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View Full Version : Screw the rules, I have money!



Jarian
2011-02-06, 04:45 PM
So, something I've been considering lately. We all know that WBL accounts for a massive amount of a character's power - but just how silly can it get?

For the purpose of this thought exercise, we have Common, a 1st level human Commoner with 10s in all stats. Common has just inherited the fortune of a lifetime - 500,000 gp! He's rich! Now, how can he become the ultimate 1st level character of all time?

Rules:

Common can swap his commoner level to a different base class for 50,000 gp.
No Pazuzu-Pazuzu-Pazuzu.
Infinite loops result in Common being formatted out of reality.
Candles of Invocation do too. Actually, any use of Wish, Limited Wish, Miracle, Alter Reality, etc, can't be used by Common.


Power is relative. Maybe Common obtains ultimate 1st level power through the ability to kill anything CR+3 he looks at. Maybe he can fast-talk his way out of anything. Maybe he can intimidate the king into giving him even MOAR TREASURE. Regardless, Common wants to be the very best at something! With money, anything is possible, right?

Siosilvar
2011-02-06, 04:49 PM
Most obvious: +30 item of Diplomacy.

30*30*100=90,000gp.

What does he do with the other 410,000gp? Something to ensure he doesn't get surprise-ganked. Given enough time, he can make anything a fanatic.

Round 1: Don't die. Full-round check to make that hostile thing over there unfriendly.
Round 2-4: Same as round 1, increasing attitude by another step each round.
Then take 20 to make them fanatic (since you can't reduce their attitude, this is probably legal).

Jarian
2011-02-06, 04:51 PM
Common can now bluff diplomance with the best of them, but is that really the ultimate first level character?

Siosilvar
2011-02-06, 04:54 PM
Common can now bluff with the best of them, but is that really the ultimate first level character?

Edited with some explanation.

EDIT: Maybe spend another 140,000 to be able to do it with animals and magical beasts, too. This one is very questionable though: Wild Empathy doesn't really count as a "skill".

Eldariel
2011-02-06, 04:55 PM
Custom items feel kinda meh; make it too easy. Just get +30 UMD, Circlet of Persuasion and +6 Cha and get some Scrolls of Shapechange and good stuff like that. You could also get him some extra HD if you felt like it (e.g. Awaken with Polymorph-line or just hired Inspiring Bard works) and he'll be a beast.

That said, just getting Shapechange and replicating every spell ever with the form shifts as Sus would prolly be sick enough to fulfill the goal of this thread. Hell, you can get a CL 25 Scroll of Shapechange en masse and profit. Being able to use Shapechange wins the game pretty hard.

vikingofdoom
2011-02-06, 04:55 PM
Simple, make the item intelligent, make it serve him, and have it cast spells to give him a boost to diplomacy.

Saph
2011-02-06, 04:55 PM
Well, my first instinct would be to spend 200k on a Belt of Magnificence (putting all Common's stats to 16s), another 50k on switching the Commoner class level to Druid (or something equally good), spending the remaining 250k to kit out his adventuring gear, then start riding the XP train to 20th-level. But that's more of a long-term plan.

Jarian
2011-02-06, 04:57 PM
Custom items feel kinda meh; make it too easy.

They really do. I was hoping for some more inspired responses than diplomancy or Shapechange abuse. Oh well. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2011-02-06, 04:59 PM
They really do. I was hoping for some more inspired responses than diplomancy or Shapechange abuse. Oh well. :smalltongue:

Sorry, I don't have much time so I can't put enough effort on this to come up with anything more esoteric. I'm sure someone will eventually tho.

dextercorvia
2011-02-06, 05:08 PM
Polymorph any Object at CL 37 (Gray Elf), 2960GP
Tome of Clear Thought +5, 137,500GP
Headband of Intellect +6, 36,000GP
Class Change (Elven Generalist Domain Wizard), 50,000GP

9th level spells at first level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9), Priceless

Edit: The other post says two flaws, it actually only needs one. Or you can use the guidelines to purchase one of the feats on an item. I think 10k was the rule of thumb.

