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Fawsto
2011-02-07, 11:07 AM
Hi again, guys

I am DMing an adventure in Eberron and one of my players decided to play a Dragon Shaman.

This is great, since Dragon Shamans in Eberron have a ton of interesting stuff to do and to be motivated by.

The thing is, I am using ToB and I've homebrewed a lot of stuff. The Dragon Shaman now looks subpar to everyone else. His firebreath, which he can use every 1d4 rounds, causes 2d6 damage reflex half, while the Swordsage can cause more fire-based damage with his manouvers every 2 rounds.

I've tryed to improve his auras a little and nulify his madness by focusing his powers on CON. Hell, I've given him draconic breath feats from draconomicon (with limitations on how many rounds he can go without using his breath weapon again, of course), but yet the character seems to lack something.

Also, the are no PrCs for Dragon Shamans that I know of...

What would you guys do? There is another way to improve the Dragon Shaman?

Thanks,

subject42
2011-02-07, 11:22 AM
One thing that I did for a player that wanted to play a Dragon shaman was give him Full BAB, access to Marshall Auras, and access to a reduced Dragonfire Adept Invocation progression.

It seemed to work moderately well.

Greenish
2011-02-07, 11:24 AM
Replace it with Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic). Give it an aura or two for free if feeling generous, though they can pick some up with feats.

Amnestic
2011-02-07, 11:31 AM
I was just going to suggest "Gestalt it with the DFA", but I think Greenish's suggestion is probably more balanced.

The Deej
2011-02-07, 11:42 AM
I disagree with replacing or gestalting with DFA. I've played a couple dragon shamans, so I know that the breath weapon isn't meant to be the shaman's primary shtick, like the DFA, the auras are. Really, the biggest thing missing is martial weapon proficinecy, and possibly BAB. Depending on whether or not you have high optimizers, giving the dragon shaman martial weapon proficiency, full BAB, and maybe double draconic aura as a bonus feat at an appropriate level should make the DS on par with the rest of the group.

As a further note, Dragon shamans are already allowed to take martial auras in place of draconic auras. I'm pretty sure that's in dragon magic (or whichever book it is with the draconic aura feat in it, I can't remember and am away from my books right now.)

Tavar
2011-02-07, 11:47 AM
The real problem is that the auras just aren't that good. They're situational, generally weak, and they don't boost things that really could use boosts. Giving them Full BaB and martial prof, yeah, it's nice, but it doesn't fix the class.

Draz74
2011-02-07, 11:51 AM
Yeah, in a game where Tier 3 (e.g. Swordsage) is the desired balance point, it shouldn't take much to bring a Dragon Shaman up to speed. Martial weapon proficiency is a great start ... it's dumb for him not to have that.

I see the class mostly as a Cleric-role class, so I might also accelerate its healing abilities a bit, and maybe allow him to use Cleric scrolls without a UMD check. Also, 2+Int skill points is rather harsh for any non-INT-based class; I say boost 'em all up to 4+Int. You can also give bonus feats (maybe levels 5, 9, 13, and 17, like the Warblade?), which should be breath weapon/aura/draconic-related.

Does he have the Entangling Exhalation feat? That goes a long way to make the breath weapon feel like a real combat effect.

Fawsto
2011-02-07, 01:42 PM
Crap! I had totally forgotten about giving him more skillpoints! I will do this. Not even the Fighter has 2+int anymore. I feel sad for the class o.O

I was thinking about spreading the benefits of Dragon Disciple trough the 20 levels. Specially because there are no PrCs for Dragon Shamans.

@ Draz74

I already gave him bonus draconic breath feats. The martial weapons seem nice, but I don't know if I should give full BAB if I do spread the benefits of Dragon Disciple trough the Class.

Having a Multi-attacking ubber-strong character around maybe a problem...

Waker
2011-02-07, 02:38 PM
Another thing you could do that would be small but somewhat useful would be to give him scaling natural attacks. He gets a 2 claw attacks (1d3) and a bite attack (1d4) at level one, then at level 4 they get improved to 1d4/1d6 respectively, level 8 they further improved to 1d6/1d8 and so on.
You could also say that he can qualify for feats that require him to be a sorcerer or dragon-blooded. Say that the Totem dragon choice doubles as Draconic Heritage from Complete Arcane and take the feats in the chain as bonus feats.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-07, 02:45 PM
You might also want to boost the aura progression, so it doesn't just stop at level 9. I actually did some small mods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130856) to it before.

The Draconic Heritage chain also sounds like a good idea. Maybe add Metabreath feats to the bonus feat list?

Last Laugh
2011-02-07, 02:50 PM
Another thing you could do that would be small but somewhat useful would be to give him scaling natural attacks. He gets a 2 claw attacks (1d3) and a bite attack (1d4) at level one, then at level 4 they get improved to 1d4/1d6 respectively, level 8 they further improved to 1d6/1d8 and so on.
You could also say that he can qualify for feats that require him to be a sorcerer or dragon-blooded. Say that the Totem dragon choice doubles as Draconic Heritage from Complete Arcane and take the feats in the chain as bonus feats.

I'd use that class. Sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Do they ever get a flyspeed?

Tavar
2011-02-07, 02:51 PM
The problem there is that most of the feats only work if you give up spell slots.


