Which are cooler: Dwarves or Elves? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

The Vorpal Tribble

2011-02-06, 08:23 PM

We talking mythological wise? In D&D? Films?

Meh, either way I'm tired of elves nancying about and being made out as these perfect immortal creatures of beauty that humans will never measure up to, blah blah blah. That and the annoying fandom and 30 different variations.

In my homebrew setting I have 5 types of dwarves, one of which lives in an eternally roaming mountain that straddles both the spirit world and the living. Elves never existed. Make a wild guess which I find more interesting :smallamused:

Now, dwarves in my world have nothing to do with beer or axes.

Edit: And yes, Elves DO cause cancer. Brain cancer. Amusing as that was though, these D&D parodies in ugly basement rooms always depress me.

DueceEsMachine

2011-02-06, 08:28 PM

My wife absolutely abhors dwarves.

I think they're awesome, so you can imagine how difficult it is trying to get her to Dm a game with me as a dwarf Pc. We did it once, and her compromise was to make a very small population of dwarves the last remaining members of a slave race... to the elves.

Yeah. definitely intersting, but a vote either way, I guess.

rayne_dragon

2011-02-06, 08:33 PM

Well this is obvious a question that deserves long and careful deliberation... oh, who am I kidding? The answer is obvious:

Dragons. Rawr!

Fox Box Socks

2011-02-06, 08:49 PM

Githzerai.

Drakonzeta

2011-02-06, 08:51 PM

mmmm......
Half-dragon elves.

Barbin

2011-02-06, 08:56 PM

Dwarves. They are just so loveable and badass! Plus I prefer voluptuous women.

Dallas-Dakota

2011-02-06, 09:00 PM

Dwarves, always.

wxdruid

2011-02-06, 09:04 PM

I vote elves. My very first character was an elven magic user.

Jallorn

2011-02-06, 09:08 PM

Gnomes.

But in all seriousness I could go either way, they're both really awesome. If I absolutely had to pick, probably elves as I thought they were awesome first.

Lord Raziere

2011-02-06, 09:54 PM

Dwarves. All the way.

Klose_the_Sith

2011-02-06, 10:21 PM

*Looks at Warhammer Fantasy army of Dwarf redcoats, with various British trappings and rum instead of ale*

...

I vote those guys :smallbiggrin:

Ragitsu

2011-02-06, 10:30 PM

these D&D parodies in ugly basement rooms always depress me.

When did you change from Monster Designer to Interior Decorator?

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2011-02-06, 10:30 PM

Elves (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4CvwBGniCOwJ:df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Cacame_Awemedinade+cacame+awenmidade&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=pe&source=www.google.com.pe)

I didn't read the rest of the thread.

But you convinced me. I just typed that voncinced. Yay.

Edit: Ok, Dwarves as a race are cooler. But this one elf is a beast.

The Vorpal Tribble

2011-02-06, 10:38 PM

When did you change from Monster Designer to Interior Decorator?
Cross-class, baby :smallwink:

Seriously though, those ain't scrounging, just-out-of-high-school kids. My computer/reading room in my apartment first week out of my parent's place years on back...
https://s-hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs154.snc1/5760_132895271795_611791795_3313337_2704037_n.jpg

Ragitsu

2011-02-06, 10:40 PM

Cross-class, baby :smallwink:

Seriously though, those ain't scrounging just out of high school kids. My computer/reading room in my apartment first week out of my parent's place years on back...
https://s-hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs154.snc1/5760_132895271795_611791795_3313337_2704037_n.jpg

Looks okay to me, but I know some folks would call that "ugly". Taste is so very subjective...

C'est la vie.

The Vorpal Tribble

2011-02-06, 10:45 PM

Worn plaid couch in a bare brown-walled room with some cheap plastic-framed post of a rock band or something the only decoration?

I watch these films and I can't help but imagine my throat closing up to the smell of dust and mushrooms.

I didn't live in the ritz, but c'mon.

Coidzor

2011-02-06, 11:00 PM

Well, Dwarves are basically concentrated packages of a mixture between Scotsmen and Norsemen. (So basically the Northern and Coastal Scots, but I digress...)

So like, Viking Concentrate. Just add booze and stir. :smallbiggrin:

GenericGuy

2011-02-06, 11:13 PM

When elves are superior to humans they’re annoying moralizing god-mode sues.:smallannoyed:

When they are inferior to humans they’re annoying moralizing pity me purity sues.:smallfurious:

Dwarves are always just those guys who want have beer with you and will always help you kill an Evil overlord, so long as you can make those damn elves shut up for five seconds.:smallcool:

Any questions?:smalltongue:

Cealocanth

2011-02-06, 11:18 PM

In my campaign, I work to make dwarves less human because their character and cliche personality is fun and useful. I work to increase that fun inhumanity.

Elves I try to make more human, because their whiny perfection is annoying. All elves in my campaign are outcasts or normal people of a sort, because otherwise they're just boring cut-and-paste characters.

I prefer dwarves, any questions?

Moff Chumley

2011-02-06, 11:22 PM

Dwarves. Next!

Remmirath

2011-02-06, 11:25 PM

I've always preferred elves, but not the flighty prancing-in-flowers kind you sometimes see (or the 'we're better than you' kind, or the downtrodden kind). I'm sort of picky about my elves. Warlike and with interesting non-forest oriented cultures is how I prefer them, I suppose.

I don't have a problem with dwarves, but they just usually don't seem that interesting to me. I'm honestly not sure why I don't like dwarves much. Maybe I simply dislike beards? (I do, but it's got to be more than that). They just seem... boring. I can't point out why. I like the whole living in carved stone caverns and crafting cool things a lot part that's normally in there, but that's about it.

Trog

2011-02-06, 11:41 PM

Elves have hotter chicks. Gonna go with elves. :smallwink:

GenericGuy

2011-02-07, 12:02 AM

Elves have hotter chicks. Gonna go with elves. :smallwink:

I prefer girls who wouldn’t snap like twig because of a strong breeze; but in seriousness I’ve seen plenty of artwork with sexy female Dwarves, and even Orcs, that are much hotter than any Elf.:smallbiggrin:

The Vorpal Tribble

2011-02-07, 12:02 AM

Elves have hotter chicks.
I'd say you had a point... but how do you know when you have a chick? Eh?

Trog

2011-02-07, 12:08 AM

I'd say you had a point... but how do you know when you have a chick? Eh?

*A troglodyte wanders in and pulls out the chart and pointer. Looks suspiciously at the forum rules and turns chart away from the reader.*

A very good question. The key is to look for the tell-tale signs.

*Unfurls chart and points to various areas*

As you can see the elf chick is always much more scantily clad than the elf dude. Mainly due the elf dude's sunken chest and scrawny limbs. No one wants to see that, frankly.

Also, note the bewbs. *pointpoint*

userpay

2011-02-07, 12:12 AM

Elves have hotter chicks. Gonna go with elves. :smallwink:

Magma will fix that.

Anyway dwarves biiig time, though I might be a tad biased since I played Dwarf Fortress long before I started dnding.

Lord Raziere

2011-02-07, 12:15 AM

GenericGuy

2011-02-07, 12:20 AM

ya, agreed. I'm pretty sure I've seen a some online comic strip of Dragon Age about a cute dwarf or something.

Is this her? http://aimo.deviantart.com/ if so then yes she is a pretty adorable Dwarf.:smallwink:

Lord Raziere

2011-02-07, 12:38 AM

looks lot like her, did definitely have short hair like that....but the comic I remember her in she was protesting against how Alistair noticed that she was a dwarf more than that she was a woman or something.

oh wait....its Lady Aeducan so yea, its her, thats the dwarf I remember.

AsteriskAmp

2011-02-07, 01:18 AM

Magma will fix that.

Anyway dwarves biiig time, though I might be a tad biased since I played Dwarf Fortress long before I started dnding.

There are no dwarves in Dwarf Fortress, there are, however dorfs.

junglesteve

2011-02-07, 01:21 AM

DWARVES! I have always had a strong hatred for elves.

Dacia Brabant

2011-02-07, 01:26 AM

The correct answer is Drow.

...No, not Drizzt.

I will, however, give props to Duergar. Any race that can throw off the shackles of Mind Flayers earns the right to be called Badass. (Re: Githyanki/Githzerai)

Coidzor

2011-02-07, 01:53 AM

The correct answer is Drow.

...No, not Drizzt.

Sandwich Stoutaxe is the best Drow ever anyway. :smallamused: You'll never look at anvils the same way again...

Mina Kobold

2011-02-07, 06:17 AM

Uhm...

Both! :3

In fact, this thread made me think up a story for a world where elves are slaves, dwarves are rock-creatures and an elf and a dwarf will have to work together, despite having to share the Ale, to SAVE THE WORLD!

High chance of cheese if I ever make it. :smalltongue:

Eldan

2011-02-07, 06:45 AM

Hmm.

Is it cheating if I say "Any race, if the writer bothers to make them interesting?"

Because "I saw this in Tolkien, and then I watched a few parodies, and now I'm writing books about them!" is really not worth looking at, most of the time.

If we are talking mythology, we have quasi-divine spirit beings (elves), cruel and mischievous fey-like creatures (elves again) and secretive, sneaky illusionists and craftsmen (dwarves). Here, it's probably the fey.

Totally Guy

2011-02-07, 06:47 AM

We did this at the UK Meetup. A party of Elves and a party of Dwarves, locked in the age old debate of which was cooler...

The Dwarven vizier tried to poison the elves but his gnomish poisoner treacherously poisoned the dwarves instead.

Then the dwarves started blaming each other.

Then they fought the poisoner side by side.

Then the vizier convinced the elves that they should work together and go to war with a nation of gnomes!

So I guess politically each is as cool as each other...

(But secretly the dwarves are much cooler. They just don't want the hassle of telling everyone and having the elves get sad...)

Kris Strife

2011-02-07, 07:02 AM

Dwarfs. The hell with elves.

