spaces as what's really going on.

You probably wouldn't like that one, either. Guido doesn't get over it. But it's still high art.

But is Evangelion high art? I dunno. But you do it a disservice with your poorly spell-checked screed.

Its because I get mad. Hundreds and HUNDREDS of people tell me how much Evangelion is a high and mighty masterpiece....And I don't see it. I guess its in they eye of the beholder but.. I just see characters who I do not care about. At all. I find plot holes easily which are never explained but there is always some HUGE fan theory that says otherwise. I guess I'm just not willing to discuss this show and find higher truths in it. I just find the characters a combination of boring and repulsive. Sorry for My Poorly written last post. I was just getting ragelike-thingy.

[Samurai Jill]

You can skip it, but would you want to? For me, episodes 5-12 are the most enjoyable part of the series.
There are some amusing interludes, but the 'monster of the week' routine gets a bit old for me after a while. YMMV, I suppose.

[TheThan]

I say its worth seeing.
Neon Genesis Evangelion is sort of required viewing for any anime fan. So if you want to earn your anime fan stripes, I suggest you watch it. Now that’s not to say you have to like it mind you.



If you think Shinji is whiny NEVER watch Blue Gender
I actually thought that Yuji was far less whiny than Shinji. At the very least, he’s an adult and tries to handle his situation like an adult. I felt that Shinji came off as just a whiny kid with parent issues.

[Tengu_temp]

There are some amusing interludes, but the 'monster of the week' routine gets a bit old for me after a while. YMMV, I suppose.

I like those episodes precisely because they're so light-hearted and actiony. I know that it's probably totally missing the point of Evangelion, but I don't care.

[darkblade]

Also skipping those episodes means missing out on most of Asuka doing anything. She isn't in the first act and is negligible in the end game.

[TheArsenal]

I like those episodes precisely because they're so light-hearted and actiony. I know that it's probably totally missing the point of Evangelion, but I don't care.

I love those episodes too.

[Lord Seth]

I recommend watching Neon Genesis Evangelion (including End of Evangelion), and then right afterwards watching Gurren Lagann.

[Seraph]

I think eva is good, but its hard to watch for the first time these days because most modern mecha has taken what innovative things it did and beat them into the ground.

also, while shinji certainly is whiny, anyone who says he's ineffectual is projecting. He more or less singlehandedly saves the world on several occasions, all while the world seems to be actively giving him reasons to want it gone; so really, can you be surprised at what he does in the end?

In any case, I've always felt that the people most vitriolic towards shinji are the ones it hits too close to home for. Super Robot shows are pure escapism, but shinji is tailor designed to remind the viewer that it's just that - escapism, an unrealistic fantasy that the viewer will never experience, and wouldn't be able to handle even if they did. Most shinji-haters, in effect, are just like him, but desperately hold on to the belief that they're totally capable of being a huge badass.

[Samurai Jill]

Also skipping those episodes means missing out on most of Asuka doing anything. She isn't in the first act and is negligible in the end game.
...That, for me, is all to the good. (That said, I don't think she's negligible in the endgame. Her story arc certainly has thematic relevance. She just isn't terribly effective, job-wise.)

[Dacia Brabant]

It's a seminal work of its medium and genre, so yes you should watch it if anime is something you're interested in. However, just because it's a seminal work doesn't mean it isn't also deeply flawed. The manga is definitely more cleanly produced, as is Rebuild from what I've seen, but the original NGE+EoE, with its "warts and all" approach, is really quite unique. I'm not even sure it could be made now, the studios are so repetitive with what they crank out that even if it did make it through its debut episodes I doubt it would get beyond the "monster of the week" motif. Which would really be unfortunate, there's some great material around episodes 18-24.

[BayardSPSR]

Well, if this is anything to go by, I'll probably like it. I've already watched most of the first episode on youtube, and I've got a sense of some of the things you're talking about already. For example. my instinct on Shinji right now is that yes, he's definitely whiney, but he seems to have some damn good reasons to be.

Enough about that, though. Thank you all very much; it's helped me quite a lot in making my decision. I'm planning on getting it and watching it through (subtitled), then maybe following up with the movies if the end is as confusing as it seems likely to be.

[Dacia Brabant]

The dubbing is actually pretty good so I wouldn't feel too pidgeonholed about watching it subtitled. And one of the best lines in the series is only available in the English dub.

[darkblade]

The dubbing is actually pretty good so I wouldn't feel too pidgeonholed about watching it subtitled. And one of the best lines in the series is only available in the English dub.