But that's not the real problem. Patching a class can work, but you're more likely to come up with something like the monk; a mix of abilities, none of which synergize. The question is, what does this class aim to do, and how is it failing to do so? Then you address that point, not just simply pile on other features.

Waker
2011-02-07, 03:01 PM
I'd use that class. Sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Do they ever get a flyspeed?
Sadly not until level 19.
I suppose that could be something else you could change though, give them their wings earlier. I mean a Dragonborn can start with wings without a level adjustment. Say at level 3 they can glide, at level 9 they gain the limited flight of a dragonborn, at level 15 they can fly without tiring.

Yes, several of the draconic heritage feats do require spellcasting to be usable. What if Draconic Legacy (CArc) granted the spells listed as SLA a limited number of times a day, using your Dragon Shaman levels as your caster level.

Draz74
2011-02-07, 05:19 PM
@ Draz74

I already gave him bonus draconic breath feats. The martial weapons seem nice, but I don't know if I should give full BAB if I do spread the benefits of Dragon Disciple trough the Class.

Having a Multi-attacking ubber-strong character around maybe a problem...
Yeah, you'll notice I said nothing about granting full BAB.


But that's not the real problem. Patching a class can work, but you're more likely to come up with something like the monk; a mix of abilities, none of which synergize. The question is, what does this class aim to do, and how is it failing to do so? Then you address that point, not just simply pile on other features.

Hence why I recommend making Dragon Shaman a fully-competent Cleric substitute.

Coidzor
2011-02-07, 05:35 PM
Well, for starters, they should be fully functional and anatomically correct.

So. What are they supposed to do and how are they unable to fulfill said function as it stands?

Their ability to heal as a replacement for cleric as we're lead to believe them to be is lacking, IIRC. So, something needs to be done to rectify that. Only being able to heal something to half HP just doesn't hack it. Might be able to crib the Pally's lay on hand's ability though.

As far as anatomically correct... If they don't already have the dragonblood subtype, allow 'em to get it either level 1 or 3 or 5, around that portion of the character career. If you're going to throw in slowly become a dragon stuff on them, then the feats from Races of the Dragon for growing a dragon tail and growing dragon wings should probably be allowed for them to take after level 1 as part of the transformative process. Maybe progress up to the draconic template rather than half-dragon. Or from draconic at 10th or so to half-dragon near the capstone.

Fawsto: Why are you worried about Totemists when we're discussing dragon shamans? Claw/Claw/Bite isn't really something to be concerned about if that's it... It's still inferior to 2-hander+Bite, after all. ...And Full BAB + a natural weapons routine wouldn't really be that worrisome anyway...

Amnestic
2011-02-07, 05:48 PM
As far as anatomically correct... If they don't already have the dragonblood subtype, allow 'em to get it either level 1 or 3 or 5, around that portion of the character career.

Give them the Dragontouched (DragMagic) feat at level 3. Gives Dragonblood subtype, a couple of small bonuses, and it's two levels later than the Dragonfire Adept to distinguish it and show it's progression rather than straight away.

Psyborg
2011-02-07, 06:35 PM
Some ideas:

Give them the benefits of being a Dragonborn of Bahamut while retaining their previous racial features. If they choose the Heart aspect, their breath weapon becomes usable every 1d4-1 rounds, minimum 1, and the damage stacks with their Dragon Shaman breath weapon.
Allow them to loose their previous racial traits in order to choose a second Aspect from Dragonborn of Bahamut.
If you're not using the first suggestion, they really, seriously, need to get their flight a whole heck of a lot earlier.
Martial weapon proficiency and/or increased BAB.
The healing aura is too slow to be useful in-combat, and only heals to half so it's not useful for healing out of combat. Either increase the amount of FH granted, or allow it to heal up to full. (The latter may be perceived as imbalancing in groups that don't routinely carry multiple wands of lesser vigor.)

The other auras are also not as powerful as they should be for something that's intended as their primary class feature, but I don't have any particular suggestions for improving them.
Allow them to qualify for the Draconic Heritage feats, and give them a slow bonus feat progression (1 every 4-5 levels?) that can be used for Draconic Heritage feats and metabreath feats only.

Thurbane
2011-02-07, 08:22 PM
Here's what I've previously suggested:

Full BAB.
Faster Aura progression.
4 skill points/level, and expand their base skill list.
Bonus Metabreath feats, say 1/4 levels or so.

Zaq
2011-02-07, 10:02 PM
Give them access to maneuvers. Specifically, give them White Raven and Desert Wind, with all of DW's moves changed to match the energy type of the breath weapon. For recovery, they recover maneuvers when they use their breath weapon (1 maneuver per enemy who fails the saving throw, 1 maneuver per 2 enemies who succeed; minimum 1 maneuver recovered). They may also recover maneuvers as a swordsage.

Bam, you have a slightly increased power level, a unique but thematically appropriate set of maneuvers, and a unique recovery method, but without overshadowing the class's existing features.

Thiyr
2011-02-07, 10:42 PM
I found a homebrew sprucing up of the class a while back I've been meaning to try out, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147604). Having the auras is nice, but it also gives an additional boost to you (and just you), as well as a few other perks. Don't know how well that stacks up for you, though.