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wayfare
2011-02-07, 01:49 PM
Hey all:

This is a revised version of an idea I had a few months ago. Character Modification Points (CMPs) are (hopefully) a means of enhancing lower-tier classes during character creation. The idea is to give lower tier classes more options during the character creation process, allowing them to buff stats, gain bonus feats, and even take unusual races.

*Disclaimer: The CMP sub-system builds on JaronK's excellent tier system for classes. If you are unfamiliar with it, you should take a look here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

1) CMPs are applied during the character creation process, after your stats are determined (be it by point-buy or rolling).

2) Each player begins play with 12 CMPs, which they can spend on a multitude of features. The 1st use of CMPs is to determine the Maximum Tier Access the character gains.
Maximum Tier Access means exactly that -- once you purchase access to a tier, you can ever gain access to the classes in tiers above what you purchased.

Tier 1: 12 points (all your build points)
Tier 2: 10 Points
Tier 3: 8 Points
Tier 4: 5 points
Tier 5: 2 Points
Tier 6: Free

A character who buys Access to Tier 1 can take ANY classes in the game: He could build a Wizard 7/Beguiler 3/Fighter 10. Or he could go Wizard 20. The only advantages to purchasing Tier 1 access are

1) The freedom to make any build you want
and
2) Access to the most powerful and versatile classes in the game

A character who spends 8 CMPs to purchase access to Tier 3 classes is limited in the classes he can take levels in -- he can never gain levels in Tier 1 or Tier 2 classes. Thus, this character could play a Beguiler 7/Rogue 7/Spellthief 6 but NOT Rogue 17/Wizard 3.

If you have remaining CMPs after choosing your class access, you can spend them on many different enhancements to your character: This is the primary reason you wouldn't purchase Tier 1 access.

Your remaining CMPs can be spent as follows:

1 CMP adds 1 to an attribute
1 CMP grants 1.5 feats (.5 only redeemable if you purchase more than 1 feat)
2 CMPs buys off 1 point of Racial Level Adjustment
1 CMP grants (Level x 500) gp worth of equipment
X CMPs add 1 level X spell slot to the characters spells per day.

Advanced Options

X CMPs add a level X spell to your spell list. If you are a spellcasting class, this need not be a spell from your natural spell list (a Beguiler could learn fireball in this way, a Sorcerer could learn cure light wounds).
If you do not belong to a spellcasting class you gain the ability to cast the spell once per day as a Spell-Like ability. All spell variables treat your character level as your caster level.
You may never spend CMPs on a spell you cannot cast at creation. If a game begins at level 1, the character cannot learn a level 3 spell like fireball.
1 CMP buys access to one level 0 spell. You can use this spell 1 + Intelligence modifer times per day if it is an arcane spell or 1 + Wisdom modifier times per day if it a divine spell.

3 CMPs grant the character limited healing ability. This functions similarly to the paladins lay on hands ability, save that the character can only use this healing upon himself. The character can restore (Constitution Modifier x Hit Dice) health points to himself each day.

CMPs can be spent to augment a familiar, animal companion, or paladin mount in exactly the same way as a PC.

CMPs are NOT spent to take Prestige Classes. Prestige classes are somewhat outside of the tier system, providing a way for players to make cool
changes to their characters even when locked into a tier. Basically, if you meet the reqs for a prestige class, you can take it.

1 CMP increases the characters leadership score by 2. If the character has the leadership feat, this bonus is applied as an external modifier. If he does not hove the leadership feat, he has whatever leadership score this feature gives him. The character may never gain a leadership modifier exceeding twice his level.

2 CMPs increase your effective caster/manifester level by 1. You must declare what this increase modifies -- divine, arcane, or psionic powers.

...more to come

wayfare
2011-02-07, 01:50 PM
Example 1: A Mighty Theurge
Stan is creating a very powerful mystic for a Level 10 campaign that will deal heavily with creatures from beyond the far reaches of space and time.

After rolling his stats (18, 10, 8, 15, 16, 10) Stan decides that a Wizard/Cleric mix can be done. Because both of these classes are Tier 1, Stan spends all of his CMPs on purchasing access to Tier 1. As a result, his character has a great deal of power, but is a normal human in terms of his attributes:

Steven Strange: Human Wizard 3/Cleric of Agammoto 3/Mystic Theurge 4

Strength: 10
Dexterity: 8
Constitution: 10
Intelligence: 18
Wisdom: 16
Charisma: 15

Steven may very well be the most powerful member of his party, though he seems downright human next to a Half-Dragon Barbarian that can buff his Strength to 33 without any external help...


Example 2: A Versatile Ninja
Bob Kane is creating a character for a level 4 campaign that focuses on fighting crime in a once marvelous, but now failing city. Bobs previous character, a Factotum, gave him a lot of options...but Bob feels that his new character should be a bit more streamlined, more closely geared towards evasion and combat.

Bob rolls his stats, earning a 16, 14, 12, 17, 13, 15

With all that in mind, Bob decides that the Ninja is just the right thing for him. Nothing on Tier 3 interests him much, so Bob spends 5 CMPs and sets his Maximum Tier to 4.

Keeping the Ninjas Dual Stat requirement of Wisdom and Dexterity, Bob assigns his base stats:

Str: 13
Dex: 17
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 15

Bob now has 7 CMPs to play with. He immediately decides that Dexterity should be a priority, and Spends 3 CMPs to bump his dexterity to 20. When his DM inquires as to the nearly supernatural dexterity, Bob responds that his character was raised by circus folk to be a master gymnast.

With his remaining 4 CMPs, Bob decides that he needs to get a few pesky feats out of the way. He spends 2 CMPs to purchase 3 feats, gaining: Weapon Finesse, Acrobat, and Able Learner. The DM arches his eyebrow at Able Learner, but Bob quickly explains that his character was adopted by a wealthy vigilante after his circus was massacred by raiders. The vigilante provided Bob's character with the best tutors to train his eventual replacement.

With 2 CMPs left, Bob decides that his character should be well equipped for crime-fighting, seeing as he is heir to a fortune. The remainder of Bob's CMPs go towards purchasing 4000 gp worth of equipment (plus the standard WBL).

Bob's end result is:

**** Grayson: Human Ninja 4

Strength: 13
Dexterity: 21 (+1 by level/+3 CMPs)
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 15

Feats: Weapon Finesse, Able Learner, Acrobat, Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Deflect Arrows

+9500 gp worth of equipment.

more coming...

wayfare
2011-02-07, 01:51 PM
Thoughts, criticism, concerns -- feel free to post them!

Mando Knight
2011-02-07, 01:52 PM
This should go here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15).