Edit2: Nevermind no flaws necessary. See below.

Grendus
2011-02-06, 05:17 PM
Edited with some explanation.

EDIT: Maybe spend another 140,000 to be able to do it with animals and magical beasts, too. This one is very questionable though: Wild Empathy doesn't really count as a "skill".

Spend 50,000 gp to change your class to druid. Now it's a class feature, and you get an Animal Companion to boot.

Endarire
2011-02-06, 05:33 PM
Find a way for Common to become a Dark Necropolitan Whisper Gnome Factotum with Lifesight, Darkstalker, social skills, sneaking skills, Handle Animal, and whatever else you need.

400K can buy a lot of time stop and gate staff charges.

endoperez
2011-02-06, 06:30 PM
Something like Censer of Controlling Air Elementals for 100 000 gp lets him dominate everything for a long time, as long as he knows its coming. The rest of the money could be used for ensuring he knows if throuble's coming. However, let's assume Common wants to personally dispose of any opponents he might have, so instead you get something like this:


50 000 gp to change his class into a wizard or sorcerer.

Staff of Enchantment for 65,000 gp. You can now use Sleep, Hideous laughter and Suggestion at the cost of a single charge per casting at CL 13th. If something goes wrong, you can use the higher-level spells to save yourself.

Next, acquire Sword of Life Stealing for 25,715 gp. You can coup de grace the sleeping opponents. This is an automatic critical hit, so the sword activates: the opponent gets a negative level and you get 1d6 temporary hitpoints for 24 hours.
4 Gray Bags of Tricks, 900 gp each. That's 40 animals per week that you can harvest for temporary hitpoints. Common can summon four creatures at once, one from each bag, command them to stay in place, and cast Sleep on them. Since Common is now a wizard, he doesn't need to spend charges from his staff for this. That's an average of 10 extra hitpoints. You could do other stuff such as order the animals into cages in case saving against a spell makes them hostile.

Horn of Plenty provides Heroes' Feast 1/day for 12 000 gp. That includes 1d8+ temporary hp, immunity to poison and other fun stuff.

Add Headband of Intellect +6 (36,000 gp) and the Tome of Clear Thought +5 (137,500 gp) to secure career as an unreasonably tough wizard who refuses to give his staff to anyone.

That's perhaps 300 000 gp used.

Edit: Incidentally, that'd leave Common enough money to grab a Ring of Elemental Command (Fire). :P

dextercorvia
2011-02-06, 09:08 PM
My earlier suggestion doesn't require flaws (or buying custom items) after all. You begin as human, so take the feats Magical Training (Spont. version) and Versatile Spellcaster. When you PAO into an elf, you lose your Human Bonus feat which was Magical Training. Versatile Spellcaster is self supporting as far as prereqs go, so you are an Elven Generalist Domain Wizard with Versatile Spellcaster.

To spend more money... UMD item, Prayer Bead of Karma, Orange Ioun Stone, The +CL Ring from CArc, and maybe some metamagic rods.

Skeletor
2011-02-06, 09:10 PM
screw magical items and awesome loot. Buy a big house, buy lots of servants, invest the rest and live in posh luxury. Maybe hire some adventures to fetch you more stuff to sell.

Jarian
2011-02-06, 09:13 PM
screw magical items and awesome loot. Buy a big house, buy lots of servants, invest the rest and live in posh luxury. Maybe hire some adventures to fetch you more stuff to sell.

Growing old and fat in a life of peace does not, in fact, interest Common. He has hopes and dreams! Power, glory, rules abuse!

---

Now what can people do without polymorph/shapechange? Anything is possible with liberal abuse of broken spells, but I'd like to see more actual wealth abuse.

Skeletor
2011-02-06, 09:14 PM
Growing old and fat in a life of peace does not, in fact, interest Common. He has hopes and dreams! Power, glory, rules abuse!

---

Now what can people do without polymorph/shapechange? Anything is possible with liberal abuse of broken spells, but I'd like to see actual wealth abuse.