Cespenar

2011-02-07, 07:07 AM

The question can be reduced to this:

Do you prefer beer or wine?

Ravens_cry

2011-02-07, 07:12 AM

Both are cool for different reasons. Saying which is cooler is like asking what genre of music is better. You will get a thousand people saying different things, all completely right. Personally, I like elves better, especially when a little fay and alien. Imagine the life span of a D&D elf in terms of modern history. You were born during the early days of North American colonization, the Industrial Revolution hasn't even begun to start, and now you live in a world where men have walked on the moon, we fly across oceans in huge flying machines, and a hand-held device can access a computer network spanning the planet holding petabytes of information in the form of video, text, voice, code, and interactive media of all sorts. And while old, you will almost certainly live a while longer.
Having elves not be alien and aloof would be more odd then have them be humans with pointy ears.

Moonshadow

2011-02-07, 07:15 AM

Svirfnebli :3

Nah, in seriousness, Dwarves. Dwarves know how to get things done, man.

Unlike those damned pansy elves, always prancing in the moonlight, blasted tree hugging hippies :smallyuk:

Eldan

2011-02-07, 07:15 AM

And if I don't like beer (blergh, bitter) or wine (blergh, sour)?

Coidzor

2011-02-07, 07:17 AM

^: Obviously you prefer vikings because they just do mead. :smallbiggrin:
Unlike those damned pansy elves, always prancing in the moonlight, blasted tree hugging hippies :smallyuk:

and don't forget their villainous blood orgies!

AsteriskAmp

2011-02-07, 07:18 AM

and don't forget their villainous blood orgies!

Or their cannibalistic tendencies.

Cespenar

2011-02-07, 07:29 AM

And if I don't like beer (blergh, bitter) or wine (blergh, sour)?

I don't as well, but in either case the analogy is sound. :smalltongue:

Mordokai

2011-02-07, 07:37 AM

I prefer girls who wouldn’t snap like twig because of a strong breeze; but in seriousness I’ve seen plenty of artwork with sexy female Dwarves, and even Orcs, that are much hotter than any Elf.:smallbiggrin:

I prefer girls who don't look like barrels on legs and have facial hair :smalltongue:

In all seriousness? I guess I'd go with elves, if only because they are "base" for half elves, which I prefer to both dwarves and elves.

If we're looking for comic relief, dwarves win however.

Eldan

2011-02-07, 07:42 AM

What about the noble Dwelf (half-elf, half-dwarf)?

Gamerlord

2011-02-07, 07:49 AM

What about the noble Dwelf (half-elf, half-dwarf)?

You mean halfings.

Eldan

2011-02-07, 07:51 AM

No, of course not.

Halfing are half human, half Fish. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ling)

At least in my last setting, they were.

AsteriskAmp

2011-02-07, 07:54 AM

No, of course not.

Halfing are half human, half Fish. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ling)

At least in my last setting, they were.

How is that even possible?

Gamerlord

2011-02-07, 07:55 AM

How is that even possible?

A wizard did it.

Eldan

2011-02-07, 07:58 AM

Actually, it was Aboleths.

Basically, Halflings have always been water-associated in that campaign. There are, at the present time, only six intelligent species, one for each element and humans. Halflings actually came about when the water progenitor race, the Aboleths, made them from humans.

AsteriskAmp

2011-02-07, 08:02 AM

Gamerlord

2011-02-07, 08:02 AM

Eldan

2011-02-07, 08:03 AM

It came about semi-randomly, really.

Our group had a running gag that, obviously, halflings were half-human, half-Ling, without ever specifying what Ling actually were. Some kind of asian thing, probably.

Then, a few years ago, I read a paper which mentioned, somewhere, a fish named Ling. So that bit of backstory was born.

Themrys

2011-02-07, 09:23 AM

Cool...well, literally, elves show less emotion in most works and are arrogant and so on...I'd say they are cooler.

If the question is who is "better", then I really can't say, not if I take all fantasy books I read into consideration.

However, personally, I'd prefer to be an elf. Because I prefer boys "who don't look like barrels on legs and have facial hair" and also it seems that drinking alcohol is not as compulsory for elves as it is for dwarves.

Mordokai

2011-02-07, 10:58 AM

What about the noble Dwelf (half-elf, half-dwarf)?

Somewhere, somehow, an internet just spawned a fanfiction containing a love child of Gimli and Legolas. And it's all your fault.

I hope you're happy :smalltongue:

Thialfi

2011-02-07, 11:06 AM

Elves. I rarely play dwarves in an RPG setting. I figure I get to be fat and hairy in real life. I don't need to add short to that equation for my fantasy games.

Dallas-Dakota

2011-02-07, 11:24 AM

it seems that drinking alcohol is not as compulsory for elves as it is for dwarves.
That's just cause elves drink their wine every time they're off-screen, mainly.

Emperor Ing

2011-02-07, 11:26 AM

Dorfs are manly, Elves are mary sues. The answer is pretty clear.

Gullara

2011-02-07, 11:30 AM

Bah! Dose scrawny, pointy eared, pansies ain't got nothin on de dwarves.

Telonius

2011-02-07, 11:48 AM

City most resembling Elves: Seattle
City most resembling Dwarves: Pittsburgh
Result: Tossup (imo).

Attractiveness of men: Dwarves
Attractiveness of women: Elves
Result: Tossup.

High fashion: Elves
Practical fashion: Dwarves
Result: Tossup.

Better beer: Dwarves
Better wine: Elves
Result: Tossup.

Common accent, Elves: Fake English
Common accent, Dwarves: Fake Scottish
Result: Tossup.

Typical annoying Elvish character trait: Aloofness.
Typical annoying Dwarvish character trait: Grumpiness.
Result: Slight advantage to Dwarves.

Embarrassing racial stereotype, Dwarves: Sleepy, Happy, Etc.
Embarrassing racial stereotype, Elves: Santa's Helpers.
Result: Tossup.

Hazards to Dwarvish habitat: Earthquakes, cave-ins, occasional Balrog
Hazards to Elvish habitat: Forest fires, strong breeze, logging operations
Result: Tossup.

End result: Dwarves by a whisker.

Ranger Mattos

2011-02-07, 12:37 PM

*points at avatar*

Elves. Definitely elves. Because real elves are like this:

"He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship."

Gamerlord

2011-02-07, 12:42 PM

"He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship.":

AKA mary sue .

Dallas-Dakota

2011-02-07, 12:47 PM

*points at avatar*

Elves. Definitely elves. Because real elves are like this:
1. No offense ment to Tolkien, he created a awesome world, but he was a tad...obsessed with elvses.

2. You are talking about one of the best archers of the elves in the entire world there.(And yes, he is, I can't remember where I've read that, but I've read it multiple times in Letters)

3. As Gamer said, mary Sue.

AsteriskAmp

2011-02-07, 12:48 PM

I prefer thinking of elves as this:

http://df.magmawiki.com/images/0/09/Fault_Cacame_watercolor.pngCannibalistic backstabbing sociopaths.

Eldan

2011-02-07, 01:45 PM

That's just cause elves drink their wine every time they're off-screen, mainly.

Fun fact: most elves are actually perpetually tipsy.

Mina Kobold

2011-02-07, 02:00 PM

I prefer thinking of elves as this:

http://df.magmawiki.com/images/0/09/Fault_Cacame_watercolor.pngCannibalistic backstabbing sociopaths.

I prefer thinking of elves like this:

"I will fight till the bi- That tree is wonderful! It's inner magic! It's leaves! It's-"

*Whacked across room by cat*

"Vile non-treeeeeeeeOW!"

:smalltongue:

Zaydos

2011-02-07, 02:18 PM

Elves cause cancer so... okay serious time now.

D&D pre-Complete Book of Elves and Complete Book of Dwarves: I liked elves best, because straight from the book they had awesome Tolkien stolen fluff and lived up to their fluff. 3.X they are worse than human so the fluff telling me they are better annoys me. The Complete Book of Elves just dropped the ball and instead of adding interesting fluff and making their world more detailed and immersing said "let's just give elves even more racial abilities" while the Book of Dwarves was OMG FLUFF FROM ABOVE.

D&D post Complete Book of *: Dwarves. The mini-vikings win.

Non-D&D Norse: Tend towards dwarves they made Mjolnir!

Non-D&D non-Norse: Dark elves. The fickle fey from beyond the realms of man who rule an empire of fear and terror.

Lurkmoar

2011-02-07, 02:28 PM

I'm partial to dwarves. It's gotta be the rocking beards.

Xondoure

2011-02-07, 02:29 PM

Elves are often handled poorly but when done right they have the most potential to add a lot to the story. The trouble is people just copy Tolkien most of the time. Not that Tolkien's elves weren't great, they really filled the sense that this was a world where magic was fading and the greatness of ages past would soon be lost forever. People seem to forget the whole not right for this world anymore aspect though and just create super beings with no limitations. Or beings that are slightly better than humans and smug about it. I like Tolkien elves because they never can be truly happy in this world. It created a very interesting dynamic.

Dwarves in fantasy often become the baddest bearded warriors ever to spit on any drink without alcohol. Tolkien's were based on racial stereotypes so while I still think the characters are interesting, I have a hard time forgiving him for it. Mythologically they were mean, greedy, imps who wanted nothing to do with anyone and made items better than the gods could, which was the only reason anyone put up with them. They're cool and are certainly done better than Elves more often but as simple drunken warriors I never feel like they bring something to the setting that couldn't be done without them. And as greedy jerks I just don't like them.

Derjuin

2011-02-07, 02:30 PM

I'd say Elves, though if it came down to specifics I'd say dark elves. I blame the Drow of the Underdark book for this :smalltongue:

To me dwarves feel...I don't know. Stale. Almost every single dwarf I've ever seen is strong, short, covered in gratuitous amounts of body hair and is good at swinging an axe (and they usually never have any other weapon). Elves on the other hand seem to be portrayed in a variety of ways; at least, in my experience, moreso than dwarves.

