(3.X) Hive-Minded Swarms (Design Theory) (Feat) (Creature)

[DracoDei]

Got a question...

Ok, I was thinking about a creature. Most of the details are irrelevant. Basically all that matters is that it is a hive-mind of diminutive creatures. They can split up to spread out over up to a several hundred foot radius, or come together like a swarm... except why should they BE a swarm when they are a single mind, with human like (or rather fae-like) intelligence. They should be able to cooperate as well the fingers of a single-bodied humanoids hands or the tentacles of an octopus.

Seems to me that an option to change themselves from a swarm to (lead?) mob (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/printthread.php?t=129179&pp=40) (if the numbers standing within inches of eachother are too low to count as a swarm) and/or unit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7325672&postcount=27). The second might require a feat since most people can use utensils (knife and fork, OR chopsticks), but not everyone in the world can touch-type. In any case, to me it just doesn't fly that something with INT 10 can't come up with more adaptable battle-formations etc than something with INT - (such as a swarm of bees). This might apply to some or all previously published intelligent swarm creatures.

So... what do people think? It has been a long time since I looked at the mob and unit templates, and even when I did I didn't analyze them deeply, I simply recognized their awesome and added them to my "stuff I don't want to lose track of" portion of my extended signature.

Some stuff I typed about the individual creature, but decided wasn't relevant to this conversation. I didn't want to lose it though:
The individual bodies don't live more than a few years, but the death of a body is no more harmful than losing a "baby tooth" (and like baby teeth, when the time is very near, sometimes they hasten the process.

High level druid spell to transfuse a single squirrel from one individual to another?

[Fable Wright]

There was an interesting study recently that showed that by mimicking bee-like and ant-like behavior in computer models, they were able to get much more advanced artificial intelligence than otherwise. There is yet some truth to the idea of swarm hive-minds.

My take on the idea: have it so that the swarms have intelligence based on the number of creatures in them, and give them the ability to take feats as a swarm and whatnot. And then let them break apart, getting less intelligence, but more maneuverability, and they can reform later. That's how I would treat it, but the thing is, I'm not really entirely sure what you're asking...

[Gideon Falcon]

I myself attempted to create a low-LA race that was a swarm, working off the premise that they had to compress themself into a semi-solid mass in order to decrease strain on their mind. I don't think it worked all that well, though. This creature, if it could be played as a race, would be sort of like a playable choker; pure gold for several classes, but unusable for others. Incarnum (ironically, this is what I attempted to flavor the race with,), for example, doesn't work if you don't have body slots.

Seriously, who doesn't want to play a swarm?

[DracoDei]

Most important part first...

but the thing is, I'm not really entirely sure what you're asking...
I am asking about the applicability of using the Mob and Unit templates for the creature/race, rather than the swarm template.




Everything Else:

There was an interesting study recently that showed that by mimicking bee-like and ant-like behavior in computer models, they were able to get much more advanced artificial intelligence than otherwise. There is yet some truth to the idea of swarm hive-minds.
Oh, granted a swarm of army ants (the most extreme example I can think of... the ones that build bridges, rafts, and even entire hives from their bodies) is smarter than a single ant, but that is more like the jump from INT - to something approaching INT 1 or 2. Certainly not INT 10.



My take on the idea: have it so that the swarms have intelligence based on the number of creatures in them, and give them the ability to take feats as a swarm and whatnot.
Definitely able to take feats as a swarm...

And then let them break apart,
Be more precise or descriptive here... I am going for a vibe similar to the Rats of NIHM (Movie or Book version, depending on classes taken), but with a single intelligence per "colony", rather than a society of individuals. For another example, see the below mentioned army ants.

getting less intelligence, but more maneuverability, and they can reform later. That's how I would treat it,
I had already decided that the number of individuals in the swarm would effect the intelligence... the twist is that ABOVE a certain level, intelligence starts going down again. So there is basically a "sweet spot" in the number of racial HD the swarm has. This number can vary during play (most obviously when individuals die due to damage).



I myself attempted to create a low-LA race that was a swarm, working off the premise that they had to compress themself into a semi-solid mass in order to decrease strain on their mind. I don't think it worked all that well, though.
Why did it fail? I ask out of desire to help you, and/or idle curiosity, since that doesn't sound anything like the direction I wanted to take this.


This creature, if it could be played as a race, would be sort of like a playable choker; pure gold for several classes, but unusable for others.
Haven't done much with swarms... which classes would be "pure gold"? I would, obviously, need to balance to those. Personally, I am thinking Rogue, but only because you can send an individual body ahead to scout, thus negating all risk against anything but mind-effecting attacks, boosting your Hide score, and avoiding setting off pressure-plates (and you probably aren't going to set off most trip-wires anyway), plus I would probably make it so sneak attack is added to swarm damage against anything without Uncanny Dodge/All-Around Vision, since you obviously are flanking them.


Incarnum (ironically, this is what I attempted to flavor the race with,), for example, doesn't work if you don't have body slots.
You have Body Slots... one set for each individual body:smalleek:... but, at least in my current plan, unless the effect is purely mental, they only benefit that INDIVIDUAL BODYL... so basically you are in deep trouble when it comes to armor/AC items (not that you really need those), Fort and perhaps Reflex save boosters (these might be)... wear both a helm of telepathy and the standard intelligence boosting item (I THINK those share a slot).

OTOH giving them basically unlimited body-slots could be fun if it also included some stricter stacking rules, and something about natural 20's on a to-hit roll, natural 1's on a saving throw, and other such things requiring a roll to see if you lose a body wearing an item, meaning you don't get the benefit until/unless you stop long enough to "loot your own corpse(s)".

