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Fawsto
2011-02-07, 10:58 AM
Hey guys,

Here's the deal: I am to begin playing 4.0 ed tomorrow, so I am looking into making a Defender for the party.

What's your sugestion? I am thinking about the Paladin, but I don't know what route should I take: Strenght or Charisma...


I can have access to a lot of splatbooks, but going core should be more reliable.

Thanks guys,

Loren
2011-02-07, 11:05 AM
It should be a huge deal either way.
Note that your mark is driven by Charisma, so you will want some either way. If your into max mining you want Charisma, but you don't need strength.

nightwyrm
2011-02-07, 11:07 AM
Well, if you're going PHB only (the term core as applied to 4e is problematic) a paladin would be a bit underpowered. You really want to include at least Divine Power so paladins get more support. But otherwise, a paladin is perfectly fine. Str pals tends do more damage but Cha pals are more leader-ish.

Do you know what classes other players are playing?

NMBLNG
2011-02-07, 11:09 AM
Any defender will work. Some might work better than others, depending on the rest of the party, but as long as you don't make a hybrid you'll be fine.

That said, everyone is going to ask what you have in your party. If you want the 'best' defender, it's going to depend on how tough and how many melee characters there are. But a Paladin can still be good.

So what kind of Paladin do you want? A CHA-based Paladin will have a slightly better mark punishment, and will have access to leader powers. A STR-Paladin will be better at laying the smackdown on monsters.

Also, go look at the Paladin's Handbook on the WoTC forums.

Edit:
Ninja'd. Yeah, we need to know what else is in your group if you want CharOp kind of advice.

Fawsto
2011-02-07, 11:10 AM
@ Loren and nightwyrm

So, if I focus on CHA, STR and CON, will I do alright?

@ nightwyrm

No... I don't know what they are playing... However, the chances are that I am the only Defender around, so I want to do my work properly.

NMBLNG
2011-02-07, 11:13 AM
If you focus on CHA, STR, and CON, you will probably spread yourself out too thin. You probably want to focus on Strength OR Charisma, then Wisdom, then Constitution.

You have enough HP/Surges that you don't need that much an investment in CON.

Loren
2011-02-07, 11:22 AM
Sure
You could also focus cha, wis, and con. Strength helps some powers, but you can get around not have above average.
The joy of 4E is that there are typically multiple paths to legit characters. I highly recommend looking a the classes powers before choosing abilities. The powers are what the character can do, so pickout what you want your character to do then figure out the numbers to optimize you doing of it. Also take time to familiarize yourself with the powers that automatically come with the class (divine challange, channel divinity, and lay on hands, in the case of a paladin) as it's easy to focus on the attacks miss an important part of the character.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-07, 11:29 AM
I am thinking about the Paladin, but I don't know what route should I take: Strenght or Charisma...
Charisma, hands down. They are both a better defender and a better damage dealer.

Also, if you're using PHB1 only, the paladin has some issues. Basically, the PHB1 paladin is mostly a striker, since it lacks the "stickiness" to defend properly. The Divine Power book fixes this.

Finally, you should focus on two ability scores, not three. Either cha/wis or str/wis. Of course you should put some points in con for the hit points and healing surges, but don't focus on it. That goes for every build, not just paladins.

Loren
2011-02-07, 11:35 AM
As a cultural note, splat books tend not to have negative connotations for most 4E groups. Even Dragon is much better regarded.

Galdor Miriel
2011-02-07, 12:20 PM
The beauty is you can make anything work I have a dwarf paladin

str 20
Con 8
dex 14
int 10
wis 11
cha 16

He is totally viable even with low hit points and low surges and even the low wisdom. One of the things with 4E is that optimizing is easy, the challenge I like is doing well with a non optimized character like this, its a lot of fun. I think with this system you can choose your role play elements and then try and make the powers and abilities get you there without being ineffective. IN fact it is hard to be ineffective.

GM

Eorran
2011-02-07, 01:22 PM
If you're not locked into the Paladin already, I find I love the Warden. I've had a Goliath Warden soak something close to 250% of his HP in damage in a single fight without dying (he did briefly drop below 0hp, once, but got better). Fighter does better than any defender I know for preventing monsters getting past, but Warden is the best at absorbing damage.

