PDA

View Full Version : Pathfinder and 3.5--Paladin



Callista
2011-02-06, 01:51 PM
So... I have some questions.

My group recently switched from 4th edition to Pathfinder. We tried 4th for a while and didn't like it, but the DM didn't want to switch to 3.5 again, so we compromised on Pathfinder. I am used to 3.5, know 4th edition moderately well, but have never played Pathfinder.

What does a newbie who is used to 3.5 (as in, eight years of experience) need to know about Pathfinder? Specifically, what does a newbie who is playing a paladin need to know about Pathfinder?

I need to convert a 4th edition paladin into Pathfinder... I know I'm not going to get the same abilities, and I'm going to end up with an unfortunate lack of Strength... I should probably just e-mail the DM and ask to rebuild with the same point-buy. Or, y'know, elite array, or something like that.

How's the Pathfinder paladin different from 3.5? What do I need to know that might not be obvious at first glance?

Thanks in advance.

Warclam
2011-02-06, 02:05 PM
Ooh, you're in for a treat if you're used to the 3.5 paladin. The Pathfinder paladin is quite a lot stronger.

I've never played either version, but I've spent a lot of time working with their mechanics for a homebrewed version, so I'll list a few big things I've noticed:
—Good will save! And since your spells are now also charisma-based, you can safely dump wisdom.
—Smite evil is vastly more powerful. It gives you an AC bonus in addition to attack, it activates as a swift action (so you can full attack with it), and it lasts until the enemy is dead or you rest and regain your daily uses.
—If you're only using detect evil on a single target, you can use it as a move action and skip all the way to stage three of the spell. Very helpful so you know who to smite, or just if someone's rubbing you the wrong way and you want to know if they're evil ASAP.
—You get a bunch of auras, all at the standard 10' radius. Some of them are pretty good, too (hello aura of justice!), so it's a good idea to stay near your allies so they can benefit.
—Healing is pretty different. You can't use lay on hands to heal precise integer quantities anymore, it's a big burst more like a haling spell. Same goes for turn undead channel positive energy, which is the same but in a burst. Mercies are kinda fun, too, though the odds that you'll have the right one for what ails your comrades aren't great.
—Oh yeah, turn undead is gone.
—Your mount doesn't suck! It's based on the animal companion, so it's decent in combat, and it seems like it sticks around indefinitely, so you can actually, y'know, ride it. You can also trade it for a weird weapon boost, don't know a lot about that.

EDIT: Stupid to forget this, but here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136890#post7607362) what Saph has to say about the issue (scroll down to paladins).

Arutema
2011-02-06, 03:14 PM
I need to convert a 4th edition paladin into Pathfinder... I know I'm not going to get the same abilities, and I'm going to end up with an unfortunate lack of Strength... I should probably just e-mail the DM and ask to rebuild with the same point-buy. Or, y'know, elite array, or something like that.



How's your Dex? Smite Evil works with ranged weapons in PF.

PinkysBrain
2011-02-06, 03:17 PM
The mounted archer is by far the most powerful martial option in PF (because of the absence of manyshot, and pounce at lower levels).

Akal Saris
2011-02-06, 03:57 PM
Well, unless your group actually needs somebody to be the mobile wall in front of the party.

(With that said, my PF paladin is an archer..)

PinkysBrain
2011-02-06, 04:47 PM
Since they nerfed the spiked chain, stand still and tripping the area control melee character doesn't really work any more in PF.

Grendus
2011-02-06, 05:14 PM
I know nothing about 4e, except that it's very different from 3.5. Since Paizo based Pathfinder on 3.5, I'm guessing it's going to be more of a conceptual copy rather than changing a few items.

Luckily, Pathfinder is under the OGL (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/) as well, which makes it so much easier. Basically, however, the 3.P paladin is a huge step up from the 3.5 paladin.

Starbuck_II
2011-02-06, 05:43 PM
I should note that while the class features of Pathfinder Pally are stronger the Code is stricter. Any violation in Pathfinder unlike only gross violations in 3.5 make you fall.

Arutema
2011-02-06, 05:49 PM
I should note that while the class features of Pathfinder Pally are stronger the Code is stricter. Any violation in Pathfinder unlike only gross violations in 3.5 make you fall.

The PF version of the code is somewhat less limiting however. For instance, it is now possible to work with evil associates for the greater good.

Callista
2011-02-06, 06:13 PM
Hmm... that *is* more strict. Interesting. So technically, she could lose her powers for telling a lie... Not that it would be her first impulse to do so, but she has on one occasion deliberately lied--the goal was to stop somebody torturing an ally, and I couldn't figure out any other way, so it was definitely a lesser-evil (or, more correctly, evil-or-chaos) situation.

It won't be a huge problem because my character is traveling with a cleric of the same deity and can get Atonement spells if necessary for minor violations.


A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.Looks to me like Pathfinder paladins will need regular Atonement spells--in a realistic world you will eventually encounter a choice between chaos and evil. Check out that bolded paragraph--you can't do all that stuff simultaneously, at least not with a character who has average intelligence and only moderately good Wisdom.

