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Otherworld Odd
2011-02-06, 06:29 PM
Long story short: One of my players wants to play a ranger without spellcasting. Seeing as the ranger variant that allows wildshape is lame, as well as the one that gets rid of spellcasting I was thinking of this.


Would it be broken to give her the PHBII Shapeshifting (Druid variant) in exchange for her (animal companion-or-combat style feats) and her ranger spellcasting?

Going further, would it be broken to allow wild shape feats to be taken?


Also, any recommendations for character advancement? She knows she wants to do something with animals (either controlling them or turning into them.)

Grim Reader
2011-02-06, 07:08 PM
It'd be a nerf. Which the Ranger doesn't need much.

Use Unearthened Aracnas Wildshaping Ranger, which trades cobat style for +10 movement, and a size-restricted version of normal Wildshape. Note that this version often goes straight into Master of Many Forms. Which is OK for a melee class, really.

Otherworld Odd
2011-02-06, 07:28 PM
It'd be a nerf. Which the Ranger doesn't need much.

Use Unearthened Aracnas Wildshaping Ranger, which trades cobat style for +10 movement, and a size-restricted version of normal Wildshape. Note that this version often goes straight into Master of Many Forms. Which is OK for a melee class, really.

I saw that one too but I think she didn't like how it imposes a size restriction.

Urpriest
2011-02-06, 07:31 PM
I saw that one too but I think she didn't like how it imposes a size restriction.

Then she won't like how Shapeshift Druid imposes a size and type of creature restriction.

Otherworld Odd
2011-02-06, 07:40 PM
I guess what I'm really trying to ask is there any way I can help her out by getting rid of ranger spellcasting (she doesn't like spells) and make her more animal based as a ranger without severely nerfing her.

Quietus
2011-02-06, 07:58 PM
Taking Wildshape Ranger to 5th and then immediately going into Master of Many Forms (Complete Adventurer) will actually get you Large size wildshapes *sooner* than straight Druid, as well as giving you more Wild Shapes per day, and a wider selection of types to choose from. For someone who wants a melee-focused shapeshifter, this is the route I'd take. Probably follow MoMF with Warshaper (Complete Warrior) for some stat buffs and immunity to criticals.

::Edit:: I just checked, Complete Warrior's "Spell-less ranger" variant only kicks in at 6th, giving a +10 base land speed. I don't think it'd be unreasonable, however, to let her gain a Fighter bonus feat at level 4 in place of spellcasting?

tyckspoon
2011-02-06, 08:04 PM
Sure. Give her full animal companion progression like the Druid, and give her a bonus feat at every level where she would have gotten a new level of spells. The animal companion thing just ought to be done, and the bonus feats are (one of) the official Spell-less Ranger variant in one of the books or another. It's still an overall nerf, because the expanded Ranger spell list is actually pretty awesome, but it's an easy change to make and it's fairly useful if you have a player who wasn't going to make good use of spells to start with. Maybe show her the Animal Lord and Beastmaster prestige classes from Complete Adventurer.

Otherworld Odd
2011-02-06, 08:06 PM
Taking Wildshape Ranger to 5th and then immediately going into Master of Many Forms (Complete Adventurer) will actually get you Large size wildshapes *sooner* than straight Druid, as well as giving you more Wild Shapes per day, and a wider selection of types to choose from. For someone who wants a melee-focused shapeshifter, this is the route I'd take. Probably follow MoMF with Warshaper (Complete Warrior) for some stat buffs and immunity to criticals.

::Edit:: I just checked, Complete Warrior's "Spell-less ranger" variant only kicks in at 6th, giving a +10 base land speed. I don't think it'd be unreasonable, however, to let her gain a Fighter bonus feat at level 4 in place of spellcasting?

This actually sounds pretty good. I'll run it by her and see what she thinks but I'm sure she'll be happy with it. If not, I don't think there's anything else I could do besides tell her to pick something different to do. Lol. Thanks tons. =].



Sure. Give her full animal companion progression like the Druid, and give her a bonus feat at every level where she would have gotten a new level of spells. The animal companion thing just ought to be done, and the bonus feats are (one of) the official Spell-less Ranger variant in one of the books or another. It's still an overall nerf, because the expanded Ranger spell list is actually pretty awesome, but it's an easy change to make and it's fairly useful if you have a player who wasn't going to make good use of spells to start with. Maybe show her the Animal Lord and Beastmaster prestige classes from Complete Adventurer.


Edit: She was actually looking at Animal Lord. I'll run this by her as well to give her more options. =]. Thanks to you too!

Darrin
2011-02-06, 08:19 PM
I guess what I'm really trying to ask is there any way I can help her out by getting rid of ranger spellcasting (she doesn't like spells) and make her more animal based as a ranger without severely nerfing her.