And if real life has taught me anything you only need money for that. my idea still stands!

dextercorvia
2011-02-06, 09:15 PM
Growing old and fat in a life of peace does not, in fact, interest Common. He has hopes and dreams! Power, glory, rules abuse!

---

Now what can people do without polymorph/shapechange? Anything is possible with liberal abuse of broken spells, but I'd like to see more actual wealth abuse.

I would argue that the best use of wealth is buying access to said broken spells...

Jarian
2011-02-06, 09:18 PM
I would argue that the best use of wealth is buying access to said broken spells...

Perhaps. But once you prove you can get access to 9th level spells via PaO, everything else sort of becomes irrelevant.

dextercorvia
2011-02-06, 09:30 PM
That can be done w/o PAO if Common can just start as any PHB race.

Probably the next best thing would be a staff with Greater Planar Binding,Magic Circle against X, Dimensional Anchor, and a Scroll of Simulacrum.

Randel
2011-02-06, 09:45 PM
First, use some of that money to cheat death (either have a Clone made or have a system set up where he can be raised from the dead). Reincarnate could be used to return him to youth before he dies of old age.

Then invest more money into an item of diplomacy so he can diplomance his way past any high level threats that want to kill him and take his stuff.

Class change into something, possibly a Dread Necromancer with Tomb Tainted Soul so he can heal himself at-will. Since Charisma is a DNs casting stat, he can get a charisma boosting item that helps both casting and Diplomancy. Any levels he takes after that can be in whatever class he wants. Or he could go full Dread Necromancer to get a phylactory and become a Lich.

Now that he has a relatively stable path to immortality, he can spend all the rest of that money on building castles or dungeons or outfitting adventurers. Make sure that money is invested so that it brings in more money... its physically impossible to have too much money (wait, scratch that... its impossible to have enough money!). Use the Business rules in the PHB II (or is that the Dungeon Masters guide 2?) to create a business that always profits (which I suppose is a shack in the middle of nowhere that sells wood to fire elementals that randomly teleport in... I suppose if the plane of fire is infinite in all dimensions and some elementals can plane shift than an infinite number of fire elementals would be plane shifting into any given random location in the Prime Material. Thus, if you sell then wood then the infindicimal number of them that carry gold will pay you red hot blobs of molten gold for firewood. Profit!).

If business rules are strange then start making Distilled Joy factories, make iron walls to melt into metal and have artisans craft it into masterwork weapons, have druids cast plant growth on super-rich fields, make Create Food and Water traps and start a fast food chain or generally do stuff to make cash.

Then with immortality and a steady source of income, use money to bribe whoever is around you to do whatever you want (maybe take over the world through a magiteck megacorp?). Make sure to roleplay alot to get plenty of roleplaying experience to level up.

Or if you are feeling really cheesy, use your vast investments to get lots of wealth and create a huge popularity campaign. Let everyone see your face, give money to charities, bribe all the goblins with cash and diplomance them to be fanaticly nice to humans, donate to churches, get all adventurers to work for you, and basically make everyone fanatically devoted to you.

Then their combined faith turns you into a Deity... maybe the God of screwing the rules with money.

Siosilvar
2011-02-06, 10:13 PM
Spend 50,000 gp to change your class to druid. Now it's a class feature, and you get an Animal Companion to boot.

That was included in the 140k figure. 50,000 Ranger/Druid + 90,000 for another +30 item.

Wild Empathy isn't a skill, though, so by strictest RAW that allows custom magic items (i.e. following the guidelines to the letter) it's illegal.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-02-06, 10:30 PM
You've got more than enough cash to buy an item with 1/day Wall of Iron on it with a CL of 20... now look up how much iron weighs, how large the wall at that level is, and the fact that iron is a trade good worth 1sp/lb.

Now you have a continuing source of money. Cash flow > lump sum

Dr Bwaa
2011-02-06, 11:57 PM
You've got more than enough cash to buy an item with 1/day Wall of Iron on it with a CL of 20... now look up how much iron weighs, how large the wall at that level is, and the fact that iron is a trade good worth 1sp/lb.