In any case you can definitely have 10 teeny-tiny wands, 10 different diminutive daggers, and 30 different teeny-tiny (each with a different Bane property, and made out of different materials) readied at the same time. How many of the daggers you can actually USE might be a different question. That issue is probably covered reasonably well under the Mob and Unit templates, although an option to forgo swarm damage in favor of individual manufactured (or even unarmed in the case of Magic Fang) weapon attacks might be needed. Definitely no more than one scroll+wand+spell cheese (IE you get the same number of actions per turn for most things, you just happen to have the option to deal swarm/mob/unit damage against everyone inside your space as a standard action). Also, DR 1/anything you don't over-come is going to kill your swarm attack... note that buying, for instance, several hundred silver weapons is a perfectly acceptable way to add the [Silver] tag to your damage.


Seriously, who doesn't want to play a swarm?
Well, it gets you some nice immunities at lower levels, but because you would track the number of bodies the character is composed of, even attacks that don't do any hitpoint damage directly still cost you something if the campaign is fast-paced (in slower paced campaigns, without extended periods of combat, replacing individual swarm members is easy).

And I would LOVE to play one of these things when I actually make them... but not for any of the reasons mentioned here.

[Owrtho]

One thing that may be worth determining is what type of hive mind you want to have. For example, you you mean each member is telepathically linked (and if so what is the range), do they use some other method to communicate (such as pheromones). Is there one central mind that has all the intelligence and all the rest are mindless. Is there not actually a hive mind, but instead they all have duplicate minds (thus they think exactly the same and would end up being able to coordinate by knowing what each other one is doing through what it would be doing if in that position). Do they have a split hive mind (The hive mind is split between all the members, but each one doesn't have the entire thing, thus an individual piece only knows certain parts, and if all pieces knowing a specific thing were killed, that knowledge would be lost).


Be more precise or descriptive here... I am going for a vibe similar to the Rats of NIHM (Movie or Book version, depending on classes taken), but with a single intelligence per "colony", rather than a society of individuals. For another example, see the below mentioned army ants.

I think he means something like the cockroaches in this (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/franken_fran/v02/c010/). Where they are intelligent when in a group, but as they spread out they lose intelligence.


Well, it gets you some nice immunities at lower levels, but because you would track the number of bodies the character is composed of, even attacks that don't do any hitpoint damage directly still cost you something if the campaign is fast-paced (in slower paced campaigns, without extended periods of combat, replacing individual swarm members is easy).

That really all depends on the turnover rate of the swarm members and their usual number. For example, there is a type of algae that makes up the base level of the food chain in the place it lives, despite having a smaller population than the subsequent layers of the food chain, due to members reproducing and dying so quickly that it manages to maintain its population.

Owrtho

[DracoDei]

Wow... people really are very helpful with this (not just trying you understand, but succeeding) but just seem to completely skip over what I was trying to ask about.

One thing that may be worth determining is what type of hive mind you want to have. For example, you you mean each member is telepathically linked (and if so what is the range), do they use some other method to communicate (such as pheromones). Is there one central mind that has all the intelligence and all the rest are mindless. Is there not actually a hive mind, but instead they all have duplicate minds (thus they think exactly the same and would end up being able to coordinate by knowing what each other one is doing through what it would be doing if in that position). Do they have a split hive mind (The hive mind is split between all the members, but each one doesn't have the entire thing, thus an individual piece only knows certain parts, and if all pieces knowing a specific thing were killed, that knowledge would be lost).
Telepathy. No loss of memories/skill-ranks/XPs for deaths (although I might put in a "You die of brain-death if you go below X members."






I think he means something like the cockroaches in this (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/franken_fran/v02/c010/). Where they are intelligent when in a group, but as they spread out they lose intelligence.
Nah, this is more like they have to remain in a certain radius, and any bodies outside that radius have returning to that radius alive as their only real goal (within alignment restrictions).




That really all depends on the turnover rate of the swarm members and their usual number. For example, there is a type of algae that makes up the base level of the food chain in the place it lives, despite having a smaller population than the subsequent layers of the food chain, due to members reproducing and dying so quickly that it manages to maintain its population.
They reproduce like squirrels.

Fun-Squicky details that people PROBABLY don't care about at this point:
Minds breed within their bodies to replace losses or grow to a larger size. Breeding between minds means that all litters born of that become the bodies for a new mind. So the bodies are each either male or female, but the minds are all hermaphroditic.

[Norpfang]

use that one prestiege class in Savage species that turns you into a swarm creature

[Hazzardevil]

Most important part first...
Oh, granted a swarm of army ants (the most extreme example I can think of... the ones that build bridges, rafts, and even entire hives from their bodies) is smarter than a single ant, but that is more like the jump from INT - to something approaching INT 1 or 2. Certainly not INT 10.




I know ants can do that sort of thing, to be honest if they can do that and they are nearly impossible to kill if they all focus on one target then I think we should be very scared. Not to mention enough of them cast spells as a sorcerer.

I think the problem of playing as a hive mind is that they are plot proof, They cast sorcerer spells providing there is enough of them and you can't tra[ them easily without killing them.

[DracoDei]

I know ants can do that sort of thing, to be honest if they can do that and they are nearly impossible to kill if they all focus on one target then I think we should be very scared. Not to mention enough of them cast spells as a sorcerer.

I think the problem of playing as a hive mind is that they are plot proof, They cast sorcerer spells providing there is enough of them and you can't tra[ them easily without killing them.

Uh... they only cast spells if they take levels in a spell-casting class. And what is this about "untrapable"? It is called a net (not the weapon) or tricking them into a strong room and closing the door. Are you talking about the "I send a single squirrel ahead to scout" situation? Really, I am not clear on where you are coming from with most of this.