Themrys

2011-02-07, 02:49 PM

AKA mary sue .

No. Actually not. The definition of a Mary Sue is that she is powerful enough to render the rest of the main cast useless and does so.
Everyone who read LotR knows that elves don't even do much. Legolas is an effective fighter (about as effectice as Gimli), that's it.
The elves are an interesting case in this regard - their superior abilities hardly affect the story. It is not even Legolas with whom Eowyn falls in love.

Telonius

2011-02-07, 03:55 PM

No. Actually not. The definition of a Mary Sue is that she is powerful enough to render the rest of the main cast useless and does so.
Everyone who read LotR knows that elves don't even do much. Legolas is an effective fighter (about as effectice as Gimli), that's it.
The elves are an interesting case in this regard - their superior abilities hardly affect the story. It is not even Legolas with whom Eowyn falls in love.

That would be Aragorn, who has Elvish (not to mention Maiar) forebears in his distant ancestry (through Elrond's brother Elros).

Who's the only suitable wife for Aragorn? Not Eowyn! Gotta be an elf.
Whose Rings were the only ones not totally corrupted by Sauron? The Elves!
Who helps Aragorn and the Hobbits when they're on the run from the Nazgul? An elf.
Who was the guy who can see for about ten miles through the cloudy dark? An elf.
Who one-shotted a Fell Beast when nobody else could even see the thing? An elf.
Who gives Frodo the Phial of Galadriel? An elf.
Who has no fear of the ghosts of the Oathbreakers? An elf.
What race is rumored to have intermarried with the Tooks, resulting in their adventurous streak? You guessed it.
Who forged all but one of the rings in the first place? Yet another bloody elf.

While this might not meet all the technical definitions of Mary Sue, it has enough of them to be (potentially) irritating. As Sir Terence says:

Everything you can do elves can do better, elves are much better at everything than you.

Themrys

2011-02-07, 04:05 PM

Okay, that thing about the Tooks, I really had forgotten.

What elves do in LotR is mostly support stuff. Which is why I don't think they qualify as Sue. Tolkien managed to keep his elf-obsession from affecting the plot in an harmful way.
Also, the hero of the whole novel is Sam...now don't tell me he as elvish ancestors, too! :smalleek:

Regarding Tolkien elves...wasn't there that pansy elf man who left his human love interest because she would age and become less attractive?
According to Tolkien, men are cowards and superficial...or only elvish men?

I probably should try and get rid off my obsession with male elves...but Vaarsuvius is so cute...:smallfrown:
Well, I can still hope s/he turns out to be female. :smallsmile:

Griever

2011-02-07, 04:13 PM

<elvish stuff>

If you want to mention the 3 rings, you might also include that at the time of LotR, the 3 rings were only being held by 1.5 elves, a mere half.

Everyone, I keep seeing you say that Elves are attractive, well, at least moreso than dwarves, but let me draw your attention to this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_EHepF1NuRGM/SqEo4ZHjz4I/AAAAAAAAEW4/7zuFUNJOCHg/s400/h-2-1216-wood-elf-king.jpg

Not too pretty is it? :smalleek: :smalltongue:

Mordokai

2011-02-07, 04:30 PM

Allow me to counter your picture with my own.

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/Mordokai/waiting.jpg

Better? :smalltongue:

Castaras

2011-02-07, 04:41 PM

Both are cool. As long as it isn't gnomes, of the d&d or garden variety, I'm cool.

I go Drow though. :smallwink:

Trog

2011-02-07, 07:35 PM

You know I have to point out to those that say Tolkien was a bit obsessed with the elves (that might not already know this) the fact that the modern Tolkien-esqe/DnD-esque elf ... and dwarf for that matter... were creations of Tolkien drawing from mythology. Mythology that had many different possible descriptions of elves ranging from the Seelie Court that lived in a magically removed land in the earth and hills to those one that mend wooden shoes and such and drink milk in the barn. And of course if you read the Silmarillion it's about practically nothing but elves, of course, but it's more like he was obsessed with history and language and put the most work into that for the elven race. I wouldn't say he was obsessed with him like it was a bad thing...

his "obesession" made them what they are today.

*insert witty reply to that last bit here* :smalltongue:

Galileo

2011-02-07, 07:48 PM

Klose_the_Sith

2011-02-07, 08:10 PM

Allow me to counter your picture with my own.

<snip>

Better? :smalltongue:

First reaction: That is a pathetic sword/dagger.

Second thought: Her muscle tone is really weird and not in the least attractive.

Third thought: So she's a human, with slightly pointed ears? Oh. Wow. That sure fills me with the grandeur and majesty of an ancient race.

Fourth thought: Resistance is futile, I have British Imperial Dwarves :smalltongue:

Coidzor

2011-02-07, 08:41 PM

So the mountainhome, instead of a beer volcano just has a never ending "waterfall" of gin and tonic, eh?

Klose_the_Sith

2011-02-07, 08:48 PM

So the mountainhome, instead of a beer volcano just has a never ending "waterfall" of gin and tonic, eh?

Well, the current standing of the Dwarf parliament has ye olde mountainhome firmly divided between the Traditionalists and the Reformists to the extent that even different branches of the Royal Marines are divided between axe and rifle ...

... I could have kept going for a loooooong time :smallredface:

(Besides, the troops drink rum :smalltongue:)

FoE

2011-02-07, 10:01 PM

A year ago, I might have said dwarves. But Dragon Age really turned me on to elves and now I'm, like, "Hurray for elves!"

Coidzor

2011-02-07, 10:15 PM

A year ago, I might have said dwarves. But Dragon Age really turned me on to elves and now I'm, like, "Hurray for elves!"

Really? I'd heard the exact opposite from a lot of people. ...Possibly because of Spike (http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0016524/), but still...

FoE

2011-02-07, 10:25 PM

Really? I'd heard the exact opposite from a lot of people. ...Possibly because of Spike (http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0016524/), but still...

Great show though it may be, what does Cowboy Bebop have to do with anything? Unless you're referring to Steve Blum in some way.

GenericGuy

2011-02-07, 10:36 PM

Great show though it may be, what does Cowboy Bebop have to do with anything? Unless you're referring to Steve Blum in some way.

He was the voice of Oghren and other Dwarves;

And the Dragon Age Elves didn’t change anything for me; them being on the bottom of the social totem pole as I said earlier just makes them “pity me sues.”

FoE

2011-02-07, 10:56 PM

He was the voice of Oghren and other Dwarves

He voiced Oghren and Gorim. Terrific voice actor that he may be, doesn't make me suddenly like dwarves.

And the Dragon Age Elves didn’t change anything for me; them being on the bottom of the social totem pole as I said earlier just makes them “pity me sues.”

Yeah, yeah, whatever. It seems that the "perfect" elves are so ingrained in people's minds that it's cool to hate any portrayal of elves that isn't extremely mean-spirited.

Look, I was never crazy about the "perfect" elves either, but I think the game did a pretty good job fleshing them out beyond the "pretty, immortal and awesome" archetype.

TheSummoner

2011-02-07, 11:22 PM

araveugnitsuga - Cacame is not an elf and it is insulting that you would make such statements! He happens to be a great (if unusually tall) Dwarven king who happens to suffer from a horrible illness that has tragically caused him to lose all of his body hair.

More to the point... Lets see...

You can't distinguish the men from the women with either race...

Dwarves are industrial and always moving forward, Elves do nothing but preach the greatness of their ancient culture that is somehow barely past where human society is despite having a multi-century head start.

Dwarves will tell you whats on their mind, Elves always use doublespeak and half-truths.

Dwarves never forget who their allies (or enemies) are and are quick to act in times of war, Elves like to sit on their asses until the enemy is right outside their door.

Elves cause cancer. Dwarves cause, at worst, drunkenness.

Dwarves.

FoE

2011-02-07, 11:27 PM

Dwarves will tell you whats on their mind

Yes, and dwarves have opinions on such a wide variety of topics! Like mining … and booze … and mining … and axes … and mining … and beards … and booze … and booze … and booze …

Such a rich culture.

Zaydos

2011-02-07, 11:29 PM

I like dwarves. Terry Pratchett's books use the drunken bearded axe-wielding stereotype as a base, but develops them into a race that's slowly being affected by human culture, fashion and ideas.

Elves, on the other hand, are jerks. One of my friends constantly insisting that elves are super special awesome doesn't exactly help.

And they lay eggs. Next time you meet an elf, ask them if they lay eggs, and tell them they're lying if they deny it.

I also believe gnomes are half-halflings, half-dwarves. Look at them, they're halfway between the two! How can they not be?

I have never known an elf to lay an egg. Although as they are a very ancient lineage of mammals it is possible. Even so I think they have developed to marsupial status at least. Also gnomes are dwelves. Seriously 2e gnomes were described as somewhere between elves and dwarves with a blending of their nature. They're short, stout warrior people (yeah The Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings made them sound awesome) that live in the forest, master magic, and love animals. Actually they're like some sueish mixture of the two.

-stuff I'm not commenting on-

Elves cause cancer. Dwarves cause, at worst, drunkenness.

Dwarves.

Only in lesser races.

TheSummoner

2011-02-07, 11:30 PM

Yes, and dwarves have opinions on such a wide variety of topics! Like mining … and booze … and mining … and axes … and mining … and beards … and booze … and booze … and booze …

Such a rich culture.

You forgot hammers and crossbows and rocks and gold and gems.

(Edited in the quote since I got ninja'd)

Giggling Ghast

2011-02-07, 11:36 PM

Friends! Why must we fight? Couldn't we agree that both elves and dwarves are cool in their own way? Or better yet, pick on someone who truly deserves our scorn … like kender?

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2011-02-07, 11:42 PM

If taken at their stereotypes, elves are mary sues and dwarves are an entire species of one-note characters. I'll go gnome or halfling or yuan-ti or something.

