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Siege Tower
2011-02-06, 10:49 PM
I'm working on a new campaign for my group and this time 'round it's going to be war themed. The one problem i'm having is the final encounter. I'm planning for the ending to be something along the lines of a demon summoned by one side as a last resort. So the ending would be an entire army against this one creature.

I've been skimming through Hero's of Battle but there doesn't seem to be any mention of trying to take down a single creature. Are there any premade rules for how to go about this?

Another problem I'm having is thinking of a way for soldiers to be killed by the hundreds but keeping the PCs safe and still engaged. The four PCs should be around level 8 at this point.

Lateral
2011-02-06, 11:06 PM
Hey, you stole my idea! :smalltongue:

...Aaanyway. You can keep the PCs engaged while still killing mooks by the truckload by making the monster a Zelda-style boss- that is, make him far stronger than the PCs but give him a complex weakness the PCs use to defeat him that the NPCs aren't using.

Talbot
2011-02-07, 12:54 AM
Ludicrously high HP, but no damage reduction and low AC. Group the soldiers together in groups of 100 or 1000 for rolling purposes. Basically, make it in the PC's best interests to keep the army from getting decimated as long as possible, as otherwise it'll take them far too long to work their way through the thing's HP.

JaronK
2011-02-07, 03:04 AM
Eh, if the PCs have a single Bard it could be game over. Heck, if the army has bards it's game over. One bard with Dragonfire Inspiration for each element using Masterwork War Drums, even at level 1, makes all those little archers shockingly deadly. After all, even if you're only hitting on a 20 a thousand archers will land a heck of a lot of hits. Imagine 1000 Fighter 1s with Rapid Shot, all of whom get +10d6 damage per shot (2d6 fire, 2d6 acid, 2d6 cold, 2d6 sonic, 2d6 electricity), unloading on the poor thing. Even if it's immune to the fire and acid, and they're only hitting on 20s (they might as well shoot from max range), you're looking at 2100 damage per round. Blam.

JaronK

Aharon
2011-02-07, 05:50 AM
@JaronK
As Kaelik pointed out in that other thread, mooks usually don't stand a chance against high level spells specifically designed for killing mooks, like earthquake (9th level) or circle of death (5th level?).

Plus, I agree with his objection that NPC-armys are assumed to be made from NPC-classes. You won't have 1000 Fighter one with rapid shot, you will be lucky if you get 1000 Warriors, half of them with rapid shot. This may differ from game to game, however.

Plus, you're ignoring the possibility that the demon has concealment (blur or invisibility).


@Siegetower
I recommend using a variant of the mob rules designed by oslecamo found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179).

Aidan305
2011-02-07, 07:03 AM
Essentially designate two areas in the battlefield. Whenever the demons' turn comes up roll a couple of dice a vivdly describe how it takes out another massive swathe of soldiers.

Naturally this is taking up most of the attention of the soldiers so there will actually be very few focusing on the PCs.

In addition, as any LARPer can tell you, a big battle is more like a big crush where the two lines meet. You're not going to have much time to focus on who you're attacking unless you're skirmishing, in which case it's pretty much one-on-one.

Overall, simply describe what's going on in most of the battle except those parts where the PCs are directly involved.

JaronK
2011-02-07, 09:22 AM
@JaronK
As Kaelik pointed out in that other thread, mooks usually don't stand a chance against high level spells specifically designed for killing mooks, like earthquake (9th level) or circle of death (5th level?).

Plus, I agree with his objection that NPC-armys are assumed to be made from NPC-classes. You won't have 1000 Fighter one with rapid shot, you will be lucky if you get 1000 Warriors, half of them with rapid shot. This may differ from game to game, however.

Doesn't really change the point. 1000 Warriors, half with Rapid Shot, would still average at 1575 damage. Concealment would reduce that damage proportionally, but even total concealment yields 762 damage per round... he's still dead in the first volley. And note the range these guys can do this at... 1500 feet with longbows, well beyond the range of most spells. Earthquake isn't doing squat here. Heck, even Experts and Commoners can do this, as proficiency doesn't matter (you're hitting on 20s anyway). One way or another, only wind wall's going to save this guy... in which case all the party really needs to do is paint the target and dispel the wall. One Glitterdust + Dispel Magic and it's over. And note I haven't even included the base damage of the arrows themselves here, nor damage boosts from basic (non dragonfire) Inspire Courage, so the damage is actually even higher. Heck, an army of 1000 Commoners with Longbows will kill this guy in one round if they know what square to shoot at and have that bardic support. And woe be this demon if the party has access to a Bard higher than first level...

JaronK

Aharon
2011-02-07, 09:51 AM
Actually, it would depend on the type of demon. Tanar'ri get immunity to electricity and fire, acid and cold resistance 10.

Loumara get immunity to acid, electricity and fire as well as cold resistance 10, but as they are incorporeal, non-magical weapons won't be able to harm them anyway.

Obyrith get resistance to acid, electricity, fire and cold 10.

In any case, these resistances greatly reduce the damage you assume. In the fight against a Loumara, in particular, the army won't be able to support the group in any noteworthy way.

The Glyphstone
2011-02-07, 09:54 AM
Some demons can be spellcasters as well, and there's plenty of magic that further augments their resistances/immunities.

Jayabalard
2011-02-07, 10:05 AM
Plus, you're ignoring the possibility that the demon has concealment (blur or invisibility).Seems much more likely to me that he'll blot out the sun.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-07, 10:07 AM
IIRC, there's a book(Complete Champion) with rules for directing entire squads fire and the like at once. Useful. You ain't gonna roll for each archer.