What line would that be?

[Dacia Brabant]

What line would that be?

Misato Katsuragi, Episode 7: "Acts of men are better than acts of god." ("We'll just have to make our own miracle" in the sub.)

[Lord Seth]

Enough about that, though. Thank you all very much; it's helped me quite a lot in making my decision. I'm planning on getting it and watching it through (subtitled), then maybe following up with the movies if the end is as confusing as it seems likely to be.To be honest, I didn't view End of Evangelion as much of an improvement. It's a little more coherent and has slightly more resolution, but only by a little. It's still extremely confusing, it still lacks resolution, and on top of that it has pacing problems as well asthat whole "Shinji jerks off to unconscious Asuka" scenewhich I thought was both gross and unnecessary.

I would like to restate my suggestion to, after finishing Evangelion, watch Gurren Lagann.

Also, quick question here: In the first set of dubbed DVDs, at the end of the first episode with Asuka:Gendo receives Adam and remarks that "this is the first human. This is Adam." Thing is, Adam wasn't the first human (well, not the Adam in Evangelion at least), but the first Angel. So Gendo's line doesn't make sense. I remember reading that in the Platinum re-issues they fixed some translation errors, was that one of them?

[darkblade]

I would like to restate my suggestion to, after finishing Evangelion, watch Gurren Lagann.


Do not get me started on Sigmund Freud meets Ayn Rand - The Mecha Anime. That's not a reconstruction of the genre, it's blatantly ignoring all the critisim put forward by Evangelion and going back to run of the mill Super Robot roots with utterly abhorent people held up as ideals.

[BayardSPSR]

Do not get me started on Sigmund Freud meets Ayn Rand - The Mecha Anime. That's not a reconstruction of the genre, it's blatantly ignoring all the critisim put forward by Evangelion and going back to run of the mill Super Robot roots with utterly abhorent people held up as ideals.

And THAT sounds like something I would NOT enjoy.

[FlashRah]

I wouldnt recommend it. I thought it was pretentious. But that's just me.

[Lord Seth]

Do not get me started on Sigmund Freud meets Ayn Rand - The Mecha Anime.Huh? :smallconfused: I can get why someone might not like Gurren Lagann, but seriously, "Sigmund Frued meets Ayn Rand"? I don't see how either one of those applies to Gurren Lagann.


That's not a reconstruction of the genre, it's blatantly ignoring all the critisim put forward by Evangelion and going back to run of the mill Super Robot roots with utterly abhorent people held up as ideals.Uh, how are they "utterly abhorrent"? They're a bit idealized but I don't see how they're "utterly abhorrent."
And THAT sounds like something I would NOT enjoy.Neither would I, as I don't see how it applies to Gurren Lagann.

[Tengu_temp]

Also, quick question here: In the first set of dubbed DVDs, at the end of the first episode with Asuka:Gendo receives Adam and remarks that "this is the first human. This is Adam." Thing is, Adam wasn't the first human (well, not the Adam in Evangelion at least), but the first Angel. So Gendo's line doesn't make sense. I remember reading that in the Platinum re-issues they fixed some translation errors, was that one of them?

This line is in the original too. My explanation: Gendo is simply mistaken here. He doesn't know everything.

[darkblade]

Huh? :smallconfused: I can get why someone might not like Gurren Lagann, but seriously, "Sigmund Frued meets Ayn Rand"? I don't see how either one of those applies to Gurren Lagann.

Uh, how are they "utterly abhorrent"? They're a bit idealized but I don't see how they're "utterly abhorrent.


Kamina is John Galt with sunglasses and without a shirt. Every single danger to humanity can be traced to his fault. They were safe underground but his refusal to play his role in society because of his determend indivduality brought the Gunman upon the villiage and nearly destroies it. Thats just the first episode and he's already shown himself to be a sociopath in the most literal sense. From there either he or his followers drawn bigger and bigger threats to the Earth even after they learn that the power they have been using to fight those threats when they come will most likely destroy the universe. This is all treated as a good thing.

Simon is everything that is wrong with Shinji but with even less backbone. At least Shinji was aware he was being manipulated for most of the series but Simon can't even see how badly abused he is by Kamina, even to the point of mentally continuing the abuse after Kamina's death.

As for Freud...go back and watch any of the major fight scenes. It's not even subtle about what the Drills are supposed to represent.

[Psyren]

As for Freud...go back and watch any of the major fight scenes. It's not even subtle about what the Drills are supposed to represent.

That's pretty much standard for shonen though :smalltongue:
For the record, your analysis makes sense to me.