Could be interesting dynamic between my character and the cleric--the cleric in question would care much more about my paladin being dishonorable than he'd care about her doing something evil (he's LN and a generally honorable/disciplined sort), but of course the paladin's got those priorities the other way around and she'd be as dishonorable as she needed to be (but no more than needed). On top of that she's somewhat at odds with her deity at the moment... long story... Yeah. This is gonna get interesting. I'm going to have to be sure she can function without her powers, at least temporarily...

gorfnab
2011-02-06, 06:20 PM
This may be of use to you. Cryptic's Guide to Pathfinder Paladins (https://docs.google.com/View?id=dcrgj6j5_15cf2jkgfh)

Gnaeus
2011-02-06, 06:20 PM
One thing that isn't obvious is the improvement of one of the PRCs, Dragon Disciple. In PF, Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple can be quite impressive. I dunno if that is within your concept.

Callista
2011-02-06, 06:30 PM
One thing that isn't obvious is the improvement of one of the PRCs, Dragon Disciple. In PF, Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple can be quite impressive. I dunno if that is within your concept.
Depends.

The character's a paladin, but she feels more like an urban ranger, personality-wise. She used to be a city guardsman (read "cop") before being basically recruited by the church of Wee Jas, mostly against her will, though she agreed because she respects the goddess (and her ideals are very much line with a LG version of that church's dogma--respect for knowledge, being comfortable around magic, respect for the dead, and a healthy dose of charisma).

The character is big on the diplomacy, sense motive, intimidate--everything you need to keep a city safe and track down criminals. But there's the whole Wee Jas thing... and Wee Jas has a habit of just telling you what you're going to do, whether you like it or not, and my character has a habit of obeying authority (at least as long as they don't order her to go against her conscience). So... if it came down to it, and she found herself getting magical talent whether she liked it or not... yeah, that would be in-character, not so much for my character but for my character's deity.

Staying a paladin would work just as well, though, and there's the multiclassing thing to think about.

Gnaeus
2011-02-06, 07:29 PM
Staying a paladin would work just as well, though, and there's the multiclassing thing to think about.

Multiclassing doesn't hurt you in PF, you still take paladin as your favored class.

This is how I would do it (Comparison with Paladin)
1-4 Paladin
5 Sorcerer 1 (You lose about 3 hp, or 2 hp + 1 skill point, -1 bab, Divine Bond, -1 level 1 paladin spell (But gain 4 level 1 sorcerer spells). You gain 2 natural claw attacks, handy if you are ever disarmed. Your go-to spell is True Strike, which has no ASF, so you still wear your plate mail. You gain the ability to use arcane wands)
6 Dragon Disciple 1 (You lose a mercy and 1 more bab. You gain +1 natural armor)
7 DD 2 Now things are getting good (You lose your third smite per day, and probably 1 level 2 spell. You gain a natural bite attack, a level of sorcerer casting, +2 strength (making up for lost BAB) another +1 NA, Energy resist 5 to your energy type, and a free feat from a good list.)
8 DD3 (Lose aura of resolve, which is meh, and a level 2 spell. Gain another level of sorcerer, and a Xd6 breath weapon (X= Sorc+ DD levels).)
9 DD4 (Lose another mercy and level 1 paladin, spell. Gain a level of sorcerer, another +1 NA, your claws now count as magic weapons.
10 DD5 (Lose 1 BAB & a level 3 paladin spell. Gain Blindsense 30 & another free feat)
11 DD6 (Lose Aura of Justice & a level 3 paladin spell. Gain another Sorcerer level (for blindness, or blur, whichever you didn't have before), claw and bite damage increases, and a +2 con.)
12 DD7 (Lose a mercy and a level 2 paladin spell. Gain another Sorcerer level (level 3 sorc spells!), Dragon Form 1/day, another NA increase.)
13 DD8 (Lose a level 1 & 4 paladin spell, 5th smite evil. Gain a sorcerer level, another free feat, +2 int, Energy resistance +5 and +1 natural armor)
14 DD9 (Lose 1 BAB, Aura of Faith, 1 level 4 spell. Gain Wings for flight 60 at will.)
15 DD 10 (Lose a mercy and a 3rd level spell. Gain a level of Sorcerer (4th level Sorc spells!), Blindsense 60, Dragon Form 2/day).
Finish out w/ 5 more levels of paladin, or Sorcerer, or Eldrich knight, as you prefer. You can also enter with Paladin 2/Sorcerer 3, which is also good, although much less warriorish.

Throughout the process, the DD is weaker at healing than the Paladin, and weaker smiting, but higher AC, more HP (after L11) special abilities that solve many traditional tank problems (Blindsense, true strike, flight), 3 free feats (Power attack, improved Init & toughness or blind fighting?) and of course the ability to cast more spells from a better list, and use any sorc/wiz items. Form of the Dragon, while not awesome for a standard cloth caster, makes you into a supertank for 1 min/level once or twice per day.

Psyren
2011-02-06, 07:31 PM
EDIT: Stupid to forget this, but here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136890#post7607362) what Saph has to say about the issue (scroll down to paladins).

Emphasizing this in case it was missed. It'll come in handy for your whole group.


Since they nerfed the spiked chain, stand still and tripping the area control melee character doesn't really work any more in PF.

It does if you're a Soulknife. :smallamused:
And can't you just use a Guisarme instead? Martial, Reach, Trip - that's all you need right?

PinkysBrain
2011-02-06, 08:13 PM
And can't you just use a Guisarme instead? Martial, Reach, Trip - that's all you need right?
Yeah, you're right ... as long as you can make a 5 foot step.

I was mixing up the grapple nerf with the trip nerf.