There is a non-spellcasting Ranger ACF in Complete Champion: Trade your spells for bonus feats at 4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th level.

The other concern is the Ranger's animal companion progresses very slowly. You can trade the weaker animal companion for the Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII), and then get a much stronger animal companion by going into the Beastmaster PrC or picking up the Wild Cohort feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). The Silverwood Outrider (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031202a) PrC helps beef up the Wild Cohort a bit.

Pechvarry
2011-02-06, 08:58 PM
Good Wildshape forms are way more annoying than choosing spells and dictating their effects.

I intend to (have not yet tested) replace Wildshape rangers with the Shapeshift variant. I intend to have players trade out combat style and favored enemy progression for it, so they can still have an animal companion.

tyckspoon
2011-02-06, 09:12 PM
I intend to (have not yet tested) replace Wildshape rangers with the Shapeshift variant. I intend to have players trade out combat style and favored enemy progression for it, so they can still have an animal companion.

That seems like an excessive nerf to me, considering the loss of equipment. The flight speed from Aerial Form is pretty cool, but in everything else, you'd be better off with magic items and hitting stuff normally.

Pechvarry
2011-02-06, 10:00 PM
I don't see why. Many DMs already make druids use the shapeshifting variant. And said variant has unlimited uses/day, so it's not like a Ranger would actually need weapon styles. So it makes more sense to lose it instead of animal companion.

tyckspoon
2011-02-06, 10:09 PM
I don't see why. Many DMs already make druids use the shapeshifting variant. And said variant has unlimited uses/day, so it's not like a Ranger would actually need weapon styles. So it makes more sense to lose it instead of animal companion.

Because the Shapeshift forms kinda suck. They're ok on a Druid, because nerfing a Druid helps balance the game overall- Druids still have spells when the Shapeshift forms aren't good enough. Rangers are supposed to make their combat contributions either by shooting things or hitting things. If they're shapeshifting, shooting is obviously out. So compare shapeshifting to hitting things. Using the Shapeshift form will be at best even to and usually worse than staying in humanoid form and just hitting stuff with weapons; it doesn't even need to be especially well optimized. Pulling weapon style and especially favored enemy for a nerf? Rotten, rotten trade.

9mm
2011-02-06, 11:31 PM
I guess what I'm really trying to ask is there any way I can help her out by getting rid of ranger spellcasting (she doesn't like spells) and make her more animal based as a ranger without severely nerfing her.

Pathfinder Skirmisher variant, kills Spellcasting for special tricks. APG

Grim Reader
2011-02-07, 01:13 AM
I don't see why. Many DMs already make druids use the shapeshifting variant. And said variant has unlimited uses/day, so it's not like a Ranger would actually need weapon styles. So it makes more sense to lose it instead of animal companion.

Druids are full casters.

And they have a much better animal companion than the Ranger. Wildshape just made them able to melee well to, so they got the Shapeshift version to nerf their melee capability. They are still well above the normal melee clasess. But if you nerf the Rangers melee capability, he has nothing left.

MeeposFire
2011-02-07, 01:21 AM
I don't see why. Many DMs already make druids use the shapeshifting variant. And said variant has unlimited uses/day, so it's not like a Ranger would actually need weapon styles. So it makes more sense to lose it instead of animal companion.

I think it would be better to develop a wild fighting style that gives them bonus feats based on natural attacks. For instance multiattack, power attack, and others.

Pechvarry
2011-02-07, 12:23 PM
I like the size of the shapeshifter bonuses, and if they're weak compared to Wild Shape, then Wild Shape is too much for our game. Versatility of the Tier system aside, if you have twice as much attack bonus as the "normal" melee in the party, the DM has to work hard to challenge you without destroying the party.

Not to mention the bookkeeping. We have a hard enough time just looking up a spell if we don't have the specifics written down. If you don't want to keep track of spells, I don't see how anyone cuold call Wild Shape as a good thing.

If it helps defend my position at all, I also buff Ranger in other ways (they can choose Int or Wis for casting stat, full growth animal companion). One thing that sticks out to me right now is the Monk problem with natural attacks. I'll probably let them "meld" with a chosen weapon when they shapeshift to imbue their natural attacks. Also, anything called a Druid is actually a Spirit Shaman or Shapeshift Ranger.


I think it would be better to develop a wild fighting style that gives them bonus feats based on natural attacks. For instance multiattack, power attack, and others.

If anyone else is considering the easier shapeshift variant for Ranger but doesn't like my nerfs, consider having them lose only Favored Enemy and changing out their fighting style feats for 3 "your choice of 3 Wild or shapeshifting-focused feats at the indicated levels." You can even give them fast movement, as with the UA Wildshape variant.