As for Eva and the OP: the fact that the show inspires this much controversy among this many playgrounders should be recommendation enough.

[Brother Oni]

As for Eva and the OP: the fact that the show inspires this much controversy among this many playgrounders should be recommendation enough.

No, the fact that so many people disagree on the worth and ideas of the show, but all still recommend that you watch it yourself to make up your own mind, is recommendation enough. :smallbiggrin:

[Friv]

Kamina is John Galt with sunglasses and without a shirt. Every single danger to humanity can be traced to his fault. They were safe underground but his refusal to play his role in society because of his determend indivduality brought the Gunman upon the villiage and nearly destroies it. Thats just the first episode and he's already shown himself to be a sociopath in the most literal sense.

1) I think you're operating under a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of how Ayn Rand operates. Being free-spirited does not make you Randian.
2) Kamina has literally nothing to do with the arrival of the gunmen in the first episode. It falls into the village during its battle against Littner Village, and he promptly steps up to try and defend the village from it. An argument could be made that his attitude prevents Yoko from killing it (due to his beliefs that stealth is not honorable), but it's never really shown for certain whether she could have or not.

I could go on at length, but I feel like it would be a derail. If you'd like to have a debate on the matter, we could move to another thread.

[Eldan]

No, the fact that so many people disagree on the worth and ideas of the show, but all still recommend that you watch it yourself to make up your own mind, is recommendation enough. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah. Go watch it. After you're done, set the DVD on fire in the backyard while solemnly gazing at the sunset and reflecting on why you wasted so many hours of your life on a show that has no real ending and leaves you hanging like that.

[AsteriskAmp]

Yeah. Go watch it. After you're done, set the DVD on fire in the backyard while solemnly gazing at the sunset and reflecting on why you wasted so many hours of your life on a show that has no real ending and leaves you hanging like that.

Isn't there like a whole movie called END of Evangelion?

[Lurkmoar]

Isn't there like a whole movie called END of Evangelion?

I actually threw the DVD of EoE at my friend because I wanted to watch Dead Alive (Brain Dead). I still stand by that opinion. Mostly because I got the feeling that Anno hated his core audience.

Oh well, Evangelion merchandise sells great, Rei is viewed as a sex object, Asuka is treated like crap and Shinji gets dumped on. The world keeps on turning.

[Lord Seth]

They were safe undergroundThey were also being oppressed and their living conditions were poor.


but his refusal to play his role in society because of his determend indivduality brought the Gunman upon the villiage and nearly destroies it.From what I remember, Kamina had nothing to do with the Gunman coming into the village.


From there either he or his followers drawn bigger and bigger threats to the EarthMost or all of which they couldn't have known about until it was too late.


even after they learn that the power they have been using to fight those threats when they come will most likely destroy the universe.If I remember correctly, they didn't find that out until the end of the series, so it's not like they were going through the whole series with that knowledge. Also as a note, if at that time they chose not to fight those threats, Earth would've been destroyed and all of humanity would've been killed. Would you prefer that?

Also, they don't ignore the threat that too much spiral power poses. That's why at the end of the series they're working to stop that threat, just without oppressing all the other races like the Anti-Spirals did.


This is all treated as a good thing.Fighting against unnecessary tyranny and oppression and protecting your species and others isn't a good thing?


Simon is everything that is wrong with Shinji but with even less backbone. At least Shinji was aware he was being manipulated for most of the series but Simon can't even see how badly abused he is by Kamina, even to the point of mentally continuing the abuse after Kamina's death.Abused? Kamina could be a bit rough on Simon but that was to stop him from feeling sorry for himself and ending up like Shinji. It's why Simon grows as a leader and is ultimately victorious whereas Shinji just gets more and more depressed and tries strangling people for no reason. (granted, there is also the fact that the universe seems out to make Shinji miserable as well)


I could go on at length, but I feel like it would be a derail. If you'd like to have a debate on the matter, we could move to another thread.Well there is actually a Gurren Lagann thread at the moment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185833), though not sure it would necessarily be suitable at this time due to it being a watch-through. Of course, there was plenty of debate in my Let's Read Eragon thread about stuff in the later books, so...
Isn't there like a whole movie called END of Evangelion?Yeah, but like I said, it's also pretty incoherent and without a real resolution. It has slightly more coherency and slightly more resolution than the TV series ending, but not by much. Plus I feel it suffers from major pacing problems.

Maybe Rebuild of Evangelion will finally give us a decent conclusion...if it ever does reach a conclusion, considering the pace at which it's being released.