Waker
2011-02-07, 02:12 PM
3 CMPs grant the character limited healing ability. This functions similarly to the paladins lay on hands ability, save that it can only be used upon the character. The character can restore (Constitution Modifier x Level) health points to himself eachday.
I would suggest the amount is (Constitution Modifier X Hit Dice). It's a small change, but would be applicable to a character using a savage progression for a monstrous race.

I would also think the CMP for buying attributes may be better off being exchanged at a rate of 1.5. I haven't taken the time to crunch the numbers, but a 1:1 exchange just seems really weak to me.

The use of CMP to buy extra skill points might be useful as well.

Chess435
2011-02-07, 02:23 PM
1 CMP grants (Level x 500) gp worth of equipment

Why don't you just go 10% WBL? It seems more balanced for higher level characters. To prevent low-level characters from getting the short end of the stick, state that level 1-3 characters get a flat 500 gp.

GoatToucher
2011-02-07, 02:58 PM
2 CMPs buying of an LA seems pretty low to me. A level for the equivalent (in this system) of 1000gp?

Hawk7915
2011-02-07, 03:02 PM
1 CMP buys access to one level 0 spell. This spell can be used an unlimited number of times each day.

I would recommend you strongly reconsider this, as it means that (out of combat) it's always better for a warrior type to buy access to Cure Minor Wounds at will then purchase the healing power; this can also be infinite Guidance pre-combat, or infinte Create Water to destroy many economies.

Waker
2011-02-07, 03:04 PM
I would recommend you strongly reconsider this, as it means that (out of combat) it's always better for a warrior type to buy access to Cure Minor Wounds at will then purchase the healing power; this can also be infinite Guidance pre-combat, or infinte Create Water to destroy many economies.
A more workable idea would be 1 + (Int, Wis or Cha mod)/day. At character creation you decide which stat determines your SLA.

wayfare
2011-02-07, 03:08 PM
A more workable idea would be 1 + (Int, Wis or Cha mod)/day. At character creation you decide which stat determines your SLA.

Thats probably much more workable. I'll make the changes.

Thanks for the input, guys -- keep it coming!

Waker
2011-02-07, 03:20 PM
A random though occured to me. Now this one isn't great, but has some applications, mostly for the lower tier characters (4 and higher).
For every 2 CMP spent, you get +1 hp per HD. Meaning that a hypothetical Fighter could spent 10 CMP to get +5 hp at each level. At character creation he would have (10 + 5 + Con) and at each level he would gain (1d10 + 5 + Con).
Once again, not amazing but it does help address the scaling of health/damage ratio that many upper level characters have to deal with. At higher levels monsters gain access to an increasingly larger strength modifier and number of attacks, while the melee combatants struggle to stay in the positives.

Chess435
2011-02-07, 03:27 PM
A random though occured to me. Now this one isn't great, but has some applications, mostly for the lower tier characters (4 and higher).
For every 2 CMP spent, you get +1 hp per HD. Meaning that a hypothetical Fighter could spent 10 CMP to get +5 hp at each level. At character creation he would have (10 + 5 + Con) and at each level he would gain (1d10 + 5 + Con).
Once again, not amazing but it does help address the scaling of health/damage ratio that many upper level characters have to deal with. At higher levels monsters gain access to an increasingly larger strength modifier and number of attacks, while the melee combatants struggle to stay in the positives.

Just spend the points to increase your CON score. :smalltongue:

Waker
2011-02-07, 03:30 PM
Just spend the points to increase your CON score.
Oh I know, I just threw the idea out there as a pitch. I could have said that for each 1 CMP you spend you get 1 hp, which is obviously more powerful, but I felt that I should work my way up to that.

wayfare
2011-02-08, 02:53 AM
Ok, made some edits:

Expanded "Advanced Options"

Included samples of use

Any questions or criticism is welcome!

wayfare
2011-02-08, 12:04 PM
I would suggest the amount is (Constitution Modifier X Hit Dice). It's a small change, but would be applicable to a character using a savage progression for a monstrous race.

I would also think the CMP for buying attributes may be better off being exchanged at a rate of 1.5. I haven't taken the time to crunch the numbers, but a 1:1 exchange just seems really weak to me.

The use of CMP to buy extra skill points might be useful as well.

1.5 for attributes might not be a bad idea, but I'd like to see some math for it.

Skill points were part of the original system, but the able learner feat gives you 5 skill points for 1 feat, so i thought it best to let that stand as the way to earn extra sp.

Would anyone be interested in trying this out as the basis for a campaign?

Aharon
2011-02-08, 12:15 PM
I agree that 2CMP for 1 LA is too little.

On the extreme end, I could play a Sharn Mystic Theurge and still have 2CMP left over.

Glimbur
2011-02-08, 12:30 PM
The system is different for characters starting at level 3 and reaching level 10 in game versus characters starting at level 10. Specifically, starting at 10 means you can get better spells or more gold for your CMP's. Because of how WBL scales I would not take any money via CMP's.

I am not sure how to fix this issue.

wayfare
2011-02-08, 12:31 PM
I agree that 2CMP for 1 LA is too little.

On the extreme end, I could play a Sharn Mystic Theurge and still have 2CMP left over.

You could? Using beguiler or warmage, right?

I've received this criticism multiple times, but haven't really known how to deal with it. LA seems to power up exponentially, so that many LA 3 races are damn near gods while LA 1 races have something like +2 to 2 stats and electricity resistance 5.

I think that increasing the cost based on the LA purchased might not be a bad idea, though. Does this work:

Buy off 1 LA: 2 points
Buy off 2 LA: 5 points
Buy off 3 LA: 8 points
Buy off 4 LA: 12 points

wayfare
2011-02-08, 12:39 PM
The system is different for characters starting at level 3 and reaching level 10 in game versus characters starting at level 10. Specifically, starting at 10 means you can get better spells or more gold for your CMP's. Because of how WBL scales I would not take any money via CMP's.

I am not sure how to fix this issue.

This is somewhat intentional -- wealth is probably the least useful expenditure of CMPs, but its there to give equipment-reliant characters better items for their level. A +2 Sword in the hands of a fighter means a lot at level 4.

An alternative would be to grant the character a steady income dependent upon their level, something like:

1 CMP = a steady income of (Level x 2) gp per month.

Gnaeus
2011-02-08, 12:40 PM
Example 2: A Versatile Ninja

Bob Kane is creating a character for a level 4 campaign that focuses on fighting crime in a once marvelous, but now failing city. Bobs previous character, a Factotum, gave him a lot of options...but Bob feels that his new character should be a bit more streamlined, more closely geared towards evasion and combat.
Bob's end result is:

**** Grayson: Human Ninja 4

Bob chose...poorly. Not only is ninja usually considered a tier 5, not 4, even at 4, he could have done much better. For example:
***** Grayson: Marrulurk Ninja 1.
CP:2 to buy off Marrulurk LA
4 for 6 extra feats. (Weapon Finesse, TWF, Darkstalker, Craven, +2 others)
1 for +1 dex

That is a MUCH MUCH higher set of attributes, for a vastly more powerful character.