Note that things like Balors will carve great swaths of destruction though even ludicrously large armies. Blasphemy is pretty wicked. A Bebilith might be about right. DR 10, so while it'll take some damage from massed troops...it's still going to steamroll quite a lot of them. Also, it has cleave. It's also huge, which I would say is essential to the image of the thing.

However, PCs should be able to take it on.

Lord Vampyre
2011-02-07, 10:20 AM
Here is my problem with throwing an army against an epic level creature. Any epic level creature worth half their salt will cause an automatic morale check by the army. Generally, this will cause half of the army to run on first sight of the creature. With half the army already running, the second half will half to make a second morale check as their buddies head for the hills. In the end you'll only end up with maybe a few hundred diehard warriors (assuming a massive army ranging in the tens of thousands).

Now, lets forget the general initial morale checks. If the creature is capable of taking out huge swaths of mooks out at a time with little effort, and the army doesn't feel like they are able to make a dent in the beast you end up with the same scenario. Mooks don't throw their lives away when they don't see any hope at success unless their some sort of elite force.

This is why the final battle is usually left up to the PCs to handle. Your better off just making the final creature something the PCs have to take care of, or else game over.

Jayabalard
2011-02-07, 10:33 AM
hmm, not sure if this would be helpful ... but I remember having a suppliment for mass combat rules in 1e AD&D (that also worked for basic D&D) that involved both unit based combats and heroes; I think it was revised for 2e.

Had to go digging a bit, because I couldn't even remember the name of it, just that it came in a box and had a bunch of markers that came with it. Battlesystem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlesystem) was the name; it wasn't specifically a AD&D product, though it was made by TSR to be used with D&D/AD&D or even standalone.

I found some notes on a D20 conversion (http://www.superdan.net/battlsys.html) for it, so someone has at least tried to use it with 3e.

The main idea (as I recall) is that units dealt damage based on their total remaining hit dice, and as they dealt damage they effectively removed whole HD from their targets.

Aharon
2011-02-07, 10:58 AM
@Tyndmyr
I think the book you're referring to isn't Complete Champion, but Heroes of Battle. The OP already uses the rules in this book.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-07, 10:59 AM
The PCs don't have to engage the epic monster directly, there's a bunch of casters in the enemy fortress concentrating to maintain the summon and once they've all been killed the creature will return to its home plane. The enemy army should have some soldiers still guarding their fortress, and the demon conveniently knocked a hole in their wall on its way out to engage the PCs' allies. The PCs can run around fighting the occasional scout/straggler while the army gets slaughtered by the beast, dodging behind obstacles when it turns toward them to avoid attacks and maybe even running between its legs to get past it into the fortress. The enemy spellcasters can be in different rooms so they'll take a bit more time to kill, each could be a unique and interesting miniboss encounter itself and maybe they can free a captured NPC Healer after half of them to get patched up.

Maybe after killing a few of them their control over the monster will be diminished and it will be killing anyone it wants. On their way to fight the next spellcaster the PCs run out onto the castle wall only to be facing dozens of elite soldiers, but then the demon reaches over and crushes half of them in one blow, then brushes the rest off the side to their deaths. The PCs will be untouched because they were still standing in the doorway and the way is now clear.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-07, 11:36 AM
@Tyndmyr
I think the book you're referring to isn't Complete Champion, but Heroes of Battle. The OP already uses the rules in this book.

Awesome. Yeah. Still, you want to go substantially sub-epic for the baddie, if you want the PCs to be able to engage it. They will likely have first round advantage, because the monster won't immediately know they're the biggest threats...but even so it's eventually going to come down to them having to slay it.

And if it's epic, at level 8, that's not a thing unless they are massively optimized.

NichG
2011-02-07, 12:44 PM
This kind of thing has been happening a lot in my current campaign since the PCs are traveling with an army. Mostly I've done it with the army giving sort of cinematic aid and bonuses to PC actions, but not actually doing much of the killing. Things like:

- The creature is auto-flanked as long as the army is in play, helping the party rogue.

- The army occasionally eats some of the creature's actions

- The army provides a morale or aid-another bonus to the party

- Occasional beneficial effects come in from army casters - PCs get hit by blanket heals, buffs, etc

If you want to do it more as a mechanical simulation, I'd suggest treating an army like a Hecatonchieres - it has tons of attacks, but can only direct a portion at the enemy at once. Otherwise to avoid the damage problem that JaronK mentioned you pretty much have to give the creature AC to be only hit on 20s by the mooks, DR to ignore non-crits, and SR to avoid magic missile mosquito-death.

One way to do it would be if the creature is some giant Lavos thing that has multiple independently acting parts, and the army keeps some of the parts busy while the PCs go for the weak spot. If the army falters or is pushed back/killed in droves by an AoE, those independent parts get to attack the PCs in tandem with whatever the main body is doing.

An inversion of what I've been saying (which has mostly been geared to setting the PCs up to have the kill) is to make the creature very fortified against the army but, as was suggested, with gadzooks of hitpoints (50000+). Then make its fortifications subject to destruction at key points by the PCs. So the way it goes then is, the army just can't scratch the guy until the PCs take out the defenses, at which point the army surges in and takes it out with their 2500+ damage a round.

Siege Tower
2011-02-07, 04:19 PM
Thank you all so much! You guys have given me some great ideas of how to go about this. Hopefully all will go well when I end up running it.