[0Megabyte]

Let me plug again:

Evangelion was great. It was a lot of fun, and while it has its excesses, even its most stylized parts have their value.

Then again, I've been exposed to much weirder stuff, including weirder American stuff.

Honestly, it's a different kind of thing. Some people don't like that, and that's okay. But it's not a bad show, and its weirdest parts have value all their own. But I'm a film major, and I've watched Un Chien Andalou. I simply have a different perspective on what's worthwhile on films. I bet a lot of these people would think the art I like is awful. That's okay.

Anything that takes real risks, anything that actually breaks the conventions, runs the risk of being rejected. Some people reject Evangelion because it does that. But dang, this show! There are such moments in it. Such beautiful filmic moments.

[Yora]

As for Freud...go back and watch any of the major fight scenes. It's not even subtle about what the Drills are supposed to represent.
In that case, you have to see the first fight between Raiden and Vamp in Metal Gear Solid 4. :smallbiggrin:

[Lurkmoar]

In that case, you have to see the first fight between Raiden and Vamp in Metal Gear Solid 4. :smallbiggrin:

I felt rather uncomfortable after that fight... I know there's been a lot of subtext in the games, but that moment was just totally out of the closet!

[Eldan]

Really, I don't reject Evangelion for beind weird, or dark. I love dark and weird. I reject it because in the end, I got the feeling the makers weren't actually sure what they were doing and instead just threw random symbolism and conspiracies at us until something seemed to stick. If they had explained what the connection between angels and humans is, or the first impact, or EVAs, or the Spear of Longinus, or what exactly the grand plans where supposed to do in the first place, great. I'd have liked the show, no matter how weird the explanation.

[druid91]

Ive never seen evangelion. However I will say that Shinji and warhammer 40k is awesome. If currently unfinished.

summary: Shinji gets warhammer figurines. He effectively substitutes them for parental figures. And starts hearing "their" voices in his head. He also becomes crazy awesome and is slowly turning into a god-Emperor of mankind analogue.

[Fan]

I think eva is good, but its hard to watch for the first time these days because most modern mecha has taken what innovative things it did and beat them into the ground.

also, while shinji certainly is whiny, anyone who says he's ineffectual is projecting. He more or less singlehandedly saves the world on several occasions, all while the world seems to be actively giving him reasons to want it gone; so really, can you be surprised at what he does in the end?

In any case, I've always felt that the people most vitriolic towards shinji are the ones it hits too close to home for. Super Robot shows are pure escapism, but shinji is tailor designed to remind the viewer that it's just that - escapism, an unrealistic fantasy that the viewer will never experience, and wouldn't be able to handle even if they did. Most shinji-haters, in effect, are just like him, but desperately hold on to the belief that they're totally capable of being a huge badass.

Funnily, that's specifically WHY I like it. I see in Shinji what I see in my younger self, and I accept and realize that what this sort of thing would be if I ever imagined it happening to me.

That, and to those who call Shinji someone who doesn't approve, AND, avoid spoilers one specific line I shall quote. Go ahead and google it.



GIVE AYANAMI BACK!

[Brother Oni]

Ive never seen evangelion. However I will say that Shinji and warhammer 40k is awesome. If currently unfinished.

While I enjoy the NGE/W40K story, it's missing the point of the original NGE, which was a deconstruction of the entire 'giant mecha' genre.

Go watch some old Gundam or Macross, then compare the themes and execution of them, to how they were done in NGE.

The NGE/40K story just turns it back into the original giant mecha themes, which meshes really well with the whole heroic GRIMDARK theme of 40K.

[Comet]

Evangelion is indeed one of the few franchises that I really like to see well-written fanfiction for, whether unofficial (Shinji and 40k, awesome) or 'official' (Super Robot Wars, awesome).

While it might be 'missing the point', seeing Shinji live a somewhat happier life in an alternate universe just makes me plain happy inside. The kid deserves it.
This is also one of the reasons I like Rebuild of Eva so much. First we saw how Shinji could be broken in the original series, now there's a slight hint that Anno wants to show us how he could be fixed. We already had one deconstruction, so it's nice to see the same themes played out in a different, less depressing way while preserving the central themes, symbols and feel of the story.

[druid91]

While I enjoy the NGE/W40K story, it's missing the point of the original NGE, which was a deconstruction of the entire 'giant mecha' genre.

Go watch some old Gundam or Macross, then compare the themes and execution of them, to how they were done in NGE.