Now you have a continuing source of money. Cash flow > lump sum

Given some time, you also have a castle. Castle Flow > Lump of Iron (or something; give me a break :smalltongue:)

Flickerdart
2011-02-07, 12:03 AM
The Cube costs something like 200k, I think.

faceroll
2011-02-07, 01:47 AM
Custom items feel kinda meh; make it too easy. Just get +30 UMD, Circlet of Persuasion and +6 Cha and get some Scrolls of Shapechange and good stuff like that. You could also get him some extra HD if you felt like it (e.g. Awaken with Polymorph-line or just hired Inspiring Bard works) and he'll be a beast.

That said, just getting Shapechange and replicating every spell ever with the form shifts as Sus would prolly be sick enough to fulfill the goal of this thread. Hell, you can get a CL 25 Scroll of Shapechange en masse and profit. Being able to use Shapechange wins the game pretty hard.

There aren't that many fierce 1 HD creatures out there, are there?

JaronK
2011-02-07, 04:37 AM
Stupid version: first, common does the diplomacy thing. Maybe a little more so by using different bonus types... one item gives insight, one gives sacred, etc. Now, Common hires Maug Wizards. Those run at something like 45gp a day for a level 20 Wizard. Since you can get any class this way, he's going to get 1000 Wizards, 1000 Clerics, and 1000 Archivists, all level 20. Next, Common uses diplomacy to make them into fanatical followers.

Next, he's going to use the Warbeast rules to buy 3000 T-Rexes. They're shockingly cheap as well.

Now Common runs a horde of level 20 fanatical T1 classes riding dinosaurs. No, the dinosaurs aren't critical, they're just awesome. ...game, set, match.

JaronK

Tyndmyr
2011-02-07, 09:07 AM
Well, my first instinct would be to spend 200k on a Belt of Magnificence (putting all Common's stats to 16s), another 50k on switching the Commoner class level to Druid (or something equally good), spending the remaining 250k to kit out his adventuring gear, then start riding the XP train to 20th-level. But that's more of a long-term plan.

This is what I, as a player, would actually do. He'd be kitted out well enough to utterly steamroll level equivalent encounters for quite a while. Therefore, I'd pick wizard. You can safely make it through the levels in which survival is actually a challenge. Plus, abrupt jaunt is awesome.

Now, with an actual decent PC class, solid stats, and a pile of money, I'd tend to dump the rest on inexpensive items that'll extend his endurance. Say, Belts of Healing along with a couple of potions, to mitigate hp loss. Hand of the Mage for utility. A Handy Haversack. Let's toss in an orange ioun stone as well. I'm tempted to add ioun stones, specifically the lavender and green one. However, we're going to dump a substantial amount of wealth on Eternal wands of x, where X is a third level spell or less.

Why? First off, you can explicitly use those without any prereq. So, he can be casting fireball and Cure Serious Wounds at first level. Dump about 100k into these. We should be able to have him hit fifth level by the end of the first day. After all, fireballing one group of CR 1 mobs is a crapton of xp for a level 1 player, and there is essentially no risk of any survivors.

Secondly, no matter how much you use them, there's no value loss. So, when the fireball wands are outleveled, he can sell them off to reuse half the gold for something still relevant.

I figure I could probably get him to 20th level by the end of a week.

Greenish
2011-02-07, 10:31 AM
The Cube costs something like 200k, I think.Seems we have the winner, then.