Lord Raziere

2011-02-08, 12:05 AM

Friends! Why must we fight? Couldn't we agree that both elves and dwarves are cool in their own way? Or better yet, pick on someone who truly deserves our scorn … like kender?

I like Kender.

I'll keep sniping at elves. my greatest weapon: an elf of my own creation known as Nesalar Valvani.
He unlike most elves, sees no reason to use any kind of half-truth of deception, forever refers to himself as "a humble scholar/ambassador" wears these plain clothes that looks closer to what a monk would wear, he is completely naive and trusting and has the physical and magical prowess of a wizard, cause he is one.

all he does is travel the world on foot searching for world peace, and he has no idea of the rest of the elves arrogance, who have secretly exiled for him not fitting in with elven culture's arrogance and racism but at the same time being too good a scholar, too well-behaved and polite to really punish him. He has no idea what the outside world is like and out of scholarly curiosity, it is why he went traveling so he can satisfy it. He only kills when it is absolutely necessary. He is also the most open-minded person in the world and sees absolutely no reason why he should hate a dwarf or anyone else, because isn't that counter-productive to world peace?
All of this means he is idealistic to a fault and all the flaws that come with it of course. He will for example happily grant a criminal redemption, even when its clear he shouldn't be trusted at all.

He is basically a reinvention of the elves while still retaining what makes him an elf- love for life, mysticism and such, while sort of destroying all flaws of being close-minded arrogant racists and replacing it with this unending naive idealism and upholding his principles no matter what, combined with scholarly intelligence and curiosity.

Giggling Ghast

2011-02-08, 12:10 AM

I like Kender.

*Pulls out holy symbol*

Back, foul creature! BACK, I SAY!

Lord Raziere

2011-02-08, 12:12 AM

*Pulls out holy symbol*

Back, foul creature! BACK, I SAY!

Aaw, no comment upon my ultimate weapon against the mary sue elves? :smallfrown:

Giggling Ghast

2011-02-08, 12:14 AM

Aaw, no comment upon my ultimate weapon against the mary sue elves? :smallfrown:

You lost me when you said "I like kender." With those words, I knew that all you spoke was madness.

Zaydos

2011-02-08, 12:14 AM

If taken at their stereotypes, elves are mary sues and dwarves are an entire species of one-note characters. I'll go gnome or halfling or yuan-ti or something.

And gnomes are annoying, high pitched mad scientists (and before that they were "the best aspects of dwarves and of elves"). Halflings are kleptomaniacs who also happen to be Bilbo and never leave home. Yuan-ti are murderous snake people who also happen to be better than everyone at everything and know it, making them just as big sues as elves.

If any race is taken at their stereotypes they're bad.

What annoys me is only in D&D and crunch (mostly 3.X elves are weak and sues at the same time). The exception being 2e's Complete Book of Elves which thought they could replace a chapter of fluff with a chapter of new mechanical benefits to being an elf... elves were already the best race they didn't need more.

I like Kender.

As do I.

I'll keep sniping at elves. my greatest weapon: an elf of my own creation known as Nesalar Valvani.
He unlike most elves, sees no reason to use any kind of half-truth of deception, forever refers to himself as "a humble scholar/ambassador" wears these plain clothes that looks closer to what a monk would wear, he is completely naive and trusting and has the physical and magical prowess of a wizard, cause he is one.

all he does is travel the world on foot searching for world peace, and he has no idea of the rest of the elves arrogance, who have secretly exiled for him not fitting in with elven culture's arrogance and racism but at the same time being too good a scholar, too well-behaved and polite to really punish him. He has no idea what the outside world is like and out of scholarly curiosity, it is why he went traveling so he can satisfy it. He only kills when it is absolutely necessary. He is also the most open-minded person in the world and sees absolutely no reason why he should hate a dwarf or anyone else, because isn't that counter-productive to world peace?
All of this means he is idealistic to a fault and all the flaws that come with it of course. He will for example happily grant a criminal redemption, even when its clear he shouldn't be trusted at all.

He is basically a reinvention of the elves while still retaining what makes him an elf- love for life, mysticism and such, while sort of destroying all flaws of being close-minded arrogant racists and replacing it with this unending naive idealism and upholding his principles no matter what, combined with scholarly intelligence and curiosity.

The thing is that's the original traits of elves: love for life, mysticism and a closeness to nature and magic. Close-minded arrogant racists wasn't "elf" until later (arguably they are close-minded in LotR but really they are more tired and ready to leave the world behind; they have no hatred for man only a belief that the only reason they are in this mess is because of Isildor because they remember winning this war already). On that note upholding their principles on pain of death and scholarly intelligence and curiosity have always been part of D&D elves and even Tolkien's elves in the end decided their principles were more valuable than their immortal lives.

The current elf stereotypes came after the elf hate. They are used to justify it, but they only exist because of it.

I still prefer dwarves (that said elves are 3rd on my list).

Giggling Ghast

2011-02-08, 12:15 AM

As do I.

More demons! It seems that I am surrounded!

Lord Raziere

2011-02-08, 12:18 AM

Zaydos

2011-02-08, 12:21 AM

ah, explains a lot Zaydos, though I came up with Nesalar all on my own.

@ Candle Jack: Really? only three words to start driving you insane? cool! maybe with the three rights words, I can drive everybody in the world insane!
*starts chanting "I like Kender" repeatedly into infinitely at Candle Jack* :smalltongue:

Actually he's rather awesome. A throwback to old elven ways thrown out by the elves because they've forgotten what it means to be an elf. Making the elves a decadent culture that has forgotten what made it once rise to rule the world actually would be an excellent choice, and actually give them a reason to be in decline other than "we want humans in power."

Now maybe for the campaign I'm starting I'll... oh wait last campaign with these players the elves had accidentally put themselves in decline through their own extreme arrogance transforming themselves into the undead... it might be too close to the same.

Lord Raziere

2011-02-08, 12:39 AM

Zaydos

2011-02-08, 12:48 AM

or maybe I could just make my own world where the elves have become decadent and such.
as for dwarves.....they are cool, but since they are one note, maybe I could find a way to expand them, make em find new ways of being a dwarf other than "mine, drink, fight, beard, gold" etc. like sailing, lumberjacks, oh wait! I got it, traveling dwarven daredevils, dwarves would be just the type of people to be these people traveling about performing stunts and manly taking on impossible challenges., anyone got any other ideas for expanding dwarves?

edit: which reminds of a dwarf concept I got- a dwarf who wants to fly, and left to find way to fly cause all the other dwarves thought he was crazy.

I often have my dwarves be wizards/masters of artifice. I also have them often be paladins and noted for their honor. So my dwarves are more "craft, guard, save, drink" with "beard" just running throughout. Then again I don't see much wrong with the dwarven fighter as they are my 2nd favorite fantasy race.

Moff Chumley

2011-02-08, 01:14 AM

Zaydos

2011-02-08, 01:15 AM

Here's the thing: there are two or three archetypes for elf characters, and it's basically impossible to go outside those archetypes and still be playing an elf. With dwarfs, though, there are any number of archetypes and options that are still plenty dwarfy.

What are the archetypes for elves? I'm not sure if I agree or disagree (I'm inclined to agree) but I'm interested.

Dwarves yeah I agree.

Rob Roy

2011-02-08, 01:40 AM

Elves (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4CvwBGniCOwJ:df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Cacame_Awemedinade+cacame+awenmidade&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=pe&source=www.google.com.pe)
Saying Cacame's an elf is like saying Âsax wasn't awesome.

Anyway I like Dwarves more; they embody progress and beer. Elves embody arrogance and stoners.

Trekkin

2011-02-08, 02:02 AM

I'd have to go with dwarves, but that's probably heavily influenced by them being the go-to crafter race in the fantasy I read. My favorite part of any given pantheon is its forge god; dwarves are the same general idea in short form.

Then again, in my single wholly fantasy setting, elves are basically Mother Nature's telepathically networked leukocytes and while dwarves live in an Orwellian nightmare hidden by seeming to drown the nobility, and to a lesser extent the populace at large, in booze, feasts, and obscure ceremony. So elves will kill with no subtlety according to the whims of a seemingly inscrutable pseudo-god, while the dwarves will kill with infinite subtlety according to intricate and coldly logical plans. Not much choice, really.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2011-02-08, 02:09 AM

And gnomes are annoying, high pitched mad scientists (and before that they were "the best aspects of dwarves and of elves"). Halflings are kleptomaniacs who also happen to be Bilbo and never leave home. Yuan-ti are murderous snake people who also happen to be better than everyone at everything and know it, making them just as big sues as elves.
I would take annoying mad scientist over "I'm perfect" or "I'm the same exact character as my entire race," if only because there are more varieties of annoying mad scientist. The halfling stereotype at least has the cognitive dissonance of the lust for adventure mixed with being a lazy, fat homebody.
The yuan-ti are sues only in the loosest definition, really. I mean, sure, they have lots of neat powers and whatever, but they never, ever succeed at their one main goal (or really any of their other schemes), which could put them as pity-me-sues or whatever, were it not for the fact that they are heartless monsters virtually incapable of engendering pity. More to the point, though, I'll take "murderous, yet ultimately doomed, ophidian supervillain" above "Look at me I'm pretty and awesome and I'll live forever, but I'm also a really good person, too," or "beer," insofar as races go. Anything reduced to a stereotype is worse, I'll give you that. I'm just saying if we're playing the stereotype game (which, seemingly, is the nature of this thread), there are better stereotypes out there.