The NGE/40K story just turns it back into the original giant mecha themes, which meshes really well with the whole heroic GRIMDARK theme of 40K.

While I can't completely gainsay you. While it starts out that way it has gotten pretty distant from that in many of the later chapters.

Most of shinjis great accomplishments are outside of the Eva.

[TheArsenal]

Really, I don't reject Evangelion for beind weird, or dark. I love dark and weird. I reject it because in the end, I got the feeling the makers weren't actually sure what they were doing and instead just threw random symbolism and conspiracies at us until something seemed to stick. If they had explained what the connection between angels and humans is, or the first impact, or EVAs, or the Spear of Longinus, or what exactly the grand plans where supposed to do in the first place, great. I'd have liked the show, no matter how weird the explanation.

This is what I stand behind. Im fine with people saying "I like the show no matter how weird or problematic it is"

Im sorry for my previous outbursts but I just do not like Evangelion. I dont. I dont want to go into tirades because yes they end up like tantrums and are pretty bad.

Please Forgive me for acting like such a jerk.

And I googled it. Without any context I can neither hate nor love that clip. Is this from the rebuild series? Looks pretty cool, but im not planning on watching it.

[Incompleat]

The first part of NGE was pretty fun - the characters were a little flat, perhaps, and that damn penguin was freaking annoying, but all thing considered it was an interesting take on the super robot genre.

The last few episodes of the TV series... well, speaking as someone who is a big fan of mindscrews, I found them just too sloppy: the quality of the animation was poor, and the whole thing felt like nothing more than a transparent attempt to finish the series in as few episodes and with as little work as possible.

Also, the whole Rei fandom thing is just too creepy for words, but that was not really the fault of the authors...

I have not seen the movies yet, but I probably will eventually, since, according to what I heard, they are much better than the TV series.

[Lord Seth]

The last few episodes of the TV series... well, speaking as someone who is a big fan of mindscrews, I found them just too sloppy: the quality of the animation was poor, and the whole thing felt like nothing more than a transparent attempt to finish the series in as few episodes and with as little work as possible.Well to be fair, they pretty much had to, they were so low on budget they had to cut corners wherever possible and even threw out their original ideas for the episode, though those were (somewhat) adapted into End of Evangelion.

Not to say that makes the last episodes good; I am of the opinion that even if a problem in a series was unavoidable, that doesn't change the fact the problem exists. However, I don't lay too much blame on the makers as they were kind of forced into it. (though I think they still could've done a better job)

[Illieas]

While some say that it's the best anime of all time, I've read some mixed things about it; it looks like people either love it or hate it. I'm not sure of whether to watch it or not.

For reference, I am not a hardcore anime fan (though I've watched and enjoyed several Studio Ghibli films). When love/hate things tend to be based on things being too philosophical/confusing/weird, I tend to like them that way (I'm a fan of Megatokyo, for instance).

Any advice?

I would say get the movies. evangelion 1.12 and evangelion 2.20. mostly because animation is better and the characters are no longer as angsty. sadly the movies aren't done we got i think 2 more to go before they finished.
so about two years from now.

in anime history stand point it is important in that it deconstructed the mecha genre. when every mecha before was a happy go lucky 12 year old ready to go out to war. now this doesn't seem as revolutionary with more mecha anime being more crap sack world like

as an anime it was great better animation and fights then what i was watching at the time which was gundam wing and their spinning lazers of death. ending i didn't really get so really it is the early episode i recommend and end at the last angel.

[Yora]

Also, the whole Rei fandom thing is just too creepy for words, but that was not really the fault of the authors...
I like Rei. But I think I see her in the way the creators reportedly intended.
She has her moments in which some traces of caring for Shinji shine through, but later on I think it becomes very clear that her mind works completely different from other peoples.
Not that she's evil or dangerous, but you just can't treat her like you would normal people.

[Incompleat]

May I suggest that you add a spoiler box to your post, perhaps? The OP has not watched the series yet, I think ;)


Oh, she is an interesting character, I agree.

What creeped me out was learning that a good number of adult fans of the series, ahem, fantasize about her in ungentlemanly ways.

I mean, come on: she is an emotionally stunted, traumatized little girl!

[Brother Oni]

Most of shinjis great accomplishments are outside of the Eva.

Which is exactly in keeping with the old mecha series themes: the mecha is first there to provide a crutch for the protagonist to develop, only to be discarded when they've grown sufficiently heroic and are ready to perform their greatest and most memorable accomplishments.




Oh, she is an interesting character, I agree.

What creeped me out was learning that a good number of adult fans of the series, ahem, fantasize about her in ungentlemanly ways.