The Glyphstone
2011-02-07, 10:36 AM
Common doesn't spend any of it, except to buy a dark cloak. He then sits in the corner of a tavern, offering high-level adventuring parties absurd sums of money to to retrieve seemingly inconsequential objects for him from dangerous dungeons. As a quest-giver, they will naturally assume he is an epic wizard or something and not attack him - from anyone else, his safety is assured due to having all those high-level adventurers on his payroll. meanwhile, he lives in a small house on a frugal budget for a long, comfortable life.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-07, 10:59 AM
Hire a 12th level wizard to cast Wall of Salt four times. You now have slightly under 1,000,000 GP more, if I did my math right. Now, just get a use-activated CL 20 ring of casting Mind Rape for about 360,000. Use other walls or creation spells, or just Mind Rape to fund your magic item set, I'd get a use-activate Belt of Shapechange, an anything of PaO, Greater Teleport. Then get all of the useful Epic wondrous items and rings, like ring of sequestering. Maybe get the wizards to enchant your actual body parts, if that would work, so you can't lose them. With the +12 items and the +5 tomes, you are nearly a god on earth compared to almost anyone else. Then find a decent Fey, something like a Nymph for good abilities and Divine Grace, and get a something of True Mind Switch, which you should probably do before reading the tomes, turn your body into a rat, put it into Quintessence, take the feat Assume SU, and now you are immortal, then PaO and Mindrape to make a huge army, or just chill knowing you are greater than almost anything. Just make sure to get an absolutely huge, unwaveringly loyal, high-leveled group of Casters to go kill off or Mind Rape all other casters into servitude.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2011-02-07, 01:35 PM
This might be silly but ... just trip out a stronghold. Make everything defensive-only so only the most aggressive (read none) of the paranoid spellcasters would bother with it. Finding floating castles in demiplanes is ... difficult.

And that spell slot abuse. I like it. Much closer than the heighten spell attempts. Still the "so EGW moves your floating slot to 2nd" part is a bit weak imo.

Vance_Nevada
2011-02-07, 02:02 PM
Hire a 12th level wizard to cast Wall of Salt four times. You now have slightly under 1,000,000 GP more, if I did my math right.

Query: If the wizard can produce this much money worth in salt, how are you hiring him? What does he need your money for?

Or did the Commoner with 10 Intelligence think up a plan a 12th level wizard couldn't have?

Tyndmyr
2011-02-07, 02:46 PM
I feel any infinite money exploits sorta ignore the spirit of the challenge. After all, it's basically like wishing for more wishes.

Coidzor
2011-02-07, 03:31 PM
Lyre of Building + Warforged hireling + 1/day item of Geas + Custom Item of Perform + The Cube = invincible construction firm.

Because he wants to rebuild the world. In his image. Or something.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-07, 09:23 PM
Query: If the wizard can produce this much money worth in salt, how are you hiring him? What does he need your money for?

Or did the Commoner with 10 Intelligence think up a plan a 12th level wizard couldn't have?

Of course! Didn't a college student solve four or more "unsolvable" proofs?

Jarian
2011-02-07, 09:41 PM
Using your money to make more money so you can buy more expensive stuff defeats the whole purpose of the thought exercise. If I had meant to say "here, Common has infinite money, go buy whatever you want" I think I would have said that.

Also, what can you do without hiring spellcasting services? We've already established godhood through spells, now what's the best 1st level filthy rich character without them?

Edit: Also without UMDing the spells yourself.

Coidzor
2011-02-07, 11:53 PM
Using your money to make more money so you can buy more expensive stuff defeats the whole purpose of the thought exercise.

Money begets money. You basically have to set out to waste money to lose it after you get above a certain point.

The player mindset is very much one of reinvestment, as well.


Also, what can you do without hiring spellcasting services? We've already established godhood through spells, now what's the best 1st level filthy rich character without them?

You mean taking away the foundation of what makes D&D what it is. Well, you lose most of the inherently interesting things.

Without magic there's what, special materials, traps, poisons, and "beg the DM to approve" rube goldberg machines which might just fall under traps again anyway, that we have to work with?

And you've disqualified becoming the best X ever as a goal by disallowing adventuring or any other real route of leveling up by saying that one can't have any way to use one's money to make more money...

Jarian
2011-02-07, 11:58 PM
Money begets money. You basically have to set out to waste money to lose it after you get above a certain point.

The player mindset is very much one of reinvestment, as well.

And that's a reason to ignore a gp limitation on a thought exercise because...?




You mean taking away the foundation of what makes D&D what it is. Well, you lose most of the inherently interesting things.

Without magic there's what, special materials, traps, poisons, and "beg the DM to approve" rube goldberg machines which might just fall under traps again anyway, that we have to work with?

Really.

Really.