Or assuming that Ninja is actually T5

Grayson: Pixie Ninja 4 (+Weapon Finesse, TWF, Darkstalker)

Do you really want to be dealing with permanently flying, greater invisibilitied ninjas doing sudden strike damage with each of their multiple attacks per round at level 4?


I think that the LA adjustment is by far the most powerful option for most levels of play, followed by feats.

Yes, tier 1s are awesome, especially at high levels, but at level 1, a Gravetouched Ghoul Dread Necromancer or a Half-Ogre Warblade is going to be devastating.


This is somewhat intentional -- wealth is probably the least useful expenditure of CMPs, but its there to give equipment-reliant characters better items for their level. A +2 Sword in the hands of a fighter means a lot at level 4..

For 4 points? No way. He would be better off taking 4 extra points of strength, which gives +2 to hit and damage with every weapon he uses. He would be MUCH better off as a Goliath with Power Attack, Bull Rush and Shock Trooper for free.

wayfare
2011-02-08, 12:56 PM
Example 2: A Versatile Ninja


Bob chose...poorly. Not only is ninja usually considered a tier 5, not 4, even at 4, he could have done much better. For example:
***** Grayson: Marrulurk Ninja 1.
CP:2 to buy off Marrulurk LA
4 for 6 extra feats. (Weapon Finesse, TWF, Darkstalker, Craven, +2 others)
1 for +1 dex

That is a MUCH MUCH higher set of attributes, for a vastly more powerful character.

Or assuming that Ninja is actually T5

Grayson: Pixie Ninja 4 (+Weapon Finesse, TWF, Darkstalker)

Do you really want to be dealing with permanently flying, greater invisibilitied ninjas doing sudden strike damage with each of their multiple attacks per round at level 4?


I think that the LA adjustment is by far the most powerful option for most levels of play, followed by feats.

Yes, tier 1s are awesome, especially at high levels, but at level 1, a Gravetouched Ghoul Dread Necromancer or a Half-Ogre Warblade is going to be devastating.



For 4 points? No way. He would be better off taking 4 extra points of strength, which gives +2 to hit and damage with every weapon he uses. He would be MUCH better off as a Goliath with Power Attack, Bull Rush and Shock Trooper for free.

I am amused at the thought of nightwing as a pixie. You have made my day.

Do you think the gold bonus should be taken out entirely, or modified something like this:

Level 1-3: (Level x 500 gp)
Level 4-6: (Level x 750 gp)
Level 7-9: (Level x 1000 gp)
etc.

Also, i recently suggested a modification for LA -- does it do the job?

Hawk7915
2011-02-08, 01:20 PM
It's looking like you really ought to get rid of the LA buyoff rule. Even avoiding the most broken examples and disallowing template buyoff, an exotic race is at least always a better deal than a straight statistic boost:

- Most spellcasters and rogue types will gain more from Tiefling than they would by just buying +2 Int or +2 Dex.
- Most Paladins and divine casters will gain more by buying Aasimar than buying +2 Wis or +2 Cha.
- Any dex-loving class gains more by just being a Hobgoblin.
- Any strength-based class gains more by just buying Goliath.

LeshLush
2011-02-08, 01:26 PM
Because the disparity between the tiers starts low and grows as characters level, I wouldn't give out all CMPs at the beginning of character creation. Let characters from lower tiers gain access to their CMPs gradually as they level up.

Gnaeus
2011-02-08, 01:46 PM
I am amused at the thought of nightwing as a pixie. You have made my day.

Do you think the gold bonus should be taken out entirely, or modified something like this:

Level 1-3: (Level x 500 gp)
Level 4-6: (Level x 750 gp)
Level 7-9: (Level x 1000 gp)
etc.

Also, i recently suggested a modification for LA -- does it do the job?

_________
I think that increasing the cost based on the LA purchased might not be a bad idea, though. Does this work:

Buy off 1 LA: 2 points
Buy off 2 LA: 5 points
Buy off 3 LA: 8 points
Buy off 4 LA: 12 points
[/QUOTE]


It is a lot better. Instead of Half Ogre Warblades, you get Goliath Warblades & 1/2 ogre Barbarians. More likely, what you might see is people buying off the first level of an LA race, if that is legal. (Gravetouched ghoul (which is an LA+2 template, with 1 level buyoff) Dread Necromancer 3 instead of Human DN 4, for example)

The 4 LA option is unlikely to see much use. No amount of LA fixes the fact that you are a commoner.

The 3 LA option is still a much better option for tier 5s than stat buys. A fighter could spend 8 points for Str +8, or 8 points for half dragon, getting Str+8, +4 NA, +2 Con, Int, Cha, and some other nice toys.

NichG
2011-02-08, 02:07 PM
One problem I see is that people could use the 'PrCs are tierless' thing to break this and be an effective Tier 1 with 12 CMP.

For instance, take some Tier 6 initial class, go until you can take the Chameleon PrC, take ten levels of Chameleon and be a spellcaster level 20 Wizard and Cleric on top of whatever you started with.

Edit:

For relative balance between the various expenditures, I think the LA buyoff is fine and should probably be the meter stick to determine the rest. Tier 1s are very potent, so it takes a good boost to catch others up. I would spread these out across levels, because the gap between Tier 1 and other tiers also widens across levels, so you want this to be used to pace people.

I'd make it 2 ability points per CMP, which is potent, but not versatile (the main issue with Tier 1s vs other tiers) - maybe with a max of 6 points to any stat if someone potentially becoming a natural Str 40 monk bothers you. The feats are fine as is.

Maybe allow CMP to be spent to boost BAB up to a max of full BAB?

I'd ditch the gold thing, unless you want to make it so CMP spent there represent a gold source that scales with level (perhaps a character with CMP spent there earns an extra 5% of his WBL per game per point from his external holdings?)

Also, I think the Lv0 SLA is fine. Infinite out of combat healing isn't that hard to get anyhow, and practically infinite out of combat healing is the equivalent of a goldpiece bonus.

Cyrion
2011-02-08, 02:21 PM
2) Each player begins play with 12 CMPs, which they can spend on a multitude of features. The 1st use of CMPs is to determine the Maximum Tier Access the character gains.
Maximum Tier Access means exactly that -- once you purchase access to a tier, you can ever gain access to the classes in tiers above what you purchased.