I mean, come on: she is an emotionally stunted, traumatized little girl!


Regarding Rei:


Depends very much on which Rei you're talking about. Each of them have distinct personalities - Rei 1 was very precocious which directly resulted in her death, Rei 2 was the most developed and the most human one, Rei 3 has the least emotional connection to any of the characters.

Rei 2 and 3 are both well aware that they're not human and that they're replaceable, just that come to terms with that in different ways. Rei 2 decides to sacrifice herself and be happy, Rei 3 decides she isn't Gendo's puppet and chooses to defy him.

[Yora]

I mean, come on: she is an emotionally stunted, traumatized little girl!

Oh no, she isn't! :smallbiggrin: Rei 2 and Rei 3 learn a bit about compassion, but I think she's no more human than an EVA. Yes, she looks like Yui and has some of her DNA, but she is still an Eldritch Abomination. She's not evil or has any intention of harming anyone, but she can only try to mimic human behaviour, which she manages really poorly. :smallamused:
Kaworu manages a lot better, but I don't think the mind and thoughts of Rei 2 have any resemblance to a human mind. What interest she has in humans and the bit of kindness towards Shinji is probably just the result of humans being born from Lilith, but she's on a waaay higher level of consciousness.

That's also why the alternate reality vision in the last episode is so ****ed up. :smallbiggrin:

[0Megabyte]

Oh no, she isn't! :smallbiggrin: Rei 2 and Rei 3 learn a bit about compassion, but I think she's no more human than an EVA. Yes, she looks like Yui and has some of her DNA, but she is still an Eldritch Abomination. She's not evil or has any intention of harming anyone, but she can only try to mimic human behaviour, which she manages really poorly. :smallamused:
Kaworu manages a lot better, but I don't think the mind and thoughts of Rei 2 have any resemblance to a human mind. What interest she has in humans and the bit of kindness towards Shinji is probably just the result of humans being born from Lilith, but she's on a waaay higher level of consciousness.

That's also why the alternate reality vision in the last episode is so ****ed up. :smallbiggrin:

I disagree. First of all, where does it say she only has part of Yui's DNA? She has Lilith's soul, but that's all that's hinted in the actual series. She's human, in a very real way. So is Kaworu. The fact that there's a difference is important, but in normal activities Rei isn't mimicing human behavior, she's feeling it! She's human in emotion and action, she's just emotionally stunted. Kaworu isn't faking, either. Why else would he wish to die, then?

Furthermore, your statements about Rei's interest in humans is false, too. It's made explicitly clear in the episode with the 16th Angel that she wants Shinji. That way. It's said using the same term they always use to mean sex. That's no vague interest from a kindly mother-figure!

The whole point of the internal battle against the invading 16th Angel was that Rei has emotions, and that she's not good at understanding them. The 16th Angel, in its bitchy way, helps her realize her emotions. And so she acts, not in the "throw away my life because I can be replaced, and it doesn't matter" sense she did against the 14th Angel, but in the "I have to save Shinji!" sense. These are two wildly different reasons to try to sacrifice yourself. And trying to save the guy you like, and then later rejecting your boss to give the power to choose directly to that guy (well, presuming Rei III had at least some of the same memories. Otherwise there's no logical reason for her to do what she did, breaking Gendo's glasses and giving the power to Shinji) does not speak of inhuman emotions, but very, VERY human ones.

[druid91]

Which is exactly in keeping with the old mecha series themes: the mecha is first there to provide a crutch for the protagonist to develop, only to be discarded when they've grown sufficiently heroic and are ready to perform their greatest and most memorable accomplishments.


Which is wrong, Shinji started doing that stuff before he even knew about the mecha.

Then he got the mecha and used his success and influence it gained him to take that out of mecha success and turn it up to eleven.

Then he becomes a psyker, and they cross him with rei, and their "child" takes on an eva analogue with nothing more than a personal AT field and a miniaturized N2 mine. And wins.

[Tengu_temp]

I'm not a fan of Shinji and WH40K. Awesomeness needs to be presented well, you can't just pile on outrageous feats and expect the viewer to be impressed.

[BayardSPSR]

May I suggest that you add a spoiler box to your post, perhaps? The OP has not watched the series yet, I think ;)


:smallsmile: Thank you. I've learned to not open spoilers the hard way, after one stunning revelation that would have been more stunning had it been revealed to me as originally meant. Not on this thread, though, and for a webcomic, not NGE. Though I've had a few of those spoiled I wish I could unspoil, too...