By defining the parameters of the thought exercise to not include spellcasting, so you can't polymorph yourself into nigh-divinity, it's removed all interesting aspects of the game?




And you've disqualified becoming the best X ever as a goal by disallowing adventuring or any other real route of leveling up by saying that one can't have any way to use one's money to make more money...

The intent was never to levelup. It was to see what people could do with a 1HD commoner and 500,000 gp. Apparently that answer is "attain godhood with spells". So, short of that, what other interesting things can people do?

faceroll
2011-02-08, 12:04 AM
You mean taking away the foundation of what makes D&D what it is. Well, you lose most of the inherently interesting things.

Without magic there's what, special materials, traps, poisons, and "beg the DM to approve" rube goldberg machines which might just fall under traps again anyway, that we have to work with?

And you've disqualified becoming the best X ever as a goal by disallowing adventuring or any other real route of leveling up by saying that one can't have any way to use one's money to make more money...

Bit o' straw here, me thinks. And it looks to be shaped in a sort of man-like form....

She said spellcasting, not all magic.

Coidzor
2011-02-08, 12:10 AM
And that's a reason to ignore a gp limitation on a thought exercise because...?

Because most of them don't ignore the wealth limitation in their genesis but inevitably will go over it due to gaining even a single cp through doing any action appeared to be what you were complaining about since aside from the occasional person being cute the thread was moving on from that anyway.


Really.

Really.

By defining the parameters of the thought exercise to not include spellcasting, so you can't polymorph yourself into nigh-divinity, it's removed all interesting aspects of the game?

You appeared to be disallowing magic, as I said, with your most recent complaint.


The intent was never to levelup. It was to see what people could do with a 1HD commoner and 500,000 gp. Apparently that answer is "attain godhood with spells". So, short of that, what other interesting things can people do?

Ah, so you just ignored the ones that didn't please you, then.

I suggested using a lyre of building and an entity that requires neither rest nor food (since we can't just be one ourselves due to your earlier complaint about polymorph being brought up for cheese. Which is just odd in and of itself since this thought experiment is cheesy in and of itself.) to reshape the plane into one's likeness.

You asked for the character to have a goal as well. Beyond just the build of what kinda **** this guy can get up to. Which is going to either involve building something which automatically violates your wealth proviso or leveling up in order to become the "best" at something.


She said spellcasting, not all magic.

She seemed to be stating "no emulating spellcasting either." Which does rule out quite a bit of magical items.

edit: And she literally said "Spells," not spellcasting. Which rules out even more magic items.

So, excuse me for taking Jarian literally if I misunderstood her true meaning.

Jarian
2011-02-08, 12:23 AM
Also, what can you do without hiring spellcasting services? We've already established godhood through spells, now what's the best 1st level filthy rich character without them?

Edit: Also without UMDing the spells yourself.

I'm really not sure where you got the idea that all magic was off limits from, but it wasn't intended.


(since we can't just be one ourselves due to your earlier complaint about polymorph being brought up for cheese. Which is just odd in and of itself since this thought experiment is cheesy in and of itself.)

Okay, so PaO et al are back on the table. We can now do anything we want, emulating 20th level casting and everything. Wealth spent? A couple thousand gp.

That doesn't seem to ruin the intent of the exercise to you?

dextercorvia
2011-02-08, 09:48 AM
I think the problem is that Magic is the most powerful thing in D&D (except possibly Pun-Pun -- though Pun-Pun wouldn't work without magic. So, in any thread where somebody says, "You have a Bajillion X. Break it. No Pun-Pun." the first and probably best thing anybody is going to try is, "How much magic can I get for a Bajillion X?"

So, no UMD? No hiring Spellcasting? No Polymorph?

Switch to Cleric with Magic Domain. 50,000
Con Manual, Wis Manual +4, 220,000
+6 Con, Wisdom item, 72,000
Wand of Empowered False Life CL 10,
Staff of Superior Resistance,
Staff of Overland Flight CL 12,
Robe with Armor Enchantment +8
Wand of Magic Vestment
Amulet of Natural Armor

Would be a good start to an adventuring career.