Zaydos

2011-02-08, 02:29 AM

I would take annoying mad scientist over "I'm perfect" or "I'm the same exact character as my entire race," if only because there are more varieties of annoying mad scientist. The halfling stereotype at least has the cognitive dissonance of the lust for adventure mixed with being a lazy, fat homebody.
The yuan-ti are sues only in the loosest definition, really. I mean, sure, they have lots of neat powers and whatever, but they never, ever succeed at their one main goal (or really any of their other schemes), which could put them as pity-me-sues or whatever, were it not for the fact that they are heartless monsters virtually incapable of engendering pity. More to the point, though, I'll take "murderous, yet ultimately doomed, ophidian supervillain" above "Look at me I'm pretty and awesome and I'll live forever, but I'm also a really good person, too," or "beer," insofar as races go. Anything reduced to a stereotype is worse, I'll give you that. I'm just saying if we're playing the stereotype game (which, seemingly, is the nature of this thread), there are better stereotypes out there.

The yuan-ti are not sues in only the loosest definition. They're villain sues, directly stated to be better, smarter, and more charming than their foes (only things like the illithids and drow are their equals). The fact that none of their schemes succeed despite being better than everyone and smarter, more capable, better looking, etc is like the elves not ruling the world or being game mechanically strong; it doesn't make any sense. So yuan-ti are "murderous, psychopathic, inept, but somehow smarter and more charismatic than everyone else ophidian supervillain who is doomed just because the books say always evil" which is a lot worse than "murderous, yet ultimately doomed, ophidian supervillain". Although the original premise was good, when Howard used it in his King Kull stories. There they were a credible threat who at the end of the only King Kull stories I could find actually seemed like as soon as Kull died they'd laugh at his efforts to stop them and take over; and they weren't better than humans they were just evil, long-lived, and masters of disguise.

As for gnomes I'll agree there is more than one type of mad scientist, unfortunately all gnomes fall under the category of noble hearted inventor of steam punk technology in a world of medieval stasis, or into "best of both elves and dwarves"; at least if you take them at stereotypes. Elves also have, at least, two different stereotypes the Sue with arrogance, the sue with actual nobility, the evil villain with magical power who steals babies, and various others.

Also why can't you be pretty, awesome, long lived and good? We're talking either mythic folk lore (where the elves were not good, and more magical companions to beings of great power than awesome) or heroic fantasy where pretty, awesome, and good are the norms for everyone (except dwarves, they're not pretty)

Also why don't elves have a charisma bonus? Actually I was planning on reworking elves to be a good choice of race (nad not just grey elves) but now I want to make them an LA +3 or +4 super-race because... really that's what their fluff demands...

Mordokai

2011-02-08, 02:32 AM

First reaction: That is a pathetic sword/dagger.

Second thought: Her muscle tone is really weird and not in the least attractive.

Third thought: So she's a human, with slightly pointed ears? Oh. Wow. That sure fills me with the grandeur and majesty of an ancient race.

Fourth thought: Resistance is futile, I have British Imperial Dwarves :smalltongue:

Is there anything I can post that will look like an elf and will not make you come up with some sort of flimsy arguments that will prove beyond reasonable doubt that that being is really not an elf?

Aaw, no comment upon my ultimate weapon against the mary sue elves? :smallfrown:

Yeah. Why did you bother with taking what you consider a Mary Sue... only to turn it into another Mary Sue? Slighty different Mary Sue, true, but non the less.

Eldan

2011-02-08, 03:35 AM

Well, anything is cool if it's Imperial British.

Like my gnomes. They are the Royal Society, in a weird mixture of 1670 and 1860. Including cavalier hats, rapiers and gigantic muttonchops.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2011-02-08, 03:37 AM

So yuan-ti are "murderous, psychopathic, inept, but somehow smarter and more charismatic than everyone else ophidian supervillain who is doomed just because the books say always evil" which is a lot worse than "murderous, yet ultimately doomed, ophidian supervillain".
Ineptitude makes perfect sense when you're psychopathic. Besides, I still don't see "inept" really being part of a Sue (or if I buy into a "villain sue" that isn't remotely sympathetic or successful). They have plenty of discernible flaws (many more than elves do), including that being psychopathic and murderous tend to put off most chances for cooperation, and they've never gotten nearly the sympathetic treatment even evil drow have. It's common, I know, to call anything with superhuman abilities a mary sue, but they're hardly the perfect snowflakes elves are often made out to be. That said, their charm is all deception, and their genius is tainted with madness. Elven charm is pretty much just charm, and their genius is tainted by, I guess, being (rather justifiably) arrogant about it.

As for gnomes I'll agree there is more than one type of mad scientist, unfortunately all gnomes fall under the category of noble hearted inventor of steam punk technology in a world of medieval stasis, or into "best of both elves and dwarves"; at least if you take them at stereotypes.
I think "wacky alchemist" is really just as, if not more common, a gnome stereotype. They also have the "trixie, mischievous illusionist" vibe pretty commonly, too.

Elves also have, at least, two different stereotypes the Sue with arrogance, the sue with actual nobility, the evil villain with magical power who steals babies, and various others.
Fair enough, but I'd still prefer goofy, misguided inventor to "Captain Pureawesome."

Coidzor

2011-02-08, 03:57 AM

Well, anything is cool if it's Imperial British.

Like my gnomes. They are the Royal Society, in a weird mixture of 1670 and 1860. Including cavalier hats, rapiers and gigantic muttonchops.

Heh. Now you've got me imagining Gnomes trying to work out how to store their souls in their mutton chops for easy access for tinkering with by reverse engineering dwarven beards... :smallbiggrin:

Eldan

2011-02-08, 03:58 AM

They are mostly busy trying to find new uses for Mercury and to prove whether or not the astral plane has mass, even though it has no gravity.

Snow Leopard

2011-02-08, 06:12 AM

dwarves. moreover they have more humor sense:smallcool:

Klose_the_Sith

2011-02-08, 06:26 AM

Is there anything I can post that will look like an elf and will not make you come up with some sort of flimsy arguments that will prove beyond reasonable doubt that that being is really not an elf?

No, not really :smalltongue:

But that dagger is appalling and her muscle tone is disgusting. It's not that I find elves quite so inherently disgusting, it's just that didn't seem a very good example of what you were going for.

Well, anything is cool if it's Imperial British.

Like my gnomes. They are the Royal Society, in a weird mixture of 1670 and 1860. Including cavalier hats, rapiers and gigantic muttonchops.

That is nothing short of superb. My mailed pith helmet off to you, sir :smallcool:

Eldan

2011-02-08, 06:31 AM

*Bows*

And my comically oversized, feathered hat.
You know, gnomes are instantly cooler if they have velvet cloaks, rolled boots, doublets and huge, puffy sleeves with a lot of lace. While debating science.

Worlok

2011-02-08, 06:32 AM

Anyway I like Dwarves more; they embody progress and bear. Elves embody arrogance and stoners.
Okay, before anyone takes that one out of context and starts the same old bear-optimisation-nonsense, let me just say that apparently liking Kender gives you superpowers - or requires them. After all:

*starts chanting "I like Kender" repeatedly into infinitely at Candle Jack*
That guy just said "Candle Jack" and got aw

Eldan

2011-02-08, 06:34 AM

Honestly, if elves are stoners and dwarves drunks, I'd know which group I'd prefer hanging out with, from general experience.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2011-02-08, 06:37 AM

Halflings are the ones who stay at home and eat all the time. Just sayin'. Also, what's that stuff they put in their pipes called?

Yeah. Yeah.

TheSummoner

2011-02-08, 07:28 AM

So... The Orcs would be crack addicts then, right?

Eldan

2011-02-08, 07:29 AM

Well, any kind of drug that makes you hyperactive and violent.

Telonius

2011-02-08, 08:46 AM

Another point for the Elves - the greatest thief in the multiverse is an elf.

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/polls/260000/260519_1246349655511_100.jpg?v=1246350062

Dallas-Dakota

2011-02-08, 08:57 AM

Not true, Bilbo Baggins.

Lord Raziere

2011-02-08, 09:29 AM

Yeah. Why did you bother with taking what you consider a Mary Sue... only to turn it into another Mary Sue? Slighty different Mary Sue, true, but non the less.

One of my best works is when I paired him with this incredibly cynical female human warrior also of my own creation, who hated elves, as in far more than any of you. she called him out on his elven stuff at every opportunity, was far more worldly and tons more common sense than him generally berating and insulting him and basically seemed like the worst of humanity: she loved to fight, was ruthless and she wanted nothing more go to over to the elves, beat them all up until they stop being arrogant close-minded racists.

now imagine this humble open-minded scholar elf who believes in the very best in everyone comes along....and he doesn't act like what elves act like at all and instead believes in her, while just can't immediately start killing or beating him up cause he ain't acting like she remembers elves act like and they stick together, he to make sure he can find something good in her and her to find out what is up with this elf.

I played it for comedy. hilarity ensued. It also eventually made him realize how far his race had fallen and he gained a measure of realism in his actions.

Castaras

2011-02-08, 10:58 AM

Random little fact: Tolkien was orginally going to be calling his version of Elves Gnomes. But was persuaded otherwise. :smallamused:

Mina Kobold

2011-02-08, 12:39 PM

Telonius

2011-02-08, 12:58 PM

Not true, Bilbo Baggins.

Bah. Thief would be able to steal not only the deed to Bag End, but the ground out of which it was made, as well as the entire supply of Westfarthing pipe-weed; then sell it back to Saruman for the keys to Orthanc (assuming he hadn't pickpocketed them previously).

Dallas-Dakota

2011-02-08, 01:03 PM

The thing is, Bilbo, untrained, is already a better Thief, while Thief has much training, if I remember right. He stole the Arkenstone without knowing, he's that good. Even when he was warned ''MINE, MINE, MINE''.:smallcool:

Eldan

2011-02-08, 01:30 PM

Random little fact: Tolkien was orginally going to be calling his version of Elves Gnomes. But was persuaded otherwise. :smallamused:

Not entirely true: he only wanted to call the Noldor gnomes, for their crafting talents. Which would still include the Light Elves of Arda.
He debated alternative names like Alb, Alf and Elb, though.

Zaydos

2011-02-08, 01:36 PM

Not true, Bilbo Baggins.