However, everyone seems to be going into a broader discussion of the merits of the series, and my decision has been made, I will absent myself from this thread until I can comment with the same authority. Spoil away! :smallsmile:

[druid91]

I'm not a fan of Shinji and WH40K. Awesomeness needs to be presented well, you can't just pile on outrageous feats and expect the viewer to be impressed.

How is it not presented well??

It is not just a pile of outrageous feats. The only part I could really see that almost applying was shinji's trek around the world.

And subsequently showing up at tokyo-3 to take out the zombies with lemaan russ's and terminators.

[Dacia Brabant]

Really, I don't reject Evangelion for beind weird, or dark. I love dark and weird. I reject it because in the end, I got the feeling the makers weren't actually sure what they were doing and instead just threw random symbolism and conspiracies at us until something seemed to stick. If they had explained what the connection between angels and humans is, or the first impact, or EVAs, or the Spear of Longinus, or what exactly the grand plans where supposed to do in the first place, great. I'd have liked the show, no matter how weird the explanation.

This is one of NGE's biggest faults, no doubt, that the explanations are so oblique that you have to pay hyper-close attention and probably be told what/where to look for them. In the case of the connection between angels and humans, which is absolutely essential to understanding the climax of the series, well I'd better spoiler it:


In Episode 5, Ritsuko's examination concludes that angels and humans share 99.89% of the same genome. Then, much much later, in Episode 24 Kaworu/Tabris talks about how the angels ate the fruit of the Tree of Life to live forever, which contrasts with mankind eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. In Episode 25, Misato says that the 18th and final angel is the Lilim, mankind as a collective (and AT fields separate this collective into individual intelligences). And I think it was in End of Evangelion where angels were stated to be another evolutionary path that humans may have undertaken.

The upshot, given that the angels and humans are fighting over the stuff of creation itself (the bodies of Adam and Lilith, the first man and woman, from which angels, humans and EVAs were made), is that the genetic/evolutionary connection between the two follows from that theological/metaphysical connection. The angels' massive supernatural power, self-contained within their S^2 engines, stems from their "Tree of Life" origin, while humans' technological power, disseminated across a vast range of individuated minds, stems from its "Tree of Knowledge" origin, which is all to say that Adam and Lilith had different ways of going about the business of creating their children.


And I've a feeling this still won't make much sense.

[Eldan]

THat's another thing I dislike:

STOP IT WITH THE X% SAME GENOME!

We share 30% of our genome with a lettuce. Or at least, it's a number I once heard. It's a stupid comparison.

^: I got most of what you said. I still feel, however, that it was explained badly, and that there was more stuff to explain. It's been years since I saw it, however, so I can't actually go into details anymore to list what I thought should have been explained. Perhaps I'll watch the movies (EoE) sometime.

[Yora]

Why explain?

I think this is the biggest fault of Fantasy and supernatural Science Fiction. Everything needs to be completely explained. It completely removes the mystical element, which supposedly is the reason these genres exist.
Maybe there is a complete explaination for everything in Evangelion that can be uncovered if you carefully examine every small details of all the episodes and later material.
But the one thing that really sold me to Evangelion is that when you watch it the first time without consulting additional information, all you have is an idea what precisely had happened, but for now you have to accept that even to the protagonists, many things were left unanswered. And since we're all talking here about subbed or dubbed version and not the original japanese dialogs with all the pre-existing knowledge expected from a japanese audience, we have no means to really find out what the images and words were meant to be.

When I watched the episodes, I very much enjoyed it to see things from a perspective that doen't reveal everything and just having to accept that great things are happening that I don't completely understand.
Maybe there actually is a very clear and logical explaination for everything in Evangelion, but to me that would feel kinda cheap. Which is why I dislike the idea of additional movies and reboots that try to make things more clear.

[Lurkmoar]

When I watched the episodes, I very much enjoyed it to see things from a perspective that doen't reveal everything and just having to accept that great things are happening that I don't completely understand.
Maybe there actually is a very clear and logical explaination for everything in Evangelion, but to me that would feel kinda cheap. Which is why I dislike the idea of additional movies and reboots that try to make things more clear.

Some additional information about the series popped up in some Japanese only games. It seems to fit fairly well too, but good luck knowing if there's any cannon behind it.

Humanity was the last angel, and first impact was caused by some alien device, and Adam and Lilith weren't supposed to be at the same planet.

My beef with Evangelion is that the Anno seems to dislike his audience. And the bit with Shinji in the movie didn't go over too well. Just glad that I wasn't the one that bought the damn tapes.