Tier 1: 12 points (all your build points)
Tier 2: 10 Points
Tier 3: 8 Points
Tier 4: 5 points
Tier 5: 2 Points
Tier 6: Free

(Snip)

A character who spends 8 CMPs to purchase access to Tier 3 classes is limited in the classes he can take levels in -- he can never gain levels in Tier 1 or Tier 2 classes. Thus, this character could play a Beguiler 7/Rogue 7/Spellthief 6 but NOT Rogue 17/Wizard 3.



Wouldn't this just reinforce the power gap between tiers? No option you present for other uses of CMPs even comes close to the versatility and utility of a class's worth of options, particularly for the better tiers. This would prejudicially pummell anyone who doesn't spend the points for Tier 1 or 2.

Note that this isn't an argument for everyone always including a Tier 1 class in their builds. However, if you limit the ability to climb this particular "social ladder" you're needlessly imposing obstacles.

I think that a better way to balance this would be to award CMPs at every level, with lower tiers getting more points, so that if you take a level in Wizard you may not get any CMPs, but if you take a level in Rogue you get 6 (or however many, depending on how fast you want the power advancement for that particular campaign).

Last Laugh
2011-02-08, 02:56 PM
One problem I see is that people could use the 'PrCs are tierless' thing to break this and be an effective Tier 1 with 12 CMP.

For instance, take some Tier 6 initial class, go until you can take the Chameleon PrC, take ten levels of Chameleon and be a spellcaster level 20 Wizard and Cleric on top of whatever you started with.

I'm not fully understanding how level 10 chameleon is the same as level 20 wizard, Are there shenanigans involved?

randomhero00
2011-02-08, 03:00 PM
Not to pop your bubble, but heh, we already do that CP (character points). With a huge binder full of options.

edit: meant to the OP. Also, don't ever buff leadership. Ever.

Last Laugh
2011-02-08, 03:27 PM
Not to pop your bubble, but heh, we already do that CP (character points). With a huge binder full of options.

edit: meant to the OP. Also, don't ever buff leadership. Ever.

What things do you use that aren't listed? Any glaring balance issues given previous experience?

wayfare
2011-02-08, 03:29 PM
Wouldn't this just reinforce the power gap between tiers? No option you present for other uses of CMPs even comes close to the versatility and utility of a class's worth of options, particularly for the better tiers. This would prejudicially pummell anyone who doesn't spend the points for Tier 1 or 2.

Note that this isn't an argument for everyone always including a Tier 1 class in their builds. However, if you limit the ability to climb this particular "social ladder" you're needlessly imposing obstacles.

I think that a better way to balance this would be to award CMPs at every level, with lower tiers getting more points, so that if you take a level in Wizard you may not get any CMPs, but if you take a level in Rogue you get 6 (or however many, depending on how fast you want the power advancement for that particular campaign).

As per your 1st point, if you want access to all tiers, just use all your CMPs for maximum versatility.

The CMPs are most useful for eliminating things like "Feat Tax" -- if you want to build your Uber-Charger fighter or barbarian, it is much easier to attain the feats you need by expending CMPs.

CMPs won't give each class the ability to cast spells or otherwise gain the useful features that make the tier 1 classes so powerful. What they do is make it easier to establish the potent builds for your own class or favored build. This is also why the system does not account for Prestige Classes -- you can gain spellcasting through PrCs if you really want it, and thus gain the ability to shift tiers.

You idea for CMPs/level intrigues me. I might work something like it out.

NichG
2011-02-08, 03:31 PM
I'm not fully understanding how level 10 chameleon is the same as level 20 wizard, Are there shenanigans involved?

Chameleons get to pick a class to mimic each day. In the class they mimic, they have an effective spellcaster level (including spell progression) equal to twice their level in the Chameleon PrC. It's just straight out of the class, no weird combos or anything. Even better, near the end of the PrC they get to emulate two classes simultaneously.

The entire class is shenanigans.

Edit: Rereading it now, there is a bit of a limiting factor since their spell progression is bard-like, so they never get to 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells. You might be able to get around this with clever use of secondary prestige classes that advance casting, I guess?

Darwin
2011-02-08, 03:32 PM
One problem I see is that people could use the 'PrCs are tierless' thing to break this and be an effective Tier 1 with 12 CMP.

For instance, take some Tier 6 initial class, go until you can take the Chameleon PrC, take ten levels of Chameleon and be a spellcaster level 20 Wizard and Cleric on top of whatever you started with.

Edit:

For relative balance between the various expenditures, I think the LA buyoff is fine and should probably be the meter stick to determine the rest. Tier 1s are very potent, so it takes a good boost to catch others up. I would spread these out across levels, because the gap between Tier 1 and other tiers also widens across levels, so you want this to be used to pace people.

I'd make it 2 ability points per CMP, which is potent, but not versatile (the main issue with Tier 1s vs other tiers) - maybe with a max of 6 points to any stat if someone potentially becoming a natural Str 40 monk bothers you. The feats are fine as is.

Maybe allow CMP to be spent to boost BAB up to a max of full BAB?

I'd ditch the gold thing, unless you want to make it so CMP spent there represent a gold source that scales with level (perhaps a character with CMP spent there earns an extra 5% of his WBL per game per point from his external holdings?)

Also, I think the Lv0 SLA is fine. Infinite out of combat healing isn't that hard to get anyhow, and practically infinite out of combat healing is the equivalent of a goldpiece bonus.

Naturally, you'd consider the prestige classes with equivalent abilities to that of a T1 class to be a T1 class itself. Any prestige class who gets 9th level arcane or divine casting should have to be unlocked with 12 CMP just like Wizard and Cleric would.

Gnaeus
2011-02-08, 03:49 PM
Edit: Rereading it now, there is a bit of a limiting factor since their spell progression is bard-like, so they never get to 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells. You might be able to get around this with clever use of secondary prestige classes that advance casting, I guess?

They have more problems than that. They also have very few spells known/day in their higher level spell slots compared with a full caster (balanced somewhat by the fact that they can take spells at the lowest available caster level). Chameleon, in my opinion, is not above tier 3.

Ur-Priest, on the other hand, is 10 levels of Tier 1 goodness. (well, evilness)

Telonius
2011-02-08, 04:04 PM
While this does provide a helpful little boost to non-Tier-1 classes, it still has the same theoretical issue that separates the casters from everybody else: power scaling.