Not a thief, a grocer or maybe a burglar. Also not a very good one, only his ring of invisibility let him sneak into the dragon's lair and it knew he did so. Bilbo isn't a good thief at all, he's an excellent good luck charm though.

Now for the ultimate thief you have the Gray Mouser.

GenericGuy

2011-02-08, 04:35 PM

Lord Raziere

2011-02-08, 06:48 PM

Hmm. Deconstructing. >:3

I was thinking about having the high-elf types be so obsessed with beauty and looks that it becomes their downfall. Their buildings are impractical and only held up by magic, their weapons and armour are based on status and out of balance with large gems and golden handles, etc. etc.

Then the wood-elves could be those that survived when the great civilisations of high-elves fell, always seeking past glory or being lost in the ruins of the elven capitals. Also, very easily distracted. O_O

Great potential for slaves for other races. Humans and dwarves included, otherwise it just becomes the same old "Orcs are evil and keep pretty people as slaves" stereotype. >.<

So... Still sueish or a whisker better than that? :smallsmile:

yea...wanna know a thing about an immortal society? all the goods jobs are taken by people who were born before the younger people. the younger people don't have any jobs anymore......meaning they become hobos....they become angry and exile themselves....

and thats how you end up with wood elves from high elves. the immortal high elves already have all the good job so their descendants have no jobs to get into, thus becoming wood elves in rebellion. there wouldn't need an apocalypse situation for wood elves to exist-just the elves own immortality.

and I'm guessing the high elves wouldn't like these wood elf upstarts rebelling against them. elven civil war between high elf and wood elf with with wood elves using guerilla warfare tactics while high elves use their fancy spells and artifacts.

another way to deconstruct them is to make elves so reliant on their magic....is that when they go outside their magical environment they start to go sick, or have no idea how to actually survive, cause maybe their magic is keeping them healthy and providing for their every need so that when they are stuck without it, they literally don't know how to live, like looking for a stream or foraging for food or even just buying food, or they start contracting diseases the magic kept away. or maybe the elves feed on the magic itself and have adapted so well to it that when they don't have ambient magic to feed on, they starve.

Klose_the_Sith

2011-02-08, 07:17 PM

yea...wanna know a thing about an immortal society? all the goods jobs are taken by people who were born before the younger people. the younger people don't have any jobs anymore......meaning they become hobos....they become angry and exile themselves....

and thats how you end up with wood elves from high elves. the immortal high elves already have all the good job so their descendants have no jobs to get into, thus becoming wood elves in rebellion. there wouldn't need an apocalypse situation for wood elves to exist-just the elves own immortality.

Right, because economies are incapable of growth. Ever. No new jobs are created and new industries never form :smalltongue:

Coidzor

2011-02-08, 07:28 PM

Right, because economies are incapable of growth. Ever. No new jobs are created and new industries never form :smalltongue:

Indeed, you've just grasped the why the elves are stuck in medieval stasis and stagnating in every other setting.

otherwise it just becomes the same old "Orcs are evil and keep pretty people as slaves" stereotype. >.<

What? :smallconfused: No, seriously, where did you get that from? I've never heard of that being a stereotype ever before.

I've run into them being brutal slave-owners, going out of their way to crush people who are too pretty/foppish, and ye olde rape-happy murder-horde, but never "like to keep pretty people as slaves."

Lord Raziere

2011-02-08, 07:40 PM

yea well....fantasy seems to be perpetually stuck in the same time period anyways and even when they aren't, there is always some new magical cataclysm around the corner that is juuuuuust powerful enough to reset things back to it without completely wiping everything out so it really doesn't matter in this case :smalltongue:

indeed a good fantasy deconstruction would be to figure out all the bad consequences of a world always stuck in medieval times and show why people moved past the pastoral pre-industrial world of villages and castles in the first place.

Zaydos

2011-02-08, 07:40 PM

No, you get dark elves (not drow). You get the immortal elf king who sits upon his throne for millenniums and sends out his warriors to take more and more land from humans. Till they rule the world; it's at that point that they might stagnate or when beaten... Oh I hope no body wants to play an elf this Friday cause I want them to be the villains for the campaign now... and alive this time.

I'm not going to have them die from lack of magic, though; I've done that the last two campaigns I DM'd for these players (one time they reversed their internal magic and became undead even) so it's a little old.

Klose_the_Sith

2011-02-08, 09:32 PM

yea well....fantasy seems to be perpetually stuck in the same time period anyways and even when they aren't, there is always some new magical cataclysm around the corner that is juuuuuust powerful enough to reset things back to it without completely wiping everything out so it really doesn't matter in this case :smalltongue:

Sure, but medieval towns still grew. Money isn't some sort of godly divine essence, it's the way people divide what everyone's made up amongst themselves. More people, more production, more money to go around.

You don't need to break medieval stasis to fulfil this. They kept finding places for people in the real middle ages, after all.

Rob Roy

2011-02-08, 11:50 PM

You don't need to break medieval stasis to fulfil this. They kept finding places for people in the real middle ages, after all.
Because the people who used to hold that job died. Not a problem to elves. More in line with your original claim there's a point where you just can't keep expanding, food becomes scarce and the people without jobs(the young elves) starve to death. Elf society stagnating is inevitable without something like disease(unlikely with elven magic) or a magical cataclysm(likely with elven magic).

Zaydos

2011-02-09, 12:31 AM

Because the people who used to hold that job died. Not a problem to elves. More in line with your original claim there's a point where you just can't keep expanding, food becomes scarce and the people without jobs(the young elves) starve to death. Elf society stagnating is inevitable without something like disease(unlikely with elven magic) or a magical cataclysm(likely with elven magic).

But it's only inevitable once they've spread across the globe as far as they can. This means a bloody age of war and strife. Just like in Tolkien's Silmarilion where elves die all the time due to violence. Except here the elves would have other fantasy races to contend with.

So we'd end up with something akin to Melniboen.

Moff Chumley

2011-02-09, 12:32 AM

Either way, there are no more elves. So everyone's happy.

...I think that's what conclusion we reached, at least. :smallconfused:

Lord Raziere

2011-02-09, 12:48 AM

Moff Chumley

2011-02-09, 12:50 AM

No, but here's the clever bit.

We blame the Planetouched. :smallbiggrin:

Lord Raziere

2011-02-09, 12:52 AM

No, but here's the clever bit.

We blame the Planetouched. :smallbiggrin:

......What.

There is no train of logic that leads to this.

EXPLAIN! EXPLAIN! EXPLAIN! [/Dalek]

Zaydos

2011-02-09, 12:53 AM

not Nesalar Valvani. He didn't get his world peace.

that and elves might be jerks and I may hate em....but I still wouldn't wish death on them, taking elf-hate too far just makes it another form of fantasy racism. fantasy racism against arrogant close-minded haughty racist jerks but still racism. Cause by then you aren't really better than them anymore and despite all their jerkishness, have you ever actually heard of an elf ordering to exterminate humans just because they are inferior? (OUTSIDE of WH40k/WH and drow)

No.

Therefore wishing death upon elves is only proving the arrogant elves who always say that humanity is inferior and brutish bastards, right, Moff.
You say that all the elves die and everyone is happy, that only means the elves were right, cause the arrogant jerk elves never wished death upon you.

As they....anger leads to hate...hate leads to.... and so on... the dark side. :smallbiggrin:

Actually yes I have. Lorwyn (MtG) had elves that were murderous to lesser races, and I've read fantasy stories with The Fair Folk style elves that finally get fed up with humanity and try to kill us. Now the former was an intentional deconstruction of elves where instead of being noble they were foul, and the latter it's usually because we're going to kill them off otherwise but yes it does exist.

Now D&D/Tolkien style elves? No; the worst they can be accused of is saying: "We caused a mess, we beat down the mess and got rid of it; or would have if you hadn't stopped us. We didn't kill you to finish the job then like we could have because we aren't like that, but it's your mess now we're going to go. The only reason we've stayed the last few centuries is to help you anyway." Even then they still came in and saved the day helped in a military engagement or two while a pair of hobbits saved the day with their pure half-witted awesome.

Lord Raziere

2011-02-09, 12:59 AM

yea well its the Tolkien Elves most people hate. the Fair Folk....yea I think many people consider them to be completely different.

oh right, Lorwyn, read those books, forgot to buy the third one in the trilogy, still got the first two. maybe I should them again sometime.

but still the arrogant jerk stereotype is never actually evil, and wishing death upon someone just because of that is evil itself. which is why we shouldn't take the elf-hate too far.

Klose_the_Sith

2011-02-09, 05:26 AM

Because the people who used to hold that job died. Not a problem to elves. More in line with your original claim there's a point where you just can't keep expanding, food becomes scarce and the people without jobs(the young elves) starve to death. Elf society stagnating is inevitable without something like disease(unlikely with elven magic) or a magical cataclysm(likely with elven magic).

Or, y'know, expansion. What makes Elves so great that forming an actual society is beneath them? Even if they stick to the old ways, they can just build a bigger city with more stuff and more room ... and so on and so on. If population density becomes a problem, new settlements are formed. If their country is starting to fill out, declare crusade. Wash, rinse, repeat, eventual decline and collapse of your empire.

Mina Kobold

2011-02-09, 10:27 AM

Depends if the elves are still used for moralizing against humans, that’s what I find sueish about them. When they’re up high authors turn their society into a utopia and condescends that this what humanity should be doing and is a failure for not. But, when they’re a “slave race” or a persecuted people it potentially doubles the author's chance at a condescending message of “the evils of Man.”

By the way this sounds a lot like the Dragon Age version of elves; were they the inspiration?

Well, their buildings litterally broke down once the wizard behind them died but maybe somebody think that's how humans should be? :smalltongue:

I see your point about the second thing and will remember to remind teh reader that while it is indeed horrible to commit slavery it is still normal in this world and doesn't make somebody an instant villain. Nor does being a slave mean an elf will be set to carry boulders up pyramids, it may but it may just as well mean they will be serving as a butler and live better than some free members of the society. Slavery is evil, working with it to make people's lives better is not. *Sagenod*

Dragon age? I'm not sure I know much about that, is it a video game? ^.^'

What? :smallconfused: No, seriously, where did you get that from? I've never heard of that being a stereotype ever before.