My experience with Paladins is they're a little of everything; some Leader abilities via Lay on Hands, some Defender with their Challenge, some Striker with a few high [W] dailies. (I got nothing for Controller). I like Paladins best in a small party, where multiple role-filling is needed.

Mando Knight
2011-02-07, 01:41 PM
The beauty is you can make anything work I have a dwarf paladin

str 20
Con 8
dex 14
int 10
wis 11
cha 16
...Those are rolled stats, right? There's no way a Dwarf can get those stats otherwise.

Anyway, I recommend that if you're going to play a Str-Paladin, you go with a Dragonborn and (before racial modifiers) put 16 in Str, and 14s in Cha and Wis, then arrange the other three stats how you like them. Since they're still the only Str/Cha race, Dragonborn make the best (at least, stat-wise) Strength and Mixed Paladins. If you want to make a more offensive Paladin, use a Longtooth Shifter (PHB2) for its Str/Wis boost and take Ardent Vow (Divine Power) instead of Lay on Hands, though your Charisma should still start at at least 14.

Otherwise, for a Charisma-only Paladin, I'd recommend the Half-Elf and bolster Con a bit (don't dump your Str below 10, though... you'll regret it if the DM decides to use Encumbrance rules, and you'll be taking a penalty to Athletics as it is) instead of Strength, though Wisdom should be your secondary score. Take Virtuous Strike (Divine Power), otherwise you'll not be able to make Melee Basic Attacks.

gourdcaptain
2011-02-07, 03:24 PM
Charisma paladin. No questions asked. Strength paladins get kinda cruddy powers by comparison, while Charisma implement powers make the Paladin actually have a nice niche in the defender market. As stated before, your stats should go with Cha, then Wis, then Con focuses.

I've played a Chaladin for about a year straight in a 4e game (LV 4-11) and things of note:
1. Take Virtuous Strike - you need a MBA.
2. Your worst enemy is water or ladders. Bloody -4 armor check penalty.
3. The LV 2 utility power Virtue is your friend - being able to spend a surge every combat without dipping into your Lay on Hands for the day makes you much more self sufficient.
4. Look into the Call Celestial Steed power from a recent dragon issue at LV 5 - seriously, that power is really fun.

Tankadin
2011-02-07, 03:36 PM
There is a Half-Orc feat that lets you add your Strength modifier to at least your Divine Challenge damage (if not your Divine Sanction, as well) which makes them better at defending than other Straladins. If the campaign is only thru heroic, then that wouldn't be a bad way to go--you'll hit relatively hard and death is a pretty good way to control monsters.

That said, Hospitaler, Morninglord, and Questing Knight are wicked Paragon Paths and the longer you go the more skewed the powers get towards Chaladins. If the campaign is going to have legs and you want to be a paladin then yeah, go Charisma-Wisdom-Con.

But yeah, the broken record continues with needing to know more about your party. Depending on what kind of support you'll have or need to provide we can give better recommendations. Oh, and Gourd is totally right about Virtue being all kinds of sexy. Starting a fight with a surge-worth of Temp HP helps you absorb those first few rounds of Team Monster using encounters and dailies.

Grogmir
2011-02-07, 03:54 PM
I love the defender classes in 4.0. Getting close in there right in the heart of the tactical melee, while the ranger pretty much stands still.

I don't however like the Paladin, in first form a little unfocused, errata'd really confusing at the table. They arn't simple characters imo.

Fighter, for hitting hard, or Warden, for being hit hard and taking it and my joint favs right now.

Mando Knight
2011-02-07, 04:12 PM
Charisma paladin. No questions asked. Strength paladins get kinda cruddy powers by comparison, while Charisma implement powers make the Paladin actually have a nice niche in the defender market. As stated before, your stats should go with Cha, then Wis, then Con focuses.
Strength Paladins got a lot of help in Divine Power, though, and they have one of the best level 11 Encounter powers, the Champion of Order's Certain Justice. It's a Weapon attack with an additional +4 bonus to the attack roll, and dazes and weakens the target until the Paladin lets go of the mark. No running. No fighting. No opportunity attacks... except for the Champion of Order, who gains free Opportunity Attacks against its Divine Challenge target(s) if they attack someone else, in addition to the normal Divine Challenge damage. A Paladin with this power can lock down anyone short of a handful of Solos (mostly Monster Vault and multi-headed monsters).