Most of the bonuses you've given are one-time, static bumps to power. The closest thing to a scaling benefit that the CMP's can give is the ability to get rid of level adjustment. (EDIT: Also the HD*Con healing bump). The classes start out with the non-casters on a bit better footing, but then the casters and Tier 1's pull away at the same rate as before. The end result is a bit less ridiculous, and in that it's good; but it doesn't address the root problem.

wayfare
2011-02-08, 04:29 PM
While this does provide a helpful little boost to non-Tier-1 classes, it still has the same theoretical issue that separates the casters from everybody else: power scaling.

Most of the bonuses you've given are one-time, static bumps to power. The closest thing to a scaling benefit that the CMP's can give is the ability to get rid of level adjustment. (EDIT: Also the HD*Con healing bump). The classes start out with the non-casters on a bit better footing, but then the casters and Tier 1's pull away at the same rate as before. The end result is a bit less ridiculous, and in that it's good; but it doesn't address the root problem.

Very true. The title is perhaps deceptive -- this is just a way of granting lower tier classes a bet of a "leg-up." More of a band-aid than anything.

I've pitched this to a few friends, and the results have been favorable so far. It reminds them a bit of shadowrun.

Are there any other features I could add under Advanced Options?

Would things like access to certain class features (evasion, smite, turn undead, mettle, and the like) allow for a bit too much freedom, or would it suit the system?

Tyndmyr
2011-02-08, 05:31 PM
It would make me actually select warmage as an option. I'm seeing some beautiful builds here, with 7 build points remaining. Feats, delicious feats are going to be the main thing purchased. We drop a single point into leadership so we can afford to have a tier 1 minion with levels, yknow, as a backup. Starting at level one. The other six points grant us NINE feats. Oh god, I can taste the metamagic already. This character is like unto a little god.

I don't think that all PrCs should be based off casting, though. I think you need a seperate scale for the various PrCs, since they vary pretty strongly in power. Especially if you consider the power level varies greatly depending on entry class in many cases. Ignoring PrCs entirely is probably the best solution, although still imperfect(Ur priest, other accelerated casting classes).

BobVosh
2011-02-08, 05:52 PM
I can see the bard PrC with 9th level spells being a popular choice.

Siosilvar
2011-02-08, 05:57 PM
We drop a single point into leadership so we can afford to have a tier 1 minion with levels, yknow, as a backup. Starting at level one.

I'm a little unsure as to how you're planning on getting a character 2 levels lower than a level 1 character.

Vaynor
2011-02-08, 06:22 PM
The Red Towel: Thread moved to Homebrew.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-08, 06:40 PM
I'm a little unsure as to how you're planning on getting a character 2 levels lower than a level 1 character.


1 CMP increases the characters leadership score by 2. If the character has the leadership feat, this bonus is applied as an external modifier. If he does not hove the leadership feat, he has whatever leadership score this feature gives him. The character may never gain a leadership modifier exceeding twice his level.

Hmm. Yeah, you've got a text trumps table issue going on. The table says you can get a cohort with 2 leadership, but normally you won't have 2 leadership at level 1.

So, technically, I'll have to wait till level 3 to get my backup tier 1 buddy. However, thats still a pretty horrific combo. Assuming I survive a few levels solo(and with nine bonus feats, how could I not? If I wanted to add cheese, I could toss in Dragonwrought Kobold for epic feats), I'll have my own little strike team, with an accelerated gathering of followers.

I suppose technically epic leadership only requires leadership and a giant pile of charisma. So, a DK warmage could easily qualify in fairly short order. He's cha based anyhow, and he could be starting at 21 cha at level 1, no? I imagine a +4 enhancement bonus is quite easily accessible by level 9, at which point, he could grab epic leadership. If someone were inclined to stack leadership, this could be an entertaining path.

wayfare
2011-02-08, 06:58 PM
The intent with the leadership bonus was to allow classes that don't get pets to have a helpful cohort at low levels. I can see how this is getting a bit out of control, so are there any suggestions as to how I might include a helpful cohort without breaking the game into wee little pieces? :smalleek:

NineThePuma
2011-02-08, 07:21 PM
Wild Cohort Feat.

Realms of Chaos
2011-02-08, 08:58 PM
Instead of making options that allow for an uber-powerful character at level 1 (when tier 1 isn't that powerful), why not set things up so things are split up over more levels? For example:

Spend 2 Points: You gain a feat at each level that's a multiple of 2 rather than a multiple of 3.

You end up with 11 feats rather than 7 right there, a net gain of 4.

Spend 2 Points: At 4th level and every 4 levels afterwards, you may add a +1 bonus to a second ability score of your choice.

This is effectively a +5 bonus right there, even if it can't be used to pump a single stat to obscene proportions.

Spend 1 Point: Add a skill of your choice as a class skill. You gain an extra skill point at each level. You may select this modification twice.

By taking this a couple times, even a brainless fighter could use skills to get through some non-combat situations.

Spend 2 Points: At each level, you recieve (whether through luck, inheritance, contacts, blackmail, or so forth) 10% of your WBL in the form of currency.

More money gained over time may make this a decent proposition.

Spend X Points: You gain a bonus spell slot of each spell level that you possess access to, up to a maximum of Xth level spells.

This one is actually cheaper but more useful and well-rounded over all.

NineThePuma
2011-02-08, 10:08 PM
And I just made a samurai with it who can actually do something! =D

wayfare
2011-02-08, 10:16 PM
Instead of making options that allow for an uber-powerful character at level 1 (when tier 1 isn't that powerful), why not set things up so things are split up over more levels? For example:

Spend 2 Points: You gain a feat at each level that's a multiple of 2 rather than a multiple of 3.

You end up with 11 feats rather than 7 right there, a net gain of 4.

Spend 2 Points: At 4th level and every 4 levels afterwards, you may add a +1 bonus to a second ability score of your choice.

This is effectively a +5 bonus right there, even if it can't be used to pump a single stat to obscene proportions.

Spend 1 Point: Add a skill of your choice as a class skill. You gain an extra skill point at each level. You may select this modification twice.

By taking this a couple times, even a brainless fighter could use skills to get through some non-combat situations.

Spend 2 Points: At each level, you recieve (whether through luck, inheritance, contacts, blackmail, or so forth) 10% of your WBL in the form of currency.

More money gained over time may make this a decent proposition.

Spend X Points: You gain a bonus spell slot of each spell level that you possess access to, up to a maximum of Xth level spells.

This one is actually cheaper but more useful and well-rounded over all.

Its certainly worth considering. Though, to be honest, I'm not really trying to make "more powerful" builds as much as I'm trying to allow players to overcome the stat and feat limitations to create useful builds.

Still, I'll check out the math and see how it might be implemented.