I've run into them being brutal slave-owners, going out of their way to crush people who are too pretty/foppish, and ye olde rape-happy murder-horde, but never "like to keep pretty people as slaves."

I am not sure about that one actually, I just assumed that the Princess Leia damsel in distress deal was common. :smallredface:

It seemed so considering what I have heard about old Fantasy movies.

Lord Raziere

2011-02-09, 10:31 AM

Or, y'know, expansion. What makes Elves so great that forming an actual society is beneath them? Even if they stick to the old ways, they can just build a bigger city with more stuff and more room ... and so on and so on. If population density becomes a problem, new settlements are formed. If their country is starting to fill out, declare crusade. Wash, rinse, repeat, eventual decline and collapse of your empire.

they are elves, not immortal humans.

they don't want to harm their precious forest, and building an empire is so much work, I think we will just live in isolation in our cool place of wonder and not share any of its bounty with anyone, say the elves. :smalltongue:

Klose_the_Sith

2011-02-09, 10:33 AM

they are elves, not immortal humans.

they don't want to harm their precious forest, and building an empire is so much work, I think we will just live in isolation in our cool place of wonder and not share any of its bounty with anyone, say the elves. :smalltongue:

They don't have to harm their precious forests to make their settlements larger, they just need to build more tree houses. And Elves always build Empires, it's just they've always fallen into decline by the time of the story.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2011-02-09, 07:49 PM

Why are we all assume elves have massive population growth? It might take them centuries to have one kid, and it'll take that kid a century to reach maturity.

The_Final_Stand

2011-02-09, 07:56 PM

Dwarfs. Hokey religions and wooden weapons are no match for a steel battleaxe at your side.
:smallcool:

Rob Roy

2011-02-09, 09:36 PM

Why are we all assume elves have massive population growth? It might take them centuries to have one kid, and it'll take that kid a century to reach maturity.
Elves live forever, and one of their Mary-Sue traits is being great at everything. Including fighting. They also do not die of old age. They are going to eventually reach a point where they will have massive populations and then the the other conclusions we've come up with start to apply.

AshDesert

2011-02-09, 10:11 PM

Dwarfs. Hokey religions and wooden weapons are no match for a steel battleaxe at your side.
:smallcool:

This is pure win. Have a cookie sir:

http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~rkhosla/cookie.jpg

I personally vote dwarves, mostly because I just like the idea of a 4 foot ball of muscle, fat, and alcohol over those prissy little twigs that look like they would snap in half if you look at them a little too hard.

hobbitkniver

2011-02-09, 10:13 PM

I've always preferred humans over both.

Although, I'd have to go with elves because they have easily defined gender differences.

Ravens_cry

2011-02-09, 10:35 PM

Dwarfs. Hokey religions and wooden weapons are no match for a steel battleaxe at your side.
:smallcool:
And the sharpest axe is nothing when you are cut down from a distance with a bow, just saying.
Dwarves are generally pretty religious too in many works, including D&D and sundry licensed novels.

Gamerlord

2011-02-09, 10:54 PM

And the sharpest axe is nothing when you are cut down from a distance with a bow, just saying.
Dwarves are generally pretty religious too in many works, including D&D and sundry licensed novels.

Maybe he means Druidic Circles when he means "hokey religions". I doubt he means "IN THE NAME OF MORADIN I STAB YOU IN THE FACE!"

Ravens_cry

2011-02-09, 11:14 PM

Maybe he means Druidic Circles when he means "hokey religions". I doubt he means "IN THE NAME OF MORADIN I STAB YOU IN THE FACE!"
Oh, a good druid knows that a sickle is useful for more then just cutting the mistletoe off the oak trees, if you take my meaning.:smallamused:

Lord Raziere

2011-02-09, 11:58 PM

Oh, a good druid knows that a sickle is useful for more then just cutting the mistletoe off the oak trees, if you take my meaning.:smallamused:

a good engineer knows cannons and catapults are designed for just one purpose, one they do well :smallbiggrin:

Rob Roy

2011-02-10, 12:11 AM

a good engineer knows cannons and catapults are designed for just one purpose, one they do well :smallbiggrin:
A good Dwarf knows that magma powered artillery does that purpose better.

Lord Raziere

2011-02-10, 12:13 AM

A good Dwarf knows that magma powered artillery does that purpose better.

The best dwarf knows that its best to just to convert the whole darn volcano into a elf city-destroying doom cannon of lava :smallwink:

Rob Roy

2011-02-10, 12:24 AM

The best dwarf knows that its best to just to convert the whole darn volcano into a elf city-destroying doom cannon of lava :smallwink:
The Armok knows that kill elves is for lesser dwarves and that you should instead try and conquer Hell. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=65024.0) :smalltongue::smallcool:

Zaydos

2011-02-10, 12:25 AM

The best dwarf knows that its best to just to convert the whole darn volcano into a elf city-destroying doom cannon of lava :smallwink:

No the best dwarf tells him to go take that crazy to the gnomes, puts on some armor and shields and moves out. To kill orcs and goblins. Because dwarves are smart enough to know that while the elves are intolerable they are not trying to kill their wives and children; the orcs are.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2011-02-10, 01:41 AM

Elves live forever, and one of their Mary-Sue traits is being great at everything. Including fighting. They also do not die of old age. They are going to eventually reach a point where they will have massive populations and then the the other conclusions we've come up with start to apply.

Well, elves vary from never dying to being quite longevitous; immortal elves, like Tolkein's, sail off to the grey lands or have some other way out of this, usually.

Also, if they're great at everything, aren't they, by definition, great at coming up with solutions to avoid the problems associated with massive populations? They'll probably just grow bigger and bigger trees up to the atmosphere, then find some magical space travel and colonize the universe.

Also, ITT: People explain how elves are mary sues, but dwarves are better at everything that isn't sutpid and more sympathetic.

Zaydos

2011-02-10, 01:56 AM

Also, ITT: People explain how elves are mary sues, but dwarves are better at everything that isn't sutpid and more sympathetic.

They aren't, and they aren't.

I prefer dwarves to elves, both in Norse myth and D&D but that's not because they're better. In Norse myth you don't get much about the elves other than they are mystical and somewhere between men and the Aesir. The dwarves made Mjolnir and all the cool stuff. In D&D dwarves have better explored fluff while elves have either: book of cool new elven abilities (this is 2e when elves were better than everyone already) or Races of the Wild which took the bad start of 2e's Complete Book of Elves and then ran with it on less room to do so (and actually rather did better). Dwarves got the Complete Book of Dwarves (which was so awesome it made me buy the Complete Book of Elves just hoping it would be anywhere near as good), and Races of Stone (which made me buy the Races series; in both cases I was disappointed). Actually till Complete Book of Dwarves I didn't like dwarves too much, I'd played one once when I was also playing a wizard. Afterward they became my favorite race (dethroning elves), and I still kind of want a 2e dwarf campaign. They have since been dethroned by dragons because they're dragons.

Dwarves are better paladins, and at drinking booze, mining, and fighting orcs and goblins (you know what dwarves are supposed to be good at). Elves are better archers, wizards, and with the natural world in general. Humans are Mary Sues and just plain better despite being stated to be worse in most every fantasy setting.

Ravens_cry

2011-02-10, 03:27 AM

a good engineer knows cannons and catapults are designed for just one purpose, one they do well :smallbiggrin:Yes They do, but neither s much good in a forest with few if any roads.
Dwarves and Elves are both cool, in very different ways.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2011-02-10, 04:32 AM

They aren't, and they aren't

Just for the record, I didn't say "everybody," I said "people."

Both have gotten dealt good and bad hands, in fluff and otherwise.

Conners

2011-02-10, 12:11 PM

This thread is surprisingly popular O_O.

Mostly, if one is unlikeable (as in a story sense, not a knowing-them-in-person sense), the author/writer/whatever has done a poor job. I like them both, if done well.

Generally, though, I seem to not relate well to dwarves, most of the time--possibly because they're short and hairy :smallconfused:...? (Either way, not using them is different from not liking them)

grimbold

2011-02-10, 12:15 PM

elves now and forever are my literary favorites

TheArsenal

2011-02-12, 05:13 PM

ZombyWoof

2011-02-13, 03:42 AM

I vote Elder Scrolls Dwarves (mostly because they were probably a subspecies of elves).

Though the real reason is one day one of them got bored and made 2 experiments (or was it just the one...): he decided to a) make a god, and b) transcend his entire race into godhood.

He definitely succeeded on the first (which later spawned 4 demi-gods) and quite possibly succeeded on the second. But no one knows because they can't find the buggers.

Incompleat

2011-02-13, 05:38 AM

Norse dwarves, definitely.

Tolkien style dwarves are also interesting, but I really dislike how Gimli has become the stereotypical dwarf.

What's the deal about axes, for example? For a short, underground-living race, that does not seem a very sensible choice of weapon: you need space to swing them, after all, and in a narrow tunnel you would probably risk hurting your allies. It does not bother me that a famous dwarf liked to use axes, but it makes no sense for that be the standard dwarven weaponry - and indeed, according The Hobbit it was not.

I do not really know all that much about military matters, but I think that modern fantasy-style dwarves, with their strength, discipline and lower center of mass, would make formidable pikemen instead - especially since the longer reach of their weapon would negate their main disadvantage.

And since when dwarves must be alcoholics? If I remember correctly, shortly before reaching Moria Gimli mentions that he is looking forward to having some dwarven beer, but that's about it as far as dwarves and alcohol are concerned.

And do not get me started on the LOTR movie dwarves...

Sorry, I am ranting. But my point is: between traditional dwarves and traditional elves, I think that dwarves are definitely the cooler ones.