There is a Half-Orc feat that lets you add your Strength modifier to at least your Divine Challenge damage (if not your Divine Sanction, as well) which makes them better at defending than other Straladins.
Not quite. Any Paladin can take Mighty Challenge, which lets them add both their Strength and Charisma to Divine Challenge. The Half-Orc feat only allows them to replace the Charisma bonus with Strength, though it does work with both Divine Challenge and Sanction. A mixed Dragonborn Paladin with Charisma as his secondary and Mighty Challenge will generally have a DC/DS damage of only 1 less than the Half-Orc who takes both feats.

MeeposFire
2011-02-07, 04:27 PM
Paladins really need books outside of the PHB. Otherwise you will have problems like terrible melee basic attacks (if you do not boost str), terrible mark punishment (if you boost str), or terrible riders on your powers (if you do not boost wis).

What books do you know you can have? Some of the stuff mentioned thus far are good but only if you can take them. In particular a paladin without divine power is a sad panda indeed. More so than many other classes in the game. If you do not have access to DP I would recommend fighter as they are the best defender in a PHB1 only environment.

Sipex
2011-02-07, 04:39 PM
I would like to point out that if you choose a PHB1 only Paladin you will not suck beyond all comprehensible reason. You will be less effective than a fully optimised Paladin but you'll still be plenty playable.

WitchSlayer
2011-02-07, 05:38 PM
If you're not fully set on playing a paladin and you have access to more than the PHB1, then Wardens are worth a look, they're extremely fun.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2011-02-07, 05:46 PM
I'm loving my swordmage, right now. Largely because I think only mental ability scores are worth having, which somewhat undoes other defenders.

MeeposFire
2011-02-07, 05:52 PM
Defenders are all made fairly well. Assuming you have access to a few books the only defenders with any real complaints are non-shielding swordmages.

Mando Knight
2011-02-07, 05:56 PM
I'm loving my swordmage, right now. Largely because I think only mental ability scores are worth having, which somewhat undoes other defenders.

All three builds of the Swordmage like their physical scores as well... the Entangling Swordmage less so than the other two without selecting related powers, but most of the strong powers for the class have riders that prefer high Str/Con. The Assault can also dispense with Str/Con with Intelligent Blademaster (which, thanks to the Melee Training nerf, is actually a notable feat again), but again, all the riders are based off of those two stats.

MeeposFire
2011-02-07, 06:00 PM
All three builds of the Swordmage like their physical scores as well... the Entangling Swordmage less so than the other two without selecting related powers, but most of the strong powers for the class have riders that prefer high Str/Con. The Assault can also dispense with Str/Con with Intelligent Blademaster (which, thanks to the Melee Training nerf, is actually a notable feat again), but again, all the riders are based off of those two stats.

All assault SMs I have seen all went high on con and int since str gives so little to them and inteligent blademaster is sweet.

Even with the original melee training inteligent blademaster was awesome since it improved your melee basic and gave swordmages a good ranged basic attack with heavy thrown weapons since IBM applies to heavy thrown RBAs. Too bad it does not apply to the thematic dagger. Still my swordmage likes using a javelin just fine.

Foeofthelance
2011-02-07, 06:03 PM
Anyway, I recommend that if you're going to play a Str-Paladin, you go with a Dragonborn and (before racial modifiers) put 16 in Str, and 14s in Cha and Wis, then arrange the other three stats how you like them. Since they're still the only Str/Cha race, Dragonborn make the best (at least, stat-wise) Strength and Mixed Paladins.


I second this. When I build a Paladin, I inevitably go Dragonborn. You get the racial bonuses to Strength and Charisma, which are two of your primary scores, a definite for most classes. On top of that you get the small bonuses to your attacks when bloodied, an almost guaranteed situation for a front line tank. On top of that you get your breath weapon attack, which can be useful for clearing out bad guy minions in a pinch, or just dropping an extra d6 damage on a target to annoy it.