Realms of Chaos
2011-02-08, 11:13 PM
Its certainly worth considering. Though, to be honest, I'm not really trying to make "more powerful" builds as much as I'm trying to allow players to overcome the stat and feat limitations to create useful builds.

Still, I'll check out the math and see how it might be implemented.

But...wait...what? :smallconfused:

Okay, now I'm a bit confused.

Edit: Okay, now I see. The thread title claims to balance the tiers and you're trying to balance the raw power to do whatever you want (high tiers) against a greater number of options available during character creation. I can see where you are coming from but there is something of an error built into your system.

In short, these fixes don't really work at low levels (especially for one-shot campaigns). Imagine a level 1 Warrior with 18 bonus feats. Imagine a level 1 warrior with 30 Strength. Imagine a level 1 Evolved Undeadx4 Gravetouched Ghoul Warrior. For that matter, try imagining any possible way that a level 1 warrior could spend their points that wouldn't seem completely insane. Most things that you could do with these options are pretty insane in general at low levels.
At level 1, a tier 5 ninja and tier 1 wizard are on equal ground. In fact, both of them could be slain rather easily by an average dog if they're unlucky. The fact that you're giving that level 1 ninja the exact same huge bonuses that you'd give a level 10 ninja means that it's going to be insanely overpowered at low levels.

I only suggested giving incremental bonuses as it keeps a player from being overpowered at 1st level and it allows the player to build their build as they level up rather than being handed half of the things that they need right away.

Zuljita
2011-02-09, 08:11 AM
I'm with RoC on this, you give a fighter all those bonuses and hes going to seem insane at lvl 1, since the power curve means that most teir 1's dont break the game till level 7 (?) ish. I also suggest that if you keep the LA buyoff in that you hold it till the characters could buy it off via unearthed arcana rules.

wayfare
2011-02-09, 11:35 AM
I'm with RoC on this, you give a fighter all those bonuses and hes going to seem insane at lvl 1, since the power curve means that most teir 1's dont break the game till level 7 (?) ish. I also suggest that if you keep the LA buyoff in that you hold it till the characters could buy it off via unearthed arcana rules.

I thought feat prereqs stopped many builds from becoming over-powered at level 1. Lightning Mace would be available at level 1 instead of level 2 to a human fighter, Leap Attack isn't accessable until level 5, I think some tripper builds are pretty easy to get at level 1-3 for a fighter...I'm not a master at featsmanship, but it seems that there are some checks built in to ensure that characters don't go overboard at level 1.

That said, I don't really think that a ton of feats is terribly over-powered. Consider a level 1 arcane spellcaster with color-spray. That caster will win most of your encounters at level 1 with that spell. I've seen it happen. Bonus feats make it easier for a combat character to be an uber-charger or whatever, which may in turn mean that he's going to kill many foes with 1 hit, but he will still only be doing that to 1 guy, as opposed to a whole room.

Honestly, many feats just give combat characters the ability to to what they should be able to to from level 1. I'm certain there are some exploits available, but I'm not certain that its as bad as you make out. Then again, I'm not a feat guy, really.

I suppose a better argument might be that its ok to build an ubercharger or a tripper or whatnot, but way over-powered to have a character who can do both (especially at level 1). Thats a bit more compelling to me, but once again, a comperable tier 1 will be putting down locks with every level -- why not help the little guy do it as well?

So, playgrounders, I put it to my betters -- using CMPs, what crazy feat builds can you create for a level 1 character?

paddyfool
2011-02-09, 11:57 AM
The problem is that part of the difference between Tiers is the exponential power progression of most Tier 1-3 classes, compared to the linear progression of Tier 4 and down.

I'd therefore suggest having more options to accelerate your progression with such a point-buying system, and less to change your level 1 abilities (when characters are a lot more equal anyway).

e.g.:


Rather than buy bonus feats, buy a faster feat progression (1st level and every 2nd rather than 1st and every 3rd, for 2 CMP, perhaps, or "bonus feats as fighter", also for 2 CMP).
Rather than buy better stats, buy a better stat progression (+1 at first and every 3rd rather than every 4th level for 2 CMP, perhaps).
Rather than buying a set amount of cantrips, buy "cast cantrips as a sorceror of your level" (better sorceror than wizard for this purpose, because of the fuss with spellbooks etc.). 1 CMP, perhaps.
Similarly, you could buy other class abilities which progress, such as "Sneak attack as Rogue", "Skirmish as Scout", "Favoured Enemies as Ranger", or even "Animal Companion as Druid". And if you are a Paladin or Ranger, you could have a cheaper cost to upgrade your Turn Undead or Animal Companion to the Cleric/Druid version. Cost individidually on an eyeballish way for 1 or 2 CMP each, banning options that would stack with themselves in a silly way (e.g. Sneak attack + Skirmish).
Rather than buying LA outright, buy a savage progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) in which you "level" for free up to the maximum every three levels or so, at a cost of 1 CMP per level.
Buying better skill point, save, BAB progressions etc. 1 or 2 CMP depending on the value of the individual purchase. This might get complicated with multiclassing...
Buying "Gestalt progression with classes of up to Tier X", where X cannot be a higher tier than your primary progression, and you can only be gestalted a maximum of once, at a cost of 7-X CMP (so 4 for tier 3, 3 for Tier 4 etc., with 1 and 2 being ruled out).


Overall, this system would give you the option of playing as, say:

A Tier 1 class, e.g. Wizard
A Tier 3 // Tier 3, e.g. Warblade (8 CMP)//Factotum (4 CMP)
A Tier 4 // Tier 5 with 5 CMP worth of additional goodies, e.g. Savage Progression Drow (2 CMP) Fighter//Rogue with a good Will save (1 CMP) and feats at 1st and every 2nd level (2 CMP).


EDIT: Cost suggestions and examples now included.

NichG
2011-02-09, 12:50 PM
So example weird feat builds that would mess with level 1 dynamics but be useless later on. Lets start with a simple moderately optimized wizard build on 32 point buy to compare with. To keep it simple, no Flaws in this one.

Mister Wizard (Conjuror 1, Necro and Enchant banned)
Human
7hp, AC (with Mage Armor) is 16/12/14
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 8
Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Cloudy Conjuration, Scribe Scroll (Class)
Abilities: Abrubt Jaunt

Spells: Mage Armor, Grease, Color Spray, Summon Monster I, Lesser Orb of X (purchased)

He can avoid 3 attacks a day, create noxious clouds with his summons, get a few helpers on the field, and provoke a DC 15 save on Grease. Not bad.

