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View Full Version : [Alignment Discussion]Paladins, Barbarians



TalonDemonKing
2011-02-07, 11:41 AM
So many questions :smalleek:

Lets get some hypothetical situations going here.

1) We have Good guy Paladin who is credit to team. As a Paladin of Pelor, he is Lawful Good.

1a) What constitutes his daily routine as a paladin? Being Lawful, or being Paladin?

Chaotic characters can still follow a daily routine and still be Chaotic. A rogue, for example, could wake up, do his morning exercises, some daily hygine, and even offer a prayer to her deity every morning. A paladin could do the same, yet one is Lawful, and the other is Chaotic.

But in the same bucket, a Paladin going through those motions is no different than a barbarain doing the same. Does a daily routine even justify being lawful?

1a.a) Drunken Master Monks. Should they be chaotic or lawful?

1b) For a Paladin, when does Law trump Good? When does Good trump Law? When do these ideals trump idea's such as self-preservation?

If the law says "Never to steal.", but the Taxes are too high for the Paladin or any commoner's to buy food, does it become okay to steal? The law says no, but a chaotic good character wouldn't even have a thought about 'Right or Wrong'.

If this Paladin is in the Underdark, and near a Drow city, does it become okay to disguise oneself and lie? Doing so would be unlawful, but not doing so would mean certain death (Or imprisonment.) Does the Paladin bust down the doors and "Bring the Light"? Or does the Paladin simply sneak in, and be that 'Gentle ray of warmth'?

1c) Hard choices.

In the book of Exhalted Deeds, there is a picture with two-succubii and a paladin, with the caption along the lines of "A paladin must choose between destroying evil and honoring love."

If a Paladin destroys the Cubi; then they destroyed evil (Yay) but destroyed love (Boo). If the Paladin allows them to live, then he honor's love (yay) but allows them to live (Boo).

Is there a correct choice? Will he be in the 'Okay' either way? Or will he be damned either way? Can a Paladin fall for -him- believing in what's right? If a Paladin falls, can another Deity restore his powers, if what that Paladin belives is in accordance with that new deity? Could a deity support a Paladin that doesn't follow their Dogma to the letter?

I run a campaign where Paladin's will come in contact with Demons (For the purpose of this campaigns, Demons and devils are the same thing). These Demon's are a full, mammal race, and as such, will get hungry, will bleed when cut, will love, will get pregnant, will have kids.

When does it become 'Not good.' to kill? Can a Paladin of Pelor slay a child, if it will grow up to be evil? What about a pregnant woman?

(On the subject of 'Always Evil' races; what if they're -not-? A billion individuals, you're bound to get one or two that simply don't fit the template. What if a succubus had a thing for flower arrangement, and didn't want to "be evil', but maybe get married? Have a child? Have a quiet, peaceful life away from the Abyss? Does the Paladin still slay the Demon? How does this differ from an Orc? Or a Goblin? Can 'Always Evil' races be reedemed (If not full good, at least to neutral?))

2) Let's take a Chaotic Good Barbarian. She is credit to team. She is also a "Noble Savage." Honor, and all that good stuff, which is a common trope for barbarains.

Doesn't "Honor" break "Chaotic" right there?

More to come, but I'm hoping to get a discussion flowing here...

grimbold
2011-02-07, 12:33 PM
wow
long post
however i consider barbarians to be my forté so yeah.
basically chaotic is defined by the spontaneous actions one does. If you are chaotic you can have a schedule but you will be willing to break lotsa rules to do it
if you are lawful you will have a schedule but adhere to law
at least thats how i see it

hamishspence
2011-02-07, 02:26 PM
But in the same bucket, a Paladin going through those motions is no different than a barbarain doing the same. Does a daily routine even justify being lawful?

not really- it might be commoner among Lawful types, but it's not incompatible with Chaos.



1b) For a Paladin, when does Law trump Good? When does Good trump Law? When do these ideals trump idea's such as self-preservation?
BoED tends to go with "Good trumps Law".


If the law says "Never to steal.", but the Taxes are too high for the Paladin or any commoner's to buy food, does it become okay to steal? The law says no, but a chaotic good character wouldn't even have a thought about 'Right or Wrong'.
Tricky. BoVD says "Any child can tell you that stealing is wrong"- but, depending on the DM, if the target is "not entitled" to the goods it holds- a thief, an illegitimate government, and so on, it may "not count as stealing" for these purposes.


If this Paladin is in the Underdark, and near a Drow city, does it become okay to disguise oneself and lie? Doing so would be unlawful, but not doing so would mean certain death (Or imprisonment.) Does the Paladin bust down the doors and "Bring the Light"? Or does the Paladin simply sneak in, and be that 'Gentle ray of warmth'?
BoVD goes with "Lying is not always evil"- however- it is a breach of the Code.
That said, paladins only fall for "gross breaches" so in the right circumstances, it may not be "Fall-worthy".

If a Paladin destroys the Cubi; then they destroyed evil (Yay) but destroyed love (Boo). If the Paladin allows them to live, then he honor's love (yay) but allows them to live (Boo).

Is there a correct choice? Will he be in the 'Okay' either way? Or will he be damned either way? Can a Paladin fall for -him- believing in what's right? If a Paladin falls, can another Deity restore his powers, if what that Paladin belives is in accordance with that new deity? Could a deity support a Paladin that doesn't follow their Dogma to the letter?

I run a campaign where Paladin's will come in contact with Demons (For the purpose of this campaigns, Demons and devils are the same thing). These Demon's are a full, mammal race, and as such, will get hungry, will bleed when cut, will love, will get pregnant, will have kids.
While BoVD argues that "Allowing a fiend to exist, let alone help one in any way, is clearly evil"- this may not be appropriate for most campaigns.



When does it become 'Not good.' to kill? Can a Paladin of Pelor slay a child, if it will grow up to be evil? What about a pregnant woman?
Killing nearly always needs a justification- such as self-defence, defence of others (including defensive war), execution of a being for serious crimes, and so on.

"being evil" generally isn't enough of a justification on its own. In some settings, a third or so of the population on average, will be Evil-aligned- and this will be a mild evil- not warranting on-the-spot attack.

The main principle behind paladins isn't "destroy evil" but "punish those that harm or threaten innocents"- this does not have to take the form of destroying them (which may be excessive depending on the nature of the harm)- and redeeming those who are evil can be a better option, morally.



(On the subject of 'Always Evil' races; what if they're -not-? A billion individuals, you're bound to get one or two that simply don't fit the template. What if a succubus had a thing for flower arrangement, and didn't want to "be evil', but maybe get married? Have a child? Have a quiet, peaceful life away from the Abyss? Does the Paladin still slay the Demon? How does this differ from an Orc? Or a Goblin? Can 'Always Evil' races be reedemed (If not full good, at least to neutral?))
Always Evil, means the creature is born evil- but it doesn't mean its incapable of change. Such beings can indeed be redeemed- the WoTC page had a redeemed succubus.
That said, most mechanics for redeeming creatures, don't work on fiends. In effect, the fiend has to "choose to try to redeem itself".


2) Let's take a Chaotic Good Barbarian. She is credit to team. She is also a "Noble Savage." Honor, and all that good stuff, which is a common trope for barbarains.

Doesn't "Honor" break "Chaotic" right there?
Honor is commonly associated with Law- but Chaotic Good is famous for having a moral code that "while good, may differ from mainstream society."

It's possible for a Chaotic guy to have their own "honor code" but be Chaotic enough in other ways, to be chaotic aligned.