[Eldan]

Gah.

I can't seem to express my opinion clearly, and I'm making a mess here.

Thinking about it again, I don't even know why I hate Evangelion so much. I love dark series, I love mystery, I love science fiction. I don't even want complete explanations everywhere, usually. And yet, the last two episodes of Evangelion annoy me more than anything else I've ever seen.

Perhaps not "explanation", then. "Closure". A consistent style.

I like symbolism and mysticism, but I only like them when I get the feeling that the authors actually knew what they were doing. I'm not convinced they actually did, in Evangelion. That's probably the problem.

[TheArsenal]

Ironically I find that after you explained the angels to me I found it...Underwhelming. I wish they remained a mystery. I liked them as a mysterious force better.

[Yora]

Humanity was the last angel, and first impact was caused by some alien device, and Adam and Lilith weren't supposed to be at the same planet.
I've read this explaination before, and I kinda like it.
Life on earth was an accident. Individual life forms were never supposed to happen. Now we have to clean up the mess and set things right. Sorry about the inconvencience.
Also,
isn't the final true state of humanity like the Shapeshifters in DS9? :smallbiggrin:

[Fan]

Gah.

I can't seem to express my opinion clearly, and I'm making a mess here.

Thinking about it again, I don't even know why I hate Evangelion so much. I love dark series, I love mystery, I love science fiction. I don't even want complete explanations everywhere, usually. And yet, the last two episodes of Evangelion annoy me more than anything else I've ever seen.

Perhaps not "explanation", then. "Closure". A consistent style.

I like symbolism and mysticism, but I only like them when I get the feeling that the authors actually knew what they were doing. I'm not convinced they actually did, in Evangelion. That's probably the problem.

Then watch EoE. If you want FINAL definite closure. You'll have it. I'm also pretty sure that there is someone who uploaded it on youtube (legality is questionable, but it's been there for YEARS.). I would warn you, but that's beating a dead horse's hamburger'd mess with a steam shovel.

[Lurkmoar]

Then watch EoE. If you want FINAL definite closure. You'll have it. I'm also pretty sure that there is someone who uploaded it on youtube (legality is questionable, but it's been there for YEARS.). I would warn you, but that's beating a dead horse's hamburger'd mess with a steam shovel.

I didn't get any closure from EoE. The closest I got was asking my female friend "What the hell just happened?"

She shrugged and said

"Shinji got to be God for five minutes. Too bad God was depressed."

Yora, I have no clue. Ah well, humanity got some nice group therapy I guess?

[Lord Seth]

Yeah, there wasn't any real closure in End of Evangelion. It had slightly more than the TV episode ending...but only slightly.

[Tengu_temp]

What's hard to understand about End of Evangelion?
Third Impact happens, all humans turn to Tang. Rei rebels against Gendou and decided to give Shinji control over it. Shinji gets an epiphany, decides that he wants to live with people, Third Impact stops. All humans can return back to their former selves if they wish. Shinji and Asuka emerge from the sea of LCL first.
How is that not a real closure?

[Lurkmoar]

How is that not a real closure?


It's not real closure for me partly because of some character derailment of Shinji's part. I understood what happened, after I watched it again a week later. But I felt unsatisfied. The tv ending ended on a strange, fridge horrorish yet happy ending. There was no clue about how Instrumentality played out.

The movie shows Instrumentality, however the ending didn't seem too rosy. I never understood the motivations of SEELE beyond 'mysterious council of strange guys' who play shadow chess with Gendou. Only I wasn't allowed to see the moves happen!

I suppose my thinking is that I didn't get told ahead of time that this was a deconstruction of the 'Real Robot' genre. I liked the episodic quality at first, and while I was a little annoyed at Shinji's angst, I thought it was understandable. His mom died when he was young, his dad abandoned him and then summoned him when he needed him. Alright, I can deal with that, I know what it's like to have a father that loves his job more then his family. Then the series focused more on the mental instabilities of the pilots...

I came for the robot fighting, not the emotional torque.

And the little what happened to the mouse questions. Like who shot Kaji? A nobody. Who came first Lilith or Adam? Did all of Shinji's classmates lose their mothers to an Evagelion unit? Mostly I was annoyed that a fair amount of material was released for a Japanese only game.

In a meta sense, Gainax hasn't had closure with Evagelion either, seeing as they're doing the remakes and the merchandise is still readily available.

Then I applied the MST3K and drank some Mountain Dew. We watched The Slumber Party Massacre after watching EoE and had a lot laughs.