Now compare with a clearly underpowered feat build:

The Energizer Bunny (Human Monk 1 with +18 feats)
68hp
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8
AC 15/15/10 (19/15/14 with his scroll of Mage Armor cast on him)
Feats: Toughness x20

He isn't as potent as his wizard friend - he can't break the action economy or daze monsters (except for stunning fist) or whatever. But for a level 1 party, 68 hitpoints means he can basically stand there through any encounter that wouldn't oneshot everyone else and not drop. And thats just with Toughness.

wayfare
2011-02-09, 01:23 PM
So example weird feat builds that would mess with level 1 dynamics but be useless later on. Lets start with a simple moderately optimized wizard build on 32 point buy to compare with. To keep it simple, no Flaws in this one.

Mister Wizard (Conjuror 1, Necro and Enchant banned)
Human
7hp, AC (with Mage Armor) is 16/12/14
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 8
Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Cloudy Conjuration, Scribe Scroll (Class)
Abilities: Abrubt Jaunt

Spells: Mage Armor, Grease, Color Spray, Summon Monster I, Lesser Orb of X (purchased)

He can avoid 3 attacks a day, create noxious clouds with his summons, get a few helpers on the field, and provoke a DC 15 save on Grease. Not bad.

Now compare with a clearly underpowered feat build:

The Energizer Bunny (Human Monk 1 with +18 feats)
68hp
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8
AC 15/15/10 (19/15/14 with his scroll of Mage Armor cast on him)
Feats: Toughness x20

He isn't as potent as his wizard friend - he can't break the action economy or daze monsters (except for stunning fist) or whatever. But for a level 1 party, 68 hitpoints means he can basically stand there through any encounter that wouldn't oneshot everyone else and not drop. And thats just with Toughness.

Well, he'd be proper awsome for a while. Nice catch there, with toughness, though I think a DM would probably object at somepoint. Still, maybe a (you can only take the same feat x times) might be helpful.

Anything else?

Realms of Chaos
2011-02-09, 02:07 PM
Most of my examples would include feats that grow in power as you acquire more feats of the same type or that require a large number of feats to be useful as a limiting factor.

Think about abyssal heritor feats, draconic feats, certain psionic feats, aberrant feats, the devil's favor feat-line, meta-shadow feats, sudden metamagic feats, luck feats (though there are level pre-reqs on some), font of inspiration (to a lesser degree but still), a couple vile feats of note, incarnum feats, and so forth. Also consider feats that can be taken limitless times such as the aforementioned toughness and/or open-minded (5 skill points per pop). Consider the possibility of loading up on feats typically restricted to level 1 characters (the type which tend to have a bit more oomph). Consider a character who imitates several other forms of magic through hidden talent, shape soulmeld, bind vestige (and the two feats that follow it), Martial Study, and Martial stance. Consider that a character may load up on Domain feats to gain multiple uses without turning capability.

Feats are a pretty big thing. That's why flaws are considered so powerful.

Going back to level adjustment, allowing any feat short of vampire is a pretty dangerous thing to do. Using your system, a tier 3 class could start off as a ghost with no downside, a creature who is basically entirely indestructible at level 1 unless fighting off against only other mages. The possibility of a phrenic, half-fey Beguiler sounds equally crazy.

Increasing the progression of growth rather than simply giving a large boost to begin with helps the players of low-tier classes out when they really need help and prevents this problem at low levels.

On the topic of level 1 wizards, take a moment to consider what you're saying. You seem to be convinced that wizards are overpowered at level 1 because they might have color spray and might prepare it multiple times. To remedy this problem, you are giving bonuses to both Sorcerers and Beguilers, classes that are better than the wizard at spamming color spray due to spontaneous casting and more spells per day. Do you see a bit of a logical flaw here? :smallconfused:

paddyfool
2011-02-09, 02:17 PM
Any thoughts on my riff on this rather good idea a couple of posts up? I've tarted it up slightly now...

EDIT: Although I suppose I should acknowledge that I now realise that I've been influenced slightly by Fantasy Craft's system in making this suggestion. (If you don't know it, look it up.)

wayfare
2011-02-09, 03:29 PM
Any thoughts on my riff on this rather good idea a couple of posts up? I've tarted it up slightly now...

EDIT: Although I suppose I should acknowledge that I now realise that I've been influenced slightly by Fantasy Craft's system in making this suggestion. (If you don't know it, look it up.)

I'm not opposed to it, I've done something similar in an Aberrant-esque d20 game a few years back. I think it works a bit better as a "build a character" sort of thing, kinda like GURPS or Exalted -- pick the features you like and run with it.

@RoC: Ok, you've convinced me. <flips back a few posts>

Hmmm...how about something like this:

Every time you gain a level in a certain tier of class, you gain some CMPs;

Tier 1 or 2: 0 CMPs
Tier 3 or 4: 1 CMPs
Tier 5 or 6: 2 CMPs

Of course, the exchange ratio would have to be a bit different, but I'm up for suggestions.

/edit/

After some crunching, I'm thinking:

2 CMPs = a feat
3 or 4 CMPs = an attribute
Spell Slot = (1 Cmp +1 CMP/spell level)

wayfare
2011-02-09, 05:01 PM
I'm not opposed to it, I've done something similar in an Aberrant-esque d20 game a few years back. I think it works a bit better as a "build a character" sort of thing, kinda like GURPS or Exalted -- pick the features you like and run with it.

@RoC: Ok, you've convinced me. <flips back a few posts>

Hmmm...how about something like this:

Every time you gain a level in a certain tier of class, you gain some CMPs;

Tier 1 or 2: 0 CMPs
Tier 3 or 4: 1 CMPs
Tier 5 or 6: 2 CMPs

Of course, the exchange ratio would have to be a bit different, but I'm up for suggestions.

/edit/

After some crunching, I'm thinking:

2 CMPs = a feat
3 or 4 CMPs = an attribute
Spell Slot = (1 Cmp +1 CMP/spell level)

/edit again/

After still more crunching, I'm thinking

3 CMPs = a feat
5 CMPs = an attribute

Zaakar
2011-02-10, 08:37 AM
3 CMPs = a feat
5 CMPs = an attribute
Rather 2 CMPs per attribute. Feats are stronger in my experiance.


Every time you gain a level in a certain tier of class, you gain some CMPs;

Tier 1 or 2: 0 CMPs
Tier 3 or 4: 1 CMPs
Tier 5 or 6: 2 CMPs
What about PrCs? I liked it alot better before, why fix something that wasn't broken?

What RoC suggested in his first post makes alot of sense to me. I'd use that and then add more nice options like the (maybe slightly expensive) lay-on-hands thing.

wayfare
2011-02-10, 01:10 PM
Rather 2 CMPs per attribute. Feats are stronger in my experiance.