But modern fantasy dwarves, as they are now, are far too boring - elves also suffer from that, of course, but at least their stereotype is more open-ended than "I am a gruff, short Viking who lives underground, speaks with Scottish accent and likes beer". :smallmad:

Ravens_cry

2011-02-13, 02:37 PM

Unfortunatly Elves....Thier Natures mary sues:

Pointy Hats AND they get to work for santa claus....

Ok But honestly, thier magical, but also natural, but also strong, but also great sorcerers, plus master archers...
Well, it depends on the writer, but that doesn't make them Mary Sues.
Dwarves also be Marty Stu's, been better warriors, better craftsmen, better drinkers with better drink, if that's where the story goes. Been powerful doesn't make you a Mary Sue, taking over a story does. And at least in Tolkien, elves were but a small part of a larger tapestry.

Delwugor

2011-02-13, 03:11 PM

Dwarves, dwarves and more dwarves.
One of my biggest disappointments with Mrs. D in 20 years of marriage is when she got me a pack of Elven dice. :smallmad:

Elves have hotter chicks. Gonna go with elves. :smallwink:
Elven women don't have any real curves and a too fragile to keep up with a female dwarf.

Lord Raziere

2011-02-13, 03:24 PM

Well, it depends on the writer, but that doesn't make them Mary Sues.
Dwarves also be Marty Stu's, been better warriors, better craftsmen, better drinkers with better drink, if that's where the story goes. Been powerful doesn't make you a Mary Sue, taking over a story does. And at least in Tolkien, elves were but a small part of a larger tapestry.

and so were dwarves. only one dwarf ever remotely had any effect on the plot.

the point of people liking dwarves is that their civilization in a way makes more sense, at least in my opinion. They are the guys that work as a team, boisterous and tough, of course they would be better warriors, or at least better soldiers- with their teamwork they pull off brilliant battle maneuvers, make great stuff what no single dwarf can and then after that share a drink with each other probably made from generations of dwarven ale scientists working together to make the best ale possible and celebrate all they achieved at the bar.

Dwarves in short are basically the embodiment of Progressive Masculine Enlightenment.

Elves in contrast is this apparently super-advanced society that also reveres nature while no one really seems to work for anything, yet also not really that much advanced cause they are still using swords and bows like the humans they claim they are superior to, so there is clearly something wrong there. :smalltongue:

Ravens_cry

2011-02-13, 04:24 PM

Mina Kobold

2011-02-13, 04:48 PM

Ones achievements in the technology of making war is hardly the only measure of advancement. Considering that Tolkien fought in the trenches of World War 1, you can see why he would think quite the opposite in fact.
Anyway, in stereotypical fantasy, no one is making any kind of advances, not elves, nor dwarves, nor humans.
And yes, Medieval Stasis is a trope that bugs me quite a bit, considering you had to get to that quasi Renaissance/ Late Medieval Europe technology level somehow.

The gods did it? :smallsmile:

Makes sense to me, why turn to technology when magic and divine beings can do it better (Not saying modern science can't replicate their deeds but medieval science certainly cannot)

Those same gods may also prefer the world as it is and thus we now have an explanationn for what happened to the poor archmages that had that researched the spells for that ancient tome. :D

Ravens_cry

2011-02-13, 05:01 PM

The gods did it? :smallsmile:

Makes sense to me, why turn to technology when magic and divine beings can do it better (Not saying modern science can't replicate their deeds but medieval science certainly cannot)

Those same gods may also prefer the world as it is and thus we now have an explanationn for what happened to the poor archmages that had that researched the spells for that ancient tome. :D
Magic in how it is often represented is still capable of being scientifically analysed. Its laws may not be our laws, but they are still laws. But you rarely see better or more efficient magic. In some books, gods, or other beings, do indeed explicitly help keep things stagnant, but this is hardly always the case.

Mina Kobold

2011-02-13, 05:06 PM

Magic in how it is often represented is still capable of being scientifically analysed. Its laws may not be our laws, but they are still laws. But you rarely see better or more efficient magic.

Well, the sun god say that the orc god send a monster and ate the arch-mage whille he was trying to do that, so we ust fight the orcs!

Or at least, that's what I assume happens. The gods won't like any mortal getting too powerful and those who will are being twarthed by the other gods, the demons and the random monsters making research difficult for any wizard who tries. Add to that plans spanning the rise and fall of empires ad you should price yourself lucky you are even in medieval stasis. :smallsmile:

Gamerlord

2011-02-13, 05:11 PM

Ravens_cry

2011-02-13, 05:15 PM

Well, the sun god say that the orc god send a monster and ate the arch-mage whille he was trying to do that, so we ust fight the orcs!

Or at least, that's what I assume happens. The gods won't like any mortal getting too powerful and those who will are being twarthed by the other gods, the demons and the random monsters making research difficult for any wizard who tries. Add to that plans spanning the rise and fall of empires ad you should price yourself lucky you are even in medieval stasis. :smallsmile:
Which begs the question of, why Medieval Stasis? There was quite a few advances in medieval times, crop rotation, an efficient horse collar, gunpowder, flying buttresses, to name a few. If the gods wanted to keep people down, why not Stone Age Stasis? Why allow people magic at all?

Maybe magic interferes with technology?
The technology of the Middle Ages was still technology.

Gamerlord

2011-02-13, 05:23 PM

The technology of the Middle Ages was still technology.

Maybe it only messes around with sufficiently advanced technology? Okay that makes no sense nevermind...

Zaydos

2011-02-13, 05:26 PM

Which begs the question of, why Medieval Stasis? There was quite a few advances in medieval times, crop rotation, an efficient horse collar, gunpowder, flying buttresses, to name a few. If the gods wanted to keep people down, why not Stone Age Stasis? Why allow people magic at all?

The technology of the Middle Ages was still technology.

Prometheus did it.

Okay more seriously, you could blame it on a Prometheus like figure who stole such knowledge from the gods in the first place. Or perhaps the gods are only now getting nervous of technology because it is beginning to near industrialization which brings with it the ability to reshape the world like the gods and that is the only technology they are jealous of.

As for magic; a fallen celestial or a demon did it. Or dragons.

Now can we get back to bashing elves and dwarves; it's fun to watch (tbh I love them both and they are both sues if done badly).

Mina Kobold

2011-02-13, 05:31 PM

Ravens_cry

2011-02-13, 05:31 PM

Maybe it only messes around with sufficiently advanced technology? Okay that makes no sense nevermind...
Indeed, the physical principles behind even ancient technology are quite complex, not to mention living systems, so what counts as 'advanced' technology is pretty arbitrary.

They want many followers and to give mortals teh power to fight in the petty squabbles between themselves?

Makes sense with the Greek pantheon so why not some Fantasy ones.
The late medieval cut off is still quite arbitrary. What's stop one god from giving his followers a bigger stick to wack his rivals followers with and visa versa in a deity driven arms race?

Mina Kobold

2011-02-13, 05:42 PM

The late medieval cut off is still quite arbitrary. What's stop one god from giving his followers a bigger stick to wack his rivals followers with and visa versa in a deity driven arms race?

Nothing, really.

Except that any follower with too much power may turn on their god and try to take the throe themself, or if they attract too much attention to their share of followers then the gods on the opposing side may send their followers agaisnt it because of that and you'd end up with only ruins of an empire's glory as the gnomes or suchwhat run pillaging through teh streets of your glorious capital.

Not syaing there couldn't be chaneg, eventually, but it would be hard to maintain and spread such knowledge in such a world. :smallsmile:

Zaydos

2011-02-13, 05:50 PM

On the subject of elves and Medieval Stasis I've had worlds where the elves developed in ~3000 years (from non-sentience) medieval technology (to put this in perspective the Agricultural Revolution happened somewhere from 8000 to 5000 years ago so they advanced at least twice as fast as humans) and invented magic from scratch. Then the dragons woke up and the elves and the dragons started fighting. Exactly what levels of war magic was developed I never detailed but the gods finally stepped in because it was about to destroy the world. They capped dragons at Great Wyrm (instead of full immortality and unlimited age categories), humanoids at below epic levels (although gods could boost you up from 20th to 21st, but it required a direct act of god), and magic and technology at pre-war levels with only slow growth.

Edit: And what stops a god from giving his followers bigger sticks? Reality is a game to them; it's against the rules. You give your followers a bigger stick and you aren't allowed to play anymore.

Ravens_cry

2011-02-13, 05:55 PM

Nothing, really.

Except that any follower with too much power may turn on their god and try to take the throe themself, or if they attract too much attention to their share of followers then the gods on the opposing side may send their followers agaisnt it because of that and you'd end up with only ruins of an empire's glory as the gnomes or suchwhat run pillaging through teh streets of your glorious capital.

Not syaing there couldn't be chaneg, eventually, but it would be hard to maintain and spread such knowledge in such a world. :smallsmile:
The god gave them the power, why can't they take it away from them, especially if the bigger stick is magical?.

Mina Kobold

2011-02-13, 06:12 PM

The god gave them the power, why can't they take it away from them, especially if the bigger stick is magical?.

That's divine magic, the arcane kind os quite often different. The gods may know about it and may even have attained their godhood through it but they do not always control it.

As such it is dangerous to them but they know that without it they will either be at disadvantage and/or have their followers turn to other sources of power. :smallsmile:

ZombyWoof

2011-02-13, 06:51 PM

There *IS* wildly more efficient magic. That's why you have level 20 wizards.

The thing is people see these midevil settings like D&D and go, "Ah, my character got to level 15, so that's the norm, right?" Well you're vastly superior to something like 99% of the D&D population from the get-go just by being a PC. Then as you gain levels you become better than more and more of the population, since probably 90% or so of the PC population are level 1, and then tiering down forever and ever.

And there are still caps on advancement. That's why you haven't seen a much more efficient horse collar in the past 200 or so years, that's why bridges are still built relatively the same over the past 50 or so years, and that's why boats haven't undergone significant advancement in that time either.