Mando Knight
2011-02-07, 06:17 PM
All assault SMs I have seen all went high on con and int since str gives so little to them and inteligent blademaster is sweet.

I've got a level 8 Assault Swordmage with 16/14/20 Str/Con/Int, and uses that Strength boost... mostly due to two powers: Dual Lightning Strike and Burning Blade. Strength increases his teleport range for the former (and my DM has thrown out some spread-out battles to cope with the high mobility of my SM and another player's Monk) and his bonus damage for the latter (+3 fire damage on everything except for his thrown Farbond Spellblade is pretty good). It still rarely come in to play, though.

kyoryu
2011-02-07, 06:40 PM
As others have said, both Strength-based Paladins, and Cha-based Paladins can be viable. One might be "better" than the other, but in the end, player tactics will probably be more of a difference than the numerical differences.

What'll be different is the role that they play. The Strength-based Paladin will be more effective at taking out enemies, while the Charisma Paladin will be more effective at keeping the party alive through healing abilities.

The Mighty Challenge feat is pretty close to mandatory for Strength Paladins, as it makes your Divine Challenge decent, as opposed to useless.

Be aware of the two types of marks you get, how they differ, and the requirements on each. Divine Challenge and Divine Sanction are *not* the same.

If you're not locked into the Paladin, and want something more straightforward, the Fighter is pretty much the most straightforward Defender in the bunch. Its marking capabilities are incredibly easy, and how to use it strategically is a little more straightforward - without being as mind-numbing as say, Archer Rangers tend to be. Plus, Fighters tend to be decent as secondary Strikers, and more damage is always good, and it's fun throwing out the big numbers on occasion.

MeeposFire
2011-02-07, 06:52 PM
With access to the various books all three paladin types are awesome even balanced paladins (boost str and cha). Those have the nastiest marks especially if they are half orcs.

DMfromTheAbyss
2011-02-07, 07:06 PM
When it comes to defenders in 4rth edition my own observations are as follows...

Paladins work well in small groups.. as they can help fill other roles as well. They are also better against few/solo enemies but don't work as well against large numbers.

Fighters are stickier and better at blocking larger numbers of foes, in fact they are in general better at fullfilling the defender role, however they lack the versatality and leader side of things.. so are better in a large party where they consistantly have healing from other party members.

Swordmages work as a good striker/defender or defender/controller role, are great fun but definately better for a back up defender than a parties bulwark.

Wardens are just plain tough, they have good stand alone survivability, but lack a bit in options. Depending on how you like the fluff definately worth a look, but not for everybody.

Battleminds are brutal if well played, but player skill and situational luck play a role some don't like dealing with. Definately good if you have a crazy rogue who likes to charge off first though.. so yeah situational..


Any of the Defenders CAN work out well, it's a matter of which you'll enjoy playing the most. In my experience 4rth ed isn't so much about individual min-maxing as it is party optimization, tactical thinking and teamwork. So keep your eyes open for how to use your defender abilities (marking etc) and you should do fine.

Mando Knight
2011-02-07, 07:14 PM
With access to the various books all three paladin types are awesome even balanced paladins (boost str and cha). Those have the nastiest marks especially if they are half orcs.
Balanced Paladins are best played by Dragonborn, as I've outlined before. If the Half-Orc tries to play Balance like a DB Paladin, then only his Divine Sanction will beat the Dragonborn's, and his Divine Challenge will lag unless he pays two feats to boost it instead of one. For the same second feat, the Dragonborn can grab Draconic Challenge, which stacks Divine Sanction onto Dragon Breath, or any of the other Paladin feats he wants.

MeeposFire
2011-02-07, 07:20 PM
Actually I think the paladin is one of the few defenders, that is not an essentials class, that actually is good against large numbers of enemies.

Wardens can mark but not punish

Swordmages can only punish one target in general.

Fighters just one too.

Paladins are the only defender of these that can hit a group of enemies with a mark and punish all of them (via divine sanction) since it does not require an action to work unlike the other mark punishments.