What about PrCs? I liked it alot better before, why fix something that wasn't broken?

What RoC suggested in his first post makes alot of sense to me. I'd use that and then add more nice options like the (maybe slightly expensive) lay-on-hands thing.

I've been fiddling with a few of the ideas presented here, and RoC's is pretty promising. I'm trying to math it out so that tier 2 classes cant net a significant bonus out of those 2 remaining CMPs.

Zaakar
2011-02-10, 01:21 PM
I think it's okay that the tier 2's get a noticable bonus compared to the tier one's - as long as the bonus for the lower tiers is significantly higher :smallsmile:

Realms of Chaos
2011-02-10, 02:05 PM
What I'd suggest you do about the tiers is align it as so that tier 1 and 2 both use all of the points (as, honestly, tier 2 classes never end up needing any real boost in practice), raise the total amount of points, and make it so that weaker tiers gain exponentially more points to spend as they need help in much, much larger ways. For example, consider the following 16-point system.

Tier 1/Tier 2: 16 points (all)
Tier 3: 14 Points
Tier 4: 10 points
Tier 5: 6 Points
Tier 6: Free

Combining that with benefits that work as you level up would allow even a normal warrior to stand relatively loud and proud in an average party.

wayfare
2011-02-10, 03:50 PM
A few questions;

1) There is a feat that grants skill access, right? Should that stack with the ability to give yourself class skills (1 CMP as above from RoC's model).

2) Allowing character to buy bonus HP -- should this be allowed?

3) How about something that allows you to increase your SP/level, up to a maximum of 8 + int sp/level (rogues and such would gain no benefit)

4) Would granting a second feat every level you would normally gain a feat, be acceptable, or would it be too much?

5) I want to allow CMPs to enhance animal companions...how should that work?

6) Also, as for granting cohorts, i was thinking something like:

You can spend CMPs to gain a cohort. The base cost is

2 CMPs: You gain a cohort of any tier 6 class.
3 CMPs: You gain a cohort of any tier 5 class.
5 CMPs: You gain a cohort of any tier 4 class.

You gain a cohort at level 5. Your cohort is 3 levels below your own, and may never exceed this limitation.

hmmm...seems clunky. Help?

Zuljita
2011-02-11, 07:50 AM
not sure about your other comments there, but i think that the issue with buying HP is that IMO they are too difficult to price... and you have already made a number of ways of getting HP available (toughness, extra con).
I think doubling feats may be too much.

Dante & Vergil
2011-02-11, 07:48 PM
There is a tier system for PrC's here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0).
Carry on.

Hawk7915
2011-02-12, 04:13 PM
It's a fuzzy distinction, but what if the LA only bought of racial LA, and could not buy off LA from a template? It also never ignores racial hit die which you'd need to suck up as normal. In other words it is only useful to play a Goliath or a Drow or a Hobgoblin.

I'm sure there's still broken, broken stuff you can do but it prohibits being an Evolved x4 Grave-touched Ghoul Samurai, or a Feral Stony Half-minotaur Water Orc Barbarian, or a Half-celestial Aasimar Paladin. Or do you all think that such template stacking is required for the intended goal (making Tier 5 and 6 stack up against Tier 1 and 2)?

randomhero00
2011-03-23, 11:55 AM
What things do you use that aren't listed? Any glaring balance issues given previous experience?

Sorry, missed that.

The glaring balance issues so far have been the +X to a stat or regen. And getting super high AC early on (even a wizard unbuffed). And finally saves. One could really max their saves.

So make sure everything is sort of tier oriented. Like you can only buy a +1 to an attribute per 6 levels. Same for AC and saves.

The current way we're about to experiment with it is you pick one "path" and go down that. No backsies. So for instance, say youre a druid, you pick druid mastery. ALL your items automatically transfer/work with you in wildshape. In addition you get natural spell for free. (we obviously play high powered games).

Another one, is for a rogue-assassin type ability. Once per day you can auto hit and auto sneak attack for double damage. '

Sorcerers get double the spells known amount.

Any martial can choose +40 movespeed and pounce. (these all have names but I forget). As well as power attacking without error (no -to hit) but its limited on the amount you can PA for, like pathfinder.

Bards can auto play any instrument/song/poem into anyone within 60 feet as a free action, inside their head like telepathy, only for music. They also get a few key spells added in to their spell table.

etc.

So far its pretty interesting. Nice fun way to shake up the game.

So far one of my favorite (and balanced) abilities is a sniper ability. You get +5 to stealth. After you aim for 1 round. (any dmg interupts or movement.) You auto crit. It finally makes pure snipers worthwhile. Only accounts for a single attack though.

Demidos
2011-03-23, 08:51 PM
It's a fuzzy distinction, but what if the LA only bought of racial LA, and could not buy off LA from a template? It also never ignores racial hit die which you'd need to suck up as normal. In other words it is only useful to play a Goliath or a Drow or a Hobgoblin.

I'm sure there's still broken, broken stuff you can do but it prohibits being an Evolved x4 Grave-touched Ghoul Samurai, or a Feral Stony Half-minotaur Water Orc Barbarian, or a Half-celestial Aasimar Paladin. Or do you all think that such template stacking is required for the intended goal (making Tier 5 and 6 stack up against Tier 1 and 2)?

+1, though personally id ditch the entire level adjustment thing, cause its much better to get a giant amount of stats bonuses and stuff (ehem half-minotaur) than a +2 to one score:smallwink:

invinible
2011-03-25, 01:57 AM
I'm doing a thought experiment with this set-up.

Taking the race Human and the class Samurai (which costs nothing to take by this system) than spending the 12 saved to get 18 bonus feats.

With the 20 feats (1 from being Human, 1 from character creation process itself, and 18 from the 12 CMPs spend), I get these feats:

Born Psionic (Dungeons and Dragons Wiki)
Natural Skill (Dungeons and Dragons Wiki)
Ur-Soul (Dungeons and Dragons Wiki)
Academy Graduate (The Savage Tide Adventure Path)
Abused Child (D&D Wiki)
Amphibious (D&D Wiki)
Brutish (D&D Wiki)
Child of the Sea (D&D Wiki)
Extra Training (D&D Wiki)
Glamorous (D&D Wiki)
Intuit (D&D Wiki)
Ithan (D&D Wiki)
Knowledgeable (D&D Wiki)
Natural Alchemist (D&D Wiki)
Natural Immunity (D&D Wiki)
Nimble (D&D Wiki)
Politician (D&D Wiki)
Studier (D&D Wiki)
Superior Build (D&D Wiki)
Word of Truth